Justice Department Refuses To Charge Officers Who Shot Tamir Rice Citing "Grainy Footage"

[Agema]

I'm alluding to all the people who think that there are no problems in the justice system when they get an outcome they're happy with (election fraud, for example), but think that the justice system is broken when they get an outcome they aren't happy with (this example of Tamir Rice)

Again, one cannot help but point out the false equivalence between a situation where a child with a toy gun is verifiably dead at the hands of officers who verifiably lied about some of the details, and the situation of an alleged fraud that no-one's got substantial evidence on. The latter being analogous to a guy reporting murder to the police at 5.30pm because his wife hasn't come back at 5pm as he expected.

The prosecutors are well within their rights, of course, to decide that a prosecution is not feasible - and it's not. The police only need to make the barest argument of believing credible threat, and it will be accepted under reasonable doubt. If evidence (such as the video) cannot weaken that credible threat as a defence, that's there's no point wasting public time and money on a near-guaranteed fail.

 

[Cheetodust]

Again, one cannot help but point out the false equivalence between a situation where a child with a toy gun is verifiably dead at the hands of officers who verifiably lied about some of the details, and the situation of an alleged fraud that no-one's got substantial evidence on. The latter being analogous to a guy reporting murder to the police at 5.30pm because his wife hasn't come back at 5pm as he expected.

The prosecutors are well within their rights, of course, to decide that a prosecution is not feasible - and it's not. The police only need to make the barest argument of believing credible threat, and it will be accepted under reasonable doubt. If evidence (such as the video) cannot weaken that credible threat as a defence, that's there's no point wasting public time and money on a near-guaranteed fail.

Everytime you engage he wins.

 

[Trunkage]

Everytime you engage he wins.

This sounds very much like you didn't watch the video

Edit: Alrighty, specifically here are my problems with what you said and pretending your linked video backs up your point
1. The video outright states that the troll does quips, not detailed explanations. Houseman does not fit this all the time. He give some very detailed description. Assuming he is a troll, based on this assessment tools, is a bad assumption
2. Not specifically engaging with Houseman may be a good tactic. Perhaps that's what you meant by your comment. But not specifically engaging with the ideas is terrible.
3. This video is not about 'not reacting.' It's about changing your reaction
4. 'Not engaging' is a reaction in and off itself. It leads to a default win because you were scared off. It encourages trolls

 

[Gordon_4]

When you are a cop and hear on the call that "some guy" (literal phrasing of the caller) is menacing people in a park with a gun and you just drive in and see someone with a realistic gun it's hard to know what it is. Some of my toys growing up looked super realistic too. Thing is, the person making the call should be more mindful of what they're seeing, and not assume it's a real gun when a legit 12 year old is holding it. The issue is that you'd assume it's real and not a toy despite it being in the hands of a kid. Now I dunno if that place had prior issues with child gangs or what, but that's just insane to assume to me.

I don't know if cops are even trained to detect toys from real guns or how to differentiate realistic model guns and pellet guns from real ones, or whether it's even possible to do that without risking your life in the case of it being a real gun in the hands of a bad guy.

The issue is that you shouldn't put the cops in such an untenable situation in the first place, you should make sure you're making an accurate report. Also your first go-to action shouldn't be to call the cops whenever you see something weird. This tattletale attitude some people have is what brings problems in the fore because their misguided opinion becomes the reality the cops have to work under the assumption of.

It is not unreasonable for an unqualified person when seeing something that looks to be a firearm being irresponsibly brandished to inform the constabulary. Because if said constabulary had done their job correctly, nothing would have happened. It would have been confirmed as a toy, a child sent upon his way to play, and a reassured member of the public is thanked for their diligence but in this case no case to answer.

Instead these yahoos managed to murder a 12 year old and didn’t even have the front to say they fucked up. Nope, all above board Joe and Jane Public. No. The death of a child at the hands of an organisation that (allegedly) exists on the pretence of protecting them is a shocking failure.

 

[Houseman]

Apparently, one of these was the fake 1911 held by Tamir, and the other is real.

I just googled "Tamir Rice gun"

I think asking the cops to identify the difference between the two at a glance is unreasonable.

 

[Gordon_4]

Apparently, one of these was the fake 1911 held by Tamir, and the other is real.

I just googled "Tamir Rice gun"

I think asking the cops to identify the difference between the two at a glance is unreasonable.

I don’t think even Gun Jesus himself would be able to tell the difference at a glance. Thankfully police have many other avenues at their disposal to ask the question of someone at a safe distance if the weapon is real. Many tools with which to safeguard their persons and see to it an innocent child does not get shot.

For what it’s worth if I had to take a stab I’d go with the top one is the toy since the sheen and wear on the screws and wooden grip respectively look too good to be just plastic.

 

[Houseman]

For what it’s worth if I had to take a stab I’d go with the top one is the toy since the sheen and wear on the screws and wooden grip respectively look too good to be just plastic.

Yes, I think so too, but my reasoning was that it said "target" on the slide. Not that some real ones also don't, but it just looked suspicious to me.
Searching for "1911 target" brought me to this.

But yes, I agree, the police should have other means available to them for navigating this situation other than rolling up with guns blazing.

Maybe every police car should have bulletproof glass on all windows, so that they can safely use their loudspeakers from within the safety of their vehicle without fear of getting shot.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Apparently, one of these was the fake 1911 held by Tamir, and the other is real.

I just googled "Tamir Rice gun"

I think asking the cops to identify the difference between the two at a glance is unreasonable.

I can. The top one's slide, sights, and safety are all wrong. That being said yes, this is part of why plastic guns tend to (and are supposed to) have orange tipped barrels.

 

[Dreiko]

The top one looks weird to me too, but yeah from a distance you won't be able to tell.

I don’t think even Gun Jesus himself would be able to tell the difference at a glance. Thankfully police have many other avenues at their disposal to ask the question of someone at a safe distance if the weapon is real. Many tools with which to safeguard their persons and see to it an innocent child does not get shot.

For what it’s worth if I had to take a stab I’d go with the top one is the toy since the sheen and wear on the screws and wooden grip respectively look too good to be just plastic.

I actually had a bunch of toy guns with real metal and wood grips and stuff, not just plastic ones. The hammer at the back of the top one though, it looks like it's just ornamental and doesn't actually pull back.

 

[Thaluikhain]

It is not unreasonable for an unqualified person when seeing something that looks to be a firearm being irresponsibly brandished to inform the constabulary. Because if said constabulary had done their job correctly, nothing would have happened. It would have been confirmed as a toy, a child sent upon his way to play, and a reassured member of the public is thanked for their diligence but in this case no case to answer.

While this is true, it should be well-known that there is a not insignificant chance that the police will kill unarmed black people (or other minorities and sometimes not restricted to them, though less frequently), and that calling the police to deal with a situation involving black people will often end with innocent people being murdered. That should factor in the decision to call the police.

 

[SupahEwok]

While this is true, it should be well-known that there is a not insignificant chance that the police will kill unarmed black people (or other minorities and sometimes not restricted to them, though less frequently), and that calling the police to deal with a situation involving black people will often end with innocent people being murdered. That should factor in the decision to call the police.

Provided Houseman has a correct source (a big if), you can look at the picture he posted of the kid's toy, comparing it to a real firearm. I personally could not tell which was real and which was not. I do know that toy guns are supposed to have an orange tip on the barrel for exactly this kind of situation, and this one does not.

If you got somebody running around with something that looks just like a gun, what are you supposed to do? Run up to them and ask to test fire it to see? Or call police? I don't give the caller any blame in this case.

This sounds very much like you didn't watch the video

Edit: Alrighty, specifically here are my problems with what you said and pretending your linked video backs up your point
1. The video outright states that the troll does quips, not detailed explanations. Houseman does not fit this all the time. He give some very detailed description. Assuming he is a troll, based on this assessment tools, is a bad assumption
2. Not specifically engaging with Houseman may be a good tactic. Perhaps that's what you meant by your comment. But not specifically engaging with the ideas is terrible.
3. This video is not about 'not reacting.' It's about changing your reaction
4. 'Not engaging' is a reaction in and off itself. It leads to a default win because you were scared off. It encourages trolls

Frankly this sounds like denial that you guys have let Houseman masturbate himself all over you for two months and continue to enable him doing so. I can't figure out why, personally. It's as if you don't remember his post conduct going back years, before he was banned. He thinks he is a god of reason and rhetoric, and the simple act of arguing fuels him. He will take the worst, most stupid positions just to have something to argue about to "engage in discourse." You guys are absolutely, positively feeding him.

Man, I remember the first week he showed up on Arnox's spin-off free speech forum, he made a thread asking "How Are You Better Than Hitler?" And all the thread was just people posting their reasons why they were better than Hitler, and him arguing about it.

Maybe that's context which I have that you guys are missing, but I honestly don't think you need it.

 

[Chimpzy]

Man, I remember the first week he showed up on Arnox's spin-off free speech forum, he made a thread asking "How Are You Better Than Hitler?" And all the thread was just people posting their reasons why they were better than Hitler, and him arguing about it.

Maybe that's context which I have that you guys are missing, but I honestly don't think you need it.

I remember. I was there too for a bit. Shit went south fast.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Provided Houseman has a correct source (a big if), you can look at the picture he posted of the kid's toy, comparing it to a real firearm. I personally could not tell which was real and which was not. I do know that toy guns are supposed to have an orange tip on the barrel for exactly this kind of situation, and this one does not.

This is absolutely true.

If you got somebody running around with something that looks just like a gun, what are you supposed to do?

I don't have an answer for that.

 

[Houseman]

Man, I remember the first week he showed up on Arnox's spin-off free speech forum, he made a thread asking "How Are You Better Than Hitler?" And all the thread was just people posting their reasons why they were better than Hitler, and him arguing about it.

I remember. I was there too for a bit.

Ha, I forgot all about that! Guess it was just a normal Tuesday for me.

It was really just a way to get at the subjectivity of morality for those who believe in that. "Killing people is wrong? Why? What makes this killing okay and this other one not okay? According to who? Can you prove it?" And so on.

Maybe I'll revisit that topic here.

 

[Kwak]

Maybe I'll revisit that topic here.

Oh joy for all.