Lessons learned from Persona 5: What did it do so right for the JRPG.

gyrobot_v1legacy

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Given last year's slump of JRPG devs trying to revive the JRPG genre. SE proved just how senile it is by scoring even lower for a mainline JRPG title by falling way below the metacritic standards for a AAA title.

3 months later, a string of successes from Japan's bumper crop of quality games from Yakuza to Nioh. Persona 5 stood above the rest with near universal acclaim on metacritic with zero mixed or negative reviews.

So what did it do so damn right to earn such praise
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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Absurd attention to detail, stayed true to its roots as opposed to trying to please non-fans or westerners who don't like Japanese games, interesting and unique characters and story, turn based gameplay, dual audio and especially top tier Japanese voice actors. 100+ hours of meaningful content for a single playthrough, mine took 150 trying to do everything possible and take my time.


It basically did nothing wrong and was one of the few games that lived up to the hype so in this environment where you have a lot of westernization or americanization happen in games persona is uniquely Japanese and it stands out.
 

balladbird

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Turn based combat isn't dead, but it's important that you structure it correctly. A brainless affair where you just pick the "attack" command each turn quickly gets tedious. Best to structure your combat like a sort of puzzle game, where discovering the ideal sequence of moves is the point of the fight.

Also, telling a longer story by using minimalist and budget-saving methods for less important scenes. That's the one thing I keep hoping western devs will eventually pick up on, so I can eventually stop being asked to spend 60 bucks for 8 hour games. Not every line of dialogue needs to be voiced, and you don't need to use cutting-edge assets for every story event.

also, as has been stated, a sense of style doesn't hurt, either.
 

Erttheking

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Mixing gameplay and story. Social Links (Yeah, I don't care that they're called Confidants, they're Social Links) have significance from both a story and gameplay perspective. Story because you get to know the characters better, gameplay because it increases how powerful your Personas are, as well as all the other gameplay benefits that come with them, (a lot of stuff that wasn't in the previous games, like increased EXP boosts, negotiation abilities, better item deals, stuff that made the game EVEN BETTER than 4 and 3) all the while mixing with the series' themes of friendship and the value of it in a way that actually bears fruit and isn't just a stock aseop.

Seriously, this game just does so much right.
 

DaCosta

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What it did was a good story and engaging gameplay. The latter it accomplished with the same turn-based combat design that the Shin Megami Tensei series has had since forever: where it ensures that the combat is more challenging than just mashing the confirm button to keep using the regular attack for 90% of the game, and giving the player both an "auto-battle function" and a "fast-forward function", so that if you are fighting a lower level enemy and just using the regular attack actually is a viable tactic, then the game won't waste your time with it. Thus ensuring that any battle that would be boring and mindless filler will be over in a second, leaving only the interesting battles to occupy your time.

Wait a second...didn't Bravely Second have those exact same features last year? As well as a more robust auto-battle function and the ability to increase and lower the random encounter rate? Didn't Bravely Default a few years back also have those features? Weren't those pretty good games? And weren't they made by Square Enix?

B-b-but Square Enix only makes Final Fantasy! And we all know that their games are all terrible, right?! What does this mean?!
 

gyrobot_v1legacy

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DaCosta said:
What it did was a good story and engaging gameplay. The latter it accomplished with the same turn-based combat design that the Shin Megami Tensei series has had since forever: where it ensures that the combat is more challenging than just mashing the confirm button to keep using the regular attack for 90% of the game, and giving the player both an "auto-battle function" and a "fast-forward function", so that if you are fighting a lower level enemy and just using the regular attack actually is a viable tactic, then the game won't waste your time with it. Thus ensuring that any battle that would be boring and mindless filler will be over in a second, leaving only the interesting battles to occupy your time.

Wait a second...didn't Bravely Second have those exact same features last year? As well as a more robust auto-battle function and the ability to increase and lower the random encounter rate? Didn't Bravely Default a few years back also have those features? Weren't those pretty good games? And weren't they made by Square Enix?

B-b-but Square Enix only makes Final Fantasy! And we all know that their games are all terrible, right?! What does this mean?!
The FF series has declined to the point it has become a joke, a reminder that Square Enix is held together by the companies it bought out...oh wait what happened to eidos and Deus Ex and United Front with Sleeping Dogs.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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DaCosta said:
What it did was a good story and engaging gameplay. The latter it accomplished with the same turn-based combat design that the Shin Megami Tensei series has had since forever: where it ensures that the combat is more challenging than just mashing the confirm button to keep using the regular attack for 90% of the game, and giving the player both an "auto-battle function" and a "fast-forward function", so that if you are fighting a lower level enemy and just using the regular attack actually is a viable tactic, then the game won't waste your time with it. Thus ensuring that any battle that would be boring and mindless filler will be over in a second, leaving only the interesting battles to occupy your time.

Wait a second...didn't Bravely Second have those exact same features last year? As well as a more robust auto-battle function and the ability to increase and lower the random encounter rate? Didn't Bravely Default a few years back also have those features? Weren't those pretty good games? And weren't they made by Square Enix?

B-b-but Square Enix only makes Final Fantasy! And we all know that their games are all terrible, right?! What does this mean?!
I believe that Bravely series was made by a third party and published by SE and it also utilized some of their classical FF elements. Basically, point being it wasn't an in-studio thing.


And yeah I agree with the general point about RPGs not having been in a bad place until P5 hit, just, the good ones were not as popular.


balladbird said:
Turn based combat isn't dead, but it's important that you structure it correctly. A brainless affair where you just pick the "attack" command each turn quickly gets tedious. Best to structure your combat like a sort of puzzle game, where discovering the ideal sequence of moves is the point of the fight.

Also, telling a longer story by using minimalist and budget-saving methods for less important scenes. That's the one thing I keep hoping western devs will eventually pick up on, so I can eventually stop being asked to spend 60 bucks for 8 hour games. Not every line of dialogue needs to be voiced, and you don't need to use cutting-edge assets for every story event.

also, as has been stated, a sense of style doesn't hurt, either.

See, that's my issue with action rpgs, actually. Most of the time, as long as you have a basic competence, you will use a HELL of a lot more basic attacks while blocking or dodging, while in most rpgs you have to use more magic or special abilities.

I'm used to action games in the vein of bayonetta or even with the depth of competitive fighting games so too often what I run into in Arpgs is a very basic and simplistic system which leaves me both unsatisfied on a strategic level AND on a style/adrenaline-coursing action level. Arpgs basically tend to blue-ball me too often sadly. The best one is probably Dragon's Dogma if we examine gameplay alone, there's a few other ones too, but most traditional Arpgs like KH I feel would be better as turn based. The only exception here is the Tales series which basically is a fighting game (and has combo videos made about it) in Arpg form, which I think is about the only way of achieving an interesting Arpg without going full Revengeance/Nier.
 

Casual Shinji

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Well, style mostly. Lots and lots of style.

Beyond that I don't think it really does much "so right". Not that it does them wrong, but I wouldn't say it does them any better than other JRPGs I've played. But take this as the opinion of someone who has never played a Persona game prior.

The biggest criticism I have is the whole time management, which is on auto-pilot more than half the time, giving you at best two time slots a day. And that's only if the game doesn't decide you're not allowed even that cuz reasons.

The level design of the Palaces are a bit samey and not even that good to begin with. You're just running through corridors every time.

The characters, while likeable, become pretty one-note once their moment of triumph has past. Ruiji started out as my favourite character, but now he's just the dummy always saying dumb things cuz look, he's such a dummy. Same for Yusuke and Makoto.

The turn-based combat is great, except on the few occasions where it suddenly throws an insta-kill move at you. But overall it really allows you to string some cool shit together.

And after the first Palace the story becomes extremely predictable. It more or less falls into the same notes from then on with every new target. The only one that changed things up a bit was Futaba, but after that it was right back to the formula. I haven't finished it yet and I do feel like some twist is about to occur, but that doesn't change the fact that every target/Palace apart from one was the same just with new wallpaper.

I do really like the game, but I like it inspite of a lot of its awkward mechanics and level design.
 

09philj

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It's another Persona game, and it's been a while since we had the last one. If every JRPG was like Persona I'd quickly grow to hate the genre. Persona is most certainly not a series for everyone, and it's particular formula is best enjoyed only once in a while, lest the punishing difficulty, daunting complexity, gentle pacing, and Scooby Doo characters wear you down. It's most certainly a highly rewarding series, but absolutely should not be used as a template for the majority of JRPGs.
 

stroopwafel

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For starters P5 is a traditional JRPG you don't really see that often anymore on consoles(it's only this and..Tales I think?) So by that alone there isn't a lot of choice if you enjoy these kinda games. Why Persona in particular is so popular is I think the school setting which makes it easy for people to relate to. It isn't just set dressing either as you actively go to school and make friends and form relationships with these people that feed back into the gameplay. The characters themselves are endearing with a juvenile innocence and sincerity that contrast the colorful bad guys you love to hate. The story itself touches on relevant contemporary social themes without being pretentious or obnoxious about it. P5 also handles it's more serious subject matter in an adult manner but never goes overboard and keeps a more light-hearted tone to remain engaging and not wear you down over the dozens of hours it takes to complete this game. The humor in particular can also be quite funny.

The graphics are beautiful and look like they are from a high quality anime show. The music is either catchy or sets the tone without getting on your nerves. Palaces might be structurally the same but as manifestations of different personalities they do atleast keep it aesthetically different. The turn-based combat might be the best I've ever played(and I've played an absolute shit ton of JRPGs back in the day) and the inclusion of mainline SMT demon recruiting is a nice addition to keep things varied and mitigate some of the repetition.

P5's biggest draw is I think that it keeps you engaged. Both gameplay, graphics and overall style is implemented incredibly well but it's the likeable cast and gradual attachment to the setting and story that keeps you interested. From the SMT series of games and spin-offs I'd probably rank this next to my all-time favorite Digital Devil Saga 1 & 2.
 

CritialGaming

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gyrobot said:
Given last year's slump of JRPG devs trying to revive the JRPG genre. SE proved just how senile it is by scoring even lower for a mainline JRPG title by falling way below the metacritic standards for a AAA title.

3 months later, a string of successes from Japan's bumper crop of quality games from Yakuza to Nioh. Persona 5 stood above the rest with near universal acclaim on metacritic with zero mixed or negative reviews.

So what did it do so damn right to earn such praise
Well I think it is important to say this. Persona 5 did absolutely NOTHING different from the classic JRPG's of old. Which is something I think a lot of people have been wanting for a long time. JRPG's for the longest time have been trying to constantly reinvent the wheel, and they are missing the very thing that people loved about the genre to begin with. We've seen it with Final Fantasy games for a long time, to the point where Final Fantasy barely even connects to it's roots anymore.

What Persona 5 is give us a strong traditional JRPG. A strong formula that Japan thinks is outdated, when it clearly is a format that makes for very very strong games that people still want and still love.

I find it interest that all these JRPG's keep trying to change shit up, yet the highest praised JRPG's in recent memory (PErsona and Bravely Default) do nothing but if us old school JRPG's and they show the demand for such games.

So no, Persona 5, doesn't really do anything remarkable. It's got a fantastic style to it, a great presentation, a great story, and simply offers solid, standard, jrpg combat. It's perfect for that really.
 

DaCosta

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Dreiko said:
DaCosta said:
What it did was a good story and engaging gameplay. The latter it accomplished with the same turn-based combat design that the Shin Megami Tensei series has had since forever: where it ensures that the combat is more challenging than just mashing the confirm button to keep using the regular attack for 90% of the game, and giving the player both an "auto-battle function" and a "fast-forward function", so that if you are fighting a lower level enemy and just using the regular attack actually is a viable tactic, then the game won't waste your time with it. Thus ensuring that any battle that would be boring and mindless filler will be over in a second, leaving only the interesting battles to occupy your time.

Wait a second...didn't Bravely Second have those exact same features last year? As well as a more robust auto-battle function and the ability to increase and lower the random encounter rate? Didn't Bravely Default a few years back also have those features? Weren't those pretty good games? And weren't they made by Square Enix?

B-b-but Square Enix only makes Final Fantasy! And we all know that their games are all terrible, right?! What does this mean?!
I believe that Bravely series was made by a third party and published by SE and it also utilized some of their classical FF elements. Basically, point being it wasn't an in-studio thing.


And yeah I agree with the general point about RPGs not having been in a bad place until P5 hit, just, the good ones were not as popular.
The game was a spiritual sequel to the Final Fantasy: 4 Heroes of the Light series on the DS.

I'm just sick of people who barely know JRPGs continuing to judge the entire genre by how the mainline Final Fantasy series is doing. With the development of these big AAA games taking longer and longer if a FF game comes out and is panned we might spend a whole generation listening to how "JRPGs are dead!", like we did in the last generation.

And even that too, considering a lot of the old FFs are guilty of the mindless "just spam attack" combat that I mentioned, I don't think the series is some kind of sacred cow that should be put on this enormous pedestal so many people have put it on. It has good games and not so good games that should be judged on their own merits, just like every other game series, and SE shouldn't be either canonized nor demonized for what they do with it.

Of course, the reason for this is because a FF game was likely the first JRPG they've ever played, first of just a few too probably, so now they say that that game they have nostalgia for is the best JRPG ever, like the genre hasn't evolved at all in two whole decades. It's like going around and saying that Dragon Ball Z is the best anime ever just because it was the first one they watched as a child.
 

SlumlordThanatos

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stroopwafel said:
The characters themselves are endearing with a juvenile innocence and sincerity that contrast the colorful bad guys you love to hate.
Really, if Ryuji would just shut the fuck up, I wouldn't be able to think of a main party member that I actively dislike.

That's a welcome change from Persona 4, when I desperately wanted to wrap Rise, Yosuke, and Teddie into a tarp and pitch them off of the tallest building in Inaba. Or off of a bridge. Either/or.

I mean, even Morgana isn't nearly as annoying as Teddie, despite being the resident mascot character. Chalk that one up as a win.
 

09philj

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CritialGaming said:
gyrobot said:
Given last year's slump of JRPG devs trying to revive the JRPG genre. SE proved just how senile it is by scoring even lower for a mainline JRPG title by falling way below the metacritic standards for a AAA title.

3 months later, a string of successes from Japan's bumper crop of quality games from Yakuza to Nioh. Persona 5 stood above the rest with near universal acclaim on metacritic with zero mixed or negative reviews.

So what did it do so damn right to earn such praise
Well I think it is important to say this. Persona 5 did absolutely NOTHING different from the classic JRPG's of old.
What the devil are you smoking? Persona as a series heavily deviates from traditional JRPG tropes and mechanics. For a start, it's a dungeon crawler, which is an increasingly popular style of JRPG, but largely due to the influence and success of Shin Megami Tensei and Etrian Odyssey. The structure of plot and gameplay is also very different to other JRPGs. While the general trend is to have you traverse a large overworld which must be traversed to travel between towns and dungeons. Usually each new town will give you a chance to find a small amount of optional content, often including sidequests of varying sizes. Instead of that, Persona one large town tightly packed with miscellaneous activities. The plot is not driven by your party reaching new places, but by the passage of time in one place. This also removes the luxury of simply being able to divert yourself from the main plot to indulge in completing a particular side task. On top of all that, skills and levelling are hardly conventional. Whereas most games will give you a linear set of skills (Or sometimes a skill tree) to learn, or use a job system, Persona follows in it's progenitor SMT's footsteps by having a selection of weird and wonderful creatures you must collect and fuse in order to stay on the level curve. You want a JRPG that did nothing different but did it well? Bravely Default.
 

Artina89

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I must admit, Persona 5 is the one 100+ hour game I didn't tire of in a long while, as I don't really have the time to play and enjoy games as much as I used to. I enjoyed all the characters, with the exception of Ryuji, who at times would actively try my patience. I also really enjoyed the comic strip like aesthetic that the game employed, as well as the "hold up" option of gaining Personas as opposed to the traditional "drawing Persona cards from your mind" that was one of the main ways of gaining Personas in the past games in the franhise.
 

CritialGaming

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09philj said:
CritialGaming said:
gyrobot said:
Given last year's slump of JRPG devs trying to revive the JRPG genre. SE proved just how senile it is by scoring even lower for a mainline JRPG title by falling way below the metacritic standards for a AAA title.

3 months later, a string of successes from Japan's bumper crop of quality games from Yakuza to Nioh. Persona 5 stood above the rest with near universal acclaim on metacritic with zero mixed or negative reviews.

So what did it do so damn right to earn such praise
Well I think it is important to say this. Persona 5 did absolutely NOTHING different from the classic JRPG's of old.
What the devil are you smoking? Persona as a series heavily deviates from traditional JRPG tropes and mechanics. For a start, it's a dungeon crawler, which is an increasingly popular style of JRPG, but largely due to the influence and success of Shin Megami Tensei and Etrian Odyssey. The structure of plot and gameplay is also very different to other JRPGs. While the general trend is to have you traverse a large overworld which must be traversed to travel between towns and dungeons. Usually each new town will give you a chance to find a small amount of optional content, often including sidequests of varying sizes. Instead of that, Persona one large town tightly packed with miscellaneous activities. The plot is not driven by your party reaching new places, but by the passage of time in one place. This also removes the luxury of simply being able to divert yourself from the main plot to indulge in completing a particular side task. On top of all that, skills and levelling are hardly conventional. Whereas most games will give you a linear set of skills (Or sometimes a skill tree) to learn, or use a job system, Persona follows in it's progenitor SMT's footsteps by having a selection of weird and wonderful creatures you must collect and fuse in order to stay on the level curve. You want a JRPG that did nothing different but did it well? Bravely Default.
The presentation of the story is not a fair comparison. I'm speaking directly from gameplay, or namely combat. I didn't see anything in combat that was different than other classic Jrpg's. The story is delivered in much the same manner as the other 4 persona's so you can even really label it as new or different at this point either.

Personas 5's weakest area imo, is sidequests, which really bog down to getting a message or meeting with Nishima and having him tell you about someone bitching on a website you never get to see. I think it would have been far cooler to give the player access to the Phan-site via their phone and let you browse through forum requests and select the ones you want to do on your own. These could have still been time gated, but it would give the player some interactivity in choosing them and when.

Ironically the biggest thing Persona lacks is exploration. A key factor is every JRPG has been exploring a big world, where you proceed through the story along they way. However what Persona does is tells a much tighter story, because it controls where the player can be at any given time. I would argue this is part of Persona's style. But this story presentation doesn't set it apart from JRPG's to me. It doesn't even set it apart from other Persona games.

To me it did everything it did well, it just didn't do anything all that differently. But mileage may vary.
 

go-10

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jRPGs were in a bad place?

first time I hear of this :O I played a lot of jRPGs I enjoyed last year... maybe I have low standards or something?

anyways yeah P5 was pretty good but I don't think it was the greatest thing ever. I still prefer P4 characters over P5 cast. As a game what P5 did right was modernization, it finally caught up with the times. abandoned random dungeons. and minimized dull days to the point that no time feels like wasted time. The story was pretty good too it kept you engaged... tbh I don't feel P5 did anything new, it just did the same things jRPGs have always done it just made sure to do them well.
 

Fappy

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I have to echo others who say that JRPGs weren't in a particularly bad place. We've had a lot of great ones since Persona 4 came out nine years ago. Hell, I finally got around to starting SMT IV: Apocalypse, and have been struggling to put it down in order to finish platinuming P5.

I literally don't have enough time to play all the good JRPGs out there right now >.>
 

Here Comes Tomorrow

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I can see how people would think P5 is some kind of breath of fresh air but it really isn't. I actually think it's worse than P4 in a lot of ways. I literally just finished P5 about an hour ago and for the last 20 hours of my 100 hour play through it's just felt dragged out. Maybe it was just wearing thin because I wanted to get on with my backlog but I never felt that playing P3/4.

Usually I'd be eager to go back into NG+ and do all the stuff I missed because I play blind on first runs but I'm not really feeling it this time.