Just trying to save the world

[Aramax]

Aramax, if you're just messing around, kudos.

if you're not, then you are one ballsy mofo for thinking you have, on the escapist forums, come up with an economic and governmental system that is better than everything that has come before it. Your first two contentions are straight up Marxism (or at least very generous interpretations). Your third and fourth contentions are...well they are ripped off from an episode of South Park.

Again, I would have thought you were joking, but you seem to be defending this rather fervently.

I am more then a little awestruck to be honest.

Oh, and as to your second contention, I refer you to the Animatrix.

I didn't came up with it. The resource based economy system is something Jacque Fresco envisioned and I just happen to like that idea and I know it would solve most of our present problems.

I didn't just post about this on The Escapist... I talk about this almost everywhere I go on the net. Especially when there's a lot of people.

As for the Animatrix... I hope you know the difference between reality and fiction.

 

[Aramax]

communism (stop trying to bottle old wine in new bottles and call it something else)...

I stopped reading there. Communism is a monetary-based system. A resource-based economy would be non-monetary based.

Big difference right there.

 

[dwightsteel]

Aramax, if you're just messing around, kudos.

if you're not, then you are one ballsy mofo for thinking you have, on the escapist forums, come up with an economic and governmental system that is better than everything that has come before it. Your first two contentions are straight up Marxism (or at least very generous interpretations). Your third and fourth contentions are...well they are ripped off from an episode of South Park.

Again, I would have thought you were joking, but you seem to be defending this rather fervently.

I am more then a little awestruck to be honest.

Oh, and as to your second contention, I refer you to the Animatrix.

I didn't came up with it. The resource based economy system is something Jacque Fresco envisioned and I just happen to like that idea and I know it would solve most of our present problems.

I didn't just post about this on The Escapist... I talk about this almost everywhere I go on the net. Especially when there's a lot of people.

As for the Animatrix... I hope you know the difference between reality and fiction.

heh, wow. Ok, first, have you never heard the expression "you attract more bees with honey, then with vinegar?" You are the one trying to convince us that you're right, and by acting overtly elitist about the idea, you're really doing your "movement" a disservice.

That being said, based on your principal statement, it didn't occur to me that you were attempting to spout out the Venus Project propaganda. Your initial description is more than a little misleading.

I'm glad that you've watched Zeitgeist though. It's a fun flick.

 

[RetiarySword]

Well capitalism kind of won anyway and I think is the better system. What you get out depends on what you put in. Also there was a time when we didn't have money but it was harder to trade. So they made a standard: Currency. Also money is realy what keeps people going. If they get all that stuff provided who will work? Who will produce the products? The food? Your awnser is robots.. Who will build the robots? Who will program them? Who will move them around? your argument is flawed in many ways.

 

[dwightsteel]

Well capitalism kind of won anyway and I think is the better system. What you get out depends on what you put in. Also there was a time when we didn't have money but it was harder to trade. So they made a standard: Currency. Also money is realy what keeps people going. If they get all that stuff provided who will work? Who will produce the products? The food? Your awnser is robots.. Who will build the robots? Who will program them? Who will move them around? your argument is flawed in many ways.

he's kind of regurgitating a principle that's being used by whats called the Venus Project. Most of what you're saying is covered within their basic proposal for this "resource-based economy", but you are correct. There are some pretty glaring holes in Fresco's PoV.

 

[munkyforce]

I'm a little confused about the whole resource scarcity thing here. Isn't resource scarcity a fundamentally inescapable economic condition? Isn't it intuitively logical that many resouces are finite? Even with zero economic growth and a constant population at "carrying capacity" capital equipment still wears out and needs to be replaced to maintain equilibrium and avoid a deterioration in standards of living (negative growth). How does this system deal with this problem?

 

[dwightsteel]

by capitalizing on renewable resources, and proper energy use. Also, according to Fresco, there are enough resources in the world to provide lavish comforts for every man, woman and child. It's essentially a futurist's take on communism, as much as the original poster chooses to deny it.

 

[Aramax]

heh, wow. Ok, first, have you never heard the expression "you attract more bees with honey, then with vinegar?" You are the one trying to convince us that you're right, and by acting overtly elitist about the idea, you're really doing your "movement" a disservice.

That being said, based on your principal statement, it didn't occur to me that you were attempting to spout out the Venus Project propaganda. Your initial description is more than a little misleading.

I'm glad that you've watched Zeitgeist though. It's a fun flick.

I dont think someone acting any other way then with complete confidence ( Elitism if you will ) toward his idea would even have a remote chance of convincing others to even start a discussion about the idea itself. I dont really understand where such analogy ( honey and vinegar ) took form in this discussion but I think you deserve all the facts.

The fact is that I know about the greatest flaw of a resource based economy and this flaw is called entertainment. It's true that without incentive there would be a drastic decrease in motivation from artists and this could eventualy lead to a very boring life. But on the other hand, it would give you time to admire most of the artistic creations ( Paintings, music, film, games, etc... ) that were already created that you missed while waiting for something new.

I know it doesn't sound exiting at all.

It's essentially a futurist's take on communism, as much as the original poster chooses to deny it.

It's more like a futuristic take on capitalism if you think about it.

 

[Aramax]

I'm a little confused about the whole resource scarcity thing here. Isn't resource scarcity a fundamentally inescapable economic condition? Isn't it intuitively logical that many resouces are finite? Even with zero economic growth and a constant population at "carrying capacity" capital equipment still wears out and needs to be replaced to maintain equilibrium and avoid a deterioration in standards of living (negative growth). How does this system deal with this problem?

When you talk about resources you need to take into account that nothing is lost, nothing is created, everything is transformed.

You talk of economic growth like it was some sort of obligation for any given society. If there is no money there is no economy but there will always be progress no matter what. Progress will go a lot less faster but that's exactly what will save us all so it is not something that is to be entirely undesired.

With this knowledge you know that a resource based economy would be able to sustain itself... more efficiently so then a capitalist based system where people who are being payed by the hour to repair said equipment take their time to complete the job often putting lives at risks, where fraudulent people can take advantage of the system ( Remember that Monorail episode from the Simpsons? ), where equipments repairs are delayed because of low budgets... I could go on forever.

 

[Kajt]

I wish, that in the future, money and working will be gone forever.
Then, we humans could live life the way we want to, and not the way we have to!

 

[Aramax]

I wish, that in the future, money and working will be gone forever.
Then, we humans could live life the way we want to, and not the way we have to!

A resource based economy could be seen as some sort of vacation from the fast paced systems that we've been forced to endure for so long.

If only there would be less people who have this irrational fear of change ( Baracknophobes? ) this world would become a better place.

 

[munkyforce]

When you talk about resources you need to take into account that nothing is lost, nothing is created, everything is transformed.

Sorry this the part I'm not getting, can you specify what the difference is between created and transformed?

 

[Aramax]

When you talk about resources you need to take into account that nothing is lost, nothing is created, everything is transformed.

Sorry this the part I'm not getting, can you specify what the difference is between created and transformed?

The difference between "created" and "transformed" would be the meaning of each words.

 

[Nmil-ek]

Ugh, this is that Zeitgeist crap again isnt it.

 

[Aramax]

Ugh, this is that Zeitgeist crap again isnt it.

Totally unrelated.

 

[Trifer420]

zeitgeist revolves around capitalism and the economy of the USA

 

[Aramax]

zeitgeist revolves around capitalism and the economy of the USA

I watched Zeitgeist and i'm still neutral to everything they discussed mainly because they insist too much on religion. This topic revolves around resource-based economy and the socio-political systems of the world and nothing more.

 

[munkyforce]

When you talk about resources you need to take into account that nothing is lost, nothing is created, everything is transformed.

Sorry this the part I'm not getting, can you specify what the difference is between created and transformed?

The difference between "created" and "transformed" would be the meaning of each words.

Ok so a television set is transformed from what exactly, given it cannot be created?

 

[Danzaivar]

I honestly believe we will eventually adapt such a system, but we don't have the technology for it yet. We can't automate every job that noone wants to do yet, and if noone wants to do it they need an incentive to do so.

There is also the corruption inherent in any system where a Government controls EVERYTHING, however if we did reach a point where everyone could have everything they ever wanted, they'd have no incentive to anyway. So if you want to see this, i'd say you need to freeze yourself for 500-600 years.

 

[Aramax]

I honestly believe we will eventually adapt such a system, but we don't have the technology for it yet. We can't automate every job that noone wants to do yet, and if noone wants to do it they need an incentive to do so.

There is also the corruption inherent in any system where a Government controls EVERYTHING, however if we did reach a point where everyone could have everything they ever wanted, they'd have no incentive to anyway. So if you want to see this, i'd say you need to freeze yourself for 500-600 years.

Like I said, your range of thought is limited by the dominant values of your society. The industries inside a society based on scarcity has advantage not to release all the technological advancements they produce too early because if they would do so, they would put their profits at risk. Instead they keep everything secret and release everything they have bits by bits just as long as their product is better then the next guy hoping nobody can create something better for a long time. Remove this wall and make every industry in the world unite and cooperate with each others and you will soon notice that we do have the technology.

Of course i'm against drastic changes to society because that would create more pain and suffering then anything else. This is why we should take steps toward a definitive change.

[ol]
[li]Talk about it to everyone you know or invite people you know to join the discussions already in place.[/li]
[li]Make people sign a petition to see how many would actually desire a change toward a resource-based economy.[/li]
[li]Send the petition to elect officials.[/li]
[li]Start a political party that would support a change for a resource-based economy.[/li]
[li]Vote.[/li]
[/ol]

Today is phase 1.