JK Rowling's new book - A detective novel about a trans serial killer murdering women

crimson5pheonix

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So is the joke that no one likes Harry Potter, or that every political group can find something they find offensive, wholly separate from the other groups? I've seen that cross pattern meme before, but I was never able to tell if its serious or joking.
The joke is that centrists don't understand politics and only know Harry Potter, so they should read another book.

The political chart format is a meme comparing what people on the left/right authoritarian/libertarian axes think. So yes, the specific group here is that everyone agrees, no matter your political alignment, that centrists should read another fucking book.
 

Gordon_4

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I didn't read it, but mostly because "Wizard School" didn't appeal to me. I eventually saw the movies and found them ok(but I was in my 30s when I saw them).

Though like 90% of things that take place in school don't appeal to me either. Beastars was the last "School" thing that I enjoyed but honestly you'd be forgiven for thinking that school was basically a Drama club.

As for the OP,

Wasn't that the plot of Silence of the Lambs or am I remembering that wrong? Didn't Buffalo bill have some wierd, creepy "lady suit" thing going on along with his gender identity issues? It's been a long time since I've seen it and I didn't read the book.

It does sound rather tone deaf regardless.
It is and it isn’t. There’s a scene in the novel for Silence where the FBI agent heading the case is at a doctor’s office that specialises in what we would now call gender dysphoria asking for names and the doctor says he won’t give him that information because a) medical ethics and b) the people he treats suffer enough discrimination as it is. However the FBI agent explains they want names of people who were rejected because they didn’t fit the criteria. Buffalo Bill isn’t trans, he’s fucking crazy with a specific pathological fixation.

I don’t remember if that scene made it into the movie though.
 

Casual Shinji

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I haven't read the book, so Im legit curious - is the killer citing being trans as the reason they're a killer? As in if they said "I am a trans woman" they expect everyone to know that means they're a serial killer? Or is being trans just an aspect of their personality, not necessarily connected with the killings? In the same way liking Chipotle over Qudoba is a personality trait, but not one associated with serial killers.
Like is the killer expressing their trans identity through killing women, or do they just happen to be trans, in the same way they could just happen to be brown haired, or a red head or blonde.

and I guess I don't see the connection between like Buffalo Bill or Norman Bates and trans culture. Buffalo Bill skinned people alive and Norman Bates was clinically insane and heard voices. How does that correlate to trans culture? Isn't the idea of saying its a representation of trans culture inviting the comparison, cart before the horse way? Watching Buffalo Bill torture women and then saying "That's offensive, we're not all like that." kinda implies a connection or identification with Bill. I would have thought people didn't need to qualify they're not similar to a villain, fictional or otherwise. The only time you need to qualify your actions are different from another is when there is a chance the actions could be seen as similar in intent or action. And if the other person is a serial killer/rapists/torturer, I was under the impression most people did no actions anywhere in the same region of overlap or misunderstanding.
All the examples I gave are of characters where them being trans or cross-dressing is depicted as creepy and not quite right. Them being trans or cross-dressing is an extension of how crazy they are. They don't just happen to be trans or cross-dressers, it's a deliberate choice to make the audience feel uncomfortable. With Buffalo Bill the movie wants to have its cake and eat it, by saying 'yeah, he wants to be a woman, but he's not actually trans'. Buffalo Bill killing people isn't the harmful connection, him dressing up as a woman and it being framed in a similar creepy light as when he's killing is the harmful connection. Seriously, look at any of those scenes and tell me they aren't framed as 'Eek, look at that guy trying to be a woman'. As a matter of fact, name me any movie from the 80's or 90's with trans characters or cross-dressers that aren't meant for the audience to either laught at, be disgusted or freaked out by.

The connection is there, just as the connection is there between American movie villains and them having a foreign accent. Sure, just because they have a foreign accent doesn't mean the movie thinks all British, Russians, or Germans are villains, but they sure sound that much more threatening and conniving. Sure, the movie might not say all cross-dressers are serial killers, but they sure do come across that much more unstable and freakish.

And no, that's not me saying these movies are therefor bad and not worthy of praise, but they do have these problems and they need to be adressed. Breakfast at Tiffany's had a very harmful depiction of a Japanese character, that I'm sure wasn't the movie claiming all Japanese people are like that, but it certainly used it for an easy laugh.
 

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SilentPony

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I dunno, I guess I never saw Buffalo Bill wearing another person's skin and went 'Eek, a tranny!' so much as 'Eek, someone who skins other people and wears their skin!'. I feel like alot of people are missing both the forest and the trees and are somewhere else. They're villains. They're not supposed to be progressive, likable, nice, and you're not supposed to identify with them outside the most basic 'Im a human, he's a human' way. I was under the impression trans people didn't view themselves as having skinned and worn the skin of another individual. The fact Buffalo Bill wore a woman's skin wasn't the disturbing part, so much as the whole skinning someone part. If he was just wearing a latex woman costume, you'd be like okay yeah that's a weird thing to do. But it wasn't a costume, it was skin from his victims. I feel like that's the part that gets lost in translation when the trans community gets involved.
If he was meant to be a representation of the trans community, than I have really misunderstood what trans people identify as.
 

Gordon_4

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I dunno, I guess I never saw Buffalo Bill wearing another person's skin and went 'Eek, a tranny!' so much as 'Eek, someone who skins other people and wears their skin!'. I feel like alot of people are missing both the forest and the trees and are somewhere else. They're villains. They're not supposed to be progressive, likable, nice, and you're not supposed to identify with them outside the most basic 'Im a human, he's a human' way. I was under the impression trans people didn't view themselves as having skinned and worn the skin of another individual. The fact Buffalo Bill wore a woman's skin wasn't the disturbing part, so much as the whole skinning someone part. If he was just wearing a latex woman costume, you'd be like okay yeah that's a weird thing to do. But it wasn't a costume, it was skin from his victims. I feel like that's the part that gets lost in translation when the trans community gets involved.
If he was meant to be a representation of the trans community, than I have really misunderstood what trans people identify as.
I think it’s more that the Trans community have been fictional whipping boys, as it were, for a long ass time in this kind of lurid, “true crime” airport novel industry.
 
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Casual Shinji

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I dunno, I guess I never saw Buffalo Bill wearing another person's skin and went 'Eek, a tranny!' so much as 'Eek, someone who skins other people and wears their skin!'. I feel like alot of people are missing both the forest and the trees and are somewhere else. They're villains. They're not supposed to be progressive, likable, nice, and you're not supposed to identify with them outside the most basic 'Im a human, he's a human' way. I was under the impression trans people didn't view themselves as having skinned and worn the skin of another individual. The fact Buffalo Bill wore a woman's skin wasn't the disturbing part, so much as the whole skinning someone part. If he was just wearing a latex woman costume, you'd be like okay yeah that's a weird thing to do. But it wasn't a costume, it was skin from his victims. I feel like that's the part that gets lost in translation when the trans community gets involved.
If he was meant to be a representation of the trans community, than I have really misunderstood what trans people identify as.
Again, it's not the movie claiming this is how all trans people are, it's the movie using Bill trying to look like a woman as a creep factor. The actual skin part is also only the wig, the rest is him putting on make-up, and tucking his junk between his legs, and then dancing around. All of which is framed to make him look disturbed. And the trans community doesn't identify with or feel like they should identify with Bill, but they will probably think 'Oh look, another fictional character who is trans AND creepy/disgusting/ridiculous.'
 

SilentPony

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I think it’s more that the Trans community have been fictional whipping boys, as it were, for a long ass time in this kind of lurid, “true crime” airport novel industry.
No no, I get that. But I think my hiccup is that the trans community is drawing a parallel between themselves and psychotic serial killers and saying its an offensive representation of themselves. And outside the trans community no one viewed Buffalo Bill or Norman Gates as supposed to be a trans individual. I don't think anyone saw either of them wearing skin or their mom's clothing and thought it was a statement on trans persons any more than either of those killers eating a sandwich was a statement on sandwich eaters.
To me its the equivalent of saying Darth Vader is a negative stereotype of trans-African people because he's evil when he's black, but on the inside is a good white person. No one had made that connection before someone made it and then declared it offensive to think that way.
 
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Casual Shinji

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No no, I get that. But I think my hiccup is that the trans community is drawing a parallel between themselves and psychotic serial killers and saying its an offensive representation of themselves. And outside the trans community no one viewed Buffalo Bill or Norman Gates as supposed to be a trans individual. I don't think anyone saw either of them wearing skin or their mom's clothing and thought it was a statement on trans persons any more than either of those killers eating a sandwich was a statement on sandwich eaters.
First of all, that's a ridiculously bold claim to make, that no one outside the trans community made that connection. Also, if someone is completely unfamiliar with the trans community or what it means to be trans, movies like this automatically paint a very negative picture. One that is all too common.

Secondly, marginalized groups are obviously going to be more in touch with and vocal on how they are represented if that representation is generally negative or rare. Seeing as straight, white people have positive represention galore, very few will likely make too big a deal when someone who isn't straight and white isn't represented or represented too positively. Along with that comes that you're not always going to know what is considered offensive to a certain community when you're not part of that community.

And I would think that people who are trans generally know better what is offensive to them than people who aren't trans.
 

Houseman

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Secondly, marginalized groups are obviously going to be more in touch with and vocal on how they are represented if that representation is generally negative or rare. Seeing as straight, white people have positive represention galore, very few will likely make too big a deal when someone who isn't straight and white isn't represented or represented too positively. Along with that comes that you're not always going to know what is considered offensive to a certain community when you're not part of that community.
I wonder how much "positive representation" there needs to be before someone can make a trans villain* again. It seems like something that could be easily exploited.
Heck, people are still claiming "The first female _____ !" even when it's a total lie.



Also, an album:


*a villain who wears a pink coat and a wig while sitting in a car
 

Trunkage

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I wonder how much "positive representation" there needs to be before someone can make a trans villain* again. It seems like something that could be easily exploited.
Heck, people are still claiming "The first female _____ !" even when it's a total lie.



Also, an album:


*a villain who wears a pink coat and a wig while sitting in a car
I find it funny how trans is represented by directors as wearing pink.... Because having a vagina means you have go like pink. Transparent is a pretty bad show but Trambour wasn't wearing pink all the time
 

CM156

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All the conservatives who burned Harry Potter books back in the late-90s, early 2000s be like


So you're a celebrity who's been called out for having shitty opinions, do you:
A) Accept that you've hurt people, and learn to be a better person?
or
B) Double down in the most embarrassing way possible?
Regardless of the merits, B is more entertaining

Say what you will about Rowling, but she put her money where her mouth is. Metaphorically.

Let's see if this turns into a "buy the book to own the libs" moment.
 
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lil devils x

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...and how did the other house elves feel about that?
The Hogwarts castle House Elves were really well taken care of and protected from abuse so they did't want to go anywhere else because like everyone who lived at the castle said " There is no place like Hogwarts" so they loved their home too and were willing to give their lives to defend it. I mean it was amazing there so like anywhere else they could possibly go would be crappier, so they didn't want to be anywhere else. This is why they refused Hermione's attempts to free them and became angry at her " Free the Hogwarts House elves" propaganda, because they took it as an insult thinking that she was trying to make them leave. Hermione even tried to trick them into freeing themselves by leaving all those knitted items all over the Gryffindor common room hoping they would pick them up while cleaning so then the House Elves just refused to clean the common room. I think that Dobby just confused them because they didn't understand they would have the option to live there if they were not mandated to be there or that they could be forced to leave the castle later.
 

Tireseas

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*Looks at topic*

*reads comments*

*closes topic because I already had to deal with a shit load of anxiety today and I ain't dealing with this shit today.*
 
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Gordon_4

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I wonder how much "positive representation" there needs to be before someone can make a trans villain* again. It seems like something that could be easily exploited.
Heck, people are still claiming "The first female _____ !" even when it's a total lie.



Also, an album:


*a villain who wears a pink coat and a wig while sitting in a car
Trill are symbiotic life forms - Jadzia did not identify as male - she just shared their memories. Though that may have given her marriage to Worf some spice.

I will give you the TNG episode, as bone headed as some of the execution was that was a character whom wished to express and identity contrary to the one they currently had.
 
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Casual Shinji

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I wonder how much "positive representation" there needs to be before someone can make a trans villain* again. It seems like something that could be easily exploited.
Heck, people are still claiming "The first female _____ !" even when it's a total lie.



Also, an album:


*a villain who wears a pink coat and a wig while sitting in a car
You can make a trans villian any old day of the week, I ain't stopping anyone, but if they use them being trans as a way to make them seem more villainous then I'm probably going to speak out against it, yeah.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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It's like she's trying really hard to make people dislike her.

"There are so many pathetic things about JK Rowling's new "cis man in a dress commits crimes" detective novel, but one of the main ones has to be that this writer who considers herself a master of mystery really just recycled the plot of Ace Ventura."
Just to be clear

Transvestite =|= Transsexual
 

Terminal Blue

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I wonder how much "positive representation" there needs to be before someone can make a trans villain* again.
I mean, some would be nice.

But most stories with "trans representation" will only have a single token trans character, and even if that's not true there will likely only be one trans character who is actually significant to the story. If there's only one significant trans character, then that character shoulders the entire burden of representation. If in every single one of these stories the only way people can imagine that trans character is as a villain, then that says something quite unpleasant.

There's also the issue that a lot of trans villains play on negative stereotypes about trans people. The most common trans villain is in detective or crime stories, and they're usually unstable violent murderers acting out of some perverse or misguided sexual impulse. The implication is always that them being trans is a perversion, or a part of their disordered mind which drives them to be a murderer. Usually if they're portrayed in film, they're played by cis actors. Their appearance is often played for laughs or gross out factor, or they're shown as creepy and weird and disgusting.

Basically, if your definition of a trans villain is a creepy, predatory, sexually deranged monster who murders people, you're probably gonna get some pushback for that. Especially if that's the only significant trans character in your story.

Trill are symbiotic life forms - Jadzia did not identify as male - she just shared their memories. Though that may have given her marriage to Worf some spice.

I will give you the TNG episode, as bone headed as some of the execution was that was a character whom wished to express and identity contrary to the one they currently had.
At the time, Star Trek was run by Rick Berman, who absolutely vetoed any suggestion of putting gay characters or subtext in the show (although he may also have been under pressure from affiliates). Anything which slipped through basically had to be hidden from him by the writers and cast.

The trans subtext in these characters and episodes is, I believe, an accident result of the cast and crew trying to sneak gay stuff in without making it too obvious. The Outsider , for example, is ultimately a story about conversion therapy with a heterosexual romance between characters played by male and female actors. We only read it is as a trans story because it's so mangled that its original intent is lost.
 
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