Kickstarter Video Project Attracts Misogynist Horde

[Khazoth]

Again, show it. I fail to see any actual examples to anything remotely close to what she does. I did the youtube search and all I found was people raging about the depiction of women as sex objects. I know that, I want to see people actually talking about those tropes that you want to read of from tvtropes. Examples, discussion value, origins. I fail to see any link in your repeating of the same stupid block of text to one or two of those "thousand" of webseries that should exist all over the interwebz.

Not only that, I can't even find every trope she listed on TV Tropes. Only some of the most popular. Come on, stop spitting hot air and contribute something.

Then go to a fucking videogame forum like this one or a feminist forum and make a thread about it. I've been here sporadically for years, I've seen HUNDREDS of them. She's not an expert, not a doctor, she's some chick making an amateur fucking video series. Textual debates are better than one-sided statements of facts and opinions and you can easily provide and check sources.
Or check for these things yourself, FOR FREE, instead of getting a biased paraphrased reading of half-baked sources.
And those tvtrope pages have deeper discussions in the examples and the comment pages.
Or have her create her series and give her money based on the quality of the product she delivers.[/quote]

Examples of people talking about sexism in gaming? Really? There are more links but i'm fairly sure if I posted them all my brain, and this thread, would explode. I found all of this videos in less then five seconds, on the first page of search results, and there were soooo many more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU0XPZ4PIEs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rysSEiBO9g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_9nj-Xngpc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4l5W4O2EBM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7CBn9Oq6w0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDoqqddw-SQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIAgXsKcMmU

 

[Khazoth]

Examples of people talking about sexism in gaming? Really? There are more links but i'm fairly sure if I posted them all my brain, and this thread, would explode. I found all of this videos in less then five seconds, on the first page of search results, and there were soooo many more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU0XPZ4PIEs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rysSEiBO9g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_9nj-Xngpc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4l5W4O2EBM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7CBn9Oq6w0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDoqqddw-SQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIAgXsKcMmU[/quote]

 

[Angryman101]

Did you not read the part where I said: "She asked for 6,000. She's putting it up for everyone to watch for free. I can easily see where 6,000 dollars would go in the production she described. Games, platforms she might not have, big heavy books and other sources that don't run cheap, lights, upkeep on the camera, software, lots of things. Plus the hours of work one would put into the the thing. That much for what she wants to do makes sense with market standards."

Look into real video production, find out how much the good stuff costs, (camera, microphone, lights, sound proofing), look at game platforms and the games themselves, find how much that costs, look into time spent researching and script writing and editing, look into someone who knows how to edit video and find out the going rate per hour of work. Look into how much standard editing software goes for, especially the annual renewable licences for using it commercially. You guys have no idea. Noooooo idea. This is meant to be professional level, not the at home webcam "anyone can do it" kind of production. Get that idea out of your head.

Yes I read that part. Yes I know how much video equipment costs; I worked extensively with the stuff in college. I am an editor and know the going rate.
Problems with that: she can use a cell phone recorder, or a camera that costs a couple hundred bucks. She can use home lighting. She can use a mic that costs maybe $60.
She's not trying to make the fucking Avengers movie, she's filming herself talking about bullshit. Plus, you can see from her other videos that she already has equipment leaps and bounds ahead of most people.
She is doing what hundreds of people have done before her. They all did it FOR FREE, and got money afterwords based on the quality of what they produced. She is cheating the system for a shitty, bullshit cause and that makes me angry.

 

[Phasmal]

A lot of this is becoming `Stop spending money on things I DON'T LIKE!`.

Deal with it. People will spend their money on what they will- getting all angry about it just makes you look petulant.

 

[Kahunaburger]

I'm not whining,

She is cheating the system for a shitty, bullshit cause and that makes me angry.

Show, don't tell.

Honestly, I have no idea why people still bring up the "but... but... they can do it at a slightly lower quality for free!" thing. Yahtzee could make ZP videos for free. He doesn't, because people find them entertaining (and occasionally insightful) and they bring in ad revenue. This leads to more ZP videos of higher production quality. Is there a problem, here?

 

[Scars Unseen]

And ovendodger... going to have to file that one away. I'd love to use that one on my wife just so she could remind me that we don't own an oven... Well either that or she'd punch me. Could go either way.

...

Well if you want to tell her she should have died in the Holocaust for being Jewish that would be the right thing to say -__-

Ah. Well no wonder I never heard that one. Sexist jokes are all fine and dandy(among my female friends only, and with the caveat that I may get punched for telling them), but I tend to draw the line at making fun of mass murder. My apologies.

 

[nasteypenguin]

These stereotypes revolve around this idea of men being the ultimate ideal.

I think I understand what you mean by the "ultimate man" archetype, being big and tough and unemotional; but is that not just the easiest way to portray a capable, independent and strong willed character? I personally would assume it is, and it would mean the "burly female stereotype" is not born of sexism but from inherent lack of originality in story telling.
I would suggest that some of the sexism your seeing in games isn't about ignorance or prejudice, it's simply another consequence of poor writing in mainstream games.

Also, I think your whole evil guy stereotype is a bit flawed; wizards are abundant in protagonists and good guys, even being a standard class in most rpgs. Most of them are portrayed as wise and intellectual people, both very good attributes. Take Gandalf for example; he doesn't seem to fit into this manly ideal, but he's a hugely well received and idealised male character.

Is it not just a case of trying to portray a women's figure in a physically exceptional way, which is what muscles are well known to do, that the "burly" image appears. It just so happens that men also need muscles to be shown as physically strong as well. Athletic bodies would seem to fall into the sexy category, being one of the most sexualised figures.

I'm a guy, so I obviously have much less understanding of sexism against females than any woman, but I don't believe the "women needing to be manly to be accepted" concept exists. Indeed, I don't think the term "manly" exists, surely since men and women are of equal capabilities, distinguishing something as unwomanly because men are known to portray it is the very definition of sexism. You seem to be suggesting women need to be portrayed as something utterly different in order to be shown as equal.

 

[Angryman101]

So you don't have an actual example and just spew a lot of hot air. So there are not thousands of aequivalent webseries that cover that topics for free but just threads like this and tv tropes.

If I look at her education and previous series (Tropes vs Woman) she seems a lot more qualified to talk about this topic than you who'll just read the shit from TV Tropes instead of putting any thought into it.

So. You just want to ***** without any actual argument, heh?

What's her educational background? Please, please, PLEASE tell me it's something to do with gender studies. The barking of my harsh, mocking laughter will fill these halls.
And you have absolutely no idea who I am and how qualified I am to talk about anything. What was that about hot air? And as for examples, please. Look at this guy's post.

Examples of people talking about sexism in gaming? Really? There are more links but i'm fairly sure if I posted them all my brain, and this thread, would explode. I found all of this videos in less then five seconds, on the first page of search results, and there were soooo many more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU0XPZ4PIEs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rysSEiBO9g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_9nj-Xngpc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4l5W4O2EBM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7CBn9Oq6w0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDoqqddw-SQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIAgXsKcMmU

There are some examples. As I said, I don't care enough to actually look anything up.
I have a pretty good argument, actually, you just don't seem to be able to comprehend it. Her success is an example of feminism warping conventional capitalism to something of a cruel mockery.
That being said, she is pretty attractive. She looks like one of the girls that would insist that she doesn't need a man when she stays over than then calls or texts you days later wondering why you haven't talked to her.

 

[godofslack]

For my sanity's sake I like to think that all the stupid comments on youtube are caused by a god, with a million arms, that has nothing better to do than troll.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Show me a web series that costs $70,000. It can be about anything you want, it just has to not be a "professional" effort. Go on, try.

Presumably the $70,000 extra money is going to be spent on something other than camera equipment. Likely a charity or some type of education-related product involved with the documentary.

But I can give you a couple [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation] examples [http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/show/extra-credits] of vidya gaem related webseries with budgets well in excess of this project's requested $6,000.

 

[Angryman101]

Show, don't tell.

Honestly, I have no idea why people still bring up the "but... but... they can do it at a slightly lower quality for free!" thing. Yahtzee could make ZP videos for free. He doesn't, because people find them entertaining (and occasionally insightful) and they bring in ad revenue. This leads to more ZP videos of higher production quality. Is there a problem, here?

I guess explaining my position counts as whining when I don't agree with you, eh, buddy?
Yahtzee was offered money to do what he does after he created videos that were interesting and new-for free. You...you basically just gave the perfect example for my entire argument. Th-thanks, kahuna.

 

[Angryman101]

Show me a web series that costs $70,000. It can be about anything you want, it just has to not be a "professional" effort. Go on, try.

Presumably the $70,000 extra money is going to be spent on something other than camera equipment. Likely a charity or some type of education-related product involved with the documentary.

But I can give you a couple [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation] examples [http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/show/extra-credits] of vidya gaem related webseries with budgets well in excess of this project's requested $6,000.

Those are called 'salaries', chum. They made a quality product and were then money was bequeathed upon them.

 

[Furrama]

Did you not read the part where I said: "She asked for 6,000. She's putting it up for everyone to watch for free. I can easily see where 6,000 dollars would go in the production she described. Games, platforms she might not have, big heavy books and other sources that don't run cheap, lights, upkeep on the camera, software, lots of things. Plus the hours of work one would put into the the thing. That much for what she wants to do makes sense with market standards."

Look into real video production, find out how much the good stuff costs, (camera, microphone, lights, sound proofing), look at game platforms and the games themselves, find how much that costs, look into time spent researching and script writing and editing, look into someone who knows how to edit video and find out the going rate per hour of work. Look into how much standard editing software goes for, especially the annual renewable licences for using it commercially. You guys have no idea. Noooooo idea. This is meant to be professional level, not the at home webcam "anyone can do it" kind of production. Get that idea out of your head.

Yes I read that part. Yes I know how much video equipment costs; I worked extensively with the stuff in college. I am an editor and know the going rate.
Problems with that: she can use a cell phone recorder, or a camera that costs a couple hundred bucks. She can use home lighting. She can use a mic that costs maybe $60.
She's not trying to make the fucking Avengers movie, she's filming herself talking about bullshit. Plus, you can see from her other videos that she already has equipment leaps and bounds ahead of most people.
She is doing what hundreds of people have done before her. They all did it FOR FREE, and got money afterwords based on the quality of what they produced. She is cheating the system for a shitty, bullshit cause and that makes me angry.

See, this all boils down to one thing: You don't see the problem in front of your face. You said so yourself, you called it BS. You don't empathize with the girls and women who play games or who would if the medium wasn't so offputting at times. It's all been said you say. I agreed with you, and told you why that was. You say she's cheating the system. What system? Who put that there? Why are you making up rules that we must abide by? Again, this is Kickstarter. It is working as intended.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

The money and materials are secondary to your anger. You're angry that there are people who disagree with you. People willing to put their money on it. Hey, because of you I just donated $25 dollars. Not because it was needed, but because I wanted to give to the cause. I expect nothing back really, all I want is discussion and to weed out some of these silly notions, and bring some of this crap out into the light where adults can shame you back into your rooms. Hey look, we're getting that without the videos right now.

There is a problem. It exists. Lets talk about it some more, because it's obviously not taken root.

 

[Scars Unseen]

Did you not read the part where I said: "She asked for 6,000. She's putting it up for everyone to watch for free. I can easily see where 6,000 dollars would go in the production she described. Games, platforms she might not have, big heavy books and other sources that don't run cheap, lights, upkeep on the camera, software, lots of things. Plus the hours of work one would put into the the thing. That much for what she wants to do makes sense with market standards."

Look into real video production, find out how much the good stuff costs, (camera, microphone, lights, sound proofing), look at game platforms and the games themselves, find how much that costs, look into time spent researching and script writing and editing, look into someone who knows how to edit video and find out the going rate per hour of work. Look into how much standard editing software goes for, especially the annual renewable licences for using it commercially. You guys have no idea. Noooooo idea. This is meant to be professional level, not the at home webcam "anyone can do it" kind of production. Get that idea out of your head.

Yes I read that part. Yes I know how much video equipment costs; I worked extensively with the stuff in college. I am an editor and know the going rate.
Problems with that: she can use a cell phone recorder, or a camera that costs a couple hundred bucks. She can use home lighting. She can use a mic that costs maybe $60.
She's not trying to make the fucking Avengers movie, she's filming herself talking about bullshit. Plus, you can see from her other videos that she already has equipment leaps and bounds ahead of most people.
She is doing what hundreds of people have done before her. They all did it FOR FREE, and got money afterwords based on the quality of what they produced. She is cheating the system for a shitty, bullshit cause and that makes me angry.

To be fair, your sentiment is countered by three things:

1) The same could be said of (nearly) every other project on Kickstarter. People tend to start small and, if they're very very lucky, bring in enough money that their next project can be bigger. And if they somehow beat the odds, or manage to predict the markets and intentionally create The Next Big Thing, they'll have the money and the clout to make their dream project after 10 to 20 years of hard, often thankless work.

2) The entire point of Kickstarter is to give people a chance to break from the investor controlled world that makes the above true.

3) If people didn't want her to succeed she would not have been able to raise the funds. Vote with your wallet and leave others to vote with theirs.

 

[Angryman101]

snip

Yeah, I don't give a fuck about what you write. You are here to whine and don't contribute anything. I don't give a fuck who you are since all you did is repeat the same BS all over again without any actual arguments to back it up or any efford to back up your own claims. And you care enough to whine about it for several pages.

I'm looking through Kazoths stuff right now but unlike you he actually did some work I did not ask him to do because he did not keep repeating the same 3 sentences over several sites like you did.

Good night.

Hahahaha, careful, missy, your mad is showing. Nice job turning to ad hominem when you couldn't rebuff my points.

 

[Khazoth]

Show me a web series that costs $70,000. It can be about anything you want, it just has to not be a "professional" effort. Go on, try.

Presumably the $70,000 extra money is going to be spent on something other than camera equipment. Likely a charity or some type of education-related product involved with the documentary.

But I can give you a couple [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation] examples [http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/show/extra-credits] of vidya gaem related webseries with budgets well in excess of this project's requested $6,000.

Neither of those series required +6,000. Penny Arcade simply required a website and a loose definition of the word 'talent.'

And Yahtzee? He made two of these videos before being picked up by the escapist when he was, as he describes, poor.

There is a difference between a webseries that COSTS money to create and a webseries that GENERATES money and expands into different territory.

 

[dementis]

I still think we should approach gender equality through making male characters sex objects for women, have games where characters like Dante, Nathan Drake and all the other ruggedly handsome can unlock a topless option.

Even though Juliet Starling is dressed as a cheerleader I think they have the right idea in having the male character as the helpless one being protected by his girlfriend, that doesn't sound too sexist to me.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Yahtzee was offered money to do what he does after he created videos that were interesting and new-for free.

Which is exactly what happened with this kickstarter, as well. People wouldn't be throwing $70,000 dollars at this documentary if FF hadn't built up credibility.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Neither of those series required +6,000. Penny Arcade simply required a website and a loose definition of the word 'talent.'

Remember the Extra Credits/Escapist controversy? Particularly the part that related to the money due to EC (considerably more than $6,000) that hadn't been paid to them?

And Yahtzee? He made two of these videos before being picked up by the escapist when he was, as he describes, poor.

And I'm sure he'd totally be able to make them at the current rate and production value if he wasn't compensated.

There is a difference between a webseries that COSTS money to create and a webseries that GENERATES money and expands into different territory.

What does that even mean?

 

[Angryman101]

To be fair, your sentiment is countered by three things:

1) The same could be said of (nearly) every other project on Kickstarter. People tend to start small and, if they're very very lucky, bring in enough money that their next project can be bigger. And if they somehow beat the odds, or manage to predict the markets and intentionally create The Next Big Thing, they'll have the money and the clout to make their dream project after 10 to 20 years of hard, often thankless work.

2) The entire point of Kickstarter is to give people a chance to break from the investor controlled world that makes the above true.

3) If people didn't want her to succeed she would not have been able to raise the funds. Vote with your wallet and leave others to vote with theirs.

1. I kind of support kickstarter projects that ACTUALLY require money to be started, like the Schaffer game. That being said, I'm not a fan of kickstarter in general, as people should have to produce quality content BEFORE people start throwing money at them. Proving your worth is something that should be done. This woman has not proved her worth, she just recycles tired arguments about dumb shit. Schaffer produced quality content in Day of the Tentacle and Psychonauts.
2. Pretty much answered with 1.
3. People want their views validated with other people who share their views. This is more why she's succeeding than anything she's produced. That and I'm convinced the last $20k she's raised is to spite the idiots on youtube and the like.