Just trying to save the world

[Eclectic Dreck]

Um...I like money? Let's face it, we need money or some kind of currency.

Likewise, so if you don't want your money please mail all of to me and Prime then.

I think you might be missing the crux of the argument. Money in and of itself is worthless and is valued entirely on the shared perception that it has actual value. Because it has no real value outside of a vague concept, one is free to quite literally invent money through any number of incredibly fancy math tricks.

If you use a resource based economy, or any permuatation of the bartering system, the currency becomes the goods and services one can actually provide rather than the promise of potential future goods or services.

Not to take sides in the matter. Resource based economies have historically proven themselves quite difficult to manage, hence why currency was gradually changed from an item of value (say a precious metal stamped into the shape of a coin) to paper (because items of value are more limited than inherently valueless paper) and finally into the theoritical where we happily make and lose billions without ever exchaning any real resources (and by we, I mean entities who have substantially more resources than I).

 

[Danzaivar]

I honestly believe we will eventually adapt such a system, but we don't have the technology for it yet. We can't automate every job that noone wants to do yet, and if noone wants to do it they need an incentive to do so.

There is also the corruption inherent in any system where a Government controls EVERYTHING, however if we did reach a point where everyone could have everything they ever wanted, they'd have no incentive to anyway. So if you want to see this, i'd say you need to freeze yourself for 500-600 years.

Like I said, your range of thought is limited by the dominant values of your society. The industries inside a society based on scarcity has advantage not to release all the technological advancements they produce too early because if they would do so, they would put their profits at risk. Instead they keep everything secret and release everything they have bits by bits just as long as their product is better then the next guy hoping nobody can create something better for a long time. Remove this wall and make every industry in the world unite and cooperate with each others and you will soon notice that we do have the technology.

Of course i'm against drastic changes to society because that would create more pain and suffering then anything else. This is why we should take steps toward a definitive change.

[ol]
[li]Talk about it to everyone you know or invite people you know to join the discussions already in place.[/li]
[li]Make people sign a petition to see how many would actually desire a change toward a resource-based economy.[/li]
[li]Send the petition to ellect officials.[/li]
[li]Start a political party that would support a change for a resource-based economy.[/li]
[li]Vote.[/li]
[/ol]

Today is phase 1.

Ah, so you're a conspiracy theorist. Fair enough.

There are some things which are being suppressed while they squeeze every last bit of penny out of it (I.e. Hydrogen fuel -> Petrol), but something which cuts the workers out would be there straight away.

You know why? Profit. Production costs would PLUMMET, production speed would rocket, your margins would be off the scale and you'd put all your competitors out of business. The technology doesn't exist yet because put simply, if it did, half the population would be pointless.

But you know, I guess "The man trying to keep us down" is a lot easier to rant about than "Hopefully my kids will have a better life", it has to be here now, and you have to be a pariah to take us all to the promised land.

 

[Zeke the Freak]

this is a horrible system as it takes away luxuries, assuring that there's no way to get ahead in life.
you'll help the poor
but punish the upper/ upper middle class. There will be rebellion, and they will all decide to leave, then your left with the lazy ass ex-hobo's. There is no possible way this will work. In all your speaking, aramax, you left out the most important element, the human element. The human mind is chaotic and selfish. They want more and more and more, if you take away their ability to even have a chance to get more, the shit will hit the fan. People will die, countries will fall, and everything will be rendered valueless.

Lets say one country owes a debt to another. Once the country switches to the resource based economy there will be no way to pay off that debt and the country will undoubtedly get pissed and take drastic measures.

What about the military. The number one incentive to joining is the fact that they get paid to do it. Without the pay, your military might will be reduced drasticly *by a factor of fucking ten, that means the 90 out of 100 people wont serve where they normally would if paid* and subject your people to a hostile take over from who-gives-a-shit-astan.

It's logically impracticle as we'll run through our resources twice as fast seeing as we're just giving shit away, making sure EVERYONE gets a TV and EVERYONE gets a car. Which brings in the next problem, health.

The people will be either FAT as HELL or SCRAWNY, due to lack of exercise that we get daily from our jobs. As you see, this is obviously aimed to secure the population in poverty and is in no way benificial to the working man.

 

[Aramax]

Ah, so you're a conspiracy theorist. Fair enough.

There are some things which are being suppressed while they squeeze every last bit of penny out of it (I.e. Hydrogen fuel -> Petrol), but something which cuts the workers out would be there straight away.

You know why? Profit. Production costs would PLUMMET, production speed would rocket, your margins would be off the scale and you'd put all your competitors out of business. The technology doesn't exist yet because put simply, if it did, half the population would be pointless.

But you know, I guess "The man trying to keep us down" is a lot easier to rant about than "Hopefully my kids will have a better life", it has to be here now, and you have to be a pariah to take us all to the promised land.

Ah, so you're a baby-eating gypsy. Fair enough.

Seriously, it's not a conspiracy it's a simple fact that all the industries are bound to one principle: The principle is that they need money to work and to earn money they must make the money circulate somehow, employing peoples instead of robots is a good way to achieve this. I am quite knowledgeble in the field of robotics and I know that a lot of information in this field is being repressed. Like the fact that iRobot corps. funds come mainly from investment from the american government.

http://store.irobot.com/corp/index.jsp

Protip: Paid for by the american nation with the millitary funds. And they dont even hide it anymore.

this is a horrible system as it takes away luxuries, assuring that there's no way to get ahead in life.
you'll help the poor
but punish the upper/ upper middle class. There will be rebellion, and they will all decide to leave, then your left with the lazy ass ex-hobo's. There is no possible way this will work. In all your speaking, aramax, you left out the most important element, the human element. The human mind is chaotic and selfish. They want more and more and more, if you take away their ability to even have a chance to get more, the shit will hit the fan. People will die, countries will fall, and everything will be rendered valueless.

Lets say one country owes a debt to another. Once the country switches to the resource based economy there will be no way to pay off that debt and the country will undoubtedly get pissed and take drastic measures.

What about the military. The number one incentive to joining is the fact that they get paid to do it. Without the pay, your military might will be reduced drasticly *by a factor of fucking ten, that means the 90 out of 100 people wont serve where they normally would if paid* and subject your people to a hostile take over from who-gives-a-shit-astan.

It's logically impracticle as we'll run through our resources twice as fast seeing as we're just giving shit away, making sure EVERYONE gets a TV and EVERYONE gets a car. Which brings in the next problem, health.

The people will be either FAT as HELL or SCRAWNY, due to lack of exercise that we get daily from our jobs. As you see, this is obviously aimed to secure the population in poverty and is in no way benificial to the working man.

A resource-based economical system would only take away luxuries in the most extreme of worst case scenario... kinda like the capitalism system we have currently. Having no one working would be the exact equivalent of the economic crisis that we are going through right now. In the best case scenario you would actually work less often and have more free time to actually do the things that matters ( like doing more exercises ) because the work force would be increased drastically and shift work would be less charged for everyone. Imagine working only 14 hours a week.

The only difference between both systems is that you never let a chance for a resource-based economy to be tested. How many great depressions are you going to suffer before you open your eyes?

Cute little picture to end this discussion.

Just to make things perfectly clear to everyone:

People fighting against a resource based economy are assuming that human nature is inherent.

People fighting for it are assuming that human nature isn't inherent.

We wont know for sure unless we test it.

 

[Danzaivar]

Ah, so you're a baby-eating gypsy. Fair enough.

Seriously, it's not a conspiracy it's a simple fact that all the industries are bound to one principle: The principle is that they need money to work and to earn money they must make the money circulate somehow, employing peoples instead of robots is a good way to achieve this. I am quite knowledgeble in the field of robotics and I know that a lot of information in this field is being repressed. Like the fact that iRobot corps. funds come mainly from investment from the american government.

http://store.irobot.com/corp/index.jsp

Protip: Paid for by the american nation with the millitary funds. And they dont even hide it anymore.

They need money to survive in our current system. There is literally NO ADVANTAGE to holding back a system where everyone has everything they could want, and never needs to work for it.

A company doesn't need to give away its money to workers to 'circulate', it needs to take as much as it can, to invest it so it can earn even more. Workers aren't an investment, they're a running cost.

I'm not saying your proposed system doesn't/wouldn't work, I'm saying it's not possible yet, and you don't understand our current system well enough to see why it's not possible yet.

You aren't the only one who pays a lot of attention to the bleeding edge of robotics, you know.

 

[Internet Kraken]

communism (stop trying to bottle old wine in new bottles and call it something else)...

I stopped reading there. Communism is a monetary-based system. A resource-based economy would be non-monetary based.

Big difference right there.

But it still suffers from the same flaws as communism.

 

[Aramax]

They need money to survive in our current system. There is literally NO ADVANTAGE to holding back a system where everyone has everything they could want, and never needs to work for it.

A company doesn't need to give away its money to workers to 'circulate', it needs to take as much as it can, to invest it so it can earn even more. Workers aren't an investment, they're a running cost.

I'm not saying your proposed system doesn't/wouldn't work, I'm saying it's not possible yet, and you don't understand our current system well enough to see why it's not possible yet.

You aren't the only one who pays a lot of attention to the bleeding edge of robotics, you know.

The advantage is rather obvious, it gives them the competitive edge and time to ameliorate their products.

A industrial companies need to give away its money to workers otherwise those workers wouldn't have any money and there would be less money circulating.

I think you're the one who dont fully understand what capitalism is all about.

 

[Aramax]

But it still suffers from the same flaws as communism.

You will have to clarify because i'm not a communist.

 

[Internet Kraken]

But it still suffers from the same flaws as communism.

You will have to clarify because i'm not a communist.

People have no incentive to work if they are not receiving monetary compensation for doing so. As a result almost nobody works and society crumbles because we are not able to produce enough to survive.

That's just one reason it would fail.

 

[Aramax]

I didn't know that it was a flaw... as a matter of fact, I never heard a single communist complain about his system.

 

[MoganFreeman]

If everyone receives every material good they could desire and won't have to work for it, what incentive remains for anyone to work?

EDIT: Also, there simply aren't enough resources for every person on earth to have TVs, iPods, stereos and whatever else OP claimed everyone could have for free.

 

[Danzaivar]

They need money to survive in our current system. There is literally NO ADVANTAGE to holding back a system where everyone has everything they could want, and never needs to work for it.

A company doesn't need to give away its money to workers to 'circulate', it needs to take as much as it can, to invest it so it can earn even more. Workers aren't an investment, they're a running cost.

I'm not saying your proposed system doesn't/wouldn't work, I'm saying it's not possible yet, and you don't understand our current system well enough to see why it's not possible yet.

You aren't the only one who pays a lot of attention to the bleeding edge of robotics, you know.

The advantage is rather obvious, it gives them the competitive edge and time to ameliorate their products.

A industrial companies need to give away its money to workers otherwise those workers wouldn't have any money and there would be less money circulating.

I think you're the one who dont fully understand what capitalism is all about.

That's my point, they wouldn't NEED to have a competitive edge. They wouldn't NEED to sell products. The point of capitalism is to circulate money, but the individual GOAL is to accumulate it! If you had ALL the money you wouldn't give it away just to earn it back, you'd keep it.

Like I said, this 'Star Trek economy' is a good idea, eventually. But we don't have the systems to support it yet. I'm sorry, but you was born in the wrong era.

 

[Glerken]

In the event of mass laziness, robots will be created

In the event of mass laziness, who will create the robots?

 

[Aramax]

If everyone receives every material good they could desire and won't have to work for it, what incentive remains for anyone to work?

EDIT: Also, there simply aren't enough resources for every person on earth to have TVs, iPods, stereos and whatever else OP claimed everyone could have for free.

Do you really need incentive to work? Do you really need incentive to give blood? Do you really need incentive to volunteer?

And there is enough resources for everyone on the planet to live a happy life under a resource-based economy. You just say otherwise because you're pessimist.

If you want to keep bringing this argument then at least back it up with some evidence.

In the event of mass laziness, robots will be created

In the event of mass laziness, who will create the robots?

Nobody but it would be exactly the same thing as starving to death instead of making a sandwich.

 

[Moormur]

So, human nature isn't nature?

 

[Aramax]

So, human nature isn't nature?

Obviously not.

 

[Zeke the Freak]

If everyone receives every material good they could desire and won't have to work for it, what incentive remains for anyone to work?

EDIT: Also, there simply aren't enough resources for every person on earth to have TVs, iPods, stereos and whatever else OP claimed everyone could have for free.

Do you really need incentive to work? Do you really need incentive to give blood? Do you really need incentive to volunteer?

yes i fucking do. I give blood to those who NEED IT! Not those who are too lazy to make it themselves. Not that thats physically possible but you get the point, as well, its a QUICKLY RENEWABLE RESOURCE THAT YOU DONT NEED HALF OF! If im not gonna finnish a sandwich and some straving guy is next to me then go the fuck ahead and ask for it. But when the government MAKES me give him ALL of my sandwich, that i havent even taken a bit out of mind you, at gun point thats a whole different scenerio.

you act like cleaning up a neighbor hood for an hour for free is the same as shrimping, trucking, or lumbering for free. Voulenteering is usually a painfree task that we do when WE have too much time and money. Christ on a crutch, man, stop throwing the same examples at me again and again as your only argument.

 

[Aramax]

Ok, how about forum badges... that's a good incentive, right?

=D

 

[Zeke the Freak]

Ok, how about forum badges... that's a good incentive, right?

=D

I am too irked at the moment to recognize any humor. >:/