Jimquisition: Xbox One No DRM Emergency Special!

Jimothy Sterling

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Aardvaarkman said:
Jimothy Sterling said:
They were trying to take step five before they took steps one, two, three, and four. Consoles need to do a lot more to justify moving toward a near-all digital format. They don't get to suddenly move into it without providing a lot more of what PC provides customers first.
Jim, it's sad to see you perpetuating this misuse of the word "digital."

How are any of the games we have used in the last three decades been anything but "all-digital"? The very basis of computing and video games is digital. Those games you buy on a disc? Those are all-digital. There is no analog component. The only non-digital computer games were obscure experiments in the 50s and 60s.

It's incredibly bizarre that people somehow think that only downloaded games are "digital" but games on a disc aren't. Remember the whole deal about Compact Discs? It was revolutionary because it was digital audio (and still is), compared to magnetic tape and phonographs. We've been living in a digital world for a long time. It's strange that people somehow confuse distribution models with fundamental technologies. I thought you would have known better than to buy into this nonsense, Jim.
Welcome to the evolution of language.
 

-Dragmire-

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Mar 29, 2011
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A3sir said:
Posted this in a thread earlier, holds relevance here too

I have been loyal to MS for my whole computing life, always had windows, always had Xbox, hell I even defended the Zune. I said no. It still comes with the kinect at $100 which I don't want, you can no longer share games online and the fact that they lied, "you cannot just flip a switch, it's core to the system" and then just flipped the switch is too suspicious for me to trust them. And the whole "Patch 1.1: Re-adds all DRM" is too much of a possibility. The PS4 is simply a more powerful system for ~3/4 of the price.

They just need a balance. They are going from one extreme to the other.

Sell a system with and without the kinect. People without it just can't use the kinect commands. Most cross platform games aren't going to have the kinect commands as they will have to write it in specifically for XB1 versions of the game, so even if they do make a kinect friendly version, you will still be able to play without using kinect commands. I also have no problem pressing a button as opposed to saying "XBOX ON" and random people wont be able to walk into the room and yell "throw grenade, quicksave" and run off.

Make the system HAVE to check in every 24 hours if you want to share your games. Sure, if you don't check in, lock the game from your family list, just don't stop them being played in offline mode on the console they are installed on. Or in other words, no check in to play offline on your console, check in for sharing and "family library" play. Yes, it is that simple.

As for trade ins, the selling disks, no selling digital is how it is now and there is no way around that unless they allow us to package up bought games and allow us to gift them to people. I could see this having the 30 day friends restriction ON DIGITAL COPIES ONLY and I would be fine with it. To stop people installing and then selling the game and still play offline, when installing the game via CD, don't install everything, leave one part that boots the game stay on the disk so to play disk based games, you either a- have to have an online connection, which will boot the game or b- insert the disk and the game will boot off the disk then run from the machine. Having a physical copy of my disk is a small price to pay to be able to play when I visit family without internet connections or when I go away.
These also perfectly represent my feelings.



I don't think region locking will come back though. Imagine blacking out entire countries via region locking post release, my god that would be a suicidal move.


The rest of the drm might come back but bringing back region lock would be (I can't believe I'm saying this) too stupid for Microsoft.
 

mdqp

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Aardvaarkman said:
That's not what "monopoly" means. Yes, Xbone games will only work with the Xbone. But if the Xbone doesn't have a controlling position in the video game market, that isn't a monopoly.

On the other side of the coin, Kindle readers being available on multiple platforms does not mean that Amazon doesn't have a monopoly. Quite the contrary - if Amazon has a controlling position in eBooks, then it has a monopoly, even if its software is available on all platforms. In fact, having the software on all platforms could actually be considered even more monopolistic, if the main source of eBooks is Amazon, to the detriment of other suppliers.
Well, you know what I meant, though. Basically, all digital sales would have to pass through their systems, and no competition would be found there.

On the other hand, there are a LOT of different websites which sell e-books, and having a controlling position isn't a monopoly either, strictly speaking (Steam has a dominant role in the PC digital market, but it isn't a monopoly, and Amazon doesn't have a monopoly either). The different retailers competing with each other mean a lot, when it comes to actually get better deals for the consumers, because even those who hold the biggest share of the market will keep offering good prices, in order to keep their position. A real monopoly would probably see terrible prices attached with it.
 

thepyrethatburns

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weirdsoup said:
Sorry to pop the jubilation bubble, but this is not a victory. This is Microsoft at their money grubbing, self-interest serving best.

I fully expect this whole ugly saga to raise it's head once enough people have bought Xbones because they think that MS has backed down. Then like some video game version of the Borg, these Xbones will awaken and enslave us. Or at least remove our ability to trade in games and turn off the Kinnect.
Quite possible. The reason that Sony got away with their massive security fail/dumping Linux is because it happened after they had their install base well established. A few Youtube reaction videos aside, most people didn't toss their PS3 in the garbage over that.

The same thing could happen here. Microsoft waits a couple years for their install base to be established THEN switches it back on knowing that most people aren't going to dump their XBone and their accumulated games.

This strikes me more as a tactical retreat than a victory.
 

ImmortalDrifter

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People forgive Sony for the Hack. They forgive Sony for screwing linux. They forgive Sony for hounding modders. They forgive Sony for the "status symbol" comment. They forgive Sony for the update bricking peoples' consoles.

Microsoft pulls a reversal on their DRM. No one forgives them.

Ah, what a glorious day of fanboyism have we.

Captcha: Filthy dirty mess... Poignant.
 

cridia

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PatrickXD said:
I'm really disappointed with the reversal of opinion. What made the Xbone interesting to me - the always online connectivity, family sharing and mandatory Kinect - has been somewhat put down. I was looking forward to what exactly 'cloud computing' can do, I was interested in more games adopting systems like Dark Souls and Demon's Souls. You know, integrating the single and multiplayer experience? Game developers can no longer guarantee that every user has access to the internet, which could have been an interesting point to develop from. Now, well, we'll never know.
And that's what hurts about this. What the Xbone was doing was unprecedented. Don't get me wrong, I know that doesn't mean good, inherently. It's just, and bear with me here, nobody has to buy the Xbox One. The PS4 was always an option, and a cheaper one at that. If you don't have an internet connection, you have the option of - no, not the xbox 360 - the PS4. It's there. It's a choice. A safe choice. It's not changing anything. The Xbone? Previously we didn't know if it would be a safe choice. We didn't know if it was what we wanted. It certainly wasn't a rich dark roast. And that's what we want, isn't it? We all want a rich dark roast. We all sing together that we know what we want and what we want is a rich dark roast.

The Xbone could have been a game changer. Microsoft has decided now to go where the money is, abandon it's backbone and chase after every ounce of hype and every last dollar. And now we will never know, at least not for another 8 years, if the Xbone's original system is in fact a great one.

For posterity, I wholly support being able to just, you know, give people discs.

EDIT: I just thought I'd point out something that really irks me about this whole Xbone situation, as I feel it represents the gaming industry and culture as a whole.
People complain, day in and day out, about the lack of change in games. The repetition of the exact same systems and stories from past generations of game. And yet, when Microsoft tried something new with a console, everyone cried 'What's wrong with the way things are? Can't everything just be the same? Everything is fine here, we don't need change!'.
Food for thought.
First of all; with the many titles going multiplatform, there is no way that they would code it for a feature one console has and another one doesn't. Sure, maybe in the start to get things going when the ideas are still fresh (and they have a definite need to stand out), but once the generation starts running, say goodbye to those features. Second of all; online is already here to stay. Whether you have an always online or just a console with the capability to work online doesn't change this fact. Did the optional online stop developers from cramming multiplayer into pretty much everyone of their franchises? Did optional online stop games like the ones you named (Dark Souls and Demon Souls) stop from being made? Nope, it didn't. In other words; there would have been no added advantage to make the console always online for a multitude of factors, the biggest one being that online is already popular enough as it is.

As for the other features, sure, we could argue that the family system was a great one. However, and even though we shall never know the truth now, I honestly doubt that Microsoft would actually enable 9 people from your family to just borrow your shared games without any questions asked. Keep in mind that this is the same company that was giving the publishers the ability to lock out used games in an industry where everyone is crying foul of used games. You honestly think those publishers would suddenly be so altruistic ass to give away no less than 9 licenses (even if it is your family) of games they could have sold at full price to them? I highly doubt it. I would sooner suspect that that family sharing would have come with high restrictions, like putting a timer on the game (making it a glorified demo) or whatnot.

The problem with the Xbone was that for every step it went forward, it took 10 steps back. For everything we had to look forward to, there were a gazillion hoops we would have to jump through just to get there; that's not even to mention that they were deliberatly alienating half of their consumer base (keep in mind, while everyone would want to have good internet, it is not a given that everyone will) and going so faar as to have region locks that would potentially lock you out on a per country basis. That's NOT progress.

I am all for innovation and I do not mind a console with nothing but digital content. However, the way Microsoft was going was exactly as Jim said earlier; the "death of ownership." And that's not the way you want to introduce an all-digital landscape. Plus, with all the things they were limiting from the get-go, there is a good chance those limitations would negatively influence anythin positive they said they were adding to the console (refer to my point in regards to family sharing earlier). If they want to set up a good online space, first they will need to set up a consumer space that would emulate that of the current situation, which includes but is not limited to the ability to sell your own bloody property (and yes, I do think that Steam should do something like that as well before I consider it a valid alternative to gaming consoles).

In the end, people likely voted with their wallets. I am pretty sure that the reason for their backpeddaling was that they were taking hits in pre-orders. I for one, am rather glad it happened.
 

Rebel_Raven

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ImmortalDrifter said:
People forgive Sony for the Hack. They forgive Sony for screwing linux. They forgive Sony for hounding modders. They forgive Sony for the "status symbol" comment. They forgive Sony for the update bricking peoples' consoles.

Microsoft pulls a reversal on their DRM. No one forgives them.

Ah, what a glorious day of fanboyism have we.

Captcha: Filthy dirty mess... Poignant.
While I'm by no means a "fanboy" the fact Microsoft decided to horrible horrible things to the economy with the DRM, killing used game sales, and the fact they've proven rather greedy in their refusal to lower digital game prices ever, well, these factors and more kinda played a part in the fact we don't trust them anymore. Further, if we didn't say anything, or did anything about it, then as far as we know, these heavy handed restrictions would have been PERMENANT. Across ALL Xbones. A massive middle finger to many countries, our own country, and the consumer.
And the whole thing about using a 360 if you have a crap connection as opposed to a xbone? The 360's support's going to dry up. That much is inevitable.
The military would get screwed, charities would have been screwed over, there's no telling how many people would be OUT OF A JOB in game retails over this.
Further, they yoinked a feature they could have contended with in the sharing/lending they were planning on doing.

A "bricking" can get repaired, a hack can be fixed (and no system is hackproof), modding/hacking isn't right (and microsoft goes after people for the same thing), these things are temporary.
The hacking was out of sony's hands.
Going after the modding/hacking is necessary for the sanctity of our gaming experiences, and Sony, on the same frikking day it seems, pulled the patch before it could do more damage. I didn't get patched despite auto update and I heard about the patch after the patch got released, and pulled.

Honestly, I don't know about this status symbol thing, and I don't know about the screwing of linux, though.

If you don't like the way I explained things, maybe Angry Joe might be more pallatable?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcXdWRJ-xb4
 

Mosstromo

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Awesome.
Jim, I have been warned by the moderators because I post too briefly and not "discuss" the topic at hand, but screw it, all I want to say is: Man, you really make me laugh. You have a gift.
 

Aardvaarkman

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Jul 14, 2011
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Jimothy Sterling said:
Welcome to the evolution of language.
I think you mean "devolution."

"Digital" was a perfectly useful word until it started getting abused like this. It actually meant something. Can you please explain to me how games on disc are not "digital"? And what makes downloaded games entitled to a special "digital" class just because of how they are distributed?

Evolution of language is fine when it it helps us make more refined or meaningful distinctions, but this use just muddies the waters and doesn't help anybody make meaningful statements.

P.S: Misusing "digital" in this way just plays into the hands of the spin-doctors and rapacious publishing companies you dislike. It allows them to spin something old as new again. I thought you were a fan of plain and frank speech, not misleading double-speak. Call things what they are.
 

Aardvaarkman

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Jul 14, 2011
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mdqp said:
Well, you know what I meant, though. Basically, all digital sales would have to pass through their systems, and no competition would be found there.
But you specifically cited the Kindle as an example of something which is not a monopoly. But all Kindle book sales flow through Amazon. So how does that make Amazon not a monopoly by this logic?
 

masticina

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Mmm the power of money,

Aka pre-order sales we're a bit down we'ren't they. Oh they we're done compared to that OTHER console out there.

Of course they still can re-activate their DRM later.. or in next generation. Of course..

[captcha: this is sparta] Yes it is captcha
 

LordMonty

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This has done terrible PR damage to microsoft and I don't think they realised till this week how much. Frankly its out of touch twats that brought this upon us and thank Sony for having the balls to stand up for us mild as it was all of this has left me uneasy with what Microsoft will do next to make up for whatever this is gonig to cost them and whose going to trust them to do the right thing there?

Also you still need to go online once with the xboxone to make it work offline right? so the ball-ache isn't entirely behind us.

I'll go PS4 at some point if i can afford it amid other things all the while being as always 90% a PC gamer, I will never get the xbone80 as I don't think trust is something i can give microsoft easily.
 

Lightknight

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Nov 26, 2008
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Aardvaarkman said:
Jimothy Sterling said:
Welcome to the evolution of language.
I think you mean "devolution."

"Digital" was a perfectly useful word until it started getting abused like this. It actually meant something. Can you please explain to me how games on disc are not "digital"? And what makes downloaded games entitled to a special "digital" class just because of how they are distributed?

Evolution of language is fine when it it helps us make more refined or meaningful distinctions, but this use just muddies the waters and doesn't help anybody make meaningful statements.

P.S: Misusing "digital" in this way just plays into the hands of the spin-doctors and rapacious publishing companies you dislike. It allows them to spin something old as new again. I thought you were a fan of plain and frank speech, not misleading double-speak. Call things what they are.
Yes, when words we thought we'd fully gotten to know evolve and change, the World can be a scary place. Whenever I get hit hard with such an occurance I usually spend the next weekend on the front porch yelling at children to get off my lawn even if they're not on it (fortunately, my property extends to halfway into the road so I'm often technically correct).

Joking aside, broadening or specifying the use of a term through context is a way that terminology naturally matures. The idea that a physical disk includes a digital copy of the game is besides the point with the context clearly contrasting a digital downloaded copy vs a copy contained on an easily and physically transportable disk. One is digitally downloaded, the other is physically transported. Nevermind that it was digitally burned into a disk. It's the way it gets to the customer morseo than the format the media is in. Language is not stable. Language drifts.
 

mdqp

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Aardvaarkman said:
But you specifically cited the Kindle as an example of something which is not a monopoly. But all Kindle book sales flow through Amazon. So how does that make Amazon not a monopoly by this logic?
AFAIK you can buy ebooks for the kindle on any other digital platform out there:

http://askville.amazon.com/download-books-sources-Kindle/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=9710470

I must admit I don't own one, so correct me if I am wrong.
 

Aardvaarkman

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Jul 14, 2011
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Lightknight said:
Joking aside, broadening or specifying the use of a term through context is a way that terminology naturally matures. The idea that a physical disk includes a digital copy of the game is besides the point with the context clearly contrasting a digital downloaded copy vs a copy contained on an easily and physically transportable disk. One is digitally downloaded, the other is physically transported. Nevermind that it was digitally burned into a disk. It's the way it gets to the customer morseo than the format the media is in. Language is not stable. Language drifts.
Yeah, but we already have useful words for that, such as "downloaded" or online." Thee's also the fact that downloaded games are also physically transported, so that's not a useful distinction. Electrons physically exist, even though you might not be able to see them or pick one up.
 

Aardvaarkman

I am the one who eats ants!
Jul 14, 2011
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mdqp said:
AFAIK you can buy ebooks for the kindle on any other digital platform out there:

http://askville.amazon.com/download-books-sources-Kindle/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=9710470

I must admit I don't own one, so correct me if I am wrong.
You can only buy Kindle books from Amazon. Kindle support some other formats, but certainly not all (for example Apple or Sony or Barnes & Noble ebooks won't work with Kindle).
 

Lightknight

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Aardvaarkman said:
Yeah, but we already have useful words for that, such as "downloaded" or online." Thee's also the fact that downloaded games are also physically transported, so that's not a useful distinction. Electrons physically exist, even though you might not be able to see them or pick one up.
There's no harm with synonyms. Just because there's already a word for something doesn't mean we can't use more.

I'm not sure how electrons, a physical particle, relate. Are you just mentioning because it's incredibly small? I'm not 100% on how that relates to the topic. Digital is a format in which the information is stored. It's more-so a method of arrangement than an actual thing and so inherently intangible. It's like saying "the written language" or wire recorded audio. Digital information is often physically arranged pits on a disk. On a hard drive, information is stored by the polarity of electrons on the disk. Just FYI, there's little difference between a CD's storage format and braille, but there's a significant difference between hard drive storage and typical physical storage formats. I'm not making a point with that, it's just something to think about.

Digital is a simple and concise way to convey the point he had and so it was apt. Considering the wealth of context supporting the intended use of the term I'd say our discussion of it is somewhat unwarranted.