Left 4 Dead 2: The Boycott: The Visit: The Aftermath: The Interview

[kawligia]

First off, I am not a member of the boycott and I will be buying L4D2.

However, I am glad that the boycott is alive and well, and you all should be too.

I might have been a member of the boycott if I bought the game at release with the same expectations as them, but I didn't. I came strolling in much later at the 40% off weekend and had no knowledge or expectations of new content. I paid my measly $25 and expected only what I saw over the free weekend and that's exactly what I got.

Nonetheless, even though I am not one of them, all the comments insulting the boycotters still piss me off. You should be grateful that there are people who are willing to stand up, sacrifice, vote with their wallets, and openly say why they are doing so. You should be even more grateful that it's making an actual impact. If everyone just rolled over when companies shit on them, it wouldn't be long before games sucked pretty bad.

Think about it. For example:

-If nobody complained, then games might wind up receiving NO bugfixes or extra content that was promised.
-Paying extra money to advance within the game might be a standard feature.
-There might be a disgusting level of advertisement shoved in your face while playing the game.

Seriously, there could be any amount of bullshit given to us! That's because this stuff will only go as far as we let it. These guys are making sure that the line in the sand actually exists and is in a reasonable place whereas some of you would just lay down and accept your mistreatment. If you can't see that what they are doing does have some importance and does significantly benefit you, even if you are not one of them, then you have absolutely no foresight whatsoever.

 

[iNfArEd]

Let's boycott, because they banned it in AU.

_|_(>_>)_|_

Fucking Australia...

 

[Fortesque]

I still think our Boycott leaders have sold out.. However I still wont be buying L4D2 for 2 reasons.

1(also the most important): As an Australian.. I cant buy the game... fucking Government.

2: I will not buy another Valve game until HL2: Ep 3 comes out.

 

[slackbheep]

I think Valve should've just put everyone on L4D2 boycott lists on ban lists to prevent them from buying or playing any form of the game. Demo or otherwise. That'd be pretty epic!

And it would be helping the community so that they could stay true to their goals. Seems reasonable to me.

These posts are direct quotes from the Gospel of Truth.

Edit: The Boycott is silly, I don't know a single person who bought L4D and feels they've been cheated. Hell, my roommate forgot his account information for steam (Don't bloody ask me how) and ended up buying a SECOND copy of L4D for full price shortly after L4D2 was announced. Asked for his opinion he shouts from down the hall: "A few less ragequitters!"

 

[Walking_Target]

Hi Walking_Target.

Can you elaborate on this statement. My perception of the boycott group so far is that a large percentage of members are purely leaping on the band wagon with no deep desire for the cause.

I wouldn't doubt that some members are just jumping on the band wagon, but a ton of others are there for the reasons we've explained. Then there's usually 10-20 or so trolls on a weekly, if not daily basis, but that's an 'in and out' figure as they usually leave the group within hours of joining.

Also, I've noticed lately (sadly, but not unexpected) that the number of people playing L4D has dropped significantly. In your mind is this down to a lack of support through DLC, or people moving on to other games as usual?

The reason for a sudden drop in L4D player numbers will be some sort of aggragate cause, most likely things like the start of the school semester, the release of several new titles (although not many FPS) and yes, the stagnation of content (DLC) for L4D. If Valve wanted to keep the game fresh (besides bug fixes) adding new achievements and new weapons/SI would be the way to go.

In relation to this - adding DLC to the game would cause a brief spike in the number of returning players. Releasing a new game for Christmas would introduce an influx of new players. As the L4D community is already dropping and you're not opposed to a new game coming out, surely pushing more DLC onto the previous game will just fragment the community further?

That depends on two things

One:

If Valve is going with interoperablility in the new game, meaning the new game is compatible with maps and so forth from the old one. Since this is all Source Engine based, I doubt that it will be too long until we see ports of the old maps to L4D2 by the mod community and vice versa. This also provides L4D2 with a ready base of community created content, that could forseeably be dropped in with little or no modification. The only question that remains is if Valve is going to offer the maps and so forth from L4D for L4D2 at or around the release of the new game.

and Two:

The assumption that DLC for the original would negatively impact the salse of Left 4 Dead 2.

I'm going to pull on the 'Business Hat' here (I have a fancy piece of paper here saying I can).

Offering Crash Course within about a month and a half of release for L4D2 is a very, very smart thing for Valve to do from a purely business standpoint. There will be an influx of people playing L4D for about three weeks or more, which brings us to the end of October (give or take).

This is utterly brilliant, because it gives players a positive experience in a new campaign with a few HUD upgrades and some bug fixes thrown in. You get them playing the old game on a new map with some new stuff, what better way to get your player base interested in a sequel which is supposed to be improved even more? Moreover, it helps win over some of the more skeptical people (such as some of the boycott members).

I can gaurentee that this will increase sales at release for both versions of L4D2. It also is an immediate PR win, because it shows Valve giving support and updates for their original title, just like they said they would.

Same for the release of another DLC 2-6 months after the release of L4D2, they'll get people interested in L4D again, and you'll see another spike in sales for L4D2.

I bet that we could even chart this effect, if given proper sales data.

Now, outside of the skeptical 'Just for business' view, Valve is going to release Crash Course, supposedly for both PC and Xbox on Sept 29th, although apparently, bug fixes and the new updated HUD for the Special Infected in Versus play is already available via patch.

As one of the admins for the boycott (I cannot speak for the other admin), I will say that the idea of Crash Course is promising, especially with the bug fixes that are supposedly comming out with it (I cannot comment as I do not play L4D on Xbox).


The TLR version; Crash Course can be viewed as a PR win for Valve and potentially, is an excellent marketing tool for them; if you want to take a somewhat skeptical stance.



All that and I *still* can't find a decent job in PR/Management/Marketing. Economy really sucks, huh?

 

[pneuma08]

All of the above said, I have some respect for you. At least your reasons to protest seem thought out, and not too unreasonable, and you seem to be admirably sticking to your conviction. I still think you're holding Valve to an unbelievably high standard though, far higher than you would set for another company.

QFT.

I have no doubt in my mind that Valve had the best intentions going into L4D. They didn't act like they were going to do a bait-and-switch in the least; they spent millions in advertising, they made up a very thoughtful and unique logo, they waxed about all the stuff they wanted to do. Their business model is clear. They had plans, and said as much, but when those plans went out the window, they were pretty much stuck (for if L4D2 cannot be done in the context of L4D). Faced with the possibility that they would have to eventually move away from L4D because of unforeseen consequences, they were faced with the decision to implement it sooner or later.

What has Valve done wrong? Talk about their ambition? Or fail to wait on what they knew was coming? If it is the former, then Peter Molyneux should be drawn and quartered, and if the latter...

 

[BloodyOne]

It's a game. If you don't like it, then don't buy it. That's my stand.

Who ever said they are providing L4D2 instead of more content?

Remember when the Demo was out? And everybody was all pissy about the difficulty curve? Then the game came out and we all basked in its glory? Yeah... I predict a similar course of events.

This whole boycott business has been great entertainment

Well I guess one good thing came out of it on our end...

 

[SmugFrog]

...what better way to get your player base interested in a sequel which is supposed to be improved even more?

That is a really good point! There are always people that have the sequel to a game, but go back and play the original; and you can bet they'll be jabbering away about how great L4D2 is.

 

[quiet_samurai]

I think if someone doesn't like the way a company handles their product they should either try and get a job there to make changes, start their own company, or shut the fuck up and not be such babies. Taking it upon yourself to try and get a business to give you what you want is ascenine and juvenile, and shows you are too immature to handle disappointment. The world doesn't revolve around you.

Are you seriously suggesting that people who are dissatisfied with a product should just keep quiet about it and move on? Quite apart from the matter of the boycott, that's a shockingly... well, shocking statement. Giving people what they want is a pretty vital part of the business/consumer relationship.

How can you be dissatisfied with something that hasn'e even been released yet (L4D2)? Or how can you be dissatisfied with something that until recently was seen as something completely awesome and has in no way been altered from said awesomeness(L4D)? It has nothing to do with dissatification, as in a faulty or bad product, and everything to do with people not getting enough of what they want from Valve. In my book that's just the same as acting like that spoiled brat that didn't get everything they wanted for Christmas and throwing a fit. You can't always get what you want, and the sooner these people reaslize that the better off they will be.

Now I'm in favor of companies listening to customers, without it progress would be halted. But there's a difference between listening to the comsumer and catering to certain consumers every need. It's especially bad when those needs require the ending or complete alteration of the product you had in mind, which in turn kind of ruins the point because then it's no longer your product. Not to mention the cost.

 

[Walking_Target]

How can you be dissatisfied with something that hasn'e even been released yet (L4D2)? Or how can you be dissatisfied with something that until recently was seen as something completely awesome and has in no way been altered from said awesomeness(L4D)? It has nothing to do with dissatification, as in a faulty or bad product, and everything to do with people not getting enough of what they want from Valve. In my book that's just the same as acting like that spoiled brat that didn't get everything they wanted for Christmas and throwing a fit. You can't always get what you want, and the sooner these people reaslize that the better off they will be.

Now I'm in favor of companies listening to customers, without it progress would be halted. But there's a difference between listening to the comsumer and catering to certain consumers every need. It's especially bad when those needs require the ending or complete alteration of the product you had in mind, which in turn kind of ruins the point because then it's no longer your product. Not to mention the cost.

Again, you're thinking that the L4D2 Boycott is about L4D2.

The L4D2 Boycott is about dissatisfaction with the support that has been provided to L4D thus far.

This seems to be a very common misconception, but we are concentrated on L4D, not L4D2. Our manifesto even says right in the 2nd line thereof;

"Judgment cannot be passed on the quality of Left 4 Dead 2 until its release."

We are saying to Valve that "We're not happy with the way you have supported your title, it does not match up with the stated 'plans' that many of us based our decision to buy the game on. Therefore, we are not going to buy your new title until support and content are forthcomming"

 

[quiet_samurai]

How can you be dissatisfied with something that hasn'e even been released yet (L4D2)? Or how can you be dissatisfied with something that until recently was seen as something completely awesome and has in no way been altered from said awesomeness(L4D)? It has nothing to do with dissatification, as in a faulty or bad product, and everything to do with people not getting enough of what they want from Valve. In my book that's just the same as acting like that spoiled brat that didn't get everything they wanted for Christmas and throwing a fit. You can't always get what you want, and the sooner these people reaslize that the better off they will be.

Now I'm in favor of companies listening to customers, without it progress would be halted. But there's a difference between listening to the comsumer and catering to certain consumers every need. It's especially bad when those needs require the ending or complete alteration of the product you had in mind, which in turn kind of ruins the point because then it's no longer your product. Not to mention the cost.

Again, you're thinking that the L4D2 Boycott is about L4D2.

The L4D2 Boycott is about dissatisfaction with the support that has been provided to L4D thus far.

This seems to be a very common misconception, but we are concentrated on L4D, not L4D2. Our manifesto even says right in the 2nd line thereof;

"Judgment cannot be passed on the quality of Left 4 Dead 2 until its release."

We are saying to Valve that "We're not happy with the way you have supported your title, it does not match up with the stated 'plans' that many of us based our decision to buy the game on. Therefore, we are not going to buy your new title until support and content are forthcomming"

No, I know exactly what the boycott is about. I was just telling Malygris that the word dissatisfication is not the proper term or reason behind it. Because I'm willing to bet none of you were really dissatisfied with the original, no, you're all just bitter about the fact you won't be getting what you want.... it's childish. You were completely happy with something until you found out it was no longer going to meet the idea you had for it in your brain, so now you are all up in arms about it.

And I agree I was also diaappointed that Valve may no longer be oenly supporting the game anymore, it was one of the reasons I bought it in the first place. And when I heard about the sequel and that there was no plans to further the original I was like "oh that sucks, but oh well, now I have the sequel to look forward too." Yes they did have plans to keep it going, but you know what... plans change, plans fall through, it's just how the world is.

Call me an asshole or crazy but the whole, "The L4D2 boycott isn't really about L4D2, it's about L4D1. But by that we mean it's really is about L4D2 because we are not going to buy it, because we really like L4D1 too much and we are mad because it's getting put on the backburner for something that for all we know is much better. Now we aren't saying L4D2 is a bad game or a good game, in fact we will never really know because we're never going to buy it. But don't get confused about our feelings for it, it's not that we hate it, we are just not going to buy it because it's not L4D1" is just idiotic and vague and you're hating on someting for the wrong reason. I'll tell you what, when the sequel comes out and I play it in it's entirety, meaning I get the full affect and experience everything it has to offer, and I am not satisfied... then I will jump on your bandwagon... I promise. But until then, you got no water in your squirtgun there Hoss.

And if you don't want people thinking the "L4D2 boycott" isn't about L4D2 then you should consider changing the name of your little revolution.

 

[Walking_Target]

Huh?

I've actually played L4D2. It is a good game, because it's basically L4D with a lot of new stuff.

That does not change the fact that I do not intend to buy a sequel until support for the original is forthcomming.

Just because my opinion of L4D2 is positive does not change my dissatisfaction with the original product.

You however do not seem capable of understanding what is going on though. You keep comming back to "If you're boycotting L4D2 than your concerns MUST be about L4D2, because you're saying you won't buy L4D2!"; that is not the case, per sey. The L4D2 Boycott exists because of the specific timing of L4D2 and that's about how far it goes towards being about L4D2.

If L4D2 had not been announced or had been announced after at least one really decent DLC, I and many other fans would see L4D2 differently and probably would have been more satisfied.

Perhaps its more accurate to say;

"We're not happy with the support of your title, especially when you're planning to release a sequel before even 1/4 of the 'planned' or 'intended' content and support is delivered. Therefore we will not buy your sequel until such a time as a decent ammount of support and content are provided"


Sorry, but when it comes right down to brass tacks, Valve announced a sequel before they released even 10% of the stated support and content and while major bugs and expoits for the original game are still an issue.

It's over 10 months since release and fixes have yet to be forthcomming for the silent hunter glitch, hitbox problems and the buggy hit registration of boomer bile. That's the short list. They might be comming in the Crash Course DLC, who knows? but the point is that a sequel was announced when the original still has major problems.

 

[Andy Chalk]

How can you be dissatisfied etc.

Dude, you're backtracking. This is what you said:

I think if someone doesn't like the way a company handles their product they should either try and get a job there to make changes, start their own company, or shut the fuck up and not be such babies. Taking it upon yourself to try and get a business to give you what you want is ascenine and juvenile

And now you're suggesting that you get to be the arbitrator of when people should and shouldn't be dissatisfied with a product or a company? That's some wild stuff.

 

[quiet_samurai]

How can you be dissatisfied etc.

Dude, you're backtracking. This is what you said:

I think if someone doesn't like the way a company handles their product they should either try and get a job there to make changes, start their own company, or shut the fuck up and not be such babies. Taking it upon yourself to try and get a business to give you what you want is ascenine and juvenile

And now you're suggesting that you get to be the arbitrator of when people should and shouldn't be dissatisfied with a product or a company? That's some wild stuff.

No, what I meant is that their hate for something they have never tried (L4D2) is unfounded. And until it was announced they had no problems with the original installment (at least vocally). I never said anything about what they should like or not like as far as being satisfied with a product goes. I'm just saying they are being babies about not getting exactly what they want and so they throw a fit at something they have never even tried yet without giving it a chance.

 

[Walking_Target]

No, what I meant is that their hate for something they have never tried (L4D2) is unfounded. And until it was announced they had no problems with the original installment (at least vocally). I never said anything about what they should like or not like as far as being satisfied with a product goes. I'm just saying they are being babies about not getting exactly what they want and so they throw a fit at something they have never even tried yet without giving it a chance.

I responded. I have tried L4D2 and I do like it. However I am not satisfied with the level of support for L4D in comparison to 'planned' support. Therefore I will not purchase the sequel until the original product has recieved at least some of the planned support.

If you would bother to do research before posting, you would see that plenty of people had a problem with the game long before L4D2 was announced.

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=751344

That's the bugs list. The date the OP posted the thread was actually 2 days before the official release of the PC version in the US. I would take that to mean that people have been compliling bugs to report to Valve since the demo launched. The list is still pretty massive. It's been over 10 months.

That's why a lot of people are angry.

If you want to understand the other reasons people are angry, just look at the total number of updates/patchs for L4D compared to TF2. Things don't match up, not even close. Then Valve announces a sequel to what a lot of people feel is a poorly supported game.

That's why people are dissatisfied.

 

[junkmanuk]

Removed for brevity...

Thanks very much for the candid and comprehensive responses to my, and all the other, questions. I do agree with your points, and I think everyone agrees that Valve have a very astute marketing team!

Another thing that springs to mind - probably an oft raised question for you:
Why is it acceptable for EA (for example) to release a totally new version of Fifa every year but Valve, through their own volition, are being held to trial for not extending DLC support? They could easily call themselves martyrs for the modern game industry (although it would be a cheap shot and not their style) as they effectively pioneered (decent) content delivery and popularised DLC but are now being harassed for failed to provide enough.

Anyway... While I'm still not sold on the the boycott (although I can understand where you're coming from) I do have a huge respect for you and wish you all the best!

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=751344
That's the bugs list.

You want to try playing Arma 2 if you want bugs

A lot of these bugs are trivial to say the least. Speaking as a previous software developer, I'd consider reports of "Ragdolls getting stuck in the clipping?" and "You can see unsaved survivors pounding the air." as totally non-justifiable bugs. Seriously - how do these impact the gameplay to any negative amount? The graphics card crashes, and connection errors are genuine issues and really this list should take the severity of these into account other it just blurs into one big 'whine' list...

 

[Walking_Target]

I've got to agree with you on the triviality of some of those bugs. Crashes and bugs that lend unfair advantage to one team are things that do need to be addressed though. Again, bad hitbox registration, poor hit detection for Boomer attacks, etc.

Then there's exploits that exist in the game, like being able to have all 4 survivors stack in a corner and clip models (aka. shiva stacking, corner camping), so it becomes nigh-on-impossible to actually take them down; there's also 'rushing'. There is nothing to prevent a team of survivors from rushing through most maps. With luck (and no tank spawn) this means that an average group of survivors can run through a map in about 2:00-3:00 minutes. That leaves the Special Infected team with between 6-9 chances maximum, to launch a perfectly coordinated attack on the survivors. There has been a lot of discussion on the Steam forums on how to fix some of these issues. The Spitter and Charger that appear in L4D2 have been mentioned in numerous itterations on the forums as fixes to these exploits. While I know Valve didn't steal any ideas from the community, it's highly ironic that they came up with the same kind of ideas to fix known problems. People who play L4D just want fixes to these exploits in one form or another and some balancing.


As to holding Valve to a higher standard, this is where they've shot themselves in the foot.

They're very well known for supporting their games, they talked a lot about what level of support could be expected for L4D and when you compare planned support to actual support it appears severely lacking.

It's true to an extent, that if EA pulled something like this, no one would be surprised. People would be disappointed, but not surprised. That's because EA is one of (if not *the*) bad child of the gaming industry, they want your money and don't care too much about how they get it so long as they can count on getting your money again. This means games that recieve just enough support/content to work and little or nothing else. This is despite the fact that EA is usually just a publisher/distributor for software.

Valve on the other hand, is the consumate 'good guy' in the gaming world. They support HL to this day, over 10 years of constant support and patches. They are extremely well known for supporting not only their games, but the communities that work with those games. Counter Strike, Insurgency: MIC and Day of Defeat are all examples of community created content that Valve bought from the creators. We met and talked with one of the folks who created/worked on DoD when it was a HL mod, now a Valve employee.

I digress though.

Valve is known for supporting their games and doing a very good job of it. A sequel to a game within a year is a first for Valve. A sequel to a game that still has crashing/balance/exploit issues is not really a good thing for any developer, never mind one that compared planned support to one of, if not *the* best supported titles of all time. When they failed to deliver on their stated plans, it made a lot of fans unhappy, but almost all were willing to trust them and wait, because it's Valve. When a sequel was released, the sense of betrayal on the L4D Steam forum was palpable, no matter if it may have been ill waranted or not.

In a sense, Valve are victims of their own success.

 

[pneuma08]

Rushing and shiva stacking aren't a balance issue, as the nature of Versus is symmetrical. Shiva stacking makes for poor gameplay during the "Crescendo" moments (where it's useful, as the survivors are pinned to a location anyhow), but most of the differences between the Infected and Survivors are irrelevant to "balance" because once the tables are turned, every advantage is now a disadvantage. Shiva stacks aren't the end-all-be-all either; I've seen them be pulled apart by a clever Smoker and sometimes when the survivors aren't paying attention someone can get pinned by a Hunter in the corner (although the latter is something that shouldn't happen). Beyond the crescendo events, the Finales are all about the tanks anyhow (which shiva stacking is ineffective against, and "rushing" is irrelevent).

Furthermore, they've fixed a bunch of "exploits" that were TOO good (such as the elevator blocking in No Mercy). I think what's going on here is a different perspective on what is an "exploit" or "imbalance".

And EA bashing...okay. But what about every other developer out there? Nintendo, Microsoft, Rockstar, Bungie, Epic...not one of them could be faulted for the reasons Valve are here.

So, Valve shot themselves in the foot by talking about what they wanted to do for L4D. Clearly, this means they should stop such practices.

 

[camazotz]

Well, I enjoy L4D and will be picking up L4D2, and my purchase was based on finding the game on a store shelf and what the actual box promised in terms of content, not what prospective interviews leading up through the development stage promised. Still, I can understand the boycott concept here, and how it's primarily about the desire for existing players to see content fixes and/or promised expansions (as related in various pre-release interviews and dev talks, apparently) actually come to pass. However, this does not affect me as a more casual gamer (irony never escapes me when I realize that despite the fact that gaming is my main form of entertainment, I am simply not hardcore enough to get worked up about developer promises). I will delete L4D from the roster when L4D2 arrives to focus on the new game; I have limited time, and am in all likelihood the target demographic for a new release at this point: I guy who bases his purchase on the fact that Valve has produced fun games before, and will do so again, and who will base expectations on what the game box says (here's looking at you and your DX10 coverage, AoC).

In any case, good luck with getting your demands, as such, met. I've already gotten my money's worth out of L4D and am ready to move on.

 

[Lester G]

What the heck is wrong with all these people ragging on the boycotters? It's called "CONSUMER RIGHTS". If there had been no boycott, there would have been less pressure on Valve to follow through with their statements, or to let people know they haven't forgotten about it. All these little kiddies (or quasi-face Communists) seem to hate any notion of "CONSUMER FEEDBACK" or "Boytcotts" with a seething rage.

Does no one understand basic economics? Supplier sells good. Consumers buy it. If a business does something that the consumers dislike, they have two choices: 1) Listen to the consumers or 2) ignore them and become like EA.

Now, from what the anti-boycotters are saying, no company should EVER listen to people's complaints. Protests are BAD and DICTATORSHIPS are good. You are all essentially saying: "No! You must buy this game and you will like it!". We should act like good Communists, keep our mouth shut and accept L4D 2 as a money grabbing sequel.

How many of these anti-boycotters ***** constantly about how little Zelda and Mario games change, or how mediocre Halo has become? Well? YOU F*CKING BOYCOTT A PRODUCT TO STATE YOUR OPINION.

These haters seem less mature than these supposed rabid boycotters. It is good that people stood up when they thought they were getting screwed, it is even better that Valve clarified the issue about further support for L4D 1. Except for those morons out there who act as if they won some imaginary competition.