Kylo Ren was the highlight of TFA SPOILERS

[Chris Mosher]

Do you not mean the worst part?

I really hated him, he was pretty lame and I thought his arc was very poorly done, so he wants power badly enough to warrant killing his own father, why?

Besides that I thought he was annoying and came off as too whiny and more of a brat than an actual villain, I get that it's a set-up to make him a better villain in the following movies but I thought it was very poorly done, easily the worst character in the entire movie.

About Han's death, I thought it was the most interesting part of the film. Its obviously a callback to both Obiwan/Vader and the Vader/luke confrontations Abrahms plays with the results and that was what I enjoyed.
In A New Hope Obiwan sacrificed himself for the younger heroes to escape and also because he new h could still guide Luke even after death. Thematically, I like how it parallels with Han's death, which is instead a sacrifice done by the killer as an offering to the darkside to purge Kylo's last conection to the lightside. Just Luke's final test is to confront and eventually bring Vader back to the light, Kylo had destroy his own connection to the light.
With everything i have heard from Ford, it seems like Han's death was inevitable. They could have given him a standard Heroic ending but the chose to go with what i think is a more interesting direction and make it more about Kylo's development.

 

[Kae]

Do you not mean the worst part?

I really hated him, he was pretty lame and I thought his arc was very poorly done, so he wants power badly enough to warrant killing his own father, why?

Besides that I thought he was annoying and came off as too whiny and more of a brat than an actual villain, I get that it's a set-up to make him a better villain in the following movies but I thought it was very poorly done, easily the worst character in the entire movie.

About Han's death, I thought it was the most interesting part of the film. Its obviously a callback to both Obiwan/Vader and the Vader/luke confrontations Abrahms plays with the results and that was what I enjoyed.
In A New Hope Obiwan sacrificed himself for the younger heroes to escape and also because he new h could still guide Luke even after death. Thematically, I like how it parallels with Han's death, which is instead a sacrifice done by the killer as an offering to the darkside to purge Kylo's last conection to the lightside. Just Luke's final test is to confront and eventually bring Vader back to the light, Kylo had destroy his own connection to the light.
With everything i have heard from Ford, it seems like Han's death was inevitable. They could have given him a standard Heroic ending but the chose to go with what i think is a more interesting direction and make it more about Kylo's development.

I didn't mind Han dying and nor the plot in theory, but something about how they did the scene just had me rolling my eyes and saying Really?! that's what you're going with, it was too obvious and I felt like it was poorly done, and about that callback, to be honest by this point in the movie I was tired of all the callbacks, it's one thing to honour the previous movie, it's another thing entirely when it's all the movie does, and as soon as I saw the set-up I knew exactly what they were doing and what was going to happen and I didn't think it was the least bit interesting, it was obvious, predictable, formulaic and executed with the level of mediocrity that can be expected from Abrahms.

The film itself isn't bad but it's so predictable, nothing that happened in it surprised me, funny considering Abrahms Philosophy in movies, and I think that's exactly why it bothered me, precisely because Abrahms was highlighting those questions is why it bothered me that all of them had obvious answers, I don't know, it was an OK movie, it's what I expected from Abreahms but not what I wanted from Star Wars, so I'm fairly disappointed in it.

 

[Chris Mosher]

I didn't mind Han dying and nor the plot in theory, but something about how they did the scene just had me rolling my eyes and saying Really?! that's what you're going with, it was too obvious and I felt like it was poorly done, and about that callback, to be honest by this point in the movie I was tired of all the callbacks, it's one thing to honour the previous movie, it's another thing entirely when it's all the movie does, and as soon as I saw the set-up I knew exactly what they were doing and what was going to happen and I didn't think it was the least bit interesting, it was obvious, predictable, formulaic and executed with the level of mediocrity that can be expected from Abrahms.

The film itself isn't bad but it's so predictable, nothing that happened in it surprised me, funny considering Abrahms Philosophy in movies, and I think that's exactly why it bothered me, precisely because Abrahms was highlighting those questions is why it bothered me that all of them had obvious answers, I don't know, it was an OK movie, it's what I expected from Abreahms but not what I wanted from Star Wars, so I'm fairly disappointed in it.

I agree that the callbacks were too many through out the film. I audibly grumbled the with the Falcon reveal and when Han and Chewie show up. I cut the death scene some slack because it did do something different then just reference the past films.

I also really benefited from lowered expectations it seems. With how the prequels turned out and how bad Star Trek into Darkness turned out i had zero expectations for this one. I had fun watching the movie and there was nothing as embarrassing as either Jar Jar Binks or the Kahn reveal so I thought it was good movie. So i guess the key to enjoying the film is to never have had any real expectations to begin with.

 

[Kae]

I didn't mind Han dying and nor the plot in theory, but something about how they did the scene just had me rolling my eyes and saying Really?! that's what you're going with, it was too obvious and I felt like it was poorly done, and about that callback, to be honest by this point in the movie I was tired of all the callbacks, it's one thing to honour the previous movie, it's another thing entirely when it's all the movie does, and as soon as I saw the set-up I knew exactly what they were doing and what was going to happen and I didn't think it was the least bit interesting, it was obvious, predictable, formulaic and executed with the level of mediocrity that can be expected from Abrahms.

The film itself isn't bad but it's so predictable, nothing that happened in it surprised me, funny considering Abrahms Philosophy in movies, and I think that's exactly why it bothered me, precisely because Abrahms was highlighting those questions is why it bothered me that all of them had obvious answers, I don't know, it was an OK movie, it's what I expected from Abreahms but not what I wanted from Star Wars, so I'm fairly disappointed in it.

I agree that the callbacks were too many through out the film. I audibly grumbled the with the Falcon reveal and when Han and Chewie show up. I cut the death scene some slack because it did do something different then just reference the past films.

I also really benefited from lowered expectations it seems. With how the prequels turned out and how bad Star Trek into Darkness turned out i had zero expectations for this one. I had fun watching the movie and there was nothing as embarrassing as either Jar Jar Binks or the Kahn reveal so I thought it was good movie. So i guess the key to enjoying the film is to never have had any real expectations to begin with.

Not really, I enjoyed the movie, but because it's Star Wars I can't give it a pass just because it was mediocre instead of good, and it's not like I had high expectations, I think J.J. Abrahms is a mediocre director at best and an absolutely shitty writer[footnote]I did think the writing was pretty weak, and full of Abrahms annoyingly shitty "Mystery Box" style, while also pandering too much to the nostalgia crowd.[/footnote], so my expectations were pretty low, unfortunately The Force Awakens was so mediocre that I don't really feel comfortable saying it's shit, even though it had many problems, I think that it's mediocrity will be revealed once the new trilogy is over and people struggle to remember what happened in the movie.

In any case I'm glad you enjoyed the movie, but I think it's perfectly fine to express that I want more from Star Wars than an OK movie, I want great and I'm not going to praise a movie that managed to be just OK, try harder Episode VIII, though I am more hopeful for episode VIII since I actually like Rian Johnson as a director and writer unlike Abrahms.

 

[Fappy]

So it's okay for a farm boy whose presumably never flown an X-Wing before to outmaneuver the Empire's best pilots and destroy their battle station (let alone being allowed to partake in the attack at all - "who is this guy?"), but you guys can't suspend your disbelief enough to consider Rey had a chance in the final battle? Chewie shot Ren with his fucking crossbow... which would have instantly killed him if it landed a few centimeters closer to his chest. Not only that, but Finn also wounded him further. He was a mess - pounding on his chest, trying to ignore the unbearable pain. He was unfocused and Rey was anything but.

As Plinkett says, "these are movies for babies". It's a family adventure film. This isn't GoT.

Also, for anyone who likes the prequals and can't fathom how Rey could win that fight, let's look back to Episode 1. A 10 year old takes out an entire battle station with no experience flying ANY KIND OF SPACE-FARING SHIP AT ALL with the power of "spinning".

 

[Dazzle Novak]

So it's okay for a farm boy whose presumably never flown an X-Wing before to outmaneuver the Empire's best pilots and destroy their battle station (let alone being allowed to partake in the attack at all - "who is this guy?"), but you guys can't suspend your disbelief enough to consider Rey had a chance in the final battle? Chewie shot Ren with his fucking crossbow... which would have instantly killed him if it landed a few centimeters closer to his chest. Not only that, but Finn also wounded him further. He was a mess - pounding on his chest, trying to ignore the unbearable pain. He was unfocused and Rey was anything but.

As Plinkett says, "these are movies for babies". It's a family adventure film. This isn't GoT.

Also, for anyone who likes the prequals and can't fathom how Rey could win that fight, let's look back to Episode 1. A 10 year old takes out an entire battle station with no experience flying ANY KIND OF SPACE-FARING SHIP AT ALL with the power of "spinning".

Anakin was a Mary Sue in the prequels because shit came too easy for him AND everyone in the audience hated him.

There are varying shades of suspension of disbelief required for most blockbusters. They require internal politics to be so simplistic that any conflict can be resolved by the five most important characters in a ragtag gang. They require a space-faring civilization with dubious surveillance capabilities. What bothers someone isn't an exact science.

Rey is likeable, but none of her flaws are developed enough to overcome the "chosen one" aura. Yes, Luke's arc is better because there's conflict between what he needs to do to tap into his potential and his personality. Luke needs to be calm and have faith in order to tap into the force. Luke acts impetuous and doubtful throughout the movie. Half the movie is Obi-Wan telling Luke to stop being a whiny ***** and do that thing.

As implausible as the one-in-a-million shot is, it's the culmination of his character arc for A New Hope and about as demanding as you can get for kid fantasy with prophecies deeming the punk protagonist "special".

Whether it's believable is almost beyond the point. I concede that Kylo Ren was a wounded wannabe. The problem is underwriting her character (all of the characters) and making Rey's backstory a "mystery box".

 

[Fappy]

So it's okay for a farm boy whose presumably never flown an X-Wing before to outmaneuver the Empire's best pilots and destroy their battle station (let alone being allowed to partake in the attack at all - "who is this guy?"), but you guys can't suspend your disbelief enough to consider Rey had a chance in the final battle? Chewie shot Ren with his fucking crossbow... which would have instantly killed him if it landed a few centimeters closer to his chest. Not only that, but Finn also wounded him further. He was a mess - pounding on his chest, trying to ignore the unbearable pain. He was unfocused and Rey was anything but.

As Plinkett says, "these are movies for babies". It's a family adventure film. This isn't GoT.

Also, for anyone who likes the prequals and can't fathom how Rey could win that fight, let's look back to Episode 1. A 10 year old takes out an entire battle station with no experience flying ANY KIND OF SPACE-FARING SHIP AT ALL with the power of "spinning".

Anakin was a Mary Sue in the prequels because shit came too easy for him AND everyone in the audience hated him.

Rey is likeable, but none of her flaws are developed enough to overcome the "chosen one" aura. Yes, Luke's arc is better because there's conflict between what he needs to do to tap into his potential and his personality. Luke needs to be calm and have faith in order to tap into the force. Luke acts impetuous and doubtful throughout the movie.

As implausible as the one-in-a-million shot is, it's the culmination of his character arc for A New Hope and about as demanding as you can get for kid fantasy with prophecies deeming the punk protagonist "special".

As far as "for kids" goes, in terms of philosophic and character depth, certainly, but don't forget that PG-13 rating and how half the movie panders to fans in the 30s and up. I'm sure Junior wasn't nearly as intrigued by Cool Grandpa and General Mom as the 35 year old convinced Star Wars is the monomyth of our era...

Rey's arc was weaker than Luke's sure, but I think it was just the set up. We still have two more films to explore her character. Lucas did not design New Hope with sequels in mind (I am sure he hoped for them, but couldn't know if they would happen), so he needed to give Luke a more concise arc.

Personally, as much as I love New Hope, I didn't really start liking Luke as a character until Empire. Rey is likable right off the bat. Of course that doesn't mean we can expect her to surpass Luke as a character by the end, but I certainly think the potential is there. All that said, I think I am one of the few fans out there that actually wants the "torch passing" to extend all the way to the final film. Considering how seemingly important Luke is I'd love to see him play an important role in the next movie outside of mentor.

 

[Dazzle Novak]

So it's okay for a farm boy whose presumably never flown an X-Wing before to outmaneuver the Empire's best pilots and destroy their battle station (let alone being allowed to partake in the attack at all - "who is this guy?"), but you guys can't suspend your disbelief enough to consider Rey had a chance in the final battle? Chewie shot Ren with his fucking crossbow... which would have instantly killed him if it landed a few centimeters closer to his chest. Not only that, but Finn also wounded him further. He was a mess - pounding on his chest, trying to ignore the unbearable pain. He was unfocused and Rey was anything but.

As Plinkett says, "these are movies for babies". It's a family adventure film. This isn't GoT.

Also, for anyone who likes the prequals and can't fathom how Rey could win that fight, let's look back to Episode 1. A 10 year old takes out an entire battle station with no experience flying ANY KIND OF SPACE-FARING SHIP AT ALL with the power of "spinning".

Anakin was a Mary Sue in the prequels because shit came too easy for him AND everyone in the audience hated him.

Rey is likeable, but none of her flaws are developed enough to overcome the "chosen one" aura. Yes, Luke's arc is better because there's conflict between what he needs to do to tap into his potential and his personality. Luke needs to be calm and have faith in order to tap into the force. Luke acts impetuous and doubtful throughout the movie.

As implausible as the one-in-a-million shot is, it's the culmination of his character arc for A New Hope and about as demanding as you can get for kid fantasy with prophecies deeming the punk protagonist "special".

As far as "for kids" goes, in terms of philosophic and character depth, certainly, but don't forget that PG-13 rating and how half the movie panders to fans in the 30s and up. I'm sure Junior wasn't nearly as intrigued by Cool Grandpa and General Mom as the 35 year old convinced Star Wars is the monomyth of our era...

Rey's arc was weaker than Luke's sure, but I think it was just the set up. We still have two more films to explore her character. Lucas did not design New Hope with sequels in mind (I am sure he hoped for them, but couldn't know if they would happen), so he needed to give Luke a more concise arc.

Personally, as much as I love New Hope, I didn't really start liking Luke as a character until Empire. Rey is likable right off the bat. Of course that doesn't mean we can expect her to surpass Luke as a character by the end, but I certainly think the potential is there. All that said, I think I am one of the few fans out there that actually wants to "torch passing" to extend all the way to the final film. Considering how seemingly important Luke is I'd love to see him play an important role in the next movie outside of mentor.

I still don't like A New Hope all that much having rewatched it yesterday, so please don't think I'm an OT purist. Likewise, I like Finn and Rey more than I do Luke.

I'm simply saying that I don't feel Abrams did a good job of balancing her character and I hate being compelled to use an obnoxious term like "Strong Female Character" or an arguably sexist term like "Mary Sue" unironically.

A hyper-competent character is defensible in general, but less-so in the context of a film already mired in fanfic-y elements where new characters yearn for the approval of fan favorites and talk about them in hushed tones of awe and the new bad guys are the same as the old bad guys just +1.

That's my two cents.

 

[maninahat]

I liked him somewhat. I get the whole awkward, rebellious teenager angle, but the problem I had was that he looked a little too much like a dorky rebellious teenager. With a distractingly big noseand wobbly lip. I think I'll get over it, like I got over his sword suprisingly quickly.

I liked his whole premise of a Vader wannabe who can't quite manage it. I also could absolutely buy that he could get his ass handed to him in a swordfight. We don't know if Luke even ever trained him with a Lightsabre (I imagine Luke would have disapproved of it, especially if it was bright red and had a hazardous looking design), and he probably never has had to best another force proficient person. Hell, Luke beat Darth Vader after having been in only his second ever real lightsabre duel, and both are supposed to be prodigees. He did hand Finn his own ass anyway, so we know that being attuned to the force makes a big difference.

 

[Darth Rosenberg]

I'm simply saying that I don't feel Abrams did a good job of balancing her character and I hate being compelled to use an obnoxious term like "Strong Female Character" or an arguably sexist term like "Mary Sue" unironically.

A hyper-competent character is defensible in general, but less-so in the context of a film already mired in fanfic-y elements where new characters yearn for the approval of fan favorites and talk about them in hushed tones of awe and the new bad guys are the same as the old bad guys just +1.

I think it's a little unfair to be too critical of Rey at this point. Or, hell, any of the principle newcomers... Did any of them get detailed backstories and histories? There are a lot of questions still left, and I feel the second film needs to be seen to really put, in particular, Rey's or Ren's actions into context and perspective.

Ren was not what I expected, and so I ended up really liking the idea of a fairly fragile antagonist struggling with an innate weakness towards the Light. I think KotOR and KotOR II - not to mention Empire - present the Force in far more intelligent and interesting ways, but going this direction with Ren was at least an improvement on how the prequels treated Light/Dark Sides.

As for Rey? Honestly, I was just so pleased to see her be 'the one' in this film as opposed to Finn - as the Star Wars films desperately need a female Force adept/Jedi to mix things up a bit - that I just enjoyed the ride, especially, as I remarked above, given how little we know of her and her past. I thought Daisy Ridley provided a mighty fine performance, as did all the newcomers.

 

[Chimeiookami]

When you add that on top of the fact she has complete mastery of the force minutes after learning about her being force sensitive, the fact she's an expert pilot and mechanic for space ships despite her background making her logically neither, and the fact the saber called to her, she comes off as a textbook Mary Sue.

Yep that's the real issue here, I don't why people are hung up on the lightsaber fight in particular. She didn't turn on the god mode at the end. She was in god mode the entire movie. I get that it's cool to have a female character that can save herself. I was thrilled by how they kind of lampshade it on Jakku, but it was to on the nose the for rest of the movie.

Also, why everybody assume that because Kylo is capable of impressive force feat, (Mind Reading,"Freezing" a blaster shot) he MUST be super powerful. And I don't even mean with a lightsaber, the force is a wide discipline, isn't it possible that he really focused on these abilities and is not necessarly AS powerful with Telekinesis, Mind Tricks or other disciplines.

The problem with this fight is not with Kylo. It is Rey. And it's not the worst part, the worst is the mind trick she performs.

 

[wizzy555]

In regards to the mind trick and Kylo's time freezing. I think they are laying out the idea that different jedi are just more naturally gifted when it comes to different force abilities.

This is pretty good idea for a new trilogy as it will mean we can see different yet familiar things. The prequels gave the idea that jedi are mass produced by yoda to be the same.

 

[Chris Mosher]

I didn't mind Han dying and nor the plot in theory, but something about how they did the scene just had me rolling my eyes and saying Really?! that's what you're going with, it was too obvious and I felt like it was poorly done, and about that callback, to be honest by this point in the movie I was tired of all the callbacks, it's one thing to honour the previous movie, it's another thing entirely when it's all the movie does, and as soon as I saw the set-up I knew exactly what they were doing and what was going to happen and I didn't think it was the least bit interesting, it was obvious, predictable, formulaic and executed with the level of mediocrity that can be expected from Abrahms.

The film itself isn't bad but it's so predictable, nothing that happened in it surprised me, funny considering Abrahms Philosophy in movies, and I think that's exactly why it bothered me, precisely because Abrahms was highlighting those questions is why it bothered me that all of them had obvious answers, I don't know, it was an OK movie, it's what I expected from Abreahms but not what I wanted from Star Wars, so I'm fairly disappointed in it.

I agree that the callbacks were too many through out the film. I audibly grumbled the with the Falcon reveal and when Han and Chewie show up. I cut the death scene some slack because it did do something different then just reference the past films.

I also really benefited from lowered expectations it seems. With how the prequels turned out and how bad Star Trek into Darkness turned out i had zero expectations for this one. I had fun watching the movie and there was nothing as embarrassing as either Jar Jar Binks or the Kahn reveal so I thought it was good movie. So i guess the key to enjoying the film is to never have had any real expectations to begin with.

Not really, I enjoyed the movie, but because it's Star Wars I can't give it a pass just because it was mediocre instead of good, and it's not like I had high expectations, I think J.J. Abrahms is a mediocre director at best and an absolutely shitty writer[footnote]I did think the writing was pretty weak, and full of Abrahms annoyingly shitty "Mystery Box" style, while also pandering too much to the nostalgia crowd.[/footnote], so my expectations were pretty low, unfortunately The Force Awakens was so mediocre that I don't really feel comfortable saying it's shit, even though it had many problems, I think that it's mediocrity will be revealed once the new trilogy is over and people struggle to remember what happened in the movie.

In any case I'm glad you enjoyed the movie, but I think it's perfectly fine to express that I want more from Star Wars than an OK movie, I want great and I'm not going to praise a movie that managed to be just OK, try harder Episode VIII, though I am more hopeful for episode VIII since I actually like Rian Johnson as a director and writer unlike Abrahms.

No worries, I not here to change minds or say that others opinions are wrong. I just enjoy talking about movies and about different opinions. Kylo's arc worked fir me and I started the thread because I thought it would be interesting to talk about. A part of me wishes i still had high expectations for a Star Wars film but I feel like i have disappointed a few too many times.

I also am holding out hope for Rain Johnson in episode 8. I dont think Abrahams is a bad director but his scripts are often lacking. I enjoy his action but often wish he would direct someone else's script. Lets hope part 8 is more Looper then Super8.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I dont think Abrahams is a bad director but his scripts are often lacking. I enjoy his action but often wish he would direct someone else's script. Lets hope part 8 is more Looper then Super8.

He directed someone else's script in both Star Trek films. Particularly in the case of the second film, no one was terribly impressed with the result.

Notably, Episode VII's script was co-written by Lawrence Kasdan (of Empire Strikes Back fame).

 

[Chris Mosher]

I dont think Abrahams is a bad director but his scripts are often lacking. I enjoy his action but often wish he would direct someone else's script. Lets hope part 8 is more Looper then Super8.

He directed someone else's script in both Star Trek films. Particularly in the case of the second film, no one was terribly impressed with the result.

Notably, Episode VII's script was co-written by Lawrence Kasdan (of Empire Strikes Back fame).

I thought he had a hand in writing those ones as well. Perhaps i should say a good script but maybe the scripts he is attracted to are just not that good. Honestly I have seen a recent trend in action movies were they feel like the script needs one or two more drafts to make them feel less half baked.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I thought he had a hand in writing those ones as well. Perhaps i should say a good script but maybe the scripts he is attracted to are just not that good. Honestly I have seen a recent trend in action movies were they feel like the script needs one or two more drafts to make them feel less half baked.

Not that I'm aware of. I don't believe he has writing credits on either, and when the story lines were attacked it was the writers who replied. I think we have a propensity to over-assign credit/blame to the director on projects. They play a huge role, certainly, but they're not in charge of every last aspect of the production.

Abrams has his limitations as both a writer and a director, but he's at least competent, which isn't something we've had in a Star Wars film since the 80's.

 

[Chris Mosher]

I thought he had a hand in writing those ones as well. Perhaps i should say a good script but maybe the scripts he is attracted to are just not that good. Honestly I have seen a recent trend in action movies were they feel like the script needs one or two more drafts to make them feel less half baked.

Not that I'm aware of. I don't believe he has writing credits on either, and when the story lines were attacked it was the writers who replied. I think we have a propensity to over-assign credit/blame to the director on projects. They play a huge role, certainly, but they're not in charge of every last aspect of the production.

Abrams has his limitations as both a writer and a director, but he's at least competent, which isn't something we've had in a Star Wars film since the 80's.

I just assumed that since Felicity, Lost and Fringe all used alternative realities as a way of exploring theirs characters regrets and perceived failures that Abrahms had a hand in writing the alternative reality in Star Trek as well.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I won't say anyone is in the wrong here, and if someone wants to try and make me see things from another point of view then please do so. This is just my opinion after all.

Well, you know. I can *try*. You seem rather convinced.

I didn't just think Kylo Ren was good. I was speculating this morning as I brushed my teeth that he might be one of my favorite Star Wars characters of all time. So much about him was done exactly right. I'll try address specific things I've read/heard when it comes to complaints. There aren't a lot...outside this forum, opinion is significantly less split.

Then there is Kylo, and frankly he is completely underwhelming in every way. None of the ability or toughness of Darth Maul, none of the eloquence and affableness of Dooku, and none of the calm yet ruthless and determination of Vader.

Yes, and thank god, he's none of those characters.

Maul is a double bladed lightsaber. That is the extent of his character. There is not a single thing you can tell me about Darth Maul beyond that, other than to describe his (corny) aesthetic. I too thought the double bladed lightsaber was cool, and thus was sad when Maul was dispatched summarily in one of the worst fight sequences in cinematic history [http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/82394808/].

Dooku, Vader and Palpatine (and boy do I hate including Dooku with those other two...all respect to Christopher Lee, but watching him struggle with that dialogue and direction was tragic) are all cut from the same cloth. Calm, unflappable schemers. The heart of the Sith creed and the path to the Dark Side is always given to us as passion, but the only one of the lot who ever demonstrates any is Palpatine, and it's a comically evil passion. Like, he really enjoys being evil. And that's good, because it means he has volition...even if it's silly volition...but it does make him something of a cartoon. Vader shows passion for a few seconds, on his journey back to the light side.

Our one insight into a "good man becoming evil" is Anakin in Episode 3, and to say that's handled poorly would be the understatement of the century. Hayden is given little or nothing to do aside from scream petulantly about how the Jedi are not fair, and to be hoodwinked by a transparently plotting Palpatine. Nothing he does suggest he is choosing his path. He's tricked into becoming Darth Vader. For those willing to accept them at face value and as part of canon, it definitively ruins one of the best villains in cinematic history.

In Kylo Ren, you are given a character who is still in the process of their journey to the Dark Side. He is a boiling mess of conflicting emotions, and his rage and uncertainty come bubbling forth outside of his control. The filmmakers understand the difficulty of creating a character that lives up to Vader, so they give you a young man literally attempting to live up to Vader, while believing that the goodness that lived inside of Anakin Skywalker was a last vestige of weakness that needed to be extinguished.

Star Wars did not need yet another unflappable Sith, or another prop with a cool lightsaber. Abrams already gets flack for leaning too hard on established plot beats and character archetypes. Kylo Ren is something new. An evil character showing complex emotion is incredibly refreshing in this IP.

He loses all credibility when he throws a temper tantrum and smashes his computers like a kid losing at Counter Strike, and when he takes off the mask and we see someone who looks like they just came from a My Chemical Romance gig

This kind of thing is very difficult for me to respond to, because it's hard for me to not be judgmental. It's petty. If you think Darth Maul's face paint is "cool" and a regular human face = automatic emo, there's no point in me discussing anything with you. All Dark Side force users do not have to be deformed monsters with yellow eyes. That was always a ludicrous conceit. The Dark Side has no threat and cannot be positioned as a dangerous temptation if the only people seduced by it are either already evil to their core, or are tricked because they are morons.

...it?s established he was a pupil of Luke?s and slaughtered the other apprentices, yet he struggles to defeat Finn, with less force potential and gets his ass handed to him by Rey, who has loads of potential but no ability, when he must have at least 10 years of experience, essentially at odds with what we have been told.

He does not struggle to defeat Finn, but Finn gives him a stiffer challenge than one might assume. How/why does this happen? How can the guy we saw easily overcome Poe suddenly be ragged, fighting hunched over, taking wild and unfocused swings? It could have something to do with the bowcaster shot he took to the stomach, a weapon we have demonstrated for us multiple times as being EXTREMELY powerful so that no one misses the point. A wound he is shown to be bleeding copiously from. A wound he is repeatedly striking in an attempt to ratchet up his anger and give himself strength, because he is plainly laboring. Someone complained elsewhere that this wound was not sufficiently established to be troubling to Kylo. I have to ask that person just how many establishing shots do you fucking need before you get the point. A hundred?

Secondly, he loses to Rey, after pushing her to the brink. Rey reaches out to the force and manages to overcome her badly wounded assailant, much as Luke repeatedly reaches out to the Force in moments of great desperation/need throughout the original trilogy. Here, I'm to understand it's absurd deus ex machina, but not when he uses it to destroy the Death Star, or force leap out of the carbonite pit, or summons his anger to summarily dispatch Vader in a handful of swings...an enemy who had been toying with him in every encounter up until that point. Luke was constantly reaching out to the Force to do new and necessary things. Rey does this once, and it's perceived as a canonic violation. Again, often by the same fans who castigate the writers/directors for being "too safe" and not adding anything to the canon. You can see my issue here.

Third, unlike Darth Maul, Kylo Ren is not a prop. He's not there to strike poses for the camera and carry an interesting looking weapon. He has a character arc that needs attending to as well, and losing to Rey is as important for his development as her finding her power was to hers.

Remember how when they established Vader by breaking a guys neck without pause, force choking people who failed him once

Yes I do remember. Do you remember when Kylo Ren is meditating, and says "Forgive me, I feel it again. The call of the light". This is not Vader. This is a guy struggling to extinguish a reflex towards mercy and compassion, because he views it as weakness.

We only hate Ren for one reason, because he killed Han. Not because he's on the dark side, not because he's an apprentice for an evil master, not because he?s supposed to be a figurehead for an evil organisation, not for his character or aspirations, because he kills Han.

The sole measure of a villain's quality is not "how much you hate them". There are villains that people love to hate, yes, but there are also villains who shine for a variety of other reasons. Some are complex, others are charismatic, still others border on anti-heroes. For every Dolores Umbridge, there's a Tony Soprano, Walter White or Hans Gruber. Villains don't come in a single flavor..."hateful".

...he somehow forgets to do that against Chewbacca, wouldn't that have been a double whammy to stop the bolt and send it back against Chewbacca? It would have made what was a sad scene even more tragic.

He was preoccupied, and it is established several times that bowcasters =/= blasters.

In other words, too much of Ren's ability is talked about, not enough of it is shown

This is fundamentally untrue, and frankly preposterous coming from someone who apparently enjoyed the prequels, where virtually every dollop of meaningful characterization had to be accomplished via exposition. Everything here is given to you OUTSIDE of exposition. He demonstrates his anger and instability through his erratic behavior. He hesitates before killing Han despite it being the crux of his desire to go to the dark. He bludgeons his own wound to wind up his rage and give himself power. He's caught insecure and flat-footed when Rey mind-reads him. His helmet is shown to be extremely heavy, clanking down with extraordinary and symbolic weight. Even his weapon is a reflection of his emotional state, flickering and crackling, fundamentally cracked and unstable. Other than his parentage, EVERYTHING about him is shown on screen. There are ZERO informed qualities.

He?s poorly written, badly acted and only seems to be a villain because of how he looks and because we are told he is.

So the murder and torture in the OPENING SCENES wasn't enough to set off any "villain" bells? It wasn't until someone had a conversation about him that you thought "Oh that's the BAD guy?".

He is neither poorly written nor badly acted. Driver's getting a shit-ton of work lately, with everyone from the Coen Brothers to Jim Jarmusch. If you think he's a bad actor, I can't help. If you think this character was written poorly, but enjoyed Darth Maul, I can't help. I seriously have no idea what to say to someone who thinks these things, other than "I find your tastes in film confusing".

 

[Yuuki]

Kylo Ren's character was nothing short of incredible. I loved his strong/dark presence and that "do NOT mess with him" aura, absolutely loved it. He was a villain who could instill fear into everyone the moment he arrived on scene. That is how villains are done!

And then he took off his mask and everything went swiftly downhill. A lanky nerd with a long face and all I could think was "oh...okay..." and it was difficult to take him seriously. Then he proceeded to have trouble fighting one ex-stormtrooper and got his ass kicked by a scavenger who had never held a lightsaber in her life. At that point it also seems he completely forgot about force powers. Oh well.

But then again I guess Kylo was facing nobody other than Rey herself, who is basically Jesus. She instantly masters everything she sees and gets instantly befriended by everyone she meets (even someone like Han which is incredible). I tend to start giggling out loud whenever protagonists in any movie/anime/etc pull this trope.

IMO Kylo should have kept his mask on until the very end when Han confronted him, so we could get a brief glimpse at his more weak/human side. After killing Han he should've put his mask back on (murdered his father and gone further to the dark side) and proceeded to fight Rey/Finn, quickly making them realize how out-matched they are. Just as Kylo is about to finish them off, the ground splits and Rey/Finn make their lucky escape.

At least that way when Rey finds Luke you can feel a tone of "I need training to beat Kylo". But now all I can imagine is Luke saying "why did you come here with my lightsaber? Just find and kill Kylo, should be easy. You will master everything about the force in a day".