Jimquisition: Used Games Have A Right To Exist

sir.rutthed

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HQ stream isn't working. Please fix. I seem to have this problem every week with the Jimquisition.
 

Epona

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How can you people argue that the game industry NEEDS money and used games are taking that NEEDED money when seeing the kind of profits EA makes (other big publishers are making nice profits too I'd wager).

I mean really, the car companies needed help from the government but even they aren't complaining about used car sales but this spoiled industry does it nonstop while growing bigger and bigger and you people defend it. How can you do it with a straight face?
 

Epona

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phreakdb said:
i find it hilarious that everyone is so willing to wave around first sale doctrine, and yet..... they don't take into account that it doesn't guarantee services attached to the product. It's called a matchmaking service for that reason.

What a bunch of ill informed cretins. Noone is telling you to 'subsidize' EA games. Funny thing is, you are saying 'subsidize my want for games, by dropping the whole legal grey area question'. First Sale Doctrine in relation to video game has yet to be ruled on. Hell, on any form of computer software.

As for GameStop's practices? they are crappy, and I will be glad for the day that they go belly up. That way I no longer have to subsidize their practice of selling used to morons who can't tell that they are gladly ripping themselves off by dealing with GameStop.
Did you actually read the thread?

No one has said that online passes violated the First Sale Doctrine, we just think online passes are stupid and greedy but they have every legal right to impose fees for online play, it will only hurt them in the end.

First Sale Doctrine allows resale of video games until ruled otherwise. The First Sale Doctrine is inclusive, not exclusive.

Hey buddy let me ask you something. If I buy Super Mario Galaxy II from Gamestop for $34.99 (minus 10%) and you buy it from Wal Mart for $49.99, who got ripped off?
 

phreakdb

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Crono1973 said:
phreakdb said:
i find it hilarious that everyone is so willing to wave around first sale doctrine, and yet..... they don't take into account that it doesn't guarantee services attached to the product. It's called a matchmaking service for that reason.

What a bunch of ill informed cretins. Noone is telling you to 'subsidize' EA games. Funny thing is, you are saying 'subsidize my want for games, by dropping the whole legal grey area question'. First Sale Doctrine in relation to video game has yet to be ruled on. Hell, on any form of computer software.

As for GameStop's practices? they are crappy, and I will be glad for the day that they go belly up. That way I no longer have to subsidize their practice of selling used to morons who can't tell that they are gladly ripping themselves off by dealing with GameStop.
Did you actually read the thread?

No one has said that online passes violated the First Sale Doctrine, we just think online passes are stupid and greedy but they have every legal right to impose fees for online play, it will only hurt them in the end.

First Sale Doctrine allows resale of video games until ruled otherwise. The First Sale Doctrine is inclusive, not exclusive.

Hey buddy let me ask you something. If I buy Super Mario Galaxy II from Gamestop for $34.99 (minus 10%) and you buy it from Wal Mart for $49.99, who got ripped off?
Firstly, I got done playing Super Mario games circa 1991 or so. Secondly, I can be sure that if I buy a game new, I am getting a fresh (hopefully) undamaged product. Thirdly, I can be sure it's not stolen property. Fourthly, I can return my broken new game to Wally world, and exchange it for an equally mint copy. Fifthly, I can be sure that I contributed something to a series of games I find enjoyable (considering I generally only play games that have been proven to be worth it, or that I have played before and personally enjoyed, OR have been recommended by a friend or have been reviewed very well by someone who is actually more worried about a game's quality than whatever little bit of money they can get from a studio for saying it is good). Sixthly, I know my monetary contribution made it into the right 'corporate fatcat' pocket that it belonged in.

All of that taken into consideration, I will reiterate, that I myself am an Independent IT Consultant/Troubleshooter with a very small and loyal client base. While I can hardly afford the time to play a game, those I do play, I research thoroughly, and they all generally fall into simulations/strategy games, and i have probably 3 I have installed and play at any one time (One of my constants is Masters of Orion 2/Galactic Civilizations, another is Civilization series).

Furthermore, I play PC games. You get more out of your money in the way of 'oooooh shiny-flashy'. I mean, assassin's creed on pc vs console is just so much more eye candy (though the gameplay got dull halfway through). I find also that PC games have better support and patches for free. I also don't have a problem with overpriced games, and i can find all of my good old games that i like to play through... good old games. :p

Ok. so I rambled. Anyway, the core thing is, I know my money went where it was supposed to go, and I also know that when I buy new from wal-mart, it is guaranteed new.
 

Rad Party God

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Piracy my ass. Used games are FAR from being illegal and it's simply stupid to think otherwise.
 

Epona

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phreakdb said:
Crono1973 said:
phreakdb said:
i find it hilarious that everyone is so willing to wave around first sale doctrine, and yet..... they don't take into account that it doesn't guarantee services attached to the product. It's called a matchmaking service for that reason.

What a bunch of ill informed cretins. Noone is telling you to 'subsidize' EA games. Funny thing is, you are saying 'subsidize my want for games, by dropping the whole legal grey area question'. First Sale Doctrine in relation to video game has yet to be ruled on. Hell, on any form of computer software.

As for GameStop's practices? they are crappy, and I will be glad for the day that they go belly up. That way I no longer have to subsidize their practice of selling used to morons who can't tell that they are gladly ripping themselves off by dealing with GameStop.
Did you actually read the thread?

No one has said that online passes violated the First Sale Doctrine, we just think online passes are stupid and greedy but they have every legal right to impose fees for online play, it will only hurt them in the end.

First Sale Doctrine allows resale of video games until ruled otherwise. The First Sale Doctrine is inclusive, not exclusive.

Hey buddy let me ask you something. If I buy Super Mario Galaxy II from Gamestop for $34.99 (minus 10%) and you buy it from Wal Mart for $49.99, who got ripped off?
Firstly, I got done playing Super Mario games circa 1991 or so. Secondly, I can be sure that if I buy a game new, I am getting a fresh (hopefully) undamaged product. Thirdly, I can be sure it's not stolen property. Fourthly, I can return my broken new game to Wally world, and exchange it for an equally mint copy. Fifthly, I can be sure that I contributed something to a series of games I find enjoyable (considering I generally only play games that have been proven to be worth it, or that I have played before and personally enjoyed, OR have been recommended by a friend or have been reviewed very well by someone who is actually more worried about a game's quality than whatever little bit of money they can get from a studio for saying it is good). Sixthly, I know my monetary contribution made it into the right 'corporate fatcat' pocket that it belonged in.

All of that taken into consideration, I will reiterate, that I myself am an Independent IT Consultant/Troubleshooter with a very small and loyal client base. While I can hardly afford the time to play a game, those I do play, I research thoroughly, and they all generally fall into simulations/strategy games, and i have probably 3 I have installed and play at any one time (One of my constants is Masters of Orion 2/Galactic Civilizations, another is Civilization series).

Furthermore, I play PC games. You get more out of your money in the way of 'oooooh shiny-flashy'. I mean, assassin's creed on pc vs console is just so much more eye candy (though the gameplay got dull halfway through). I find also that PC games have better support and patches for free. I also don't have a problem with overpriced games, and i can find all of my good old games that i like to play through... good old games. :p

Ok. so I rambled. Anyway, the core thing is, I know my money went where it was supposed to go, and I also know that when I buy new from wal-mart, it is guaranteed new.
1) Irrelevant, Super Mario Galaxy was only an example.

2) True that, I buy new too when the packaging is important to me but it isn't always important to me.

3) This is really a concern for you? As long as you don't steal and you aren't buying it from a thief then that should be good enough for you.

4) You can return an unplayable game to Gamestop too. Even better, you can return a game to Gamestop for any reason in the first 7 days (I think it's 7 days) and get a full refund in the form of a store credit. Try that at Wal Mart. Take back Super Mario Galaxy II, tell them you don't like it and want Black Ops instead.

5) Fair enough but you could also do that by buying the DLC or the sequel on Day one. Happens all the time.

6) Fair enough but this goes back to 5.

Yeah I like PC games more too because of the faster loading times, better graphics and of course, the keyboard and mouse. You can't buy PC games used anymore and that is because those "fatcat" publishers have used DRM to fight the used market and won. They will do the same to the console market if people let them. I would encourage people not to let them.
 

Verlander

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sleeky01 said:
Verlander said:
I stopped watching this show after a couple of episodes, and thought I'd give it another shot. Wow. Talk about pandering to the stupid masses.

The whole argument here is "they did something bad, so they can't be upset when I do something that seems less bad from my perspective!!". What awful logic. By that train of thought, Josef Fritzl was forgiveable because Hitler was worse.

I feel cheated out of seven minutes of my life listening to an (for want of a better word) "argument" that any 12 year old could successfully obliterate. Thank God I gave up on this show so early on.
I presume you are going to want the additional 30 sec that you took to type this post back as well?
Nah, that was my gift to the public.

Seriously though, such shameless pandering to the whims of self-righteous kids, and people are falling for it!
 

Jakub324

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I fucking burst with all the truth that just got unloaded into me. He is so right, fuck you publishers!
 

SierraForever

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BgRdMchne said:
When I saw the Bullfrog logo, I got a little depressed. Then I thought of what EA did to Origin Systems and I cried a little.

On topic: This whole episode was irrelevant to me, as I'm mostly a PC gamer and the industry managed to shut down the used game market there a long time ago.

Also, where I'm from, it's an infraction to put money into someone else's parking meter. Big Bro gets more money from tickets than from the meters.
I feel your pain its just like what happened with Sierra when Vivendi/Activision took over :-(
 

anonymity88

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ImSkeletor said:
Thank you Jim for speaking the truth. It ticks me off that people say that I am as bad as people who PIRATE just because I LEGALLY sell my games and buy used games. Am I a bad person if I freaking sell my car to someone after I buy it?
Ford would say so. But I'm on your side!
 

pwnzerstick

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Mar 25, 2009
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The problem is that developers get screwed, which irks me, I don't give a fuck about the bottom line of the publishers. This is an idustry where a developer can make one bad game, or at even a decent one, but it has poor marketing, or comes out in a crowded release window, and just because of some stupid reason like that the developers lose a lot of money, and can often get shut down. One game can equal the death of a developer, and in the end that means less risk, less inovation, more grey and brown.
 
Sep 24, 2008
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Hitchmeister said:
Do more research. You buy a movie ticket and it turns out you don't like it, are you allowed to resell that? No you suck it up and learn to accept that there will be an occasional bomb, and try to learn to avoid them.
The only problem is that when you buy a ticket, you're buying * admittance*, not a copy of a movie. You're buying the privilege to see the movie just once.

When you're buying a copy of a game, you're buying just that. A COPY of a game. You don't own the game, not at all. But you own the copy. And it is your right and decision to so whatever with your possessions.

After all, Possession is 9/10's of the law :)

Anyway, to my point.

I want to ask everyone where does Intellectual Property end and begin? From how I understand it, and it's true I could be wrong, but when you buy a game, cd, book, or even some food with a special recipe that's copyrighted, you're buying an unit derived by the Intellectual Property. You paid money to have access to that unit to do as you wish.

I want to know what makes games so special that their inherent copyrights and IP issues are to be held over all others. Look up "what is IP" according to the United States government. Oh, no matter. I'll link ya.
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/ahrpa/opa/museum/1intell.htm

It is imagination made real. It is the ownership of dream, an idea, an improvement, an emotion that we can touch, see, hear, and feel. It is an asset just like your home, your car, or your bank account.

Just like other kinds of property, intellectual property needs to be protected from unauthorized use. There are four ways to protect different types of intellectual property:

PATENTS provide rights for up to 20 years for inventions in three broad categories:
Utility patents protect useful processes, machines, articles of manufacture, and compositions of matter. Some examples: fiber optics, computer hardware, medications.
Design patents guard the unauthorized use of new, original, and ornamental designs for articles of manufacture. The look of an athletic shoe, a bicycle helmet, the Star Wars characters are all protected by design patents.
Plant patents are the way we protect invented or discovered, asexually reproduced plant varieties. Hybrid tea roses, Silver Queen corn, Better Boy tomatoes are all types of plant patents.
TRADEMARKS protect words, names, symbols, sounds, or colors that distinguish goods and services. Trademarks, unlike patents, can be renewed forever as long as they are being used in business. The roar of the MGM lion, the pink of the Owens-Corning insulation, and the shape of a Coca-Cola bottle are familiar trademarks.
COPYRIGHTS protect works of authorship, such as writings, music, and works of art that have been tangibly expressed. The Library of Congress registers copyrights which last the life of the author plus 50 years. Gone With The Wind (the book and the film), Beatles recordings, and video games are all works that are copyrighted.

TRADE SECRETS are information that companies keep secret to give them an advantage over their competitors. The formula for Coca-Cola is the most famous trade secret.

If you are an intellectual property owner, you should protect your rights. If you are a user, you should respect them. It is just as wrong to steal intellectual property as it is to break into a home, steal a car, or rob a bank.

Now a few of you think that I might have stuck my foot in my mouth with linking that. Especially with the Copyrights there. But you're not reading carefully enough. It protect Authorship. A quick jaunt to dictionary.com, and one will see that Authorship deals with the source or origin of an idea.

So. Me selling a game I bought with legal tender to someone else for whatever reason... might seem not really cool.

Me selling a game that's already been established and saying that I own the rights to it and the characters are mine? That's a problem.

But again, I'm studying Engineering. You lawyers in the room will probably know better.
 

Inkidu

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Hitchmeister said:
Inkidu said:
Sometimes someone doesn't do enough research or it just doesn't turn out as advertised. So what? I should keep it forever?
Do more research. You buy a movie ticket and it turns out you don't like it, are you allowed to resell that? No you suck it up and learn to accept that there will be an occasional bomb, and try to learn to avoid them.
Really bad comparison. No I don't actually own the movie. I'm paying for the right to watch it.

Chiefly why this is a bad comparison though is it's grossly disproportionate. A movie is at most asking me to invest twelve bucks, and that's if it's 3D, for at most three hours of my time. A game is asking me to invest sixty bucks and anywhere from six to forty hours of my time. That's five times the cost and twice to ten times the time.

All the research in the world can only take you so far. Ideally it's supposed to keep you away from things you don't or may not like. However, when the game is good it's really irksome that it just doesn't mesh with you. It's not even that you buy a crappy game. Sometimes it's good, and it's just something you personally don't like. I mean I love science fiction but I hated Avatar which is generally touted as great. It got good reviews, but it still bored me to tears.
 

phreakdb

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Crono1973 said:
1) Irrelevant, Super Mario Galaxy was only an example.

2) True that, I buy new too when the packaging is important to me but it isn't always important to me.

3) This is really a concern for you? As long as you don't steal and you aren't buying it from a thief then that should be good enough for you.

4) You can return an unplayable game to Gamestop too. Even better, you can return a game to Gamestop for any reason in the first 7 days (I think it's 7 days) and get a full refund in the form of a store credit. Try that at Wal Mart. Take back Super Mario Galaxy II, tell them you don't like it and want Black Ops instead.

5) Fair enough but you could also do that by buying the DLC or the sequel on Day one. Happens all the time.

6) Fair enough but this goes back to 5.

Yeah I like PC games more too because of the faster loading times, better graphics and of course, the keyboard and mouse. You can't buy PC games used anymore and that is because those "fatcat" publishers have used DRM to fight the used market and won. They will do the same to the console market if people let them. I would encourage people not to let them.
I just realized something. It struck me like a bolt of lightning.

I was cruising through wal mart the other night, and I noticed that some of the games i saw in the 360/ps3 case for 50-60 bucks, were 30-40 for pc. For the same game. With better graphics and everything.

Maybe, the fact that DRM killed the used PC Games sector, allowed them to make the money they wanted. Now, I'm not saying that the price stuck for every game at that, but as the general rule, that's what it was.

Maybe, the lack of a used game market, as well as the lack of having to give everyone a cut off of the game's sale (console company, gamestop shelving fee, etc.) caused this phenomenon to occur?

I dunno. I think there is something there though.
 

Epona

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phreakdb said:
Crono1973 said:
1) Irrelevant, Super Mario Galaxy was only an example.

2) True that, I buy new too when the packaging is important to me but it isn't always important to me.

3) This is really a concern for you? As long as you don't steal and you aren't buying it from a thief then that should be good enough for you.

4) You can return an unplayable game to Gamestop too. Even better, you can return a game to Gamestop for any reason in the first 7 days (I think it's 7 days) and get a full refund in the form of a store credit. Try that at Wal Mart. Take back Super Mario Galaxy II, tell them you don't like it and want Black Ops instead.

5) Fair enough but you could also do that by buying the DLC or the sequel on Day one. Happens all the time.

6) Fair enough but this goes back to 5.

Yeah I like PC games more too because of the faster loading times, better graphics and of course, the keyboard and mouse. You can't buy PC games used anymore and that is because those "fatcat" publishers have used DRM to fight the used market and won. They will do the same to the console market if people let them. I would encourage people not to let them.
I just realized something. It struck me like a bolt of lightning.

I was cruising through wal mart the other night, and I noticed that some of the games i saw in the 360/ps3 case for 50-60 bucks, were 30-40 for pc. For the same game. With better graphics and everything.

Maybe, the fact that DRM killed the used PC Games sector, allowed them to make the money they wanted. Now, I'm not saying that the price stuck for every game at that, but as the general rule, that's what it was.

Maybe, the lack of a used game market, as well as the lack of having to give everyone a cut off of the game's sale (console company, gamestop shelving fee, etc.) caused this phenomenon to occur?

I dunno. I think there is something there though.
- Maybe because there are no license fees to pay on PC like there is with the big three.

- Maybe because they sell more copies on consoles which keeps the prices higher (supply and demand).

- Maybe because the DRM has made consumers weary of buying physical copies and many would just prefer to get it on Steam without the securom.

BTW, in my local Wal Mart they have only WoW, Sims 3 and the million expansions and spins offs, Portal 2 and all the cheap jewel case $10 games and it's been that way for weeks. The PC section is neglected while the console games are well stocked and protected behind glass. Seems to me that Wal Mart certainly places more value on console games, probably because they sell better and I'll bet the used market has alot to do with it. After all, if you don't like it you can recover some of your money, especially in the first few weeks after release.
 

Ashley Blalock

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Okay if I buy a brand new book release read the book in 3 days and then sell that book to a used book store I'm a horrible evil person who is bringing about the death of printed books.

If I buy a new toaster and keep it long enough before selling it then I'm not an evil person who is dooming the toaster industry.

So what is this magical cut off date on games? I'm I putting developers and publishers out of business if I sell a game a month later? Six months later? A year later? Do I have to keep the game forever even though the publisher stopped making new copies and has moved on to a sequel of the game?
 

Epona

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Ashley Blalock said:
Okay if I buy a brand new book release read the book in 3 days and then sell that book to a used book store I'm a horrible evil person who is bringing about the death of printed books.

If I buy a new toaster and keep it long enough before selling it then I'm not an evil person who is dooming the toaster industry.

So what is this magical cut off date on games? I'm I putting developers and publishers out of business if I sell a game a month later? Six months later? A year later? Do I have to keep the game forever even though the publisher stopped making new copies and has moved on to a sequel of the game?
The game industry thinks it's special and many gamers will disregard your examples saying "they aren't the same as games" because those examples are devastating to their argument. It's the internet equivalent of them putting their fingers in their ears, dancing around and singing "can't hear you, can't hear you".
 

notimeforlulz

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Damn. All these times I was trading in games because they sucked, or because the company did something anti-competitive that was an annoyance to me (Battlefield3 I'm looking at you), I was completely wasting my time; as it wasn't doing them any damage. Looks like I'll have to do my protests through uploading ISO's then.