Joe Biden backs away from a public option.

Phoenixmgs

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Now is the time. Last year was the time. Four years ago was the time. Eight years ago was the time. Twelve years ago was the time. It's been the time. There is no time where it would be "convenient", but now is the time when it's necessary.
I really don't understand how healthcare wasn't like the only talking point in this election basically. Who in their right mind thinks that everything is fine when the pandemic just showed how utterly stupid it is to have healthcare tied to employment? We're in a pandemic where millions lose their jobs and also their healthcare when you'd need it the most.

If there's something to be storming the Capitol for, this would be it.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
I really don't understand how healthcare wasn't like the only talking point in this election basically. Who in their right mind thinks that everything is fine when the pandemic just showed how utterly stupid it is to have healthcare tied to employment? We're in a pandemic where millions lose their jobs and also their healthcare when you'd need it the most.

If there's something to be storming the Capitol for, this would be it.
Because like it or not, most americans are fine with their insurance. Most also say they would like a public option or medicare for all something, but at soon as you start asking questions about raising taxes for something like that, those numbers drop pretty quick. Plus, there is shit to do right now and you can't do this thing through executive order.
 

Schadrach

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Isn't it a marginal majority though? It's also not like every democrat is equally left on the spectrum.
It's not a large majority, but it's enough that they could reasonably end the filibuster (only requires a simple majority, which they have) and actually be able to get shit done. I'm predicting they won't even do that, so they can use not having a 2/3 majority as an excuse for not getting things done and more importantly being able to blame Republicans for not getting things done and for having to propose half measures for every item on their platform they bother with, and then "compromise" those to the right.

He probably wants to go for the widest possible base which I think is smart strategy when you are just beginning the presidency.
Oh, I'm not talk talking first month or first quarter, I'm saying over the course of the next 2 years, at a minimum (possibly longer, subject to midterm elections).
 
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crimson5pheonix

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Yeah, it is. But the alternative isn't already in place, and will take a few months at the very least to establish (just like every public health service in the world has done). It's not an on-off, private-public switch. It's a huge undertaking.

Put it this way. Attlee and Bevan did not establish the NHS immediately after the 1945 election put them in power. It took 3 years. Does that mean it would be true for detractors to say they had "no plans" to implement one? Obviously not. It took a while, because these things do, and we got the NHS.
The two theories that are being put forward, M4A and a public option, already exist. You're talking out of your ass to excuse centrist claptrap and you can drop that moronic line of reasoning now.

M4A relies on the already established Medicare program and the public option that's been bandied about is just a watered down means-tested method to have the Medicare program step in and pay. The legislation is already written, the systems are in place, all that's needed to happen is authorization. It is actually literally no different than Biden's current plan to expand COBRA, except that Biden's plan only helps people making 6 figures a year.

And I won't fucking hear how this is being reasonable, this is an excuse to drop a major campaign promise like we knew he was going to do. Your comparison to the NHS doesn't hold water and your whole argument is just plain insulting, fuck you. No more timetables.

I gave it a LIKE but this part deserves way more than a LIKE.

Louder for all the centrists who want to plug their ears and go "We can't right now cause we can't risk it but NEXT time we'll try"

There's NEVER going to be a convenient time for this. You either care that millions of Americans die (or financially die because their entire life just got crippled as they declare bankruptcy for having the audacity to get cancer) every year from lack of insurance or you don't.

Fuck every single politican with their HeAlThCaRe Is A hUmAn RiGhT bullshit platitudes while sucking off the insurance companies. Either healthcare is a human right worth fighting for or it's not.
This.

I really don't understand how healthcare wasn't like the only talking point in this election basically. Who in their right mind thinks that everything is fine when the pandemic just showed how utterly stupid it is to have healthcare tied to employment? We're in a pandemic where millions lose their jobs and also their healthcare when you'd need it the most.

If there's something to be storming the Capitol for, this would be it.
And this.
 

Gergar12

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Look, to be honest with you I will likely find a way to get insurance since I am young, can get a job with one possibly, but this is terrible.

Some Republicans, and most Democrats, and independents want single-payer health insurance.


And I convinced a conservative to support medicare-for for all. Do you know how? I told him straight up that if they get cancer they are screwed, if someone they know gets cancer they are screwed. You will pay out of pocket expenses unless you get a platinum plan, which good luck with paying for that too.

"A maximum out-of-pocket limit (sometimes referred to as “MOOP”) is the most patients have to pay directly for their health care expenses in a plan year. MOOPs are established in federal law and change every year. In 2021, the limit for an individual plan is $8,550 and the limit for a family plan is $17,100. "

For reference, most people make about 30 thousand a year in the US.

 

tippy2k2

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Look, to be honest with you I will likely find a way to get insurance since I am young, can get a job with one possibly, but this is terrible.

Some Republicans, and most Democrats, and independents want single-payer health insurance.


And I convinced a conservative to support medicare-for for all. Do you know how? I told him straight up that if they get cancer they are screwed, if someone they know gets cancer they are screwed. You will pay out of pocket expenses unless you get a platinum plan, which good luck with paying for that too.

"A maximum out-of-pocket limit (sometimes referred to as “MOOP”) is the most patients have to pay directly for their health care expenses in a plan year. MOOPs are established in federal law and change every year. In 2021, the limit for an individual plan is $8,550 and the limit for a family plan is $17,100. "

For reference, most people make about 30 thousand a year in the US.

I've talked about it a few times on here but I learned first hand what an absolute shit show insurance was last year as I dealt with chronic headaches that wouldn't go away. I have a solid job and am a single guy with no family. I had to spend 5 fucking grand before I hit my Max Out of Pocket. Even once I was through with my MOOP, there were procedures that they wouldn't cover period that my doctor thought would be helpful (biofeedback and Botox shots for my neck if you were curious).

They also fully charged me for three sets of shots I had received because the insurance company felt it wasn't "medically proven to help headaches". The insurance company determined that they knew more about what was and what wasn't medically fucking proven to help me over the three doctors who determined that those shots were medically needed for my issue (I spent about half the year last year fighting them on this and I believe they finally broke since I just got the bill yesterday for them and $1,1248 of it was paid for by the insurance company so I "only" had to cover $932 of it).

I have relatively good insurance too and am in a setup in life where I can take these hits (they might have absolutely butt fucked my finances but I could handle it, though I had to refinance my mortgage to pull it off).

Any politician who is not all in on getting M4A or something of that nature is a politician I will not vote for. Fuck the "lesser evil" shit, there IS NO lesser evil when both sides have decided that if I didn't have $5,000 lying around, I should just fucking suffer. Every single one of them not trying their damndest to get M4A can suck my tiny pathetic dick.
 

Silvanus

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fuck you.
OK, well, no actual discussion gonna happen here then.

I'm getting a bit tired of how quickly these threads devolve into acrimony, even directed towards people on the same side of the aisle. Have fun shouting into the void.
 
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crimson5pheonix

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OK, well, no actual discussion gonna happen here then.

I'm getting a bit tired of how quickly these threads devolve into acrimony, even directed towards people on the same side of the aisle. Have fun shouting into the void.
You're not on my side.
 

Trunkage

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Just wanna point out that while I agree that we should be pushing for Medicare 4 All, Jimmy Dore being the obnoxious belligerent asshole that he is probably screwed the pooch on this. Way too many people are reacting to his bullying than the actual issue.

I can understand the Seder’s desire to develop more electoral power before making the move to ensure it gets through. It doesn’t help during this very specific moment when M4A is needed
 

Silvanus

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You're not on my side.
If your "side" must pass a purity check on every element of method in order to qualify, you'll find your side to be diminishingly small, and excluding the vast majority of committed socialists.

And people wonder why the left hamstrings itself with infighting and factionalism whenever there's the slightest chance of progress.
 
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crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
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I'm starting to understand that broad swathes of the left, including committed socialists, will be met with intense aggression and hostility from some others who share most of the same platform-- if they have any disagreements on method/ approach/ almost anything. Whether they agree on the end point or not, its not enough unless they're 100% on the same page about how, when, who, etc. If your "side" must pass a purity check on every element of method in order to qualify, you'll find your side to be diminishingly small.

And people wonder why the left hamstrings itself with infighting and factionalism whenever there's the slightest chance of progress.
It doesn't help when centrists come along with misinformation and sabotage, then blame the left for infighting. I know you're turned off from continuing because I'm belligerent, this being a matter of life and death and not some faraway tennis match for me, but my post was also pointing out that you're spreading misinformation to help the right-wing cause. You are actually factually incorrect in your assessment and your need to paternalisticly dictate when and how we should ask to stop being killed.

Further, the vaccine distribution is being paid for separately and wholly by the government, changing how hospitals get paid for treatment relating to COVID (or preferably in general) has absolutely 0 impact on vaccine distribution. Your whole argument is uninformed pearl-clutching to simp for people like Joe Manchin who don't want a public option at all and is distracting from the issue at hand.
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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Just wanna point out that while I agree that we should be pushing for Medicare 4 All, Jimmy Dore being the obnoxious belligerent asshole that he is probably screwed the pooch on this. Way too many people are reacting to his bullying than the actual issue.

I can understand the Seder’s desire to develop more electoral power before making the move to ensure it gets through. It doesn’t help during this very specific moment when M4A is needed
So the issue was he didn't ask politely enough?
 

Dwarvenhobble

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For a whole bunch of people, yes. Why do you think Biden won? He’s not as belligerent as Trump. For millions of people, that’s what matters
I was going with Biden won cause of the normal back room media deals and throwing a lot of DNC money at things and being bland and never having to be seen taking a position. I mean Hillary's poll rating went up when she wasn't on the campaign trail or was sick so it allowed people to project their own positions and beliefs onto her. Biden was even more so in that he barely did rallies and just did a fair few press conferences and the rest was advertising.
 
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Silvanus

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It doesn't help when centrists come along with misinformation and sabotage, then blame the left for infighting. I know you're turned off from continuing because I'm belligerent, this being a matter of life and death and not some faraway tennis match for me, but my post was also pointing out that you're spreading misinformation to help the right-wing cause. You are actually factually incorrect in your assessment and your need to paternalisticly dictate when and how we should ask to stop being killed.
I'm not a centrist, and I despise centrism. It's also unhelpful when left-wingers insult & demean other left-wingers for differences in approach: I've seen that pointless hostility sink left-wing campaigns first-hand.

The two of us are being equally "paternalistic". Both of us are trying to convince others that our approach is more effective. If I'm being "paternalistic", so are you, by essentially saying I'm not allowed to take any other stance even on method without being a secret centrist or right-wing "simp".
 

Agema

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You're not on my side.
If you imagine a political spectrum of You - Silvanus - Biden - Romney - Rand Paul, if you can't come to an accommodation even with the people right next to you, you're doomed to accomplish nothing by default.
 
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Zeke davis

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Medicare doesn't have a national distribution plan. How the hell is the infrastructure going to show overnight?

The question is why does it matter crimson's point? The economy isn't going to just quickly adjust to $15 or actually getting the checks out but Biden is still pushing it. I think it was trash of phoenix to pull character attacks and i don't think this mean biden giving up but Silvanus they're right when they calls your logic "An excuse pulled from centrists/rights".

No one is immune to properganda and burning people's leftist cards is obviously not the right response to that but that i can't help but find truth in what they're saying.
 

Seanchaidh

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Medicare doesn't have a national distribution plan. How the hell is the infrastructure going to show overnight?
the resources exist, the doctors and nurses and pharmacists and so on exist, and medicare (nor medicare for all) doesn't really disturb how they function, only who pays them. the real concern is that more people would be able to afford medical care, which may cause an overload in some specific places that are currently largely going without medical care, which is no better; neither M4A nor a health insurance public option are a national health service that needs to be built and organized from the ground up; they replace the insurance companies. That being said, M4A does have some provisions to increase capacity to provide care in some places, and while that might take awhile to get going it also isn't meant to replace existing capacity. Doing it as soon as possible is how you save the most lives.

Integrating doctors and nurses and specialists into a national health service would actually be disruptive in the short term, but that's not what is being proposed.
 

Zeke davis

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the resources exist, the doctors and nurses and pharmacists and so on exist, and medicare (nor medicare for all) doesn't really disturb how they function, only who pays them. the real concern is that more people would be able to afford medical care, which may cause an overload in some specific places that are currently largely going without medical care, which is no better; neither M4A nor a health insurance public option are a national health service that needs to be built and organized from the ground up; they replace the insurance companies. That being said, M4A does have some provisions to increase capacity to provide care in some places, and while that might take awhile to get going it also isn't meant to replace existing capacity. Doing it as soon as possible is how you save the most lives.

Integrating doctors and nurses and specialists into a national health service would actually be disruptive in the short term, but that's not what is being proposed.
Resources and infrastructure aren’t synonyms but like both of us the latter taking some time is still a poor excuse.