Kotor and the Jedi in general (spoilers?)

[Magnus Hellman]

So i got my hands on a copy of KOTOR 1 for the pc the other day and played through it, but then i came to the shocking twist! (i.e you're Revan, the jedi just mind-fucked you to make sure you'd defeat Malak and never return to the dark side again. hehe fat chance.)

Now this made me stop and think for a while, (after turning to the dark-side and killing everyone but Bastila, the mercenary and the droids.)
Do the jedi really belive in free will?
because they seem very keen on making sure no-one turns to the dark side. by any means necessary!


so what to do you guys think do the jedi believe in free will or will they sieze every opportunity to further their goals?



NOTE: still love the game though.

 

[Zack Alklazaris]

The Jedi don't believe in free will for themselves. There goal is to become pure force without the "human" element such as emotion.

I guess it sort of sounds like the Vulcans in Star Trek.

However, the Jedi believe in defending free will of others. IE: Protecting the Rebulic. Only Dark Jedi, Grey Jedi, and Sith will use any means necessary to achieve their goals. Jedi will use manipulation or other tactics, but they wont kill innocent people to get their way.

Damn you Bioware and your Codex!

 

[Polarity27]

Honestly, it's contradictory. There's plenty of canon to the effect that a Jedi has to be free to choose his/her own course (particularly in the inspiration for KOTOR, the Tales of the Jedi comics and radio plays), yet the minute they choose the dark side the Jedi basically drop a bridge on their head. Hell, the minute you oppose a Jedi it becomes "Jedi business" (remember Obi-Wan's scene in AOTC?) and there's no trial, no justice process, just imprisonment or execution by the Jedi.

This is the problem with having an extrajudicial magicoreligious cult have so much power. They *are* the law, and it's completely secretive and opaque.

 

[Magnus Hellman]

yes that's another thing that struck me, no-one supervises the jedi witch is why they're a danger to the galaxy i suppose. (if they turn to the dark side that is.)

 

[Ordinaryundone]

You have to remember, Dark Jedi are not natural. They are an abberation; a deliberate corruption of the Force and representative of an imbalance in the natural order of things. Which is why "good" Jedi are fine while Sith become sickly and have their features distorted. They aren`t trying to surpress free will, they are trying to stop the perversion and misuse of the most powerful force (lol) in the galaxy.

As for the belief in free will, many Jedi actually do not. While you are free to do what you want, the Force tends to guide people along paths and destinies that they can`t really get away from. Prophecy is a big deal for them, and they take it seriously.

 

[Magnus Hellman]

That's the conclusion that i had also reached before the whole revan thing.
But my opinion changed because in that matter i would have rather died than become some tool for a self-righteous know-it-all council.

 

[ms_sunlight]

Welcome to the realisation that the Star Wars mythology is full of contradictory crap! Why should evil be ugly? Does it not lead one to assume that ugly is therefore evil? The association of spiritual corruption with physical corruption is outdated and offensive.

Also, the Jedi are often arseholes, and while they might say they are on the side of the light they often act in manners that are explicitly hateful and small-minded. The treatment of Revan, the Jedi Exile and other veterans of the Mandalorian Wars in the KotOR games is a great example of this.

 

[spartandude]

But my opinion changed because in that matter i would have rather died than become some tool for a self-righteous know-it-all council.

this sums up my feelings

 

[Da Orky Man]

Welcome to the realisation that the Star Wars mythology is full of contradictory crap! Why should evil be ugly? Does it not lead one to assume that ugly is therefore evil? The association of spiritual corruption with physical corruption is outdated and offensive.

Also, the Jedi are often arseholes, and while they might say they are on the side of the light they often act in manners that are explicitly hateful and small-minded. The treatment of Revan, the Jedi Exile and other veterans of the Mandalorian Wars in the KotOR games is a great example of this.

Which is pretty much why I prefer the Old Republic stuff over any of the movies or books. They show just what buggers the Jedi can be.

 

[Magnus Hellman]

@ms_sunlight
I find it strays from the original where luke is often trying to convert vader rather than fighting him, wheras the jedi in KOTOR tend to have way to much fighting going on for them.

wouldn't it be better if the jedi just tried to keep to them self?

that seems to be what they're trying to do in the prequels.

 

[DustyDrB]

You should really play KotOR II. It faces this question head on.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

One of the big aspects of the Expanded Universe, is that the Jedi Order was fundamentally flawed. It is through these contradictions that the Jedi fell. The sith discovered how they could manipulate the Jedi Order to corrupt and weaken the Jedi, who were so tightly bound to their code that they failed to see what was happening in front of them.

You should really play KotOR II. It faces this question head on.

This is also another reason.

 

[Magnus Hellman]

i'm hoping to get it as a B-day present to morrow.

 

[Magnus Hellman]

You should really play KotOR II. It faces this question head on.

i'm hoping to get it as a B-day present to morrow.


NOTE: sorry bout the double post don't know if i can remove the previos one.

 

[spartandude]

for me the bit when i questioned morality was not only finding out about revan, but also on korriban when that sith trainer tells you what the sith actually stand for and they arnt inherintly evil, just most of them are, and you start to think whether the sith may be better

 

[Joccaren]

Ahh, but the twist from KotOR 2: Nobody has any real free will anyway.

Spoiler

It is only caught onto by one character - Kreia - but the force isn't something like electricity - there for us to harness and do with what we will. No, it is almost the opposite. We are more like the electricity - with the force harnessing us and doing with us what we will.
Every time a Jedi wins a battle, it is because the force wanted him to to maintain balance.
Every time a planet falls to the Sith, it is because the force wanted it to to maintain balance.
Every time that someone says they can't see beyond the fog of the future, or that someone sees the future and learns some amazing secret - it is the force manipulating them to help maintain balance.
Kreia goes for the extreme route and tries to destroy the force entirely to free everyone from its grasp, you stop it.
It was a subplot written by Mr Lucas from memory, but discarded and not included for some reason or other.
Quite an interesting twist to the whole thing don't you think?

 

[raklin]

I actually don't see it as a spectrum of good and evil - I see it as a spectrum of order and chaos.
The Jedi force their emotions away, seemingly living to enforce the Jedi Code, and always rising up to crush those force-users who believe differently (Hell, the dark jedi broke off and fled to the furthest corner of the galaxy just so they could have freedom of belief)

The sith, on the other hand are decadent, wallowing in their emotions, acting on their slightest whim. They fight the Jedi for their own survival as a quasi-religious breakaway sect.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

Welcome to the realisation that the Star Wars mythology is full of contradictory crap! Why should evil be ugly? Does it not lead one to assume that ugly is therefore evil? The association of spiritual corruption with physical corruption is outdated and offensive. Also, the Jedi are often arseholes, and while they might say they are on the side of the light they often act in manners that are explicitly hateful and small-minded. The treatment of Revan, the Jedi Exile and other veterans of the Mandalorian Wars in the KotOR games is a great example of this.

The Star Wars Universe has plenty of villains who are both evil and attractive (Thrawn, Tarkin, Xhizor, Daala, etc.). Its only Sith who get whacked with the ugly stick, and that is a deliberate result of exposing themselves to the Dark Side, reinforcing the notion that it isn`t natural. Many Jedi even have a history of staying out of conflict that doesn`t involve Sith, choosing to live as hermits and work at maintaining balance in the Force than getting involved with more secular squabbles. Jolee and Mace Windu are good examples: They are both assholes, but well-meaning and rightous ones, which sums up a good chunk of the Order.

Was it wrong to mind-wipe Revan? Yeah, probably. Even Bastilla, the zealot that she is, still felt pretty crappy about it. But think of it this way. Revan was on the path of ruin, on the verge of bringing untold war and horror to trillions of people. The Jedi. instead of just executing him when they had the chance, gave him a fresh start. A clean slate, and a chance to redeem himself and be the hero he once was. That doesn`t sound so bad to me.

 

[Vrach]

so what to do you guys think do the jedi believe in free will or will they sieze every opportunity to further their goals?

Did you miss the part where the Jedi erasing Revan's mind was one of the hardest decisions they had to make? They didn't do it cause "oh hey, a powerful Jedi, instead of killing him, let's blank his mind and turn him to our side!", they did it because he was the only hope of finding the Star Forge. You're making it sound like it was a choice between "dead enemy" and "converted enemy", when the actual choice was between "having no idea how to save an entire civilization from the most destructive conquering force in the galaxy" and "sacrificing one person's memories in order to have a fighting chance to save that galaxy".

Yes, the Jedi believe in free will. That said, they're very devoted to their ways, which is not to everyone's taste and imo, not in the best interest of either their own order or the galaxy's. They believe in detachment from emotions because they believe it to be the way to the Light side and the only way to stave off the 'corruption' of the Dark side. And there's plenty of proof towards otherwise throughout the novels, movies and games.

But now we're getting into a Star Wars lore religious discussion and my nerd senses are starting to overflow, so I'll stop here

 

[Irridium]

You should really play KotOR II. It faces this question head on.

Along with many other questions/issues about Star Wars and RPG's as a whole.

Man I love KoTOR 2.