Kid Becomes "Little Zangief" in Response to Bullying

[4173]

Yes, it is still possible for the gang attack, but it changes the nature of the conflict. Kids that may be fine with bullying may shy away from literal assault and battery.

Yes, Casey could have killed the kid. But bullying kills kids too, full stop. Why are you so you concerned about worst case consequences for the bully, but not the victim? Everyone is talking about hypothetical cases here.

Because one is hypothetical in the respect that no steps have been taken and no evidence has been shown that it will ever occur in the future.

And the other is an action that already happened and could have easily resulted in death had the head landed like, 1 inch shifted in the wrong direction.

Any guy I pass on the street could hypothetically some day kill me with a baseball bat, that doesn't mean I'm justified to drop them on their head because of some very unlikely hypothetical scenario in which they one day kill me.

A kid has been bullied. That right there is steps that have been taken and evidence it could occur in the future.

In fact, since the bullying predates Casey's attack some of those actions had already happened and could have resulted in the death of a kid or kids.

No, you can't drop a random passerby, even if he is carrying a bat. But if he is swinging that bat at you, absolutely you can drop him.

Would it have been better if his physical response was something a bit less life threatening? Yes, it would have. If the bully had died it certainly would have been tragic, but I don't think there is strong evidence that Casey acted with malice. This isn't a case of shooting a fleeing robber in the back. I think you're holding him to too high a standard, if they were both adults your case would be much stronger.

Something you just said there was interesting "if they both were adults your case would be stronger"

Does that mean you're saying his mistake is understandable because he's a kid? Because if so you basically just agreed with my whole argument.

If you rewind to the front of this, I never said Casey should be jailed, all I said was he should not be treated like a hero for this, if you think this action is something that someone with the judgment of an adult shouldn't do, then surely you agree this kid isn't some sort of hero who should be praised for what he did.

I had a pretty serious argument with some of the people living on my floor yesterday, and they are very pissed at me, that shows evidence of a tiny step taken toward them ganging up on me and killing me, should I piledrive one of them?

Almost. He isn't a hero for the specific attack he used, no. But since he is a kid, I think we can separate the action from the act. Standing up for himself in a more or less reasonable way; he had tried non-violent responses, he didn't jump the kid from behind, he didn't use a weapon, he didn't kill himself, he didn't continue the attack. Because of those factors, I think we can applaud part of what he did, while also trying to teach him (because he is a kid) that wasn't an ideal kind of physical defense.

I'll assume you're a legal adult, it which case that sort of separation is almost certainly not warranted. You would also be making a pre-meditated, preemptive attack, a completely different context from Casey's case.

So a kid who does something that the average adult should know not to do makes him a hero? Just how stupid are kids anyway that they can fit into the category of "child hero" and "below average adult" at the same time?

I don't think we can separate the action from the act at all, he wasn't like 7 years old, he should know right from wrong, and the way he stood up for himself wasn't reasonable, but for the grace of luck it was manslaughter.

I would be one of this kids most avid supporters if he grabbed the kid and called a teacher, or even punched him in the face hard, but this could have killed him, and I can't applaud that.

I would not use the word hero. Taken as a whole, kids are much rasher than adults, less able to make distinctions (see shades of grey), tend toward viewing the world in absolutes and have a less developed moral sense.

In the absence of clear evidence, I would not expect a ~13 year old to have the same cognitive abilities as an adult. It isn't about right or wrong per se, but an ability to understand all ramifications and implications of an action. Things they may say are wrong in the abstract can look right in their case. That's why in this case, I think some separation is appropriate, and some aspects can be condemned and some applauded.

Because of those factors in my previous post, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. The piledriver was just the quickest, most effective way he could think of to stop the attack. I don't think injury was intended (or injury in the sense that it will stop him, not in the sense that he wants him to be hurt). To over simplify slightly, I really doubt he was capable of preforming manslaughter, in a legal sense, at that moment.

Perhaps you've read more about this particular incident, and Casey is one of the kids more developed than others. I freely admit I may be wrong in my estimation.

If you disagree about youth cognition, or you see intent or malice where I don't, then I don't think there's much more to say. I don't want to do the work to get psychological literature, and it wouldn't be fair to either of us to argue about general child psychology if I didn't.

 

[shadow shogun]

Wish I knew what a piledriver when I was 10 8(

In Scotland all I knew was the classic headbutt and kick in the balls.

We must have trained at the same dojo then.

 

[Firia]

I'm seeing a lot of posts in the tail end of this thread about what Casey COULD have done differently that wouldn't result in possibly killing his assailant. In Caseys own words, he didn't think, but rather just snapped.

There's an interview, both text and video, where Casey talks about his experiences with being bullied, and how this event has been years in the making. New York daily News interview with Casey. [http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2011/03/20/2011-03-20_australian_teen_who_attacked_bully_in_youtube_video_says_he_just_snapped.html?r=news]

Fight or flight responses are primal, and are not subject to logical thinking. It can be mastered with experience; take military training for example, or professional fighters. But Casey is a 10th grade boy. He, like thousands others, is a victim of bullying, and driven into a corner retaliated when those primal instincts kicked in. We all have them, these instincts. Everyone can go on about what Casey could have done differently, and even Casey has admitted that he never meant to do something so potentially lethal; we might all do the same thing given the same scenario. Some people commit suicide, some people run away, some people endure.

Caseys response was primal, and I don't blame him for his reaction.

 

[RaikuFA]

Oh come on, Anonymous... DDOSing the school? Why?

It's not constructive, impressive, or even that difficult. It doesn't do anything useful, and is the equivalent of randomly punching people in the street when you see them do something slightly antisocial.

cause the victim is being punished as well. its like arresing a rape victim who was raped in a alleyway for public sex

 

[Grubnar]

"Naked force has resolved more issues throughout history than any other factor."

I was bullied in school. It stopped when I cought the instigator alone one day and beat him.
That WORKED. Talking did NOT.

So maybe I am biased because of my personal experience, but that is how I see it. Casey was right to fight back.

While sometimes direct force is necessary when talking isn't an option, it should be your first course of action. Societies that only value force over reasoning and dialog usually end up like the various territories in Africa where people kill each other, hold power for a while and eventually end up like their predecessors, dead.

I stabbed a kid in middle school (with a fork) because he kept messing with me and that was only after several attempts to get him to leave me alone. I just can't get behind the idea that violence is the only way to resolve an issue as seemed to be the case in the novel and movie Starship Troopers. Such a philosophy only seems to create temporary peace and only sets the stage for even more conflict later on.

Even though the movie is not at all like the book in most regards, it does make a few very good points despite beeing silly and exadurated (hey, it's Paul Verhoven!).

You are right. Violence should never be the first course of action. But in my case this had been going on for quite some time, and no ammount of talking seemed to have any effect.
So I did what I did, and after that the bastard left me alone. It is not what I wanted to do, really, I am a peacefull, non-violent guy (famously so even) maybe that was why I was singled out. But I cant argue about the results.

English is not my first (or even second) language and i am not really good at expressing myself in writing, but I hope I am not comming of as someone that promotes violence, or belives it is the solution to all our problems.

 

[G-Force]

I'm going to say the same thing to you that I say to everyone who tries to pull what you just did, if you lie to me, I have no interest in debating further with you.

In the frame there was one kid, and two girls watching who then left, surrounded my ass.

There's at least three people involved, Bully kid, camera kid and tall kid in the frame. Sure he wasn't surrounded but he was outnumbered and those other kids were relishing at Casey's misfortune. Listen to the video where one kid was saying "keep recording" and "this is getting sad bro" all while laughing.

So what do you say to the people who you accuse of lying when in all actuality they've been correct so far?

 

[ecoho]

So we're celebrating and praising a kid for pile-driving a smaller kid into the ground?

No. We are praising self-defense. Notice that after a bully got thrown on the ground, that kid just walked away, while he could beat him up some more. I respect him for that.

Still, he could have killed the kid if he had dropped him on his head. Responding to a violent person with more violence is natural, but it's not necessary. If Casey didn't retaliate and the video made it onto the internet, then the bully would have no doubt been expelled and his friends suspended.

you were never bullied were you?
if you were you would know that this does NOT stop till you make them. the system in place doesnt work these kids would probily have said he started it and the teachers would have beleaved them due to the fact there are more of them.

Alright no, this is not alright.

We all want to stand up to bullies, and a good punch to the face would have been great, but this could have literally killed the guy if he landed just a little bit differently.

It is sheer luck this didn't become a story about a murder, so no, it's not alright, I sympathize with the kid, and I do think he should have retaliated, but we shouldn't be praising him for using force that could have easily been lethal.

i aggree that this could have gone bad but if he had killed the prick (and yes he is a prick) it would have been manslauter in self defense. Now if this would of happened it would of been tragic that a kid who was bullied killed someone when he didnt mean to but to be fair had it happened it was his own fault and while tragic would have been fully suported by my slef and most people i know.

So bullying means you deserve to get murdered? You'd support murder in response to bullying? Seriously?

I get that capital punishment is a hot debate recently, but capital punishment for schoolyard bullying isn't a debate that anyone is having.

I think you need to get your priorities straight, do you want to live in a world where someone is justified to murder a school bully?

It would certainly cut down on the bullying.

Yeah, murder tends to cut down a lot of things, except maybe the amount of weeping family members, and the amount of murderers.

i support manslauter in self defense which is what this would be. Not by any means would this be murder. As i said before it would have been tragic for the kid who was bullied not for the kid who did it i have absolutely NO pity for the bully himself people like that cause suicides and as far as im conserned deserve to be beaten to a pulp then draged through the streets.

Self defense only counts when you use only the force necessary to keep yourself safe, once he was holding the kid down he was safe, and then could have yelled for a teacher, dropping him on his head was beyond the force necessary to keep him safe, and thus no longer self defense in they eyes of the law.

wrong in the eyes of the law if you are attacked you are allowed to use any force you deem needed to defend yourself. in this case he did what he thought he needed to to keep the bully from attacking him again my friend thats self defense. as to calling for a teacher and holding him down, he would most likely be blamed for starting the fight and get the harsher punishment. He should have punched him a few times after he through him to make sure he didnt come after him again but he held back and walked away which makes him the better person

 

[Tharwen]

Oh come on, Anonymous... DDOSing the school? Why?

It's not constructive, impressive, or even that difficult. It doesn't do anything useful, and is the equivalent of randomly punching people in the street when you see them do something slightly antisocial.

cause the victim is being punished as well. its like arresing a rape victim who was raped in a alleyway for public sex

Yeah... but the victim then stabbed the attacker through the chest.

 

[MrGameluvr92]

Wow, I think Little Zangief just gave a whole new meaning to the term "getting pwned!"

Bravo, Casey. Bravo.

 

[arkwright]

HMMMM group of bully's decide to pick on the fat kid. fat kid fights back. good. and all this bollocks about there are better ways to deals with these sort of situations, bollocks, until you have been there or seen it you dont know shit.

 

[TiefBlau]

HMMMM group of bully's decide to pick on the fat kid. fat kid fights back. good. and all this bollocks about there are better ways to deals with these sort of situations, bollocks, until you have been there or seen it you dont know shit.

Because you've been there and you've seen it and therefore you're in a position to judge.

 

[RaikuFA]

Oh come on, Anonymous... DDOSing the school? Why?

It's not constructive, impressive, or even that difficult. It doesn't do anything useful, and is the equivalent of randomly punching people in the street when you see them do something slightly antisocial.

cause the victim is being punished as well. its like arresing a rape victim who was raped in a alleyway for public sex

Yeah... but the victim then stabbed the attacker through the chest.

theres actual stories where thats happened. thats whats wrong with this world, "punish the victim the attacker gets off scott free"

least thats how it was for me

 

[4173]

Oh come on, Anonymous... DDOSing the school? Why?

It's not constructive, impressive, or even that difficult. It doesn't do anything useful, and is the equivalent of randomly punching people in the street when you see them do something slightly antisocial.

cause the victim is being punished as well. its like arresing a rape victim who was raped in a alleyway for public sex

I don't see how the school could do anything else. They need to make an effort to deter violence being the default response to bullying. If they make an exception for Casey, in the future they will be forced to judge whether a child has suffered sufficiently to respond with force.

I think the school acted pretty reasonably, giving him 4 days and the other kid 21. Hopefully they suspended the film maker too.

 

[agnosticOCD]

So much win... I think suspension is fine, but 21 days a bit too long. He still did risk breaking the bully's neck and possibly killing him, but then, I think he's definitely awesome for making sure that nobody can shit on him anymore and get it noticed.

THE AUTHORITEH!

 

[Tharwen]

Oh come on, Anonymous... DDOSing the school? Why?

It's not constructive, impressive, or even that difficult. It doesn't do anything useful, and is the equivalent of randomly punching people in the street when you see them do something slightly antisocial.

cause the victim is being punished as well. its like arresing a rape victim who was raped in a alleyway for public sex

Yeah... but the victim then stabbed the attacker through the chest.

theres actual stories where thats happened. thats whats wrong with this world, "punish the victim the attacker gets off scott free"

least thats how it was for me

That aside, attacking the school achieved nothing.

Also, I doubt the attacker got off scot-free in this case. I bet his head hurts...

 

[Gindil]

Oh come on, Anonymous... DDOSing the school? Why?

It's not constructive, impressive, or even that difficult. It doesn't do anything useful, and is the equivalent of randomly punching people in the street when you see them do something slightly antisocial.

cause the victim is being punished as well. its like arresing a rape victim who was raped in a alleyway for public sex

I don't see how the school could do anything else. They need to make an effort to deter violence being the default response to bullying. If they make an exception for Casey, in the future they will be forced to judge whether a child has suffered sufficiently to respond with force.

I think the school acted pretty reasonably, giving him 4 days and the other kid 21. Hopefully they suspended the film maker too.

That's a pretty unfair policy though...

If anything, I would say you need to judge each situation based on merit. I hate to sound cliche, but we're surrounded by violence in various ways. To say that Casey needs to be deterred from a fight that he didn't cause and that had been building up within him seems to give off the wrong message, that you effectively have to become a punching bag or go to someone else to protect you.

Eventually, the best way to handle bullies is to stand up to them in a number of ways.

Personally, if I had a child, and they told me about the escalation that was coming up from them targeting them on numerous occasions, I would tell them to single out one of them and beat the ever loving TAR out of him. If they won't leave you alone, then they'll keep trying to torment you. And that's just retarded to sit and take.

 

[4173]

Oh come on, Anonymous... DDOSing the school? Why?

It's not constructive, impressive, or even that difficult. It doesn't do anything useful, and is the equivalent of randomly punching people in the street when you see them do something slightly antisocial.

cause the victim is being punished as well. its like arresing a rape victim who was raped in a alleyway for public sex

I don't see how the school could do anything else. They need to make an effort to deter violence being the default response to bullying. If they make an exception for Casey, in the future they will be forced to judge whether a child has suffered sufficiently to respond with force.

I think the school acted pretty reasonably, giving him 4 days and the other kid 21. Hopefully they suspended the film maker too.

That's a pretty unfair policy though...

If anything, I would say you need to judge each situation based on merit. I hate to sound cliche, but we're surrounded by violence in various ways. To say that Casey needs to be deterred from a fight that he didn't cause and that had been building up within him seems to give off the wrong message, that you effectively have to become a punching bag or go to someone else to protect you.

Eventually, the best way to handle bullies is to stand up to them in a number of ways.

Personally, if I had a child, and they told me about the escalation that was coming up from them targeting them on numerous occasions, I would tell them to single out one of them and beat the ever loving TAR out of him. If they won't leave you alone, then they'll keep trying to torment you. And that's just retarded to sit and take.

Casey doesn't need to be deterred from a fight (hopefully). The other students need to be deterred from a fight. Yes, sometimes the best way to handle bullies is violence, but you can't have kids fighting anytime there's a hurt feeling. If you don't punish Casey a bit, next time (a different kid) won't be on tape and the victim will say "I was just as threatened as Casey," or "My life sucks as much as Casey's." It would be a terrible situation where the school would end up telling some kids they hadn't suffered enough to fight. Pretty soon you'd need a jury trial for every fist fight.

It is about the message the school at large needs to send. Just like the Gotham Police can't say "yay Batman!" even when they work with him.

 

[lizards]

good for that kid, and again im becoming slowly more impressed with some of anons new causes

 

[Michael826]

This is all I have to say on the matter. Go Casey!