Joss Whedon Looks Back Over Dollhouse

[tkioz]

Unlike Firefly I can't really blame Fox, Dollhouse was just plain bad, I gave it 8 episodes before I stopped watching, and I tell you the last few that I watched were a chore. I've liked his other stuff (Buffy, Angel, Firefly) and even did a little geek dance when I first saw the trailer for Serenity... but Dollhouse...

His other two big shows, Buffy (Angel as a spin off, while a really good show, is still a spin off) and Firefly were both awesome because they were character driven shows with interesting premises (Female hero who looks like Victim #4 in Slasher Film X and Space Western with some really awesome dialogue), Dollhouse was just so hard to get into... The characters were so bland... The plots boring recycled garbage you'd expect on any TV show without any of the "Whedon" flare and twists we've come to expect.

And while I really really want to like Dushku she's not that great an actor, her other show that I remember (other then Buffy, where she was actually good) Tru Calling was horrible as well. The other actors were hardly anything to write home about, compared to people like A.S.H and Nathan Fillion.

 

[Gruchul]

Hell Stargate was on MGM, and even though not a lot of people know about it (I'm talking about SG-1 and Atlantis mind you) it was an incredibly successful show.

SG-1 was a huge and well-known show with a big following so I'm not really sure where you're coming from here.

Well being the resident Stargate NERD here, I can affirm to you that; No. Stargate wasn't very well known at all.
Sure it's well known NOW but what about during season 3, 5, or 7? Not so much. Stargates fame came from Atlantis actually when the show was being heavily commercialized. The Stargate fan base mostly grew from peer to peer recommendations.

I think it could be a regional thing. I don't really know how popular it was in the states, but I assure you, it was huge over here in Britain. Stargate's fame didn't come from Atlantis at all as it was always popular. I assumed (apparently incorrectly) that the same was true elsewhere.

 

[robrob]

The show managed to average 3-4 million viewers for it's first season (which isn't great for a fox show) then dropped to around 2 million for the second season. Like the show or not, people weren't watching it and television (fox least of all) has never been about creativity and high production values, it's about profit. I find it hard to be sad for Whedon, just like everyone else in the industry, you have to roll with the punches.

And SG-1 was never that popular, it peaked around 2.5m viewers. However, that's the advantage of being on a smaller network and having a good plan for the show, they syndicated it everywhere and made enough money to keep it going. I also imagine they had a lower budget than Whedon gets though.

Did you ever see any advertising for the show on Fox? And what time did it air? The target audience for the show was an age group that is NOT usually at home watching tv on a friday night, which is when Dollhouse aired.

Nope, not an American, so I didn't see the advertising

And comparatively speaking it did really, really badly [http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/09/26/tv-ratings-dollhouse-brothers-bomb-on-fox-cbs-wins-night/28502] (and it was a consistent thing [http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/10/03/tv-ratings-dollhouse-dips-to-a-new-series-low/29376]. Fox obviously want something to go up against Medium and Dollhouse failed miserably.

It's easy to blame Fox for this because you loved the show and they're the ones canceling it, but it did worse than Firefly (even though Firefly was also shown on a friday night), it was shown in order and it couldn't retain it's viewers.

I'd be interested in what the figures were if you took into account internet viewing.

The problem with that is that no one (especially not Fox) cares about internet viewing, it makes nowhere near as much money. The show was also getting gradually worse, not better, it's second season did far worse than it's first.

 

[Frank_Sinatra_]

I think it could be a regional thing. I don't really know how popular it was in the states, but I assure you, it was huge over here in Britain. Stargate's fame didn't come from Atlantis at all as it was always popular. I assumed (apparently incorrectly) that the same was true elsewhere.

The fame that Stargate deserved here was swallowed up by Battlestar Galatica. Also (although it pains me to say it... Not really) Firefly fans also helped kill the fame that Stargate deserved here in the states.

 

[Acier]

Aww, I thought it was this Dollhouse.

Spoiler

And eh, it's a cancelled show.It happens, theres no need to get upset over it.

 

[solidstatemind]

My wife and I are both hardcore Firefly fans, and we both thought that Dollhouse- while having a few good premises and plot elements- was mostly unrealized potential, and pretty crappy.

To this day, given the incredible underground support for Firefly, we both wondered as recently as a couple of nights ago why Joss Whedon didn't/doesn't take advantage of those well-springs of support and convince a non-major network (like TNT or... ScyFy... <sorry, the spelling made me throw up in my mouth a little bit>) to continue Firefly or even Dollhouse.

He seems almost ADD-- like he has no one compelling creative vision, and would rather jump to the next idea that occurs to him rather than expending the energy crusading for a concept he really believes in.

As a result, I'll just hold on to my fond memories of Firefly, and while I'll give other J.W. vehicles a chance at least, I'm not going to expect anything more of them than an executive producer trying to fumblingly come closer to a show that is acceptable to network television.

 

[traceur_]

Two kicks the the balls in one day!

First I hear Square is cutting content from FF13 and opening the possibly of DLC, and now I hear they're cancelling Dollhouse! I fucking love that show!

 

[Capo Taco]

I watched the first season of dollhouse. How can you squash so much potential?

Bad writing. Overly slow. Few good ideas. Duskhu as lead.

The guy that played victor was absolutely an amazing actor. If he would have been the lead, I think it would have been a much more successful show.

The most interesting question of the show is whether the dollhouse is a good or bad thing to have in the world. Is it slavery or a consensual service? But each time an interesting quandary like this presented itself, it was dealt with in the most ham-handed way. One of the dolls was put there by her rapist. Another after being maimed is put there on permanent duty. Bam. Gone interesting premise.

Another is the threat of 'alpha'. A continual looming reminder that the process of imprinting is not completely secure. This is best set up in the exchange "Why don't you give these dolls the fighting skills to defend themselves?" "We tried that once" "What happened?" "Alpha". Yet when the time comes and you see the flashback (which is a horrid thing to use in tv series), you see that he doesn't have any real fighting skills, just obsessiveness and a knife.

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

I actually liked this show...

Hell, I liked the Buffy spinoff, "Angel".

 

[Volucer]

As much as I love dollhouse, in my eyes it can't reach as high as Firefly or Buffy/Angel (or even Dr. Horrible). Although it is better than most other things on TV. The problem with it was that it took too long to get going, most people will have turned off during that time and skipped on the truly amazing season 2 and the better half of season 1. I stuck with it because it was Whedon and I'm glad I did (unlike SGU which I gave half a season and thought screw it), and if he can learn from his mistakes (ie. working with fox who will screw with everything) then I say alls well that ends well.

 

[CaptainCrunch]

Poor Joss. Maybe someday he'll make something I actually want to watch, so his shows quit flopping.

Oh wait, he makes how much money for shoveling hospital-grade bullshit down our collective throats? No, I really can't feel sorry for him losing a show like Dollhouse. I don't care if his original intent was something different, and Fox left him holding the bag. I have made an honest effort to enjoy every one of his shows, and the writing / direction was the only reason I quit watching them.

Sorry Joss, maybe it's me. It's probably you though.

 

[MDSnowman]

I feel less bad about this than I did Firefly. Firefly was an awesome show constantly undermined by the channel showing it. Dollhouse was significantly less awesome. Every time I watched it I was consistently unimpressed, both by the stories, and Dushku's acting.

Did Fox screw over this show too? Of course they did, I don't think there's a single show Fox has aired in the last ten years that they didn't screw over by being themselves. When a drama on Fox succeeds it's despite the network, not because of it.

Still Dollhouse got more of a fair shake by Fox than Firefly ever got. Seriously, a second season? Ask a Brown Coat, they would blow their mothers out of an airlock for a second season, or a complete first season for that matter.

 

[DaxStrife]

The reasons Dollhouse was canceled:
1) It's FOX. They hate anything that's not the Simpsons, Seth McFarlane or Republican. They already canceled one of his shows, the good one, why in the name of Dog did he go back to them for another beating?
2) The show bit. Sorry, but I lost interest after the third episode, and if you can't hook an audience after three episodes you shouldn't be making them.

 

[Sylocat]

And by the way, having seen the unaired pilot for the series, I can safely say that if FOX had shown that episode first, started the story arc episodes right after that, and then ended the season with 'Epitaph One,' all of you would be calling it the best new sci-fi TV since Battlestar Galactica.

 

[jlaakso]

I like to think of this as karmic retribution for Alien Resurrection.

Whedon wanted to withhold his name from the final movie. I believe the final cut has one line of dialogue that's from his desk, the rest has been redone quite a few times by several writers that came after him.

 

[malestrithe]

I am not a huge fan of Whedon's catalog, but I do know when things are good. I do not think Dollhouse was one of those good things. It should not have been on a broadcast network. It should have been on a cable network, like SyFy, USA, or TNT. Broadcast networks do not have the patience for letting these shows develop an audience. If it does not become an instant rating thing, the network executives want to pull the plug as soon as possible to play reruns of whatever is popular at the time. I am surprised that it got 20+ episode like it did.

A Cable network would have given the show a few things. Creative control over the project. The writer/ producer/ directors of a cable show are given a ton of freedom to get their vision accross. 2. Oversight. They will produce 11-13 episodes looking for potential DVD release of the seasons. They will make sure it is good enough for long dvd time. 3. A chance. The show will get a complete run to find an audience. Leverage took 5 episodes to get their audience. They will run the entire series to guarantee that audience. It is not the whedonites they needed to attract it was the casual scifi fans that needed convincing. Fox was not the place for that.

Those of you that want to give me treatises about why Firefly is the second coming of some golden age, about how his run on X-Men rocked, how Fray is possibly the greatest thing ever, or how even that god awful Alien 4 movie became great the moment you discovered that Whedon is the uncredited writer, please save your fingers the pain. I have read it all before. There are only two things of Whedon's I like: Angel and Dr. Horrible. That is it. No amount of fanboy bitching has changed my mind to this date and no amount of it will. I have seen and read all of Whedon's stuff and I am not taken by it.

 

[DarkSaber]

I like to think of this as karmic retribution for Alien Resurrection.

Whedon wanted to withhold his name from the final movie. I believe the final cut has one line of dialogue that's from his desk, the rest has been redone quite a few times by several writers that came after him.

Yeah right, everything bad in that movie correlates to things from his other shows. Of course, can't blame him entirely, that fuckstick director of *shudder* Amelie is at least equally to blame.

 

[BloodSquirrel]

Why the hell does Whedon keep going back to Fox? He comes up with great stuff, most notably Firefly (in my opinion anyway), and then they keep cancelling his shows? Fox obviously don't appreciate him, so why doesn't he just take his work to another big network like ABC, NBC, PBS (no, scratch that last one...), or the like? Somewhere where he's more likely to get some decent support and whatnot...

Fox was very good to Joss with Dollhouse. They gave him a new show after his last one flopped (and even after the movie that was supposed to vindicate him underperformed), let him try out a fairly out-there concept, and even gave him a second season even after poor ratings. Bottom line: Dollhouse didn't perform. No other network is going to keep his show on the air when it isn't pulling in ratings.

And, quite frankly, Joss Whedon has a seriously problem with always blaming other people for his poor writing/decisions which his fans should NOT be enabling. Every show has to deal with network executives. Part of being a good writer is being able to take ideas and changes that the network wants but you don't think are ideal and making them work at least well enough to not ruin the show. Simply put, Dollhouse has no excuses for some of the terrible writing it had.

The only reason going to Fox was a mistake for Whedon is because, simply put, he can't play on that level; not even Buffy had the ratings to be a hit by Fox's standards. His shows have small audiences, and he should be on a cable network where he can get away with it.