Just finished "A Dance with Dragons", wanna talk

[bartholen_v1legacy]

SPOILERY-TASTIC!

As the title says, I just finished the fifth and currently newest volume in A Song of Ice and Fire, and ah wanna toolk aboot sum stuff. First up I'm expecting The Winds of Winter to be exceedingly brutal. Considering how horrid some things were already in A Clash of Kings, the name alone suggests some incredible brutality to come.

And now about the spoilers.

Spoiler: About things at the Wall

I expect hell to break loose at the wall after the assumed/attempted murder of Jon Snow. Whether or not he's dead, the Night's Watch are going to be screwed. Jon was the only link keeping the uneasy matters between the wildlings and the Night's Watch at bay. Tormund Giantsbane trusted him, but no one else, so there's no one to keep Tormund in check anymore. Queen Selyse will probably try to seize control of the situation, but with her being a fanatical dickbag and outnumbered by the wildlings, she ain't gonna make it.

At this point it seems from whatever point you view the situation from, the Wall is no longer going to hold the wildlings back, not to even mention the Wights and the White Walkers. There could even be a plot point about the Horn of Joramun finally being discovered, and the Wall breaking entirely! That'd be badass. We'd have an all-out White Walker -fest. Zombie apocalypse in Westeros!

The letter from Ramsay Bolton is probably a ruse, like we were led to believe Davos dead in A Feast for Crows. It's either a scheme to draw the Night's Watch from the Wall, for Mance to draw himself a host of wildlings to wreck shit in the north, or a ploy by Stannis to make Jon come and explain himself to him.

Oh, and I want to know how Sam is doing in Oldtown!

Spoiler: About things across the sea

Meereen seems to be royally fucked as well. Daenerys is gone, her city is besieged from the outside and in tumult on the inside. I wouldn't be surprised if Barristan died in this book. What I would want to see is Daenerys finally growing some bal... er, guts and make her enemies her bitches. Imagine if she overthrew the khal who found her at the end and started leading a khalasar riding a goddamned dragon! And then showing up at Meereen to drive the besiegers away with her dragons, fuck yeah!!!11 And then, like she gets a giant mech, and, like fights Galactus...

I also want to see more of Arya. Her training in the House of Black and White was the best thing about A Feast for Crows, and it really started becoming magical in Dance, with her changing her face and all. Make her a badass, have her reunite with Jaqen H'Ghar and stuff!

Spoiler: And more stuff I want to see

How and what are Jaime and Brienne doing? I want to know more about Stoneheart/ Catelyn, I so wanted to know more about her in Dance. What is Tyrion going to do next, considering his goal to get into Meereen has effectively turned on its head? Who is this Robert Strong, is he like Catelyn or like Coldhands? Is Bran going to have anything interesting to do anymore? How are Jojen and Meera going to feel relevant to the story anymore? How is Davos doing? Are we ever going to find out what happened to Benjen Stark or the truth about Jon's mother? As odd as it sounds, I wanted Sansa to have at least one chapter in Dance, since the end of her story in Feast was foreshadowing something drastic and dark. How is she doing? What is going to happen when Victarion finally arrives in Meereen? Is he going to be Daenerys' salvation?

What I am worried about is the amount of plotlines currently at play. Considering Martin already effectively split the fourth book in two with Feast and Dance, with the latter only adding more plots to the mix, how is he going to keep them in check and have them all tie up at the end?

This post is a little incoherent, since I'm just randomly gushing about things that I want to see. So many questions, so long a wait...

Anywayz, your thoughts?

 

[DJjaffacake]

The most prevalent theory about Robert Strong is that he is some kind of Frankenstein's Monster type thing created by Qyburn, primarily using the remains of Gregor Clegane.

There's also a popular theory that Jon Snow's body is dead, but he has warged into Ghost like Varamyr Sixskins did, and/or Melisandre will revive him like Thoros did with Dondarrion and Catelyn.

 

[Anachronism]

To be honest, ASOIAF has been struggling with the issue of too much plot since around A Storm of Swords. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather have a justifiably long book than one which is mostly made up of padding, and each ASOIAF book, with the possible exception of A Feast for Crows, more than justifies its length. The problem is that the story is just so damn big at this point that it takes ages for any significant progression to happen, which was particularly noticeable with Feast. I think this is part of the reason GRRM likes killing characters off so much, that it reduces the number of plotlines he has to deal with.

I'm expecting Winds to be pretty grim as well, considering what happened at the Wall at the end of Dance, and, well, the fact that it's called The Winds of Winter. Not exactly a happy title. Still, the last one's called A Dream of Spring, so there's hope for a reasonably happy ending yet, I suppose.

Spoiler: The Wall

I'm reluctant to believe that Jon is dead, but there's no way of knowing as yet. But I agree with your assessment that the Watch is pretty screwed now; there doesn't seem to be much to stop the Others getting through any more. My prediction is that whoever the Prince That Was Promised turns out to be (either Aegon or Dany) is going to have to sort it out.

Spoiler: Daenerys

Quaithe did tell her that she has to go back in order to go forwards, or something to that effect, and the Dothraki she runs into at the end were part of Drogo's old khalasar. So, if she doesn't take it over, I expect that she's going to need the Dothraki to lift the siege at Meereen. And then she needs to finally get back to Westeros and sort out whether she or Aegon is the rightful heir.

Spoiler: Other stuff

A popular theory is that Benjen Stark is Coldhands, but I'm a little dubious about that since Bran would surely have recognised him. I think finding out about Jon's mother will depend on whether or not he's still alive, but it's been theorised that he's the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. Howland Reed is the only man in the Seven Kingdoms who knows what happened to Lyanna, so I'm sure the Reeds have a part to play yet.

 

[Zef Otter]

To be honest, ASOIAF has been struggling with the issue of too much plot since around A Storm of Swords. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather have a justifiably long book than one which is mostly made up of padding, and each ASOIAF book, with the possible exception of A Feast for Crows, more than justifies its length. The problem is that the story is just so damn big at this point that it takes ages for any significant progression to happen, which was particularly noticeable with Feast. I think this is part of the reason GRRM likes killing characters off so much, that it reduces the number of plotlines he has to deal with.

I'm expecting Winds to be pretty grim as well, considering what happened at the Wall at the end of Dance, and, well, the fact that it's called The Winds of Winter. Not exactly a happy title. Still, the last one's called A Dream of Spring, so there's hope for a reasonably happy ending yet, I suppose.

Spoiler: The Wall

I'm reluctant to believe that Jon is dead, but there's no way of knowing as yet. But I agree with your assessment that the Watch is pretty screwed now; there doesn't seem to be much to stop the Others getting through any more. My prediction is that whoever the Prince That Was Promised turns out to be (either Aegon or Dany) is going to have to sort it out.

Spoiler: Daenerys

Quaithe did tell her that she has to go back in order to go forwards, or something to that effect, and the Dothraki she runs into at the end were part of Drogo's old khalasar. So, if she doesn't take it over, I expect that she's going to need the Dothraki to lift the siege at Meereen. And then she needs to finally get back to Westeros and sort out whether she or Aegon is the rightful heir.

Spoiler: Other stuff

A popular theory is that Benjen Stark is Coldhands, but I'm a little dubious about that since Bran would surely have recognised him. I think finding out about Jon's mother will depend on whether or not he's still alive, but it's been theorised that he's the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. Howland Reed is the only man in the Seven Kingdoms who knows what happened to Lyanna, so I'm sure the Reeds have a part to play yet.

About Coldhands, I think Night's King is Coldhands.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Jon is not dead. Melisandre is at the wall. She's going to pull a Thoros/Beric with him.

Now, the question of whether or not the resurrected Jon will be grim/haunted ala Beric is another matter entirely...

 

[Wolf In A Bear Suit]

I love an ol' thrones chat. Basically Jon won't be dead, or at least not totally. Melisandre is bigging him to be Azor Azhai reborn or what not. It just seems like the red priests are all working towards some hugely sinister motive to me, or maybe their god does. I think the Robert Strong thing is a no issue. The mountain reborn, which makes me think Qyburn is involved somehow with the Red Priests. I was so looking forward to Jon Snow's charge on Winterfell. Set to be epic. And don't worry about the storylines. Georeg is veeery adept at killing people.
P.S I hope Theon lives
Edit: I think Benjen might be Coldhands although "They killed him long ago".
If Jon isn't Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, I'll eat my socks. So many suggestions for it. Ned's honour wouldn't allow him to tell anyone the truth, not even his own wife, who hated Jon for it. All to protect Jon from Robert who would have Jon killed like the rest of the Targaeryens. That's why Jon looks like a Stark, and Arya looks like Lyanna. BANG. Rant over

 

[RonHiler]

I think the Jon thing is pretty obvious. Martin has something planned for him that doesn't involve being a member of the Night's watch. As such, he needed to die, but be brought back by Melisandre. Thus, he can now go off and do other stuff without breaking his vow (which we all know he would never do). He died, and therefore his watch officially ended.

Ultimately, I think this series will end with Jon and Dany winning. I'm not sure if they will split the seven kingdoms between them (Jon ruling the north, Dany the south) or rule it together as a couple. But that's how I see this series ending up.

 

[Fractral]

Not sure if I need spoilers cause nobody else is using them, but may as well.

Spoiler

I think a few chapters have been released (not that I've read them) and one of them was about Victarion starting his attack on slavers bay.
Personally I really just want to see more Arya, Jon and Jaime. Watching Danearys make some many blunders in the later books after her crusade of awesomeness earlier was genuinely painful, so I'm wary of what she'll do next. Other than that there weren't many characters who I remember too well since I read the last book.
Here's to hoping Arya goes on a killing spree somewhere and gets to fulfill her promise of killing Cersei.

 

[thetoddo]

I think that the story of Azor Ahai will be played out again, I just don't know if Dany or Jon is Nissa Nissa yet.

Mereen is screwed, though Tyrion said in the first book that he knows how to train dragons, so I think chances are high of him being one of the three heads.

Also, Victarion gets cooler every time you see him.

Robert Strong is almost certainly a Frankenstien's monster, Qyburn spent A Feast for Crows experimenting on Gregor Clegane's corpse, was ordering armor built that no man could possibly move in and constantly needed new subjects for his experiments. He also told Cercei that her champion was ready at the end of Feast. Mofo is a flesh golem.

 

[Legion]

Anywayz, your thoughts?

We are all going to be dead and buried by the time this series finishes, the way it's going.

Joking aside, I have put it all to the back of my mind for the time being. I really like the series, but having already read all of the books twice each, I try not to think about it too much or else I get impatient.

Spoiler: Personally I suspect (major spoilers, only read if you are up to date):

Jon will survive in some way or another. I cannot see him being killed off entirely, not with so many story threads seemingly related to him.

I believe Robert Strong is Gregor Clegane, but Qyburn has used his magic on him to either keep him alive, or resurrect him. Otherwise they'd have no need to send only a skull to the Dornish.

I agree that Benjen is probably Coldhands, I think that was hinted at strongly.

I suspect Jojen Reed will die, as he seems to be quite ill and not getting better.

Dany will probably rise up and take back control, although personally the whole "Dragons being out of her control" is kind of irritating to me. I want them to be on her side in the war, as it's more interesting.

Ayra doesn't seem to be going anywhere, and I suspect she will probably have a minor role in the next book, but will have a more significant one in the book after.

I reckon Sansa will probably die, seeing as it's been a couple of books without a Stark death.

I am curious about what has happened to Rickon Stark though.

I also want to know what happens with the Dire Wolves. Ayra's one (or possibly Sansa's, but unlikely) is leading a pack of wolves, and I wonder if she will be reunited.

I am unsure of whether or not Stannis is dead. Perhaps Melisandre manipulated him, or was mistaken in regards to him sitting the Iron Throne. I am undecided.

 

[The Funslinger]

Anywayz, your thoughts?

We are all going to be dead and buried by the time this series finishes, the way it's going.

Joking aside, I have put it all to the back of my mind for the time being. I really like the series, but having already read all of the books twice each, I try not to think about it too much or else I get impatient.

Spoiler: Personally I suspect (major spoilers, only read if you are up to date):

Jon will survive in some way or another. I cannot see him being killed off entirely, not with so many story threads seemingly related to him.

I believe Robert Strong is Gregor Clegane, but Qyburn has used his magic on him to either keep him alive, or resurrect him. Otherwise they'd have no need to send only a skull to the Dornish.

I agree that Benjen is probably Coldhands, I think that was hinted at strongly.

I suspect Jojen Reed will die, as he seems to be quite ill and not getting better.

Dany will probably rise up and take back control, although personally the whole "Dragons being out of her control" is kind of irritating to me. I want them to be on her side in the war, as it's more interesting.

Ayra doesn't seem to be going anywhere, and I suspect she will probably have a minor role in the next book, but will have a more significant one in the book after.

I reckon Sansa will probably die, seeing as it's been a couple of books without a Stark death.

I am curious about what has happened to Rickon Stark though.

I also want to know what happens with the Dire Wolves. Ayra's one (or possibly Sansa's, but unlikely) is leading a pack of wolves, and I wonder if she will be reunited.

I am unsure of whether or not Stannis is dead. Perhaps Melisandre manipulated him, or was mistaken in regards to him sitting the Iron Throne. I am undecided.

Spoiler

As for the Direwolf, it's definitely Nymeria (Arya's wolf). Ned killed Lady as penance for what happened to Joffrey. Plus the visions were linked to Arya.

For people who are interested, a chapter of Winds of Winter has been released on George RR Martin's site.

 

[Legion]

Spoiler

As for the Direwolf, it's definitely Nymeria (Arya's wolf). Ned killed Lady as penance for what happened to Joffrey. Plus the visions were linked to Arya.

For people who are interested, a chapter of Winds of Winter has been released on George RR Martin's site.

Spoiler

I know why Ned was "supposed" to kill Lady, but that wouldn't necessarily mean that he did. After all, they sent the bones back to Winterfell, so they could have done the old switcharoo, and used a dogs bones.

Although I forgot about the visions, so it would seem that he did. Plus at that point Ned was still willing to obey orders he disagreed with.

I think a part of it is just me disliking the deaths of the Starks and the Dire Wolves.

 

[Robot Number V]

First of all, Jon isn't dead. Think about it: No one EVER dies in their own chapters. Catlyn came close but, well, we all know how that turned out. And I don't know if anyone's posted this yet, but there's a theory that Jon's mother was actually Ned's sister, and Jon's father is a Targaryen (I forget which one). We already know she made Ned promise something before she died. Obviously he would have to lie about Jon's origins, otherwise Robert would've killed him.

Anyway, here's a quick list of things I want developed in Winds of Winter:

-Cersei and Zombie Clegane. Seriously, she was creeping me the FUCK out at the end of the latest book, being all subdued and polite. She must have something BIG planned, and I can't wait to see how it plays out, especially with the last rational Lannister in King's Landing dead.

-More Magic Assassin Arya. It would be really nice if she started making her way back to King's Landing to finally start shortening that list of hers. Maybe just in time to stop Cersei from...You know...Cersei-ing all over the place.

-Dany finally leaving Slaver's Bay. I personally think she's going to head for Asshai, as per the mysterious prophecy/riddle she was thinking about.

-More Zombie Catlyn. With Brienne leading Jaime into an obvious trap, this one is pretty much guaranteed. I just hope she doesn't actually succeed in killing Jaime. It would be nice to see Catlyn do something OTHER then murder people for a change.

-Obviously, as long as Tyrion continues to exist, it'll be enough for me. Though I personally hope he gets to ride of the dragons.

-More Magic Tree-Master Bran. I'm hoping Bran's development will lead to two things: Finding out more about the Walkers (and whatever...THING....is at the North Pole that Bran saw in his dream way back in the first book) and Bran essentially becoming Darth Vader. He's already started using his powers for evil, possessing Hodor out of boredom even though he knows Hodor doesn't like it.

-I would also really like Sansa to finally grow a pair and become an awesome badass like all the other Starks. Not overnight or anything, but she should do SOMETHING other then sit around being a pawn.

 

[Sean951]

Jon will live. There needs to be 3 dragon riders to go with the 3 dragons, and there is no way he isn't the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. SO it will be him, Dany, and Aegon riding against the Others. I don't know how it happens, but that's where I see it going.

I feel that Arya still has a big role to play, partially because of how awesome she is, but also the HBO series. It might change quite a bit, but Martin is heavily involved with writing that story as well and remember Melisandre's little talk with her.

 

[WouldYouKindly]

Jon is not dead. Melisandre is at the wall. She's going to pull a Thoros/Beric with him.

Now, the question of whether or not the resurrected Jon will be grim/haunted ala Beric is another matter entirely...

Now, it's been a while since I read ADwD, but I though she had left and given him some cryptic warning cause seers can never just fucking tell you who is going to try to kill you or when.

That being said, I wouldn't be too certain he's dead either. He's more interesting to have alive. Without him the Wildling/Night's Watch alliance falls apart and they go back to their regular infighting. Violent, but a return to the status quo. Him alive and VERY pissed off would be a lot more fun to watch. Oh, one thing is for certain, Bowen Marsh is going to die. Tormund will kill him if Jon is dead and can't control Ghost. Ghost will kill him if Jon dies and is in control. Jon will kill him if he doesn't die. That's the ultimate lose situation for Marsh.

 

[Silvanus]

With regards to Stannis, and his supposed defeat at Winterfell;

I don't quite see it happening. Lord Bolton's situation seems ripe to blow up in his face; Lord Manderly is plotting against him, the Spearwives are plotting against him, and the "Ghost in Winterfell" is knocking people off within the castle. Stannis may be drowning in a snowdrift, but so are the Boltons.

As Stannis says in the Winds of Winter:

"I defeated [Victarion Greyjoy] and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time [Balon Greyjoy] crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my number. Tell me... what battles has the bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?"

I'm uncertain about Jon. Part of me is thinking that Martin has pulled the "He's dead... OH WAIT!" trick too many times already; he did it with Davos, he did it with Mance, he even did it briefly with Arya in ASOS. If Jon were to have a hope anywhere, the best bet would be at the wall. There must be a reason Melisandre stayed behind. We could get some real insight into her quest and her motivations in the next book.

 

[WouldYouKindly]

Jon will live. There needs to be 3 dragon riders to go with the 3 dragons, and there is no way he isn't the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. SO it will be him, Dany, and Aegon riding against the Others. I don't know how it happens, but that's where I see it going.

I feel that Arya still has a big role to play, partially because of how awesome she is, but also the HBO series. It might change quite a bit, but Martin is heavily involved with writing that story as well and remember Melisandre's little talk with her.

Green eyes are obviously Cersei or Jamie.

Pale blue are likely Ilyn Payne.

Brown eyes could be freaking anyone she's told to kill, unless she gets the final kill on Gregor since he likely came back as Robert Strong.

 

[EmilShmiengura]

I
If Jon isn't Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, I'll eat my socks. So many suggestions for it. Ned's honour wouldn't allow him to tell anyone the truth, not even his own wife, who hated Jon for it. All to protect Jon from Robert who would have Jon killed like the rest of the Targaeryens. That's why Jon looks like a Stark, and Arya looks like Lyanna. BANG. Rant over

You Sir have earned yourself a beer the first chance I get.
A Dance with Dragons really gave me the feeling that maybe Mr. Martin has too much material on his hands. It feels like a plot-grenade blowing up in your face. Don't get me wrong, I'm hoping for good books from him, but they're so far apart it's hard to keep invested in the whole thing.

 

[Miyenne]

I don't believe Jon is dead, but I'm going against the grain here and thinking that Jon isn't Rhaegar's son. I think he's Robert's son. Who his mother is, I'm not totally decided yet though. So Mel will have to bring him back as he has Kings blood in him.

Dany I believe will come back to Mereen at the head of the khalesar... Although I don't think she'll be leading it. Perhaps as a prisoner. You have to remember how weak she is and how her dragons really don't answer to her, and how Khal whatshisface really hated her. I think perhaps Tyrion will so some wheeling and dealing to get Mereen under control and somehow convince Dany to work with him.

I'm pretty sure Dany and Tyrion are two of the three heads. The third I would love to be Jon (Baratheon/Lannister/Targaryen alliance, although Lannisters don't quite have a claim to the throne like the other two families) but I am not totally sure. I mean, for a moment there we all thought it would be Martell, but then Poof! he went. Although there are still more Martells...

I doubt it'll be Arya, I believe she'll peter out and kill a few people but never commit to anything. Sansa I hope will catch onto the game and play Littlefinger's emotions against him and rise to the occasion, but I'm kinda doubtful of that.

Brienne, I regret to say I think is going to die. Not as she is at the end of the book, but sooner rather than later. ZombieCat will not forgive her.

It's been a while since I read it though, maybe I'll have to give it another go through one of these days.

 

[Yelchor]

As awesome the many different current unsolved scenarios will be, to me nothing can quite top what is brewing in...

Spoiler: Slaver's Bay

Regardless of what may happen, Meereen will become a mess. Not only are all the Dragons freed (conveinently occupying the local nobility's homes for their lairs and rendering any possible powerful political enemy to Daenerys into mere homeless people), with an entire khalasar possibly seeking to take advantage of the situation to clash with the Yunkai who have already suffered greatly from disease (Note to self: Typhoid is NASTY), BUT A FRIKKIN' ARMADA OF CTHULHU-WORSHIPPING VIKINGS ARE SAILING AT FULL SPEED TO SLAUGHTER AND PILLAGE EVERYTHING IN THEIR PATH.

...Breathe. Breathe...