LET'S (NOT) RESPECT EACH OTHER?S TASTES (OR: "THIS GAME ISN'T FOR YOU, AND THAT'S (NOT) OKAY")

gyrobot_v1legacy

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https://moegamer.net/2019/09/17/lets-respect-each-others-tastes-or-this-game-isnt-for-you-and-thats-okay/

A couple of days ago Pat o'Reilly from Nintendo Life have given multiple titles. Latest on the lampoon list was Gun Gun Pixies. A port of a VITA game that hallmarked the waning years of Vita as nothimg more than a handheld for niche fanservice games instead of quality titles.

https://www.nintendolife.com/reviews/nintendo-switch/gun_gun_pixies

Pete Davison, being the one of the few to openly admit his love for Ecchi games have tried to get Pat to respond only to be blocked by Pat along with several of Pete's followers on Twitter who were also blocked.

As for my take on this...

I disagree with this statement as Pete Davison is defending low quality games as something to defend and expects critics to not say their tastes are awful. Critics exists for a reason beyond affirming your tastes as good, if your tastes in gaming is shit. Then either accept it or change your tastes like I did from neptunia to Yakuza.

So what is your take on the situation. Should critics respect their tastes or continue to be actual critics and not give a single inch to this audience.
 

McElroy

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Defending ecchi games says less about the game and more about the one defending it. From the moegamer article:
Games like this have not affected my worldview in any way other than teaching me what I know I like, and through bringing me joy with their bright colours, energetic characters, cheerfully silly stories and total confidence in what they are.
You like trash, Pete. O'Reilly gives a good review of that trash and even writes that if one enjoys trash like it and is willing to gloss over it being a bad game, it can be a joy.
 

Drathnoxis

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What? I don't understand what you are talking about. Is this some sort of Internet Drama thing? Can we stuff this kind of thing in Current Events as well?
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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I don't see the conflict between being a critic and also having a taste for any sort of game. The issue isn't as much that this or that critic doesn't respect some niche's tastes but rather that there seems to be a sort of opinion-bubble in a lot of big critic places which doesn't include the critique of people who actually think different, of those who would for example, not find this gun pixies game "trash".

At this point, it's less "take heed of my feelings cause I'm your audience" and more "you clearly have a bias you're either unaware of or you are fond of and are refusing to do anything about it, so I'll look elsewhere for critique".



The notion that any working game that doesn't crash all day or destroy your device is objectively "trash" is patently ridiculous. Similarly, the notion that a fanbase has to acknowledge the trashiness and just say they enjoy trash, simply because some clique deemed it so, is equally ridiculous. If this clique is expecting MONEY from the people they deride, in the form of clicks to their websites, well, they've got another thing coming lol.


Finally, some fanservice games, like all games, are good, others are bad. The only thing that's definite is that no entire genre of game is universally "low quality", so anyone attempting to make that case is already by definition wrong. You see, one could easily make this same case for most franchise based games (outside of like, db fighterz and the new digimon games), they could make the case for sports games, they could make the case for anything with an established IP that's making a mediocre cash cow game that'll sell just because of the ip. Thing is though, those games don't come with a side of kink-shaming the fanbase of those games, with a side of those not in the fanbase feeling superior to that fanbase generating clicks. So they're much less lucrative articles to do and opinions to hold. At this point, one has to look honestly at what's taking place there when an article is written about games that maybe 20k people in the country are even aware the existence of, and dismiss it accordingly.
 

CaitSeith

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Let's respect each other's tastes. That includes not getting angry when someone else doesn't enjoy what you like, ok? This is my main problem with Pat:

Whatever a creator decides to create, we should respect their intentions. And, by extension, we should respect the audience it ends up attracting
Err... those two are unrelated (just compare MLP's intentions with the audience it end up attracting; or the Room's intentions). Besides, it's ironically hypocritical that he asks to respect other people's tastes, and then implies that disliking ecchi content means to be a hater who shames the fans and causes considerable harm and distress. Or does he think that dislikes aren't part of someone's tastes?
 

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CaitSeith said:
Let's respect each other's tastes. That includes not getting angry when someone else doesn't enjoy what you like, ok? This is my main problem with Pat:

Whatever a creator decides to create, we should respect their intentions. And, by extension, we should respect the audience it ends up attracting
Err... those two are unrelated (just compare MLP's intentions with the audience it end up attracting; or the Room's intentions). Besides, it's ironically hypocritical that he asks to respect other people's tastes, and then implies that disliking ecchi content means to be a hater who shames the fans and causes considerable harm and distress. Or does he think that dislikes aren't part of someone's tastes?
What does 'respect' even mean in this context? Is he suggesting that, becuase you critique or dislike something, that you are not showing respect? That's not how respect works. Respect is where you don't insult someone even if you disagree with them.
 

gyrobot_v1legacy

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trunkage said:
CaitSeith said:
Let's respect each other's tastes. That includes not getting angry when someone else doesn't enjoy what you like, ok? This is my main problem with Pat:

Whatever a creator decides to create, we should respect their intentions. And, by extension, we should respect the audience it ends up attracting
Err... those two are unrelated (just compare MLP's intentions with the audience it end up attracting; or the Room's intentions). Besides, it's ironically hypocritical that he asks to respect other people's tastes, and then implies that disliking ecchi content means to be a hater who shames the fans and causes considerable harm and distress. Or does he think that dislikes aren't part of someone's tastes?
What does 'respect' even mean in this context? Is he suggesting that, becuase you critique or dislike something, that you are not showing respect? That's not how respect works. Respect is where you don't insult someone even if you disagree with them.
O'Reilly made a rather harsh review on several mediocre ecchi game titles and then he blocked Pete for "asking politely" to debate with him to ask for respect.

https://twitter.com/MoeGamer/status/1174228170217857024

And in my opinion, I think Pete should accept the fact his games will never get the respect it "deserves" from the press instead of passive aggressively ranting about how critics hate ecchi games and more about making MoeGamer a profitable venture.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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trunkage said:
CaitSeith said:
Let's respect each other's tastes. That includes not getting angry when someone else doesn't enjoy what you like, ok? This is my main problem with Pat:

Whatever a creator decides to create, we should respect their intentions. And, by extension, we should respect the audience it ends up attracting
Err... those two are unrelated (just compare MLP's intentions with the audience it end up attracting; or the Room's intentions). Besides, it's ironically hypocritical that he asks to respect other people's tastes, and then implies that disliking ecchi content means to be a hater who shames the fans and causes considerable harm and distress. Or does he think that dislikes aren't part of someone's tastes?
What does 'respect' even mean in this context? Is he suggesting that, becuase you critique or dislike something, that you are not showing respect? That's not how respect works. Respect is where you don't insult someone even if you disagree with them.
I think he's talking about the tone some reviews have that treat certain games as inherently unserious or frivolous, implying that only creepy weirdoes would ever play them, irrespective of their qualities beyond fanservice simply due to the inclusion of a certain unspecified amount of it. Even full fledged fighting games like DoA don't escape that smear and nobody can argue that series plays "low quality" in any sense.


You can respectfully list the issues you have with a game without making liking it into a personality flaw.

Also, ideally, you'd wanna judge whether a game is good or bad on what it's actually trying to be. Lots of reviews go "this is an ecchi game, which is bad" and not "this is a bad ecchi game". The former is a useless opinion for every single audience member because it indicates that no matter how good the game, it being ecchi automatically makes it bad in the eyes of the reviewer. Whereas people are reading the review with the expectation of learning which of the ecchi fandom's hopes does the game meet and which it does not. A competent and respectful review will be actually cognizant of these hopes and in some fashion at least ATTEMPT to address them in critiquing the game, not outright reject them as faulty and tell people that they shouldn't be hoping for what they like because it's immoral according to the reviewer.

Nobody gives a damn about the reviewer, we're just trying to figure out the ratio of panties to bounces in this game ffs.
 

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Looking over the review of the game, I don't see how you don't see that the maker of it did indeed review the game purely because they felt it deserved ridicule because it is an ecchi game.

Now I don't know how good this game actually is, I didn't feel like it was my kind of game but I have many games with ecchi content that do in fact have deep moments and are worthy of respect but won't because of these things.

One such game, and I've talked about it here before, is Criminal Girls. It has a mini-game that involves a lot of light bdsm. It's also one of the most pro women games I've ever played.

You play as a silent protagonist and your contribution to the story is almost entirely just that you are the one that makes decisions for combat. All of the primary characters are female, they have real world issues that they are dealing and these issues are resolved because of them supporting each other after going through a lot of conflict.

It also has very unique gameplay where you do not directly control the characters in fights but rather give them "suggestions" on what they can do, the only thing that you can do on command is direct one of the characters to put up a super guard and use items. Every character has a different role and all of them are useful, they are the fighters, they do the work, they have the character development.

It is a very good game that is never going to be recognized because of the ecchi element. I'm fine with that, that ecchi element can be a deal breaker for some people and that's fair and a fair review of the game would point this out if they felt it was an issue that people should be aware of when considering to get the game but that's different from someone looking at the game and deciding it's easy kudos to bash a game they are not interested in.

There are lots of reviews that have a certain genre or type of game that they prefer, atmospheric games, horror games, shooter games. If this reviewer isn't interested in this kind of game then why are they reviewing it? Would you ever trust a review from someone like MovieBob on the quality of a shooter game when it is well known that they HATE the genre from the outset?

I remember how not too long ago people would say about games like walking simulators or very niche indie games about topics like depression that they aren't for everyone and that if it's not your kind of game then you don't need to play it and it's just not for you but those same people will drop that argument when it comes to something they personally don't like.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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Specter Von Baren said:
Looking over the review of the game, I don't see how you don't see that the maker of it did indeed review the game purely because they felt it deserved ridicule because it is an ecchi game.

Now I don't know how good this game actually is, I didn't feel like it was my kind of game but I have many games with ecchi content that do in fact have deep moments and are worthy of respect but won't because of these things.

One such game, and I've talked about it here before, is Criminal Girls. It has a mini-game that involves a lot of light bdsm. It's also one of the most pro women games I've ever played.

You play as a silent protagonist and your contribution to the story is almost entirely just that you are the one that makes decisions for combat. All of the primary characters are female, they have real world issues that they are dealing and these issues are resolved because of them supporting each other after going through a lot of conflict.

It also has very unique gameplay where you do not directly control the characters in fights but rather give them "suggestions" on what they can do, the only thing that you can do on command is direct one of the characters to put up a super guard and use items. Every character has a different role and all of them are useful, they are the fighters, they do the work, they have the character development.

It is a very good game that is never going to be recognized because of the ecchi element. I'm fine with that, that ecchi element can be a deal breaker for some people and that's fair and a fair review of the game would point this out if they felt it was an issue that people should be aware of when considering to get the game but that's different from someone looking at the game and deciding it's easy kudos to bash a game they are not interested in.

There are lots of reviews that have a certain genre or type of game that they prefer, atmospheric games, horror games, shooter games. If this reviewer isn't interested in this kind of game then why are they reviewing it? Would you ever trust a review from someone like MovieBob on the quality of a shooter game when it is well known that they HATE the genre from the outset?

I remember how not too long ago people would say about games like walking simulators or very niche indie games about topics like depression that they aren't for everyone and that if it's not your kind of game then you don't need to play it and it's just not for you but those same people will drop that argument when it comes to something they personally don't like.
The thing with criminal girls is that you can actually SKIP the bdsm minigame after you do each form of it once lol. It's intended as a time-saver cause it's the game's form of cashing out your experience and leveling up but if you're one of those people who dislikes fanservice but likes deep stories and interesting characters you can use it to preserve your fragile psyche too.

No, these are just excuses people make to get something catchy to be upset over and get clicks at the expense of the fandom they're supposedly trying to serve with their reviews.

The best part about criminal girls is the way in which it integrates story progress in combat, since initially those "suggestions" you allow the girls to move forward with tend to be cold or antagonistic whereas as the story moves on these same actions receive new lines. Later on you get a bevy of cool teamwork quotes and girls calling eachother by name (or nickname) to perform their combo super moves and so on. You feel like you did a lot of good work rehabilitating them and bringing joy to their lives, which is a success for a game about redeeming sinners from the pits of hell.


The other elements of this game are well, a lot like persona. In a way I enjoy seeing those same people squirm as they have to give praise to stuff like P5 in order to not be laughed out by everyone, when they have spent all this time berating less known/popular games with pretty similar themes. It's a good direction that we're moving towards with games like P5 and Nier and Monster Hunter. They're just popular enough where the grifter critics can't attack them and not expect a proportional response.
 

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Dreiko said:
Also, ideally, you'd wanna judge whether a game is good or bad on what it's actually trying to be. Lots of reviews go "this is an ecchi game, which is bad" and not "this is a bad ecchi game". The former is a useless opinion for every single audience member because it indicates that no matter how good the game, it being ecchi automatically makes it bad in the eyes of the reviewer. Whereas people are reading the review with the expectation of learning which of the ecchi fandom's hopes does the game meet and which it does not. A competent and respectful review will be actually cognizant of these hopes and in some fashion at least ATTEMPT to address them in critiquing the game, not outright reject them as faulty and tell people that they shouldn't be hoping for what they like because it's immoral according to the reviewer.
In the case of Gun Gun Pixies O'Reilly does indeed address the possible joys of the game.

In general what makes ecchi games trash in the eyes of the critic is that they have to review it. Gun Gun Pixie might endure a toy review, but past that it's a cringeworthy piece of media. Video games being toys at their core is the reason why a critic can give GGP 3/10 instead of 1/10.
 

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CaitSeith said:
Dreiko said:
The blogger is just salty because the review's tl;dr was: this is bad even for an ecchi game.
And he also deleted a comment from someone who disagreed and argued on O'Reilly's behalf in saying that his opinion means less in a professional capacity because he makes way less than NL does

Fans of ecchi games have a severe persecution complex from what just happened
 

CaitSeith

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Specter Von Baren said:
Looking over the review of the game, I don't see how you don't see that the maker of it did indeed review the game purely because they felt it deserved ridicule because it is an ecchi game.
Because he doesn't get to choose which games to review.
 

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CaitSeith said:
Specter Von Baren said:
Looking over the review of the game, I don't see how you don't see that the maker of it did indeed review the game purely because they felt it deserved ridicule because it is an ecchi game.
Because he doesn't get to choose which games to review.
The thing is most sites dont even consider this on their backlog of games to cover. Yet when the weebs get bashed for poor tastes, they cant afford to take a hard look at the mirror and ask themselves "Why do I have bad tastes?"
 

CaitSeith

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gyrobot said:
CaitSeith said:
Specter Von Baren said:
Looking over the review of the game, I don't see how you don't see that the maker of it did indeed review the game purely because they felt it deserved ridicule because it is an ecchi game.
Because he doesn't get to choose which games to review.
The thing is most sites dont even consider this on their backlog of games to cover. Yet when the weebs get bashed for poor tastes, they cant afford to take a hard look at the mirror and ask themselves "Why do I have bad tastes?"
There is this part in the blog in which he compares how normal people criticize walking simulators, but only reviewers criticize ecchi games. I kinda agree, but just because normal people would rather pretend that ecchi games don't exist (or really don't know that they exist) than talk about them (a luxury that professional reviewers can't afford).
 

gyrobot_v1legacy

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CaitSeith said:
gyrobot said:
CaitSeith said:
Specter Von Baren said:
Looking over the review of the game, I don't see how you don't see that the maker of it did indeed review the game purely because they felt it deserved ridicule because it is an ecchi game.
Because he doesn't get to choose which games to review.
The thing is most sites dont even consider this on their backlog of games to cover. Yet when the weebs get bashed for poor tastes, they cant afford to take a hard look at the mirror and ask themselves "Why do I have bad tastes?"
There is this part in the blog in which he compares how normal people criticize walking simulators, but only reviewers criticize ecchi games. I kinda agree, but just because normal people would rather pretend that ecchi games don't exist (or really don't know that they exist) than talk about them (a luxury that professional reviewers can't afford).
But Polygon, IGN and Gamespot stopped talking about ecchi games. Hell the Vita port only had Nintendo life reporting it
 

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gyrobot said:
But Polygon, IGN and Gamespot stopped talking about ecchi games. Hell the Vita port only had Nintendo life reporting it
I'd guess Nintendo is the key word here. Nintendo Life wants to be thorough.
CaitSeith said:
There is this part in the blog in which he compares how normal people criticize walking simulators, but only reviewers criticize ecchi games. I kinda agree, but just because normal people would rather pretend that ecchi games don't exist (or really don't know that they exist) than talk about them (a luxury that professional reviewers can't afford).
There is a good reason for normal people to talk about walking simulators. They were getting goty-awards at that one point in time.
 
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Good lord, that was a confusing title. I took me a while to work out wtf all this was about.

Yeah, I dunno, maybe it's just a shit game, maybe not. I think a lot of games with specific themes with a fandom tend to be crappy either because they just use the fan pull to sell or maybe they are really trying but just can't support the budget to make it much better.

I buy a lot of 40k games, fully aware they will likely be at best kinda average and overpriced for what they are, but the theme pulls me through a playthrough. Occasionally one surprises me and it's actually good. I guess fans of ecchi/hentai games get the same thing.

Yes, I imagine games with certain themes will get criticism purely for the theme. I think in some cases for the social stigma of those themes. Doubt many mainstream reviewers want to be known as that guy who likes those underage looking cartoon girl games.


Silentpony said:
Um...echi?
PG13 Hentai
 

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Zykon TheLich said:
Silentpony said:
Um...echi?
PG13 Hentai
It's more like going to a cabaret/burlesque show as opposed to a brothel.

PG13 doesn't really do it justice since it's a lot more about high level titillation not needing explicit content that most people that barely meet the pg13 age group would not even understand.

A prime example that comes to mind was an old ad for dragon quest 9 aimed at young american females. They were touting the insane amount of costumes for the characters (the commercial was almost treating the characters as dolls you play dressup with and not like rpg characters that you'll be using to fight enemies for 99% of your playtime) and one of the outfits in the ad was the classic old school gym outfit (white shirt and bloomers) that's basically fetish cosplay.

It's so high level not even the people editing the official ad in the USA know about it lol.
 
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Dreiko said:
Zykon TheLich said:
Silentpony said:
Um...echi?
PG13 Hentai
It's more like going to a cabaret/burlesque show as opposed to a brothel.

PG13 doesn't really do it justice since it's a lot more about high level titillation not needing explicit content that most people that barely meet the pg13 age group would not even understand.

A prime example that comes to mind was an old ad for dragon quest 9 aimed at young american females. They were touting the insane amount of costumes for the characters (the commercial was almost treating the characters as dolls you play dressup with and not like rpg characters that you'll be using to fight enemies for 99% of your playtime) and one of the outfits in the ad was the classic old school gym outfit (white shirt and bloomers) that's basically fetish cosplay.

It's so high level not even the people editing the official ad in the USA know about it lol.
I feel your answer is wasted on what was a dismissive off the cuff comment. I think silent pony would appreciate that reply more.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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Zykon TheLich said:
Dreiko said:
Zykon TheLich said:
Silentpony said:
Um...echi?
PG13 Hentai
It's more like going to a cabaret/burlesque show as opposed to a brothel.

PG13 doesn't really do it justice since it's a lot more about high level titillation not needing explicit content that most people that barely meet the pg13 age group would not even understand.

A prime example that comes to mind was an old ad for dragon quest 9 aimed at young american females. They were touting the insane amount of costumes for the characters (the commercial was almost treating the characters as dolls you play dressup with and not like rpg characters that you'll be using to fight enemies for 99% of your playtime) and one of the outfits in the ad was the classic old school gym outfit (white shirt and bloomers) that's basically fetish cosplay.

It's so high level not even the people editing the official ad in the USA know about it lol.
I feel your answer is wasted on what was a dismissive off the cuff comment. I think silent pony would appreciate that reply more.
Oh, of course, but by going the extra mile I elevate the discussion from one of mockery to one of education about something I find worthwhile, so it's overall worth it.
 

gyrobot_v1legacy

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Zykon TheLich said:
Good lord, that was a confusing title. I took me a while to work out wtf all this was about.

Yeah, I dunno, maybe it's just a shit game, maybe not. I think a lot of games with specific themes with a fandom tend to be crappy either because they just use the fan pull to sell or maybe they are really trying but just can't support the budget to make it much better.

I buy a lot of 40k games, fully aware they will likely be at best kinda average and overpriced for what they are, but the theme pulls me through a playthrough. Occasionally one surprises me and it's actually good. I guess fans of ecchi/hentai games get the same thing.

Yes, I imagine games with certain themes will get criticism purely for the theme. I think in some cases for the social stigma of those themes. Doubt many mainstream reviewers want to be known as that guy who likes those underage looking cartoon girl games.
Problem is, the critics are using to kick them while they are down, myself included as well.
 

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gyrobot said:
https://moegamer.net/2019/09/17/lets-respect-each-others-tastes-or-this-game-isnt-for-you-and-thats-okay/

A couple of days ago Pat o'Reilly from Nintendo Life have given multiple titles. Latest on the lampoon list was Gun Gun Pixies. A port of a VITA game that hallmarked the waning years of Vita as nothimg more than a handheld for niche fanservice games instead of quality titles.

https://www.nintendolife.com/reviews/nintendo-switch/gun_gun_pixies

Pete Davison, being the one of the few to openly admit his love for Ecchi games have tried to get Pat to respond only to be blocked by Pat along with several of Pete's followers on Twitter who were also blocked.

As for my take on this...

I disagree with this statement as Pete Davison is defending low quality games as something to defend and expects critics to not say their tastes are awful. Critics exists for a reason beyond affirming your tastes as good, if your tastes in gaming is shit. Then either accept it or change your tastes like I did from neptunia to Yakuza.

So what is your take on the situation. Should critics respect their tastes or continue to be actual critics and not give a single inch to this audience.
Pete sounds like a punk ass *****. Kinda reminds me of this one segment here: <link=https://youtu.be/S0MUTrZT8a8?t=149>The 5 Stages of an Anime Fan

EDIT: I put the start time at a better spot.
 

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CoCage said:
gyrobot said:
https://moegamer.net/2019/09/17/lets-respect-each-others-tastes-or-this-game-isnt-for-you-and-thats-okay/

A couple of days ago Pat o'Reilly from Nintendo Life have given multiple titles. Latest on the lampoon list was Gun Gun Pixies. A port of a VITA game that hallmarked the waning years of Vita as nothimg more than a handheld for niche fanservice games instead of quality titles.

https://www.nintendolife.com/reviews/nintendo-switch/gun_gun_pixies

Pete Davison, being the one of the few to openly admit his love for Ecchi games have tried to get Pat to respond only to be blocked by Pat along with several of Pete's followers on Twitter who were also blocked.

As for my take on this...

I disagree with this statement as Pete Davison is defending low quality games as something to defend and expects critics to not say their tastes are awful. Critics exists for a reason beyond affirming your tastes as good, if your tastes in gaming is shit. Then either accept it or change your tastes like I did from neptunia to Yakuza.

So what is your take on the situation. Should critics respect their tastes or continue to be actual critics and not give a single inch to this audience.
Pete sounds like a punk ass *****. Kinda reminds me of this one segment here: <link=https://youtu.be/S0MUTrZT8a8?t=235>The 5 Stages of an Anime Fan
Dont let him hear that. Me and him have been having a grudge match for a while and he has about had it with me telling it for it what it is. It is really to reclaim my life from anime especially for something like Neptunia and whatever CH makes.


I know he wants people to respect each for their tastes but the industry has no room for people like him
 

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gyrobot said:
CoCage said:
gyrobot said:
https://moegamer.net/2019/09/17/lets-respect-each-others-tastes-or-this-game-isnt-for-you-and-thats-okay/

A couple of days ago Pat o'Reilly from Nintendo Life have given multiple titles. Latest on the lampoon list was Gun Gun Pixies. A port of a VITA game that hallmarked the waning years of Vita as nothimg more than a handheld for niche fanservice games instead of quality titles.

https://www.nintendolife.com/reviews/nintendo-switch/gun_gun_pixies

Pete Davison, being the one of the few to openly admit his love for Ecchi games have tried to get Pat to respond only to be blocked by Pat along with several of Pete's followers on Twitter who were also blocked.

As for my take on this...

I disagree with this statement as Pete Davison is defending low quality games as something to defend and expects critics to not say their tastes are awful. Critics exists for a reason beyond affirming your tastes as good, if your tastes in gaming is shit. Then either accept it or change your tastes like I did from neptunia to Yakuza.

So what is your take on the situation. Should critics respect their tastes or continue to be actual critics and not give a single inch to this audience.
Pete sounds like a punk ass *****. Kinda reminds me of this one segment here: <link=https://youtu.be/S0MUTrZT8a8?t=235>The 5 Stages of an Anime Fan
Dont let him hear that. Me and him have been having a grudge match for a while and he has about had it with me telling it for it what it is. It is really to reclaim my life from anime especially for something like Neptunia and whatever CH makes.


I know he wants people to respect each for their tastes but the industry has no room for people like him
I won't go out of my way to show the guy this video, but if he finds it on his own. So, what? The video is meant mostly as a joke, but there are truths in the jokes. Pete's just another asshole who can't take criticism. There are things I like I know others don't and I am find it. I always subscribe to the rule like or dislike whatever, but don't be an assholes to others from liking/disliking/not caring.
 

gyrobot_v1legacy

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CoCage said:
gyrobot said:
CoCage said:
gyrobot said:
https://moegamer.net/2019/09/17/lets-respect-each-others-tastes-or-this-game-isnt-for-you-and-thats-okay/

A couple of days ago Pat o'Reilly from Nintendo Life have given multiple titles. Latest on the lampoon list was Gun Gun Pixies. A port of a VITA game that hallmarked the waning years of Vita as nothimg more than a handheld for niche fanservice games instead of quality titles.

https://www.nintendolife.com/reviews/nintendo-switch/gun_gun_pixies

Pete Davison, being the one of the few to openly admit his love for Ecchi games have tried to get Pat to respond only to be blocked by Pat along with several of Pete's followers on Twitter who were also blocked.

As for my take on this...

I disagree with this statement as Pete Davison is defending low quality games as something to defend and expects critics to not say their tastes are awful. Critics exists for a reason beyond affirming your tastes as good, if your tastes in gaming is shit. Then either accept it or change your tastes like I did from neptunia to Yakuza.

So what is your take on the situation. Should critics respect their tastes or continue to be actual critics and not give a single inch to this audience.
Pete sounds like a punk ass *****. Kinda reminds me of this one segment here: <link=https://youtu.be/S0MUTrZT8a8?t=235>The 5 Stages of an Anime Fan
Dont let him hear that. Me and him have been having a grudge match for a while and he has about had it with me telling it for it what it is. It is really to reclaim my life from anime especially for something like Neptunia and whatever CH makes.


I know he wants people to respect each for their tastes but the industry has no room for people like him
I won't go out of my way to show the guy this video, but if he finds it on his own. So, what? The video is meant mostly as a joke, but there are truths in the jokes. Pete's just another asshole who can't take criticism. There are things I like I know others don't and I am find it. I always subscribe to the rule like or dislike whatever, but don't be an assholes to others from liking/disliking/not caring.
I agree. He tried to act like he didnt cared at all about the review. But the fact that it was easy to find the review on metacritic shows that he cared enough.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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So this is not about respecting people's tastes or not but the tc's personal vendetta with some guy who doesn't even post here...?


O....k
 

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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You know what really gets me about the thread title is that its structured exactly like the titles for the Rebuild of Evangelion movies.
 

CaitSeith

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The basics of respecting each other's tastes: "One man's garbage is another man's treasure"
 

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Folks, I like trash games as much as the next person, but c'mon. A niche fanservice game where you cleanse the sins of scantily clad girls through the power of BDSM is going to get niche fanservice trash scores. Stuff like Gun Gun Pixies and Gal Gun are softcore fanservice (not) porn. Which is fine (I guess), but it's never going to be taken "seriously".

Like, the fact that Gun Gun Pixies has the rare and much appreciated conceit of every woman being over 18 is mildly concerning for the rest of the genre.

EDIT: GODSDAMNED BAIT AND SWITCH! After the first gal it's the normal 15, 17, 17, 17 of every other pervy otaku game out there.
 

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altnameJag said:
Folks, I like trash games as much as the next person, but c'mon. A niche fanservice game where you cleanse the sins of scantily clad girls through the power of BDSM is going to get niche fanservice trash scores. Stuff like Gun Gun Pixies and Gal Gun are softcore fanservice (not) porn. Which is fine (I guess), but it's never going to be taken "seriously".

Like, the fact that Gun Gun Pixies has the rare and much appreciated conceit of every woman being over 18 is mildly concerning for the rest of the genre.
I don't think it's being taken seriously that has people worked up but that it feels like someone trying to stir things up for no real reason. It's not something that's going to ever go away and it's not hurting anyone so what is the point of bringing it up?
 

Avnger

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Specter Von Baren said:
altnameJag said:
Folks, I like trash games as much as the next person, but c'mon. A niche fanservice game where you cleanse the sins of scantily clad girls through the power of BDSM is going to get niche fanservice trash scores. Stuff like Gun Gun Pixies and Gal Gun are softcore fanservice (not) porn. Which is fine (I guess), but it's never going to be taken "seriously".

Like, the fact that Gun Gun Pixies has the rare and much appreciated conceit of every woman being over 18 is mildly concerning for the rest of the genre.
I don't think it's being taken seriously that has people worked up but that it feels like someone trying to stir things up for no real reason. It's not something that's going to ever go away and it's not hurting anyone so what is the point of bringing it up?
How dare a video game reviewer on a website for video game reviews review a video game?
 

CaitSeith

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Avnger said:
Specter Von Baren said:
altnameJag said:
Folks, I like trash games as much as the next person, but c'mon. A niche fanservice game where you cleanse the sins of scantily clad girls through the power of BDSM is going to get niche fanservice trash scores. Stuff like Gun Gun Pixies and Gal Gun are softcore fanservice (not) porn. Which is fine (I guess), but it's never going to be taken "seriously".

Like, the fact that Gun Gun Pixies has the rare and much appreciated conceit of every woman being over 18 is mildly concerning for the rest of the genre.
I don't think it's being taken seriously that has people worked up but that it feels like someone trying to stir things up for no real reason. It's not something that's going to ever go away and it's not hurting anyone so what is the point of bringing it up?
How dare a video game reviewer on a website for video game reviews review a video game?
But, don't you see? Making fun of a bad game and its audience in a review is stirring shit for no good reason. He shouldn't review games he knows he won't like. Why can't they be more professionals? Just look a Yahtzee! He never makes fun of gam... uh... I mean, he never mocks the audienc... err... look! He never ever reviews a game he knows he won't lik...

What I mean to say is, trust me, reviewers suck! /s
 

gyrobot_v1legacy

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CaitSeith said:
Avnger said:
Specter Von Baren said:
altnameJag said:
Folks, I like trash games as much as the next person, but c'mon. A niche fanservice game where you cleanse the sins of scantily clad girls through the power of BDSM is going to get niche fanservice trash scores. Stuff like Gun Gun Pixies and Gal Gun are softcore fanservice (not) porn. Which is fine (I guess), but it's never going to be taken "seriously".

Like, the fact that Gun Gun Pixies has the rare and much appreciated conceit of every woman being over 18 is mildly concerning for the rest of the genre.
I don't think it's being taken seriously that has people worked up but that it feels like someone trying to stir things up for no real reason. It's not something that's going to ever go away and it's not hurting anyone so what is the point of bringing it up?
How dare a video game reviewer on a website for video game reviews review a video game?
But, don't you see? Making fun of a bad game and its audience in a review is stirring shit for no good reason. He shouldn't review games he knows he won't like. Why can't they be more professionals? Just look a Yahtzee! He never makes fun of gam... uh... I mean, he never mocks the audienc... err... look! He never ever reviews a game he knows he won't lik...

What I mean to say is, trust me, reviewers suck! /s
Yahtzee is a cynic who dislikes everything. Meanwhile whomever is still covering such games is dunking on fanservice titles and their overly sensitive fanbase
 

CaitSeith

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gyrobot said:
CaitSeith said:
But, don't you see? Making fun of a bad game and its audience in a review is stirring shit for no good reason. He shouldn't review games he knows he won't like. Why can't they be more professionals? Just look a Yahtzee! He never makes fun of gam... uh... I mean, he never mocks the audienc... err... look! He never ever reviews a game he knows he won't lik...

What I mean to say is, trust me, reviewers suck! /s
Yahtzee is a cynic who dislikes everything.
And?
gyrobot said:
Meanwhile whomever is still covering such games is dunking on fanservice titles and their overly sensitive fanbase
So?
 

CaitSeith

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In a related topic, curiosity got the better of this woman, and she ended up as a new fan of the game.

[tweet t="https://twitter.com/GailSimone/status/1184859030268731393"]

Read the thread, and join me for a trip through the cognitive dissonance caused by playing an ecchi game for the very first time and loving it...
 

CritialGaming

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CaitSeith said:
Amazing. It's almost like if you give a game a chance rather than judging it on face value, you might find something actually enjoyable behind it all.

I'm still surprised that people don't get that sometimes people like things because they are good. And even if you don't like a thing, doesn't mean somebody else can enjoy and like it for what it is.

For example, some people like Brussels Sprouts.
 

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CritialGaming said:
Amazing. It's almost like if you give a game a chance rather than judging it on face value, you might find something actually enjoyable behind it all.
Well, sure, but... the game is being very up-front about its sales pitch, isn't it? It's being quite explicit that what it primarily has to offer is anime tits. That's the sales pitch.
 

CritialGaming

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Silvanus said:
CritialGaming said:
Amazing. It's almost like if you give a game a chance rather than judging it on face value, you might find something actually enjoyable behind it all.
Well, sure, but... the game is being very up-front about its sales pitch, isn't it? It's being quite explicit that what it primarily has to offer is anime tits. That's the sales pitch.
Sure it has a certain theme running through it. And like you said, it's up front about it. So it's not like you could buy the game and be surprised that it's heavy on the T&A. It's like buying a 3 million scovile hot sauce and then being surprised when the shit is hot. The damn label told you what it was, why you surprised?
 

Trunkage

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CaitSeith said:
In a related topic, curiosity got the better of this guy, and he ended up as a new fan of the game.

[tweet t="https://twitter.com/GailSimone/status/1184859030268731393"]

Read the thread, and join me for a trip through the cognitive dissonance caused by playing an ecchi game for the very first time and loving it...
Wait, when did this famous comic book writer change sex?
 

CaitSeith

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CritialGaming said:
Silvanus said:
CritialGaming said:
Amazing. It's almost like if you give a game a chance rather than judging it on face value, you might find something actually enjoyable behind it all.
Well, sure, but... the game is being very up-front about its sales pitch, isn't it? It's being quite explicit that what it primarily has to offer is anime tits. That's the sales pitch.
Sure it has a certain theme running through it. And like you said, it's up front about it. So it's not like you could buy the game and be surprised that it's heavy on the T&A. It's like buying a 3 million scovile hot sauce and then being surprised when the shit is hot. The damn label told you what it was, why you surprised?
I mean. There is a spectrum, true, but it seems the cover doesn't reflect well where it is (otherwise probably it wouldn't be at Gamestop among the less lewd anime Switch games).
 

CaitSeith

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trunkage said:
CaitSeith said:
In a related topic, curiosity got the better of this guy, and he ended up as a new fan of the game.

[tweet t="https://twitter.com/GailSimone/status/1184859030268731393"]

Read the thread, and join me for a trip through the cognitive dissonance caused by playing an ecchi game for the very first time and loving it...
Wait, when did this famous comic book writer change sex?
OK. Woman. Sorry. I'm not familiarized with the names of famous comic book writers.
 

CritialGaming

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CaitSeith said:
I mean. There is a spectrum, true, but it seems the cover doesn't reflect well where it is (otherwise probably it wouldn't be at Gamestop among the less lewd anime Switch games).
I dont understand what you mean by this? Are you implying that the Mature anime titty game shouldn't be sold at Gamestop where all the other mature games are sold? Are anime tits more mature than Red Dead Redemption, GTA, or Mortal Kombat? What are you saying?
 

CaitSeith

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CritialGaming said:
CaitSeith said:
I mean. There is a spectrum, true, but it seems the cover doesn't reflect well where it is (otherwise probably it wouldn't be at Gamestop among the less lewd anime Switch games).
I dont understand what you mean by this? Are you implying that the Mature anime titty game shouldn't be sold at Gamestop where all the other mature games are sold? Are anime tits more mature than Red Dead Redemption, GTA, or Mortal Kombat? What are you saying?
Don't blame me for American society being so prude that graphic violence is mainstream and lewd anime tits are niche.
 

Avnger

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CritialGaming said:
CaitSeith said:
I mean. There is a spectrum, true, but it seems the cover doesn't reflect well where it is (otherwise probably it wouldn't be at Gamestop among the less lewd anime Switch games).
I dont understand what you mean by this? Are you implying that the Mature anime titty game shouldn't be sold at Gamestop where all the other mature games are sold? Are anime tits more mature than Red Dead Redemption, GTA, or Mortal Kombat? What are you saying?
[ol]
[li] The cultural taboo around hyper-sexualized content in the West (and US in particular) is well-known. In fact, it's so well-known that I have a hard time seeing your post as anything other than being offended for the sake of being offended.
[/li]
[li] RDR, GTA, and Mortal Kombat have 3 important qualities that push them beyond "mature anime titty game #675" in terms of general acceptance:
[ul]
[li] They're games first and "violence simulators" (or whatever "double-standard" you're trying to be outraged about in your post) second while matg #675 is, generally, a softcore porn simulator first and a game second.
[/li]
[li]They have massive advertising campaigns and/or pre-baked-in cultural acceptance from previous iterations.
[/li]
[li]They're high-quality productions published and/or developed by brand-name companies.
[/li][/ul][/li][/ol]
 
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Critics don't have to respect audiences, and audiences don't have to respect critics. Everything works out in the end.

Everyone has shit taste. If you don't have shit taste, you're forming your opinions off of the general consensus of other people, which is even worse than having shit taste.
 

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CritialGaming said:
Sure it has a certain theme running through it. And like you said, it's up front about it. So it's not like you could buy the game and be surprised that it's heavy on the T&A. It's like buying a 3 million scovile hot sauce and then being surprised when the shit is hot. The damn label told you what it was, why you surprised?
Who's surprised? I'm saying its puerile, not that its surprising.
 

CritialGaming

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Avnger said:
CritialGaming said:
CaitSeith said:
I mean. There is a spectrum, true, but it seems the cover doesn't reflect well where it is (otherwise probably it wouldn't be at Gamestop among the less lewd anime Switch games).
I dont understand what you mean by this? Are you implying that the Mature anime titty game shouldn't be sold at Gamestop where all the other mature games are sold? Are anime tits more mature than Red Dead Redemption, GTA, or Mortal Kombat? What are you saying?
[ol]
[li] The cultural taboo around hyper-sexualized content in the West (and US in particular) is well-known. In fact, it's so well-known that I have a hard time seeing your post as anything other than being offended for the sake of being offended.
[/li]
[li] RDR, GTA, and Mortal Kombat have 3 important qualities that push them beyond "mature anime titty game #675" in terms of general acceptance:
[ul]
[li] They're games first and "violence simulators" (or whatever "double-standard" you're trying to be outraged about in your post) second while matg #675 is, generally, a softcore porn simulator first and a game second.
[/li]
[li]They have massive advertising campaigns and/or pre-baked-in cultural acceptance from previous iterations.
[/li]
[li]They're high-quality productions published and/or developed by brand-name companies.
[/li][/ul][/li][/ol]
1. I'm not offended, I just didn't understand the meaning to the original statement.

2. This makes no sense. Graphic violence is okay because the games are good? This all started because the person on twitter bought what they assumed would be a shallow titty anime game and ended up having a lot of fun with it, thus making it a good game. Any game that you have fun with is by default a good game (at least to you) right? Sure you might like a faulty game, but that doesn't mean the game is bad. For example if you have fun playing Fallout 76 or Anthem, they are good games to you.

You can say games like GTA, RDR, etc are games first but the aren't marketed that way. Mortal Kombat is marketed around the fatality system, not the greatness of the fighting engine. So to say they are advertises as games first and violence second is simply not true.

The point I'm making is that just cause a game is based around anime tits, or graphic violence, or felonious activity, doesn't mean it can't be a wonderfully valid gaming experience. As Gail found out after giving the anime boob game a chance. That's all I'm saying.

Neither kind of game is more valid than the other.
 

gyrobot_v1legacy

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CritialGaming said:
CaitSeith said:
Amazing. It's almost like if you give a game a chance rather than judging it on face value, you might find something actually enjoyable behind it all.

I'm still surprised that people don't get that sometimes people like things because they are good. And even if you don't like a thing, doesn't mean somebody else can enjoy and like it for what it is.

For example, some people like Brussels Sprouts.
Would the opinion change if the industry had a drought of good games and we had was matgs being localized?

Because my memories of the bad old days is very much a fresh memory that no one with taste should relive
 

McElroy

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Seems to me she: 1) played it without being critical of it at every possible turn and 2) likes the framing of some of the story.

It's like you can enjoy a run through of a David Cage game if you just don't think about it much. People can enjoy ridiculous stuff even if that stuff is crap. I'll admit it's a bit annoying when enjoying things get to arguments -- I have a tendency to do that too -- there really are two kinds of people in that regard. It can also be liberating when you realize you don't have to find good arguments for why something bad is "actually good because I enjoy it" and instead just enjoy it while it's bad.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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I like how this topic became "people discover this thing called 'fun' and they like it".


CritialGaming said:
Avnger said:
CritialGaming said:
CaitSeith said:
I mean. There is a spectrum, true, but it seems the cover doesn't reflect well where it is (otherwise probably it wouldn't be at Gamestop among the less lewd anime Switch games).
I dont understand what you mean by this? Are you implying that the Mature anime titty game shouldn't be sold at Gamestop where all the other mature games are sold? Are anime tits more mature than Red Dead Redemption, GTA, or Mortal Kombat? What are you saying?
[ol]
[li] The cultural taboo around hyper-sexualized content in the West (and US in particular) is well-known. In fact, it's so well-known that I have a hard time seeing your post as anything other than being offended for the sake of being offended.
[/li]
[li] RDR, GTA, and Mortal Kombat have 3 important qualities that push them beyond "mature anime titty game #675" in terms of general acceptance:
[ul]
[li] They're games first and "violence simulators" (or whatever "double-standard" you're trying to be outraged about in your post) second while matg #675 is, generally, a softcore porn simulator first and a game second.
[/li]
[li]They have massive advertising campaigns and/or pre-baked-in cultural acceptance from previous iterations.
[/li]
[li]They're high-quality productions published and/or developed by brand-name companies.
[/li][/ul][/li][/ol]
1. I'm not offended, I just didn't understand the meaning to the original statement.

2. This makes no sense. Graphic violence is okay because the games are good? This all started because the person on twitter bought what they assumed would be a shallow titty anime game and ended up having a lot of fun with it, thus making it a good game. Any game that you have fun with is by default a good game (at least to you) right? Sure you might like a faulty game, but that doesn't mean the game is bad. For example if you have fun playing Fallout 76 or Anthem, they are good games to you.

You can say games like GTA, RDR, etc are games first but the aren't marketed that way. Mortal Kombat is marketed around the fatality system, not the greatness of the fighting engine. So to say they are advertises as games first and violence second is simply not true.

The point I'm making is that just cause a game is based around anime tits, or graphic violence, or felonious activity, doesn't mean it can't be a wonderfully valid gaming experience. As Gail found out after giving the anime boob game a chance. That's all I'm saying.

Neither kind of game is more valid than the other.
The irony here is that when you do have someone have those elements, such as for example the hentai artist Zone working in Indivisible and putting his pornsona in the game as a merchant that sells you "odd smelling 'scrum'" (this is a real thing), you get people complaining about "brand name companies" including such people in their games and make comments along the lines of "can you not put your porn character from your porn in your not-porn videogame that's otherwise excellent".

Nobody can say that Indivisible is low quality and it's made by the Skullgirls people who are a loved brand and while the budget is not gonna be like that of something like MK it's still doing good overall.


Yet, people will still complain about those elements despite all those factors being met. And Indivisible isn't even all that suggestive, it just has a character from things that are as an easter egg. Imagine if it actually was. Something tells me people wouldn't be suddenly any more accepting of it. If anything, it being established and of high quality would work against it like how it did for Dragon's Crown for example.
 

CritialGaming

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Dreiko said:
I sometimes wonder if it just becomes nit picking at that point.

"Oh this game is amazing....if only it didn't have this terrible porno character/theme/whatever." Somebody finds everything about the game to be great, except the fanservice part. And while that's a valid opinion, it doesn't mean the game should be crucified because of it. And if someone wants to be that shallow about it, then okay, the only person they hurt is themselves by not letting them experience something that they could otherwise enjoy due to some misunderstood viewpoint.
 

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CritialGaming said:
Dreiko said:
I sometimes wonder if it just becomes nit picking at that point.

"Oh this game is amazing....if only it didn't have this terrible porno character/theme/whatever." Somebody finds everything about the game to be great, except the fanservice part. And while that's a valid opinion, it doesn't mean the game should be crucified because of it. And if someone wants to be that shallow about it, then okay, the only person they hurt is themselves by not letting them experience something that they could otherwise enjoy due to some misunderstood viewpoint.
Or they just don't like the thing maybe? Like, I'm getting tired of Zone-tan. Yes, yes, wink-wink, here's that porn character you saw a lot of 5 years ago, very clever. Kinda weird they show up to sell cum in a not-porn game.
but that's the extent of it. Can people complain about a thing anymore without it being shots fired in a culture war? Or hell, *like* a thing without it being some culture war shit? Gail Simone, after all, is one of those"SJWs who're ruining comics with their political correctness and pronouns"

She also thinks Gun Gun Pixies is hilarious sexy trash with some decent story elements.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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altnameJag said:
CritialGaming said:
Dreiko said:
I sometimes wonder if it just becomes nit picking at that point.

"Oh this game is amazing....if only it didn't have this terrible porno character/theme/whatever." Somebody finds everything about the game to be great, except the fanservice part. And while that's a valid opinion, it doesn't mean the game should be crucified because of it. And if someone wants to be that shallow about it, then okay, the only person they hurt is themselves by not letting them experience something that they could otherwise enjoy due to some misunderstood viewpoint.
Or they just don't like the thing maybe? Like, I'm getting tired of Zone-tan. Yes, yes, wink-wink, here's that porn character you saw a lot of 5 years ago, very clever. Kinda weird they show up to sell cum in a not-porn game.
but that's the extent of it. Can people complain about a thing anymore without it being shots fired in a culture war? Or hell, *like* a thing without it being some culture war shit? Gail Simone, after all, is one of those"SJWs who're ruining comics with their political correctness and pronouns"

She also thinks Gun Gun Pixies is hilarious sexy trash with some decent story elements.
I wish we could like these games without being insulted for doing so and having implications placed upon us that question our maturity and so on. (some even make more egregious charges such as for example Zone being a CP artist or some such nonsense because he drew cartoon teenagers lol)

Just to make it clear, it wasn't the case that everything was going smoothly with our bouncing mammaries and colorful undergarments fluttering around making everyone happy and suddenly someone started being negative to someone else for being an SJW out of the ether when both persons were similarly having fun with their stripped pantyshots.

No, what happened was you have a history of people trying to smear other people for what they like, which is now finally getting the deserved reaction in being decried as prudish. Gail Simone liking this basically shows everyone ELSE for being an SJW and having no ground to stand on, nobody's mad at her. We're just acknowledging that if someone who isn't already an SJW were to make a post praising the story of GGP about its themes regarding bulimia, they'd be waved of as a creep trying desperately to justify their porn.

How can that not breed a climate of antagonism?


And sure, you can not like this thing. I don't like sports and racing games. Do you know what I don't do? I don't go shit on sports game fans or talk about how dull I find them on twitter and I don't go and imply some deficiency in those who do like sports games. I just do my own thing and let the sports games and those who like them be in peace. Why the need to bemoan something that's just not your thing? Why can't you just go find something you do like and play that?

Oh and if it's an element I dislike in a game I love, such as for example Blitzball in FFX (which is a pretty basic magical sports game) do you know what happens? I end up linking it at least some due to it being in an otherwise amazing thing and having that good thing's themes rub off on it. If someone is otherwise in love with Indivisible but having a random easter egg in the game somehow completely ruins that, I have to call BS on how much they liked the game if their love could be shaken so easily.
 

Silvanus

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Dreiko said:
No, what happened was you have a history of people trying to smear other people for what they like, which is now finally getting the deserved reaction in being decried as prudish. Gail Simone liking this basically shows everyone ELSE for being an SJW and having no ground to stand on, nobody's mad at her. We're just acknowledging that if someone who isn't already an SJW were to make a post praising the story of GGP about its themes regarding bulimia, they'd be waved of as a creep trying desperately to justify their porn.

How can that not breed a climate of antagonism?
Well, in this thread for instance, there's a lot more anger aimed towards the phantom critics than there is actual criticism of the game itself.

Also, I imagine the climate of antagonism has been exacerbated by politically-tinged insults like "SJW".
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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Silvanus said:
Dreiko said:
No, what happened was you have a history of people trying to smear other people for what they like, which is now finally getting the deserved reaction in being decried as prudish. Gail Simone liking this basically shows everyone ELSE for being an SJW and having no ground to stand on, nobody's mad at her. We're just acknowledging that if someone who isn't already an SJW were to make a post praising the story of GGP about its themes regarding bulimia, they'd be waved of as a creep trying desperately to justify their porn.

How can that not breed a climate of antagonism?
Well, in this thread for instance, there's a lot more anger aimed towards the phantom critics than there is actual criticism of the game itself.

Also, I imagine the climate of antagonism has been exacerbated by politically-tinged insults like "SJW".

Is it a phantom when the TC links to the actual critics? How can it not be a phantom if an actual cited thing (and other such examples like my mention of Indivisible and Dragon's Crown) doesn't suffice to not make it one?


SJW isn't politically tinged when uttered by people also on the left politically, it's just a personality trait descriptor in that context. Nowadays, the prudes aren't the traditional conservatives but rather the hyper-left people who are offended by sexual things because of their gendered traits and power dynamics and so on (as opposed to the BS reasons the Christians would come up with to control the lives of strangers) so it may seem political to call prudes SJWs but it's actually not, it just happens to seem that way because it's mainly one side that's doing what the religious right was doing in the 90s and if you're consistently against that side it unavoidable will come off as being political when it's actually just pro-game. It wasn't political in the 90s when we told the right to get off our violence and it's not now when we tell the SJWs to leave the anime tiddies alone.


You know how everyone jumped to point at Japan having almost no shooting deaths when some politicians tried the 90s playbook of blaming videogames for shootings in the wake of all these recent mass shootings? That's not a political act (the defense of videogames, blaming them sure is haha), that's just a factual correction that any honest individual will admit is true. We somehow are able to see telling the right that they're wrong in that sense as a simply apolitical response that is just concerned with representing reality right. The same should be possible with the unfounded SJW nonsense.
 

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Dreiko said:
Is it a phantom when the TC links to the actual critics? How can it not be a phantom if an actual cited thing (and other such examples like my mention of Indivisible and Dragon's Crown) doesn't suffice to not make it one?
Hardly a "smear" for goodness' sake. It's a relatively mild critical review-- outclassed in terms of harshness by your own comments alone.

SJW isn't politically tinged when uttered by people also on the left politically, it's just a personality trait descriptor in that context. Nowadays, the prudes aren't the traditional conservatives but rather the hyper-left people who are offended by sexual things because of their gendered traits and power dynamics and so on (as opposed to the BS reasons the Christians would come up with to control the lives of strangers) so it may seem political to call prudes SJWs but it's actually not, it just happens to seem that way because it's mainly one side that's doing what the religious right was doing in the 90s and if you're consistently against that side it unavoidable will come off as being political when it's actually just pro-game. It wasn't political in the 90s when we told the right to get off our violence and it's not now when we tell the SJWs to leave the anime tiddies alone.
Ignoring for a moment the fact that you said it's not at all political, and then in the next sentence contextualized it in reference to the "hyper-left"...

This doesn't really account for the biggest chunk of uses: you're an "SJW" if you want gay characters in games, or female protags; you're an "SJW" if you like the ones already there. I've seen people deriding others for going against the artist's vision when games are criticised as being too homogeneous or stereotyping... and then I've seen game developers themselves termed "SJWs" when they include gay characters in their own damn games.

No, the vast majority of times I've seen it hurled about, it's nothing to do with prudishness whatsoever; it's another insult in the perceived "culture war", aimed at people who're apparently being too loud about what they like & don't like. Bollocks.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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Silvanus said:
Dreiko said:
Is it a phantom when the TC links to the actual critics? How can it not be a phantom if an actual cited thing (and other such examples like my mention of Indivisible and Dragon's Crown) doesn't suffice to not make it one?
Hardly a "smear" for goodness' sake. It's a relatively mild critical review-- outclassed in terms of harshness by your own comments alone.

SJW isn't politically tinged when uttered by people also on the left politically, it's just a personality trait descriptor in that context. Nowadays, the prudes aren't the traditional conservatives but rather the hyper-left people who are offended by sexual things because of their gendered traits and power dynamics and so on (as opposed to the BS reasons the Christians would come up with to control the lives of strangers) so it may seem political to call prudes SJWs but it's actually not, it just happens to seem that way because it's mainly one side that's doing what the religious right was doing in the 90s and if you're consistently against that side it unavoidable will come off as being political when it's actually just pro-game. It wasn't political in the 90s when we told the right to get off our violence and it's not now when we tell the SJWs to leave the anime tiddies alone.
Ignoring for a moment the fact that you said it's not at all political, and then in the next sentence contextualized it in reference to the "hyper-left"...

This doesn't really account for the biggest chunk of uses: you're an "SJW" if you want gay characters in games, or female protags; you're an "SJW" if you like the ones already there. I've seen people deriding others for going against the artist's vision when games are criticised as being too homogeneous or stereotyping... and then I've seen game developers themselves termed "SJWs" when they include gay characters in their own damn games.

No, the vast majority of times I've seen it hurled about, it's nothing to do with prudishness whatsoever; it's another insult in the perceived "culture war", aimed at people who're apparently being too loud about what they like & don't like. Bollocks.

You're not an SJW for liking a gay character, you're only an SJW for liking a gay character because they're gay. Similarly, you're not one if you want good characters and are open to them being gay as long as they primarily are just good characters and are made not to enhance diversity or inclusion but just because they fit the artistic vision the creators had for their game.


People don't dislike any and all gay characters being included, they dislike the ones who are included as a political act or to virtue signal or to seem open minded, because when these chars are added those issues take center stage and the actually important aspects of coherence in the universe and them being well-written and so on take a back seat, which is anti game because it treats making a good game as less important than advancing a social cause. It treats games as tools for propaganda, as means to a different end, not as end in and of themselves.


I'll give you a good example. There's this mage dude in Dragon Age Inquisition. You meet him during a really cool part of the game and he's witty and silly and all in all a cool dude. Eventually it turns out he's also gay. We're cool up to that part, very well-done character, promising. Lets see what epic thing he gets around to in his backstory/sidequest part...gay conversion therapy...really? You have this cool character and this epic universe with dragons and demons and so on...and the best thing you could come up with to give this character as a backstory is...magical gay conversion therapy and reconciling with his conservative dad? Could this be any more trite and mundane? Not to mention disappointing. Did anyone actually think such a storyline is in any way compelling in the context of high fantasy? Or was it just something appealing to write to seem progressive and cool with the gay folks, damn the character and his promise?

Being against gay characters being included just for being gay is for the sake of the gay characters who are actually just good characters and happen to be gay too. They benefit from such a stance just as much.
 

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Dreiko said:
You're not an SJW for liking a gay character, you're only an SJW for liking a gay character because they're gay. Similarly, you're not one if you want good characters and are open to them being gay as long as they primarily are just good characters and are made not to enhance diversity or inclusion but just because they fit the artistic vision the creators had for their game.

People don't dislike any and all gay characters being included, they dislike the ones who are included as a political act or to virtue signal or to seem open minded, because when these chars are added those issues take center stage and the actually important aspects of coherence in the universe and them being well-written and so on take a back seat, which is anti game because it treats making a good game as less important than advancing a social cause. It treats games as tools for propaganda, as means to a different end, not as end in and of themselves.
When you say "those issues take centre stage", am I to understand that you don't want games to approach any LGBT themes then?Gay characters are alright... if they're just quiet about being gay and it never comes up?

The fact is it doesn't seem to matter. The "SJW" line comes flying out regardless of how the character is presented. If they discuss gay stuff, then people moan because they're "shoving it down our throats", "virtue signalling", etc etc. If the character doesn't discuss any gay stuff, and it just seems incidental, then people moan because "there's no reason for them to be gay", "why make them gay", "it's tokenism".

Nope, honestly, I've never-- not once-- seen a gay character who hasn't been received with the same anti-"SJW" drivel, and I'm inclined to believe the people who tend to throw that term around just don't want certain kinds of people in their games at all.

Dreiko said:
I'll give you a good example. There's this mage dude in Dragon Age Inquisition. You meet him during a really cool part of the game and he's witty and silly and all in all a cool dude. Eventually it turns out he's also gay. We're cool up to that part, very well-done character, promising. Lets see what epic thing he gets around to in his backstory/sidequest part...gay conversion therapy...really? You have this cool character and this epic universe with dragons and demons and so on...and the best thing you could come up with to give this character as a backstory is...magical gay conversion therapy and reconciling with his conservative dad? Could this be any more trite and mundane? Not to mention disappointing. Did anyone actually think such a storyline is in any way compelling in the context of high fantasy? Or was it just something appealing to write to seem progressive and cool with the gay folks, damn the character and his promise?
You find conversion therapy as a theme in a game to be "trite and mundane"? Even though it's extremely rarely approached in games, if ever?

Why does that particular quest need to be exclusively linked to high fantasy? Hundreds of fantasy RPG quests aren't fantasy-specific. You get fantasy quests about heirlooms, about lost parents, about finding treasure, about blackmail, about bandits, about fucking anything. But suddenly, if it has a gay theme in it-- something which actually hits pretty fucking close to home for a lot of gay people-- then it's "trite" and "not in context". No, fuck that, you're applying a nonsensical standard.

Dreiko said:
Being against gay characters being included just for being gay is for the sake of the gay characters who are actually just good characters and happen to be gay too. They benefit from such a stance just as much.
I'm sure you approach straight characters in the same way. Why include them just for being straight, eh? I'll remember that next time a straight game character won't STFU about their wife/ GF, since romance (well, straight romance) seems to be almost a requisite in most modern media.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Dreiko said:
No, what happened was you have a history of people trying to smear other people for what they like, which is now finally getting the deserved reaction in being decried as prudish. Gail Simone liking this basically shows everyone ELSE for being an SJW and having no ground to stand on, nobody's mad at her. We're just acknowledging that if someone who isn't already an SJW were to make a post praising the story of GGP about its themes regarding bulimia, they'd be waved of as a creep trying desperately to justify their porn.

How can that not breed a climate of antagonism?
1) The gal with the eating problem is 20, proving you can actually do this sort of thing without perving on high school kids. (Incidentally, every other character you perv on is either 15 or 17, which fuck me, I guess. I'd heard otherwise until I bought it and opened the art book. Fucking hell)
2) from the SJWs I follow, they've got no problems being horny on main if it doesn't involve children

Dreiko said:
If someone is otherwise in love with Indivisible but having a random easter egg in the game somehow completely ruins that, I have to call BS on how much they liked the game if their love could be shaken so easily.
Not a thing that happened. Just people complaining about that specific part. Because you don't have to ignore a thing's flaws in order to love it.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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Silvanus said:
When you say "those issues take centre stage", am I to understand that you don't want games to approach any LGBT themes then?Gay characters are alright... if they're just quiet about being gay and it never comes up?

The fact is it doesn't seem to matter. The "SJW" line comes flying out regardless of how the character is presented. If they discuss gay stuff, then people moan because they're "shoving it down our throats", "virtue signalling", etc etc. If the character doesn't discuss any gay stuff, and it just seems incidental, then people moan because "there's no reason for them to be gay", "why make them gay", "it's tokenism".

Nope, honestly, I've never-- not once-- seen a gay character who hasn't been received with the same anti-"SJW" drivel, and I'm inclined to believe the people who tend to throw that term around just don't want certain kinds of people in their games at all.
Right so, whether it befits such themes to take center stage will ultimately depend on the type of game you have and the sort of story. In persona 2 innocent sin you have a gay party member that's pretty clearly into the protagonist, and it fits just fine. In FFXIII you have Fang and Vanille and Fang was initially made to be a dude but they ended up making them both girls and absolutely nobody complained about them being as close as they were (Fang in fact is my fav char in the whole game). But when you have certain themes and terminology that really doesn't belong in the world narrative just appear it feels trite and artificial. Ultimately it's about not being lazy and trying to go for easy virtue points.

The "why make them gay" thing is idiotic btw, it's the same answer that you get to "why make this magician a 12 year old girl", you do that cause the artist wanted to. I never supported that. You're free to think a choice is bad but you don't get to question it, if you don't like it make your own game.




You find conversion therapy as a theme in a game to be "trite and mundane"? Even though it's extremely rarely approached in games, if ever?

Why does that particular quest need to be exclusively linked to high fantasy? Hundreds of fantasy RPG quests aren't fantasy-specific. You get fantasy quests about heirlooms, about lost parents, about finding treasure, about blackmail, about bandits, about fucking anything. But suddenly, if it has a gay theme in it-- something which actually hits pretty fucking close to home for a lot of gay people-- then it's "trite" and "not in context". No, fuck that, you're applying a nonsensical standard.
Ok so I need to clarify, this isn't any old basic sidequest in an rpg. This is a special set of important sidequests that act as the supporting cast's main story in a sense, how you resolve them has huge impact, may cause you to enter romance with the party member or become enemies and have them leave the party or have them gain new jobs. There's this one dude who you choose between letting all his old comrades die and tie him back to his homeland's religious war or not for example. They're the most important sort of sidequest in the game basically. They are cut from a different cloth than the typical "go kill 10 wolves and bring me their pelts" sort.


And the reason gay conversion therapy is trite is that it doesn't actually fit in the world. The DA world is pretty open and accepting to gay people. The idea that you'd even try to magically un-gay someone through a ritual makes absolutely no sense in the world either. This was all conjured up to give the people in the real world something to feel virtuous about playing. This isn't the same as you being able to kill the KKK in red dead 2, the KKK being in that game actually fits and makes sense and Arthur would take them out indeed.

altnameJag said:
1) The gal with the eating problem is 20, proving you can actually do this sort of thing without perving on high school kids. (Incidentally, every other character you perv on is either 15 or 17, which fuck me, I guess. I'd heard otherwise until I bought it and opened the art book. Fucking hell)
2) from the SJWs I follow, they've got no problems being horny on main if it doesn't involve children
I...don't think this proves what you think it does.

See, if you need to read the artbook to ascertain someone being not of age and you can't do that through seeing the character, then they all quack like ducks either way and complaining about their fictional age which has no impact is indeed virtue signaling.

What you probably heard was that this took place in an academy and not in a highschool, what you didn't realize probably is that in Japan there can be all girl academies that go from grade school all the way into college, all in one campus, and that you can have people from all such age groups living there.

Calling it an "academy" is basically them bypassing the stringent and arbitrarily dumb standards some localities set against depicting particularly schoolgirls in lewd situations. They literally have to do nothing beyond calling it something different and going on with their day lol.

And no 15-17 year olds are not children. Depending on where you happen to be born at it's even in the age of consent (15 was where I was born for example) and this is about real people. Anime/game characters are not real people or children even if they are drawn to resemble them. They don't have ages of consent outside of the fictional ones in whatever world they exist in.



Not a thing that happened. Just people complaining about that specific part. Because you don't have to ignore a thing's flaws in order to love it.
Actually saw tweets about people not getting the game any more due to Zone-tan, so it did happen lol.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Dreiko said:
I...don't think this proves what you think it does.

See, if you need to read the artbook to ascertain someone being not of age and you can't do that through seeing the character, then they all quack like ducks either way and complaining about their fictional age which has no impact is indeed virtue signaling.
It's not that hard man: I got a rule that says no kids

Dreiko said:
What you probably heard was that this took place in an academy and not in a highschool, what you didn't realize probably is that in Japan there can be all girl academies that go from grade school all the way into college, all in one campus, and that you can have people from all such age groups living there.

Calling it an "academy" is basically them bypassing the stringent and arbitrarily dumb standards some localities set against depicting particularly schoolgirls in lewd situations. They literally have to do nothing beyond calling it something different and going on with their day lol.
I heard they were adults. And I don't think standards against sexualizing kids are dumb. And you're right: if that art book had the magic gal listed as 19, I *would* be going about my day, happy that the game I bought doesn't involve bringing a child to orgasm. But they couldn't even clear that low, low bar, and just had to include a character that couldn't consent by Japanese law.

It's disappointing and more than a little creepy.

Dreiko said:
And no 15-17 year olds are not children. Depending on where you happen to be born at it's even in the age of consent (15 was where I was born for example) and this is about real people. Anime/game characters are not real people or children even if they are drawn to resemble them. They don't have ages of consent outside of the fictional ones in whatever world they exist in.
Ah yes, the famously fictional world of Japan, where anybody younger than 18 is legally a child.
The age of consent is not the age of adulthood. Some provinces recognize that teens are going to have sex with each other and set consent at 16 or 17, other provinces ride that line all the way up to 18. Hell, you can't get married in Japan if you're less than 20 without parental approval.
 

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altnameJag said:
I heard they were adults. And I don't think standards against sexualizing kids are dumb. And you're right: if that art book had the magic gal listed as 19, I *would* be going about my day, happy that the game I bought doesn't involve bringing a child to orgasm. But they couldn't even clear that low, low bar, and just had to include a character that couldn't consent by Japanese law.

It's disappointing and more than a little creepy.
See, now you're advocating for a standard which doesn't care about what the character looks like, as long as they arbitrarily are written to be of age, but where there to be a character that looks young but is actually 4000 years old according to the artbook, you'd also complain about them looking young.

We can't have that. Either it's fine for people to look of age or it's fine for people to be of age in canon no matter what they look like.


Ah yes, the famously fictional world of Japan, where anybody younger than 18 is legally a child.
The age of consent is not the age of adulthood. Some provinces recognize that teens are going to have sex with each other and set consent at 16 or 17, other provinces ride that line all the way up to 18. Hell, you can't get married in Japan if you're less than 20 without parental approval.
Firstly, you may be confusing real Japan with whatever world that game takes place in which has miniature alien pixies with orgasm guns and assuming they share things with real world Japan. Secondly, consent laws don't really...apply in this context where you have magical orgasm guns to begin with. You have to break the fourth wall and insert yourself in the alien's tiny tiny shoes to even have that be slightly coherent. That's...not really how everyone enjoys these games. People aren't living vicariously through the alien pixies and self-inserting. People are just seeing this funny silly thing and they have simple fun with the antics of the cute and pervy pixies and that's kinda it.


Maybe your issue is being unable to disassociate yourself and whatever feelings spring forth when you play these games, which makes you feel icky, but you do have to know that not everyone else is actually like that. Some people can just...have fun cause it's fun, even if the object of the fun would be horrific in a real-world context. (cue in violence, killing people with swords, guns, scythes, that blood draining glove from Code Vein, the list goes on, people aren't monsters for enjoying these things, a fun game has just that; the ability to make enjoyable things that aren't necessarily purposed for enjoyment in the real world)
 

CritialGaming

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Since we are on this now about characters and sexuality in gaming.

Dreiko is correct, that side character is a dope dude and is really well written and fun for 90% of the game. The problem comings when doing his side mission and instead of helping him on some quest, you instead give him gay counseling.

The problem is that video game writers have no idea on how to portray alternate sexualities in games. People keep thinking that someone being gay/trans/etc is the character, and that's wrong! Sexuality is only a small tiny tiny tiny part of who that character should be within the context of the game.

I find the best gay characters in games are the games that let the player character be the gay one. Mass Effect 3 Shepard was great, because the player had a choice to make Shepard whatever they wanted, and the entire story and character didn't revolve around what hole Shepard wanted to play with. If you wanted a gay man Shepard then you could have your romantic gay couple scene, if you wanted Lez Shep, then you could have that too. But the most important part about it is that it didn't hover over the character like a cloud the rest of the game.

But when you have to set down with a character and either listen to then talk about how gay they are, or talk to that character about being gay (usually with your character going "Oh yeah I'm gay too" or "Man that's odd, but whatever you're still part of my team" Or other crap) then it becomes too much a focal point and the character might as well have a big neon fucking sign around their neck saying "GAY!"

A character (and a person) shouldn't spark their entire being on their sexual preference. Another example I liked was the Hunter from The Witcher 3. Geralt listens to his tale and you find out through his brief but well told backstory that he is gay and he got kicked out of his home for it. Geralt comforts him the best he can and then the mission continues. It's good because it's brief and subtle where it's easy to miss if you aren't paying that much attention to it. Then the hunter continues on the mission with Geralt because his sexuality doesn't matter, he is capable of the job you need him to do and who he loves doesn't effect his ability to do that job or help Geralt out. CD Project didn't have to make that character gay, that story could have been delivered any number of ways, but they chose to have him be a gay man to show that he is just as human and just as useful as anyone else in the game's world.

There is nothing wrong with the flamboyance either, if it serves the character. Slyvando from DQ11 is as flamboyantly gay as you can get, but his character is never hindered by it. He is capable, strong, determined, loyal, and all the other things you could want from an RPG teammate. His flamboyance is part of him as a character and it is never played off as a symbolic way to mock people who act like him in real life, but rather to embrace people like him because it doesn't define him. It doesn't hold him back and he doesn't resent himself for being who he is.

Gay or straight, good characters are good characters and shit characters are shit. Any character is bad when the writer only gives them one note to stand on, one characteristic, one purpose, one drive, one morality. And I've said it before and I'll say it again, your sexuality is such a small part of who you are as a person that it should NEVER be a driving force or dominant part of a character's motivation. The DA:I character fails this because instead of an interesting adventure sidequest it's a fireside chat.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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Oh yeah, Sylv is a great character. And his backstory with his dad ACTUALLY made sense and fit the world. (dad's a knight, he trained from a young age to also be a knight, saw a circus and fell in love with performing, abandoned knighthood and became a famous performer betraying his dad's expectations, the two haven't spoken for decades until you bring them together, see, this now is an interesting character)

Also, let us not forget DQ11 has you lead what is basically a gay pride parade while wearing what I can only describe as a peacock tutu and stockings, as you prance on. (and the Hero is straight since you do get married to one of the girls in the end, he's just easygoing like that lol)

And nobody complains about either thing. It was all in good fun coming from a non-preachy, positive place.
 

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Dreiko said:
See, now you're advocating for a standard which doesn't care about what the character looks like, as long as they arbitrarily are written to be of age, but where there to be a character that looks young but is actually 4000 years old according to the artbook, you'd also complain about them looking young.

We can't have that. Either it's fine for people to look of age or it's fine for people to be of age in canon no matter what they look like.
That's not actually the standard I'm advocating though. Like, 2 of my favorite characters in Granblue Fantasy are Cagliostro and Scathacha, who both fit the "900+ year old in a child's body" trope. The key difference is that they do not act like children. (They're also not terribly sexualized for various reasons. Mainly tact)
Petite women that aren't 15 and are actually adults exist. It would be nice to occasionally see them in media.

Dreiko said:
Firstly, you may be confusing real Japan with whatever world that game takes place in which has miniature alien pixies with orgasm guns and assuming they share things with real world Japan.
If they didn't, why call it Japan?
Dreiko said:
Secondly, consent laws don't really...apply in this context where you have magical orgasm guns to begin with. You have to break the fourth wall and insert yourself in the alien's tiny tiny shoes to even have that be slightly coherent. That's...not really how everyone enjoys these games. People aren't living vicariously through the alien pixies and self-inserting. People are just seeing this funny silly thing and they have simple fun with the antics of the cute and pervy pixies and that's kinda it.
Maybe your issue is being unable to disassociate yourself and whatever feelings spring forth when you play these games, which makes you feel icky,
Buddy, I'm already ignoring the aspect where our heroines are sexually stimulating strangers to orgasm without their consent, I'm fine with that bit. I'm damned tired of the country of Japan (or ecchi game proxy country) having six women of legal drinking age in it.(The kotaku article called it, and I quote, a dorm occupied "mostly by college-age female students". That was a lie) I exist in a fairly horny sphere of the internet that won't give games like this a change because they're just...not interested in children. Set this exact game up after a 3 year time-skip? Sales would double.
Dreiko said:
but you do have to know that not everyone else is actually like that. Some people can just...have fun cause it's fun, even if the object of the fun would be horrific in a real-world context. (cue in violence, killing people with swords, guns, scythes, that blood draining glove from Code Vein, the list goes on, people aren't monsters for enjoying these things, a fun game has just that; the ability to make enjoyable things that aren't necessarily purposed for enjoyment in the real world)
It ain't that deep. It's a thing I find gross and I'm willing to say so. Like, take the context out and Gun Gun Pixies is basically the same gameplay wise as Sniper Elite III. Incidentally, Sniper Elite III is *also* one of those games who's context would change dramatically with minor alterations to cosmetic details.
 

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Dreiko said:
Maybe your issue is being unable to disassociate yourself and whatever feelings spring forth when you play these games, which makes you feel icky, but you do have to know that not everyone else is actually like that. Some people can just...have fun cause it's fun, even if the object of the fun would be horrific in a real-world context. (cue in violence, killing people with swords, guns, scythes, that blood draining glove from Code Vein, the list goes on, people aren't monsters for enjoying these things, a fun game has just that; the ability to make enjoyable things that aren't necessarily purposed for enjoyment in the real world)
Oh lord forbid that some of us prefer being sexually attracted to women that we could bone IRL and not get asked pointed questions by the police. I looked at the linked articles and my brain promptly screamed: "pink-haired girl looks like she's 13 years old tops, ABORT, ABORT, ABORT!" I'm so sorry that that's a very niche kink that the majority of us on this website do not share. Also, you always play the "well games can be violent" card, except you miss the point that violence AND sex can be used in ways people consider tasteless. I mean, I'm going to assume you aren't going to go bat for Ethnic Cleansing or Super Colombine Massacre anytime soon. Also, game that mixes sexualization with violence, for example, gets a "nope from orbit" reaction from me.

Also, can I just point out that Jag and I have not said anything about the people who play these games, and you're the one throwing shade around about unfounded claims that people can't separate what makes them uncomfortable IRL with what makes them uncomfortable in-game...in a thread where the OP went on a rant about people who don't respect the tastes of other people. For me, not for thee, eh?

Dreiko said:
You're not an SJW for liking a gay character, you're only an SJW for liking a gay character because they're gay. Similarly, you're not one if you want good characters and are open to them being gay as long as they primarily are just good characters and are made not to enhance diversity or inclusion but just because they fit the artistic vision the creators had for their game.
I regularly interact with gay people IRL Dreiko, they find great pleasure in actually seeing people in media that represent them and as a result, like characters, in part, because they're gay.

I guess that makes them all SJWs? Get that horseshit the fuck out of here.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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erttheking said:
Dreiko said:
Maybe your issue is being unable to disassociate yourself and whatever feelings spring forth when you play these games, which makes you feel icky, but you do have to know that not everyone else is actually like that. Some people can just...have fun cause it's fun, even if the object of the fun would be horrific in a real-world context. (cue in violence, killing people with swords, guns, scythes, that blood draining glove from Code Vein, the list goes on, people aren't monsters for enjoying these things, a fun game has just that; the ability to make enjoyable things that aren't necessarily purposed for enjoyment in the real world)
Oh lord forbid that some of us prefer being sexually attracted to women that we could bone IRL and not get asked pointed questions by the police. I looked at the linked articles and my brain promptly screamed: "pink-haired girl looks like she's 13 years old tops, ABORT, ABORT, ABORT!" I'm so sorry that that's a very niche kink that the majority of us on this website do not share. Also, you always play the "well games can be violent" card, except you miss the point that violence AND sex can be used in ways people consider tasteless. I mean, I'm going to assume you aren't going to go bat for Ethnic Cleansing or Super Colombine Massacre anytime soon. Also, game that mixes sexualization with violence, for example, gets a "nope from orbit" reaction from me.

Also, can I just point out that Jag and I have not said anything about the people who play these games, and you're the one throwing shade around about unfounded claims that people can't separate what makes them uncomfortable IRL with what makes them uncomfortable in-game...in a thread where the OP went on a rant about people who don't respect the tastes of other people. For me, not for thee, eh?

Dreiko said:
You're not an SJW for liking a gay character, you're only an SJW for liking a gay character because they're gay. Similarly, you're not one if you want good characters and are open to them being gay as long as they primarily are just good characters and are made not to enhance diversity or inclusion but just because they fit the artistic vision the creators had for their game.
I regularly interact with gay people IRL Dreiko, they find great pleasure in actually seeing people in media that represent them and as a result, like characters, in part, because they're gay.

I guess that makes them all SJWs? Get that horseshit the fuck out of here.

The pink hair girl is one of the aliens actually, so she's the one you play as, not the human girls you shoot at. Either way though, you're putting arbitrary limitations to things which are actually just pure fun and making life difficult when you insert these concerns into something that has no need for them.


And see, I get enjoying seeing someone of your rare group in something, I just don't see why someone stops there. This joy you speak of is an initial reaction but you then have to delve deeper and the character has to have something more to them (a lot more) for the character to actually be someone you like from an artistic and cerebral and not a tribalistic standpoint. And if they DO have those traits, well, them being your group whatever that is will pale in comparison to all those other things that make em interesting, so when you speak of what you like about the character you'll have a lot more to pull from and mention than just this abritrary thing that you personally share with them but which is otherwise completely uninteresting to the average person and you'll instead mention all the other good stuff about the character.

When I see people bring up their personal common traits that they share with characters they like as to why these characters are good, I take that as a show that the character has nothing else going for them since if they did that'd be the thing to be prioritized and brought up first. If all it takes for you to like the character is just this much, that just means that you're a very shallow thinker and aren't worth taking seriously because you literally base quality and judgement decisions on arbitrary things.

At a bare minimum, one should be able to discern them liking a character for being this group versus the character being a good character for being of that group. The inability to at least do this much does indeed indicate a severe political if not cult-like form of bias at work which makes people into SJWs.
 

McElroy

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erttheking said:
Oh lord forbid that some of us prefer being sexually attracted to women that we could bone IRL and not get asked pointed questions by the police. I looked at the linked articles and my brain promptly screamed: "pink-haired girl looks like she's 13 years old tops, ABORT, ABORT, ABORT!" I'm so sorry that that's a very niche kink that the majority of us on this website do not share.
The anime police are all 17-year-olds too.

I mean, do you honestly make a difference between ecchi (or I dunno... hentai) in which the characters are 18 vs the one in which they are 16? They all look the same; it's all pedo bait anyways. To me it seems to take a lot of mental gymnastics to defend an almost indefensible habit with "at least they could consent" as if 2D cartoons had lives of their own.
 

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McElroy said:
erttheking said:
Oh lord forbid that some of us prefer being sexually attracted to women that we could bone IRL and not get asked pointed questions by the police. I looked at the linked articles and my brain promptly screamed: "pink-haired girl looks like she's 13 years old tops, ABORT, ABORT, ABORT!" I'm so sorry that that's a very niche kink that the majority of us on this website do not share.
The anime police are all 17-year-olds too.

I mean, do you honestly make a difference between ecchi (or I dunno... hentai) in which the characters are 18 vs the one in which they are 16? They all look the same; it's all pedo bait anyways. To me it seems to take a lot of mental gymnastics to defend an almost indefensible habit with "at least they could consent" as if 2D cartoons had lives of their own.
No, I have a problem with them looking like they?re 13, which is what I was calling out in this game. I don?t like girls. I like women.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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erttheking said:
McElroy said:
erttheking said:
Oh lord forbid that some of us prefer being sexually attracted to women that we could bone IRL and not get asked pointed questions by the police. I looked at the linked articles and my brain promptly screamed: "pink-haired girl looks like she's 13 years old tops, ABORT, ABORT, ABORT!" I'm so sorry that that's a very niche kink that the majority of us on this website do not share.
The anime police are all 17-year-olds too.

I mean, do you honestly make a difference between ecchi (or I dunno... hentai) in which the characters are 18 vs the one in which they are 16? They all look the same; it's all pedo bait anyways. To me it seems to take a lot of mental gymnastics to defend an almost indefensible habit with "at least they could consent" as if 2D cartoons had lives of their own.
No, I have a problem with them looking like they?re 13, which is what I was calling out in this game. I don?t like girls. I like women.

Then you're raising a different issue, the other guy was saying he thought they looked adult and was dismayed the artbook says some are 15-17 and that they looked as thought they could be all college students.

Hence, there's no objective standard here, and both of you that agree overall do also disagree about what age the chars seem to be.

I say we just not worry about something that's this degree of subjective with a game this decidedly silly and fun.
 

Erttheking

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Dreiko said:
erttheking said:
McElroy said:
erttheking said:
Oh lord forbid that some of us prefer being sexually attracted to women that we could bone IRL and not get asked pointed questions by the police. I looked at the linked articles and my brain promptly screamed: "pink-haired girl looks like she's 13 years old tops, ABORT, ABORT, ABORT!" I'm so sorry that that's a very niche kink that the majority of us on this website do not share.
The anime police are all 17-year-olds too.

I mean, do you honestly make a difference between ecchi (or I dunno... hentai) in which the characters are 18 vs the one in which they are 16? They all look the same; it's all pedo bait anyways. To me it seems to take a lot of mental gymnastics to defend an almost indefensible habit with "at least they could consent" as if 2D cartoons had lives of their own.
No, I have a problem with them looking like they?re 13, which is what I was calling out in this game. I don?t like girls. I like women.

Then you're raising a different issue, the other guy was saying he thought they looked adult and was dismayed the artbook says some are 15-17 and that they looked as thought they could be all college students.

Hence, there's no objective standard here, and both of you that agree overall do also disagree about what age the chars seem to be.

I say we just not worry about something that's this degree of subjective with a game this decidedly silly and fun.
That?s not quite what the poster I replied to was talking about. Though I will admit I am ruddy exhausted with Japan?s struggle to make someone who is sexy and also able to legally drink. Something?s wrong when Fire Emblem Three Houses, of all things, shakes things up so much.

Also, looking fifteen is definitely getting into icky territory. If they?re too young to give consent in Alabama, they?re way too young.
 

McElroy

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erttheking said:
Dreiko said:
erttheking said:
No, I have a problem with them looking like they?re 13, which is what I was calling out in this game. I don?t like girls. I like women.

Then you're raising a different issue, the other guy was saying he thought they looked adult and was dismayed the artbook says some are 15-17 and that they looked as thought they could be all college students.

Hence, there's no objective standard here, and both of you that agree overall do also disagree about what age the chars seem to be.

I say we just not worry about something that's this degree of subjective with a game this decidedly silly and fun.
That?s not quite what the poster I replied to was talking about. Though I will admit I am ruddy exhausted with Japan?s struggle to make someone who is sexy and also able to legally drink. Something?s wrong when Fire Emblem Three Houses, of all things, shakes things up so much.

Also, looking fifteen is definitely getting into icky territory. If they?re too young to give consent in Alabama, they?re way too young.
"Euphoria Guns" don't cause liver damage.

You do take the extra step to add real world sensibilities to stylized fantasy characters. What I'm saying is that I wouldn't scorn somebody any less for fantasizing about anime girls whether their supposed ages are 18 or 15. I find it a bit silly, and I think about it like, would my dream girl be a 16-year-old? No way in hell! But I can fantasize about getting all the girls I had a crush on when I was a ninth-grader in school.
 

Erttheking

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McElroy said:
erttheking said:
Dreiko said:
erttheking said:
No, I have a problem with them looking like they?re 13, which is what I was calling out in this game. I don?t like girls. I like women.

Then you're raising a different issue, the other guy was saying he thought they looked adult and was dismayed the artbook says some are 15-17 and that they looked as thought they could be all college students.

Hence, there's no objective standard here, and both of you that agree overall do also disagree about what age the chars seem to be.

I say we just not worry about something that's this degree of subjective with a game this decidedly silly and fun.
That?s not quite what the poster I replied to was talking about. Though I will admit I am ruddy exhausted with Japan?s struggle to make someone who is sexy and also able to legally drink. Something?s wrong when Fire Emblem Three Houses, of all things, shakes things up so much.

Also, looking fifteen is definitely getting into icky territory. If they?re too young to give consent in Alabama, they?re way too young.
"Euphoria Guns" don't cause liver damage.

You do take the extra step to add real world sensibilities to stylized fantasy characters. What I'm saying is that I wouldn't scorn somebody any less for fantasizing about anime girls whether their supposed ages are 18 or 15. I find it a bit silly, and I think about it like, would my dream girl be a 16-year-old? No way in hell! But I can fantasize about getting all the girls I had a crush on when I was a ninth-grader in school.
Do you see me scorning anyone? I'm scorning the game. We do that all the time on this website. And I'll happily scorn a game that shows me a fifteen year old and expects me to find it titillating.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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erttheking said:
Dreiko said:
erttheking said:
McElroy said:
erttheking said:
Oh lord forbid that some of us prefer being sexually attracted to women that we could bone IRL and not get asked pointed questions by the police. I looked at the linked articles and my brain promptly screamed: "pink-haired girl looks like she's 13 years old tops, ABORT, ABORT, ABORT!" I'm so sorry that that's a very niche kink that the majority of us on this website do not share.
The anime police are all 17-year-olds too.

I mean, do you honestly make a difference between ecchi (or I dunno... hentai) in which the characters are 18 vs the one in which they are 16? They all look the same; it's all pedo bait anyways. To me it seems to take a lot of mental gymnastics to defend an almost indefensible habit with "at least they could consent" as if 2D cartoons had lives of their own.
No, I have a problem with them looking like they?re 13, which is what I was calling out in this game. I don?t like girls. I like women.

Then you're raising a different issue, the other guy was saying he thought they looked adult and was dismayed the artbook says some are 15-17 and that they looked as thought they could be all college students.

Hence, there's no objective standard here, and both of you that agree overall do also disagree about what age the chars seem to be.

I say we just not worry about something that's this degree of subjective with a game this decidedly silly and fun.
That?s not quite what the poster I replied to was talking about. Though I will admit I am ruddy exhausted with Japan?s struggle to make someone who is sexy and also able to legally drink. Something?s wrong when Fire Emblem Three Houses, of all things, shakes things up so much.

Also, looking fifteen is definitely getting into icky territory. If they?re too young to give consent in Alabama, they?re way too young.
I'm referring to altname's earlier posts in this conversation and how even you two differ on your perception of the girls as being old enough to drink or not from an appearance standpoint.

And hey, drinking age in Japan is 20 whereas where I grew up there's no drinking age and if you're a kid you just have to be with your parents to get some wine or what have you, so that's also kinda utterly arbitrary. In our culture, half a glass of wine with a meal is said to help with digestion.
 

gyrobot_v1legacy

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erttheking said:
McElroy said:
erttheking said:
Dreiko said:
erttheking said:
No, I have a problem with them looking like they?re 13, which is what I was calling out in this game. I don?t like girls. I like women.

Then you're raising a different issue, the other guy was saying he thought they looked adult and was dismayed the artbook says some are 15-17 and that they looked as thought they could be all college students.

Hence, there's no objective standard here, and both of you that agree overall do also disagree about what age the chars seem to be.

I say we just not worry about something that's this degree of subjective with a game this decidedly silly and fun.
That?s not quite what the poster I replied to was talking about. Though I will admit I am ruddy exhausted with Japan?s struggle to make someone who is sexy and also able to legally drink. Something?s wrong when Fire Emblem Three Houses, of all things, shakes things up so much.

Also, looking fifteen is definitely getting into icky territory. If they?re too young to give consent in Alabama, they?re way too young.
"Euphoria Guns" don't cause liver damage.

You do take the extra step to add real world sensibilities to stylized fantasy characters. What I'm saying is that I wouldn't scorn somebody any less for fantasizing about anime girls whether their supposed ages are 18 or 15. I find it a bit silly, and I think about it like, would my dream girl be a 16-year-old? No way in hell! But I can fantasize about getting all the girls I had a crush on when I was a ninth-grader in school.
Do you see me scorning anyone? I'm scorning the game. We do that all the time on this website. And I'll happily scorn a game that shows me a fifteen year old and expects me to find it titillating.
I just plain scorn the game for what it represents. Aka enabling sites like Moegamer and how the owner desperates seeks approval for his genre of games and acting passive aggressive about it.
 

CaitSeith

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gyrobot said:
erttheking said:
McElroy said:
erttheking said:
Dreiko said:
erttheking said:
No, I have a problem with them looking like they?re 13, which is what I was calling out in this game. I don?t like girls. I like women.

Then you're raising a different issue, the other guy was saying he thought they looked adult and was dismayed the artbook says some are 15-17 and that they looked as thought they could be all college students.

Hence, there's no objective standard here, and both of you that agree overall do also disagree about what age the chars seem to be.

I say we just not worry about something that's this degree of subjective with a game this decidedly silly and fun.
That?s not quite what the poster I replied to was talking about. Though I will admit I am ruddy exhausted with Japan?s struggle to make someone who is sexy and also able to legally drink. Something?s wrong when Fire Emblem Three Houses, of all things, shakes things up so much.

Also, looking fifteen is definitely getting into icky territory. If they?re too young to give consent in Alabama, they?re way too young.
"Euphoria Guns" don't cause liver damage.

You do take the extra step to add real world sensibilities to stylized fantasy characters. What I'm saying is that I wouldn't scorn somebody any less for fantasizing about anime girls whether their supposed ages are 18 or 15. I find it a bit silly, and I think about it like, would my dream girl be a 16-year-old? No way in hell! But I can fantasize about getting all the girls I had a crush on when I was a ninth-grader in school.
Do you see me scorning anyone? I'm scorning the game. We do that all the time on this website. And I'll happily scorn a game that shows me a fifteen year old and expects me to find it titillating.
I just plain scorn the game for what it represents. Aka enabling sites like Moegamer and how the owner desperates seeks approval for his genre of games and acting passive aggressive about it.
Don't blame the game for the the vocal minority attitude. There is nothing in the game itself telling to the audience to feel defensive of liking it more than any other genre has.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Dreiko said:
I'm referring to altname's earlier posts in this conversation and how even you two differ on your perception of the girls as being old enough to drink or not from an appearance standpoint.
Nobody can, not really. That's why company policy is to card anybody who looks younger than 40. I, personally, have a real hard time with anybody younger than 25, and that's before the anime style takes effect. That's *why* I pay attention to stuff like art books. I bought this game because I had it on good authority it was about adults. That was a selling point. An almost UNIQUE selling point in a genre fill with 15-17 year olds. It isn't a game about adults, I'm salty about it. Given how horny the people I hang out with on social media (multiple Patreon and crowdfunded games/comics horny) these companies are leaving money on the table by insisting on kids.
This isn't an attack on anything but the game. A game which, otherwise, might be alright. Hell, I might even still end up liking it. Endorphins are awesome, I love giving those out. But it ain't starting out on a good footing. It's a tired trope.
erttheking said:
Do you see me scorning anyone? I'm scorning the game. We do that all the time on this website. And I'll happily scorn a game that shows me a fifteen year old and expects me to find it titillating.
It's real weird how this apparently arbitrary decision as far as how old characters are almost invariably arbitrarily sets a character's age at high-schooler or lower, you know?

You'd think random, arbitrary chance would have come up with more games with older characters by now, by accident if nothing else. (That said, the art book says they went with a 15 year old because they wanted a gal that still wore middle school clothes and they ditched a second legal adult because they would've had too many mature people. Disappointed, not surprised)
The creator of Senran Kagura *left* Marvelous because...Sony had a problem with tits out high school kids and he didn't want to set the next game in Ninja Secondary School. That's...that's a lot. Like, you can almost go full nips out in a Sony game if your character is an adult.

Quite clearly, the arbitrary age that shouldn't matter actually matters quite a bit.

Going back on topic: me saying all this is just criticism of a video game I was interested in based on my point of view. Whether or not this game is *for* me is largely irrelevant. It's okay to have an opinion on something even if you don't like it. Or if you like it, but have criticisms about specific issues. Or if you think it's terrible but enjoy it anyway. Bad movie nights are a thing.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
I'm referring to altname's earlier posts in this conversation and how even you two differ on your perception of the girls as being old enough to drink or not from an appearance standpoint.
Nobody can, not really. That's why company policy is to card anybody who looks younger than 40. I, personally, have a real hard time with anybody younger than 25, and that's before the anime style takes effect. That's *why* I pay attention to stuff like art books. I bought this game because I had it on good authority it was about adults. That was a selling point. An almost UNIQUE selling point in a genre fill with 15-17 year olds. It isn't a game about adults, I'm salty about it. Given how horny the people I hang out with on social media (multiple Patreon and crowdfunded games/comics horny) these companies are leaving money on the table by insisting on kids.
This isn't an attack on anything but the game. A game which, otherwise, might be alright. Hell, I might even still end up liking it. Endorphins are awesome, I love giving those out. But it ain't starting out on a good footing. It's a tired trope.
erttheking said:
Do you see me scorning anyone? I'm scorning the game. We do that all the time on this website. And I'll happily scorn a game that shows me a fifteen year old and expects me to find it titillating.
It's real weird how this apparently arbitrary decision as far as how old characters are almost invariably arbitrarily sets a character's age at high-schooler or lower, you know?

You'd think random, arbitrary chance would have come up with more games with older characters by now, by accident if nothing else. (That said, the art book says they went with a 15 year old because they wanted a gal that still wore middle school clothes and they ditched a second legal adult because they would've had too many mature people. Disappointed, not surprised)
The creator of Senran Kagura *left* Marvelous because...Sony had a problem with tits out high school kids and he didn't want to set the next game in Ninja Secondary School. That's...that's a lot. Like, you can almost go full nips out in a Sony game if your character is an adult.

Quite clearly, the arbitrary age that shouldn't matter actually matters quite a bit.

Going back on topic: me saying all this is just criticism of a video game I was interested in based on my point of view. Whether or not this game is *for* me is largely irrelevant. It's okay to have an opinion on something even if you don't like it. Or if you like it, but have criticisms about specific issues. Or if you think it's terrible but enjoy it anyway. Bad movie nights are a thing.


That's a silly line of criticism though. I'm sure they're also leaving a lot of furry money on the table by not making the characters furries, a lot of, what was that term someone mentioned in a different topic, "vindictive cucking" I believe it was, NTR lets call it, a lot of those people are also not being targeted.

Thing is, if you target the furries and the NTR folk (whatever surname they go by), you are also gonna be alienating some other group who isn't into this thing but who liked your game up to that point.


It's not as though there's a pile of money sitting there and they just don't jump to take it. They deem that by trying to take it, they will be jeopardizing the one they already have. This is the literal argument against mass-appeal in games and how it's better for a game to carve out an identity for itself than to just try to appeal to everyone because that ends up appealing to nobody.




And finally, you may be confusing the term "arbitrary" to mean "random". Arbitrary means "it doesn't really matter so might as well make it into the ideal". The age is arbitrary in the context of the appearance of anime characters, cause they can draw a 140cm short matchstick girl with no chest or hips and call her 18 and...she's gonna be 18 (that's actually Taiga from Toradora btw) and they can draw Yoko from Gurren Lagann with more curves than a frizzy afro and say she's 14 and...she will actually be 14, you could easily swap the two char's ages based on looks alone, so the looks and the age both are arbitrary.

It's why almost no anime characters are outright unattractive, even those who believe themselves to be so are still pretty attractive and all they need to do to turn into a 10 is take off their glasses or let their hair down, someone has to have some story-based reason to actually be ugly, kinda like that curvy girl in GGP who thinks she's fat when she's really really not.

So yeah, what you have with this and the SK director and so on is an ideal of beauty that is very prevalent in Japan, as the schoolgirl thing is a literal national sex symbol there. If you don't jive with that, you just gotta chalk that up to cultural differences.


Oh and this is a personal thing but I never got the point of bad movie nights. It's too cynical for me. Do you not have something you could earnestly enjoy and need to watch something to make fun of? What's the beauty in that? When I see something like Dragonball Evolution, I don't have fun at laughing at it, I am saddened by the amount of wrong that went on in it and can't help but think of the potential that could have been realized but was squandered. Not exactly a fun night activity lol.
 

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Dreiko said:
I'm referring to altname's earlier posts in this conversation and how even you two differ on your perception of the girls as being old enough to drink or not from an appearance standpoint.

And hey, drinking age in Japan is 20 whereas where I grew up there's no drinking age and if you're a kid you just have to be with your parents to get some wine or what have you, so that's also kinda utterly arbitrary. In our culture, half a glass of wine with a meal is said to help with digestion.
Ok, when I was talking about drinking age I wasn't literally basing my enjoyment on a person's ability to drink, it was a coy way of me referring to the age of 21. You took that comment a little too literally.

Dreiko said:
That's a silly line of criticism though. I'm sure they're also leaving a lot of furry money on the table by not making the characters furries, a lot of, what was that term someone mentioned in a different topic, "vindictive cucking" I believe it was, NTR lets call it, a lot of those people are also not being targeted.
I think both groups of people wouldn't care for being compared to Ephebophiles.

Dreiko said:
And finally, you may be confusing the term "arbitrary" to mean "random". Arbitrary means "it doesn't really matter so might as well make it into the ideal". The age is arbitrary in the context of the appearance of anime characters, cause they can draw a 140cm short matchstick girl with no chest or hips and call her 18 and...she's gonna be 18 (that's actually Taiga from Toradora btw) and they can draw Yoko from Gurren Lagann with more curves than a frizzy afro and say she's 14 and...she will actually be 14, you could easily swap the two char's ages based on looks alone, so the looks and the age both are arbitrary.
They've backtracked on the Yoko thing, she's 18 now. And you can talk about how it's arbitrary as much as you want, there's a not insignificant part of the audience who is going to see someone who is sexalized with a number that low over their head and the question they're going to ask is "...why? Why?" Because that takes them out of the experience and rips the fun out of the media for them. I know I had a harder time enjoying Yoko when she was 14, a problem that merrily when her age was clarified to be 18.
Dreiko said:
Oh and this is a personal thing but I never got the point of bad movie nights. It's too cynical for me. Do you not have something you could earnestly enjoy and need to watch something to make fun of? What's the beauty in that? When I see something like Dragonball Evolution, I don't have fun at laughing at it, I am saddened by the amount of wrong that went on in it and can't help but think of the potential that could have been realized but was squandered. Not exactly a fun night activity lol.
Oh we can. It's just that taking the piss out of things with your friends is a knee slapping good time. Particularly when you play off each other. It helps if there's a so bad its good movie.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0840359/
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Dreiko said:
It's not as though there's a pile of money sitting there and they just don't jump to take it. They deem that by trying to take it, they will be jeopardizing the one they already have. This is the literal argument against mass-appeal in games and how it's better for a game to carve out an identity for itself than to just try to appeal to everyone because that ends up appealing to nobody.
Okay, but: if making a character be 19 instead of the average 17 loses sales...you know how that looks, right? It's just an arbitrary number, not something to jettison your job over. It's not like any supposed character writing would be hugely impacted. Like, if you, for some reason, still need an academic environment where people who don't particularly like each other still need to hang out day in and day out, secondary education exists.

Dreiko said:
So yeah, what you have with this and the SK director and so on is an ideal of beauty that is very prevalent in Japan, as the schoolgirl thing is a literal national sex symbol there. If you don't jive with that, you just gotta chalk that up to cultural differences.
High school cheerleaders are a sex symbol in the States too. Like Japanese schoolgirls, it's not a sex symbol with positive connotations when the target audience is grown ass men. Of course, Much like cheerleader uniforms as they exist in reality vs as they exist in porn, your average Japanese high school uniform doesn't include a mini skirt. So if you're only goal is "uniform as sex symbol", and you're already modifying the heck out of it for lewdness sake, why does the gal wearing it have to actually be in high school?
Dreiko said:
Oh and this is a personal thing but I never got the point of bad movie nights. It's too cynical for me. Do you not have something you could earnestly enjoy and need to watch something to make fun of? What's the beauty in that? When I see something like Dragonball Evolution, I don't have fun at laughing at it, I am saddened by the amount of wrong that went on in it and can't help but think of the potential that could have been realized but was squandered. Not exactly a fun night activity lol.
No, see: you earnestly enjoy the bad movie. You then also make fun of it's terribleness.
I recommend checking out MST3K on YouTube or Netflix to get an idea of what it's like. A couple of my favorites are Catalina Caper or Moon Zero Two
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
It's not as though there's a pile of money sitting there and they just don't jump to take it. They deem that by trying to take it, they will be jeopardizing the one they already have. This is the literal argument against mass-appeal in games and how it's better for a game to carve out an identity for itself than to just try to appeal to everyone because that ends up appealing to nobody.
Okay, but: if making a character be 19 instead of the average 17 loses sales...you know how that looks, right? It's just an arbitrary number, not something to jettison your job over. It's not like any supposed character writing would be hugely impacted. Like, if you, for some reason, still need an academic environment where people who don't particularly like each other still need to hang out day in and day out, secondary education exists.

Dreiko said:
So yeah, what you have with this and the SK director and so on is an ideal of beauty that is very prevalent in Japan, as the schoolgirl thing is a literal national sex symbol there. If you don't jive with that, you just gotta chalk that up to cultural differences.
High school cheerleaders are a sex symbol in the States too. Like Japanese schoolgirls, it's not a sex symbol with positive connotations when the target audience is grown ass men. Of course, Much like cheerleader uniforms as they exist in reality vs as they exist in porn, your average Japanese high school uniform doesn't include a mini skirt. So if you're only goal is "uniform as sex symbol", and you're already modifying the heck out of it for lewdness sake, why does the gal wearing it have to actually be in high school?
Dreiko said:
Oh and this is a personal thing but I never got the point of bad movie nights. It's too cynical for me. Do you not have something you could earnestly enjoy and need to watch something to make fun of? What's the beauty in that? When I see something like Dragonball Evolution, I don't have fun at laughing at it, I am saddened by the amount of wrong that went on in it and can't help but think of the potential that could have been realized but was squandered. Not exactly a fun night activity lol.
No, see: you earnestly enjoy the bad movie. You then also make fun of it's terribleness.
I recommend checking out MST3K on YouTube or Netflix to get an idea of what it's like. A couple of my favorites are Catalina Caper or Moon Zero Two

So, this is pretty high level kink stuff, but in short and simple terms, there's a difference between cosplaying as a thing (schoolgirl, cheerleader, etc.) and actually being that. The dynamic is just entirely different. To imply that it's just about the outfit or even the length of the skirts or how conventionally sexy they are is just completely missing the point here when the topic is more particularly fetishy stuff. In fact you can actually have a type with a conservative appearance fit someone's bill more so than a skimpier one. Think of the class president types with skirts over their knees, glasses, dark pantyhose, that sort of thing.

Due to various reasons, there's a demand for the latter that is both different in nature and unable to be fulfilled by the former. To pretend that just having someone cosplay as a highschool student will fulfill the same job is just flatly incorrect. In japan they go as far as have cafes where you go and chat with actual schoolgirls even, and let me tell you, there's plenty of prostitutes willing to cosplay for you there too, yet, there still is a demand for the platonic chat cafe too.


So when we enter the realm of fantasy where various moral and legal issues are not relevant any more, and when you have something arbitrary, and when you have this demand that can spawn offline cafes where you go and talk about your day with schoolgirls, it's easy to see why one would go on to have the arbitrary ages be this particular ideal.
 

Erttheking

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Dreiko said:
So, this is pretty high level kink stuff, but in short and simple terms, there's a difference between cosplaying as a thing (schoolgirl, cheerleader, etc.) and actually being that. The dynamic is just entirely different. To imply that it's just about the outfit or even the length of the skirts or how conventionally sexy they are is just completely missing the point here when the topic is more particularly fetishy stuff. In fact you can actually have a type with a conservative appearance fit someone's bill more so than a skimpier one. Think of the class president types with skirts over their knees, glasses, dark pantyhose, that sort of thing.
Ok stop. Stop there, stop RIGHT the hell there. High level kink stuff? HIGH LEVEL KINK STUFF!? That's entry level kink stuff tops! Come back to me when you have a latex suit and a St Andrews Cross, THEN we'll start using the words "high level." And since we're venturing into the realm of kink, yes it is about more than just wearing the outfits, but in kink it's usually also about a level of trust and power exchange that you don't really ever see in these games, they just go straight to "look at character, she hot.". It isn't an apt comparison. Look at Ladykiller in a Bind if you want to actually see a game talk about power dynamics in kink. With people who are legally adults.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Dreiko said:
So, this is pretty high level kink stuff, but in short and simple terms, there's a difference between cosplaying as a thing (schoolgirl, cheerleader, etc.) and actually being that. The dynamic is just entirely different.
Yes Dreiko, the dynamic between a 19 year old pretending and a 17 or 15 year old *is* very different, hence why I'm perfectly fine with a weird lewd game about shooting 19 year olds with endorphins until they need a bath but disappointed when most of the cast turns out to be 17 or 15 because of inaccurate reporting. That's...that's what I've been arguing this whole time.

Dreiko said:
To imply that it's just about the outfit or even the length of the skirts or how conventionally sexy they are is just completely missing the point here when the topic is more particularly fetishy stuff. In fact you can actually have a type with a conservative appearance fit someone's bill more so than a skimpier one. Think of the class president types with skirts over their knees, glasses, dark pantyhose, that sort of thing.

Due to various reasons, there's a demand for the latter that is both different in nature and unable to be fulfilled by the former. To pretend that just having someone cosplay as a highschool student will fulfill the same job is just flatly incorrect. In japan they go as far as have cafes where you go and chat with actual schoolgirls even, and let me tell you, there's plenty of prostitutes willing to cosplay for you there too, yet, there still is a demand for the platonic chat cafe too.

So when we enter the realm of fantasy where various moral and legal issues are not relevant any more, and when you have something arbitrary, and when you have this demand that can spawn offline cafes where you go and talk about your day with schoolgirls, it's easy to see why one would go on to have the arbitrary ages be this particular ideal.
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/07/06/national/crime-legal/tokyos-new-jk-ordinance-takes-aim-schoolgirl-exploitation/#.XbSFkC9MGf0
 

Silvanus

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Dreiko said:
Right so, whether it befits such themes to take center stage will ultimately depend on the type of game you have and the sort of story. In persona 2 innocent sin you have a gay party member that's pretty clearly into the protagonist, and it fits just fine. In FFXIII you have Fang and Vanille and Fang was initially made to be a dude but they ended up making them both girls and absolutely nobody complained about them being as close as they were (Fang in fact is my fav char in the whole game).
Vanille and Fang? Who're never confirmed to be gay or in a relationship? Yeah, great example of representation there. Your other example is a 20-year-old game, in a series which has since depicted gay NPCs as perverts and nothing else.

Actually, both of these are good examples of one thing, though: deniability. People tend to be a lot happier with characters that might possibly be gay, but never talk about relationships or attraction or anything gay-- the occasional ambiguous glance is alright, at most.

Straight characters, of course, can have wives and girlfriends, or talk about crushes and relationships etc. Gay characters gotta keep that stuff quiet as hell if they want to avoid the ire.

Dreiko said:
But when you have certain themes and terminology that really doesn't belong in the world narrative just appear it feels trite and artificial. Ultimately it's about not being lazy and trying to go for easy virtue points.

The "why make them gay" thing is idiotic btw, it's the same answer that you get to "why make this magician a 12 year old girl", you do that cause the artist wanted to. I never supported that. You're free to think a choice is bad but you don't get to question it, if you don't like it make your own game.
It's lazy? How come this complaint doesn't crop up for the millionth "family heirloom" quest, or the ten-thousandth "woman kidnapped" quest? Those will be all but guaranteed to pop up in almost every fantasy RPG-- themes about LGBT stuff are bloody rare by comparison, but they're "lazy"?

Dreiko said:
Ok so I need to clarify, this isn't any old basic sidequest in an rpg. This is a special set of important sidequests that act as the supporting cast's main story in a sense, how you resolve them has huge impact, may cause you to enter romance with the party member or become enemies and have them leave the party or have them gain new jobs. There's this one dude who you choose between letting all his old comrades die and tie him back to his homeland's religious war or not for example. They're the most important sort of sidequest in the game basically. They are cut from a different cloth than the typical "go kill 10 wolves and bring me their pelts" sort.

And the reason gay conversion therapy is trite is that it doesn't actually fit in the world. The DA world is pretty open and accepting to gay people. The idea that you'd even try to magically un-gay someone through a ritual makes absolutely no sense in the world either. This was all conjured up to give the people in the real world something to feel virtuous about playing. This isn't the same as you being able to kill the KKK in red dead 2, the KKK being in that game actually fits and makes sense and Arthur would take them out indeed.
This just sounds like you believe you have a more solid understanding of the world than the actual writers and devs do.
 

CaitSeith

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Dreiko said:
Can you reword your arguments without using the term "virtue signaling"? I can't follow what you are trying to say.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
So, this is pretty high level kink stuff, but in short and simple terms, there's a difference between cosplaying as a thing (schoolgirl, cheerleader, etc.) and actually being that. The dynamic is just entirely different.
Yes Dreiko, the dynamic between a 19 year old pretending and a 17 or 15 year old *is* very different, hence why I'm perfectly fine with a weird lewd game about shooting 19 year olds with endorphins until they need a bath but disappointed when most of the cast turns out to be 17 or 15 because of inaccurate reporting. That's...that's what I've been arguing this whole time.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/07/06/national/crime-legal/tokyos-new-jk-ordinance-takes-aim-schoolgirl-exploitation/#.XbSFkC9MGf0
You know what else is pretty shady in the real world Japan? Idols. Tons of horror stories stemming from ties to yakuza and so on. Hence why I don't care at all about real world idols and just play games with them. If it's a game it's ok basically wraps this up.

Silvanus said:
Dreiko said:
Right so, whether it befits such themes to take center stage will ultimately depend on the type of game you have and the sort of story. In persona 2 innocent sin you have a gay party member that's pretty clearly into the protagonist, and it fits just fine. In FFXIII you have Fang and Vanille and Fang was initially made to be a dude but they ended up making them both girls and absolutely nobody complained about them being as close as they were (Fang in fact is my fav char in the whole game).
Vanille and Fang? Who're never confirmed to be gay or in a relationship? Yeah, great example of representation there. Your other example is a 20-year-old game, in a series which has since depicted gay NPCs as perverts and nothing else.

Actually, both of these are good examples of one thing, though: deniability. People tend to be a lot happier with characters that might possibly be gay, but never talk about relationships or attraction or anything gay-- the occasional ambiguous glance is alright, at most.

Straight characters, of course, can have wives and girlfriends, or talk about crushes and relationships etc. Gay characters gotta keep that stuff quiet as hell if they want to avoid the ire.
Vanille and Fang's relationship is not treated any different than Lightning and Hope's actually. There's various stages in a relationship that a couple can be in. There's the Serah and Snow who are already a couple, there's Sazh who already has a kid, there's the couple who has been friends and has a spark of chemistry but hasn't taken the next step (but read the fabulla nova crystallis novels cause those do take some steps alright lol) and there's the early stage attraction with Hope who is also kind of a kid which ends up complicating things some.

It's lazy? How come this complaint doesn't crop up for the millionth "family heirloom" quest, or the ten-thousandth "woman kidnapped" quest? Those will be all but guaranteed to pop up in almost every fantasy RPG-- themes about LGBT stuff are bloody rare by comparison, but they're "lazy"?



This just sounds like you believe you have a more solid understanding of the world than the actual writers and devs do.


You do raise a reasonable point about abducted wives and heirlooms and so on. I'll tell you why that's different. Those stories are not created to (at the very least seemingly) promote heterosexuality. They do not feel like cis propaganda trying to turn the world straight. They feel like just normal events and normal drama. The issue with the magical gay conversion therapy is that it distinctly feels contrived in order to have something gay in a game and not something that organically fits. The laziness comes from inserting a real world thing as-is into the game and not from trying to make it somehow make sense in the world.


It would be me believing that I understand the world better if I were to imply that the writers did this out of error. I did not say that. I said that they did that to virtue signal, which is the issue. They're basically willingly worsening and jeopardizing their game to score social points and seem progressive out of a calculation that whatever damage they do to their reputation by squandering the potential of one of the better characters in the game is gonna be compensated for (and then some) through the good will they garner for themselves, which is my complaint, as such an act is actively bad for games.


Notice, this is an issue raised out of actively liking the gay dude in this game and wanting him to be more interesting. Not out of hating him.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
So, this is pretty high level kink stuff, but in short and simple terms, there's a difference between cosplaying as a thing (schoolgirl, cheerleader, etc.) and actually being that. The dynamic is just entirely different.
Yes Dreiko, the dynamic between a 19 year old pretending and a 17 or 15 year old *is* very different, hence why I'm perfectly fine with a weird lewd game about shooting 19 year olds with endorphins until they need a bath but disappointed when most of the cast turns out to be 17 or 15 because of inaccurate reporting. That's...that's what I've been arguing this whole time.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/07/06/national/crime-legal/tokyos-new-jk-ordinance-takes-aim-schoolgirl-exploitation/#.XbSFkC9MGf0
You know what else is pretty shady in the real world Japan? Idols. Tons of horror stories stemming from ties to yakuza and so on. Hence why I don't care at all about real world idols and just play games with them. If it's a game it's ok basically wraps this up.
Man, you can't say that making these gals 19 and 21 instead of 15 and 17 would *matter* and is *important* to the folks that want them to be younger for the implications and then hand wave the literal opposite of the coin away as irrelevant.

You can't bring up "but Japan has X" and then just ignore the heinous shit that happens because of it because it's inconvenient to your argument.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
So, this is pretty high level kink stuff, but in short and simple terms, there's a difference between cosplaying as a thing (schoolgirl, cheerleader, etc.) and actually being that. The dynamic is just entirely different.
Yes Dreiko, the dynamic between a 19 year old pretending and a 17 or 15 year old *is* very different, hence why I'm perfectly fine with a weird lewd game about shooting 19 year olds with endorphins until they need a bath but disappointed when most of the cast turns out to be 17 or 15 because of inaccurate reporting. That's...that's what I've been arguing this whole time.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/07/06/national/crime-legal/tokyos-new-jk-ordinance-takes-aim-schoolgirl-exploitation/#.XbSFkC9MGf0
You know what else is pretty shady in the real world Japan? Idols. Tons of horror stories stemming from ties to yakuza and so on. Hence why I don't care at all about real world idols and just play games with them. If it's a game it's ok basically wraps this up.
Man, you can't say that making these gals 19 and 21 instead of 15 and 17 would *matter* and is *important* to the folks that want them to be younger for the implications and then hand wave the literal opposite of the coin away as irrelevant.

You can't bring up "but Japan has X" and then just ignore the heinous shit that happens because of it because it's inconvenient to your argument.
I don't see how all that real world stuff is relevant in the world of fiction. If anything, more people playing games with these elements would serve to reduce the amount of real world problems. Japan already is one of the biggest if not the biggest consumer of games and other such media in the world and they have some of the lowest rates of those types of crimes despite still having some such crimes so you definitely can't say that games are promoting them. What they're doing is channeling a demand in a harmless direction.

Oh and the actually important thing for me here is freedom of expression. Like one Ken Akamitsu of Love Hina and Mahou Sensei Negima fame said during some hearings back like a decade ago; you can't pick and choose and say this one thing is dirty and cut it out. Everything has to be allowed in fiction or eventually nothing will be.


The truly important thing for me isn't whether the chars really are 15-17 since they all look however they look, some will look 25 and some will look 12 and their personalities can follow in that pattern too. No, the important thing is if some artist decides that the char is 17 we treat that as equivalently worthy of respect as any other age, as either age would equally be the artist's expression were they to pick it. Like I explained with the term arbitrary, when you have such ages and appearances not really matter, what you get is indeed the clearest expression of the artist that you can get.
 

Erttheking

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Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
So, this is pretty high level kink stuff, but in short and simple terms, there's a difference between cosplaying as a thing (schoolgirl, cheerleader, etc.) and actually being that. The dynamic is just entirely different.
Yes Dreiko, the dynamic between a 19 year old pretending and a 17 or 15 year old *is* very different, hence why I'm perfectly fine with a weird lewd game about shooting 19 year olds with endorphins until they need a bath but disappointed when most of the cast turns out to be 17 or 15 because of inaccurate reporting. That's...that's what I've been arguing this whole time.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/07/06/national/crime-legal/tokyos-new-jk-ordinance-takes-aim-schoolgirl-exploitation/#.XbSFkC9MGf0
You know what else is pretty shady in the real world Japan? Idols. Tons of horror stories stemming from ties to yakuza and so on. Hence why I don't care at all about real world idols and just play games with them. If it's a game it's ok basically wraps this up.
Man, you can't say that making these gals 19 and 21 instead of 15 and 17 would *matter* and is *important* to the folks that want them to be younger for the implications and then hand wave the literal opposite of the coin away as irrelevant.

You can't bring up "but Japan has X" and then just ignore the heinous shit that happens because of it because it's inconvenient to your argument.
I don't see how all that real world stuff is relevant in the world of fiction. If anything, more people playing games with these elements would serve to reduce the amount of real world problems. Japan already is one of the biggest if not the biggest consumer of games and other such media in the world and they have some of the lowest rates of those types of crimes despite still having some such crimes so you definitely can't say that games are promoting them. What they're doing is channeling a demand in a harmless direction.

Oh and the actually important thing for me here is freedom of expression. Like one Ken Akamitsu of Love Hina and Mahou Sensei Negima fame said during some hearings back like a decade ago; you can't pick and choose and say this one thing is dirty and cut it out. Everything has to be allowed in fiction or eventually nothing will be.


The truly important thing for me isn't whether the chars really are 15-17 since they all look however they look, some will look 25 and some will look 12 and their personalities can follow in that pattern too. No, the important thing is if some artist decides that the char is 17 we treat that as equivalently worthy of respect as any other age, as either age would equally be the artist's expression were they to pick it. Like I explained with the term arbitrary, when you have such ages and appearances not really matter, what you get is indeed the clearest expression of the artist that you can get.
Gonna have to stop you there. Japan has low murder rates, yes. Japan also has a massive sexual harassment problem. Hence the creation of female only train cars. Let?s not white wash. And no one is saying this should be banned, and freedom of expression extends to talking about how things suck too, you can?t have it both ways.
 

Silvanus

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Dreiko said:
Vanille and Fang's relationship is not treated any different than Lightning and Hope's actually. There's various stages in a relationship that a couple can be in. There's the Serah and Snow who are already a couple, there's Sazh who already has a kid, there's the couple who has been friends and has a spark of chemistry but hasn't taken the next step (but read the fabulla nova crystallis novels cause those do take some steps alright lol) and there's the early stage attraction with Hope who is also kind of a kid which ends up complicating things some.
Lightning and Hope who... aren't in a relationship in FFXIII. That's my point.

And if you're stretching it to include the whole series, then I'd say Lightning and Hope getting into a confirmed relationship and Vanille & Fang not doing that at any point is quite a substantial difference in treatment.

You do raise a reasonable point about abducted wives and heirlooms and so on. I'll tell you why that's different. Those stories are not created to (at the very least seemingly) promote heterosexuality. They do not feel like cis propaganda trying to turn the world straight. They feel like just normal events and normal drama. The issue with the magical gay conversion therapy is that it distinctly feels contrived in order to have something gay in a game and not something that organically fits. The laziness comes from inserting a real world thing as-is into the game and not from trying to make it somehow make sense in the world.
I'm going to be generous and assume the line about "promoting heterosexuality" is not pushing the despicable idea that portrayal of gay people & themes is "promoting homosexuality", because that idea has already got a history of leading to persecution and censorship in my country.

It would be me believing that I understand the world better if I were to imply that the writers did this out of error. I did not say that. I said that they did that to virtue signal, which is the issue. They're basically willingly worsening and jeopardizing their game to score social points and seem progressive out of a calculation that whatever damage they do to their reputation by squandering the potential of one of the better characters in the game is gonna be compensated for (and then some) through the good will they garner for themselves, which is my complaint, as such an act is actively bad for games.


Notice, this is an issue raised out of actively liking the gay dude in this game and wanting him to be more interesting. Not out of hating him.
Lord, if the presence of a gay-centric storyline "squanders the potential" of a character for you, then I would be inclined to think you're quite actively hostile to those themes.

Real world stuff is put in fantasy settings. Fantasy settings are almost all deeply rooted in real world political & historic context, and Dragon Age is no different. This is not about organic presentation, because it sounds to me like your idea of organic presentation would just involve the gay characters never talking about anything to do with romance or difficulties (you know, the stuff gay people can actually relate to).
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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erttheking said:
Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
So, this is pretty high level kink stuff, but in short and simple terms, there's a difference between cosplaying as a thing (schoolgirl, cheerleader, etc.) and actually being that. The dynamic is just entirely different.
Yes Dreiko, the dynamic between a 19 year old pretending and a 17 or 15 year old *is* very different, hence why I'm perfectly fine with a weird lewd game about shooting 19 year olds with endorphins until they need a bath but disappointed when most of the cast turns out to be 17 or 15 because of inaccurate reporting. That's...that's what I've been arguing this whole time.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/07/06/national/crime-legal/tokyos-new-jk-ordinance-takes-aim-schoolgirl-exploitation/#.XbSFkC9MGf0
You know what else is pretty shady in the real world Japan? Idols. Tons of horror stories stemming from ties to yakuza and so on. Hence why I don't care at all about real world idols and just play games with them. If it's a game it's ok basically wraps this up.
Man, you can't say that making these gals 19 and 21 instead of 15 and 17 would *matter* and is *important* to the folks that want them to be younger for the implications and then hand wave the literal opposite of the coin away as irrelevant.

You can't bring up "but Japan has X" and then just ignore the heinous shit that happens because of it because it's inconvenient to your argument.
I don't see how all that real world stuff is relevant in the world of fiction. If anything, more people playing games with these elements would serve to reduce the amount of real world problems. Japan already is one of the biggest if not the biggest consumer of games and other such media in the world and they have some of the lowest rates of those types of crimes despite still having some such crimes so you definitely can't say that games are promoting them. What they're doing is channeling a demand in a harmless direction.

Oh and the actually important thing for me here is freedom of expression. Like one Ken Akamitsu of Love Hina and Mahou Sensei Negima fame said during some hearings back like a decade ago; you can't pick and choose and say this one thing is dirty and cut it out. Everything has to be allowed in fiction or eventually nothing will be.


The truly important thing for me isn't whether the chars really are 15-17 since they all look however they look, some will look 25 and some will look 12 and their personalities can follow in that pattern too. No, the important thing is if some artist decides that the char is 17 we treat that as equivalently worthy of respect as any other age, as either age would equally be the artist's expression were they to pick it. Like I explained with the term arbitrary, when you have such ages and appearances not really matter, what you get is indeed the clearest expression of the artist that you can get.
Gonna have to stop you there. Japan has low murder rates, yes. Japan also has a massive sexual harassment problem. Hence the creation of female only train cars. Let?s not white wash. And no one is saying this should be banned, and freedom of expression extends to talking about how things suck too, you can?t have it both ways.

That actually is an issue primarily stemming from how packed trains can be. They literally have people packed like sardines in those trains and have to sometimes push them in to get the doors to close during rush hour. If you're this tightly packed you can't help but have your body brush up all over the people around you and some people take advantage.

It's more of a crime of opportunity than anything where you have people go into those trains and claim their groping was accidental. Most of those same people would not go on to sexually assault someone in a less ambiguous situation. They even have a term for this specific type of person called "chikan". Though that is a distinctly different sort of criminal from someone who'd actually commit any sort of statutory rape or prostitution with a minor, which was what I was specifically responding about in the post you're quoting.

Silvanus said:
Dreiko said:
Vanille and Fang's relationship is not treated any different than Lightning and Hope's actually. There's various stages in a relationship that a couple can be in. There's the Serah and Snow who are already a couple, there's Sazh who already has a kid, there's the couple who has been friends and has a spark of chemistry but hasn't taken the next step (but read the fabulla nova crystallis novels cause those do take some steps alright lol) and there's the early stage attraction with Hope who is also kind of a kid which ends up complicating things some.
Lightning and Hope who... aren't in a relationship in FFXIII. That's my point.

And if you're stretching it to include the whole series, then I'd say Lightning and Hope getting into a confirmed relationship and Vanille & Fang not doing that at any point is quite a substantial difference in treatment.

You do raise a reasonable point about abducted wives and heirlooms and so on. I'll tell you why that's different. Those stories are not created to (at the very least seemingly) promote heterosexuality. They do not feel like cis propaganda trying to turn the world straight. They feel like just normal events and normal drama. The issue with the magical gay conversion therapy is that it distinctly feels contrived in order to have something gay in a game and not something that organically fits. The laziness comes from inserting a real world thing as-is into the game and not from trying to make it somehow make sense in the world.
I'm going to be generous and assume the line about "promoting heterosexuality" is not pushing the despicable idea that portrayal of gay people & themes is "promoting homosexuality", because that idea has already got a history of leading to persecution and censorship in my country.

It would be me believing that I understand the world better if I were to imply that the writers did this out of error. I did not say that. I said that they did that to virtue signal, which is the issue. They're basically willingly worsening and jeopardizing their game to score social points and seem progressive out of a calculation that whatever damage they do to their reputation by squandering the potential of one of the better characters in the game is gonna be compensated for (and then some) through the good will they garner for themselves, which is my complaint, as such an act is actively bad for games.


Notice, this is an issue raised out of actively liking the gay dude in this game and wanting him to be more interesting. Not out of hating him.
Lord, if the presence of a gay-centric storyline "squanders the potential" of a character for you, then I would be inclined to think you're quite actively hostile to those themes.

Real world stuff is put in fantasy settings. Fantasy settings are almost all deeply rooted in real world political & historic context, and Dragon Age is no different. This is not about organic presentation, because it sounds to me like your idea of organic presentation would just involve the gay characters never talking about anything to do with romance or difficulties (you know, the stuff gay people can actually relate to).

You don't have to actively be in a relationship for there to be signs of chemistry in the story that make it clear someone's into people of the same gender as they are. I don't understand why there has to be this limitation where if you're not obvious about it you're trying to hide or deny something when these sorts of games especially tend to be ambiguous about most such situations anyways. The reason why in a lot of anime and jrpgs you have people shipping various couples in their heads is show of this exact ambiguity but you can still see a current going through despite it.


When there's portals of hell opening all around you and the one gay character's biggest hurdle is his evil mage, slave-owning, human-sacrifice-performing dad not liking that he's gay, while the world is ending, then yeah, that's just a whole lot of potential this char had that's been squandered lol.

I think you're being reductive in defining this as dislike for gay centric storyline in a vacuum when the actual context is a world where a hell of a lot of cool and dire stuff is happening all over the place. When in that context, all this mundane stuff is at best a parenthesis. You can have it flavor a character's past, like how the Qunari's religious code is used to give them interesting backstory, but then they have to move past that and go into something actually interesting.

Oh and this reminds me, I think the qun is supposed to be a standin for islam (or at the very least heavily influenced by it) but because they don't actually just put literal islam in dragon age and have to come up with things and stuff that's actually interesting to make it somewhat distinct, you end up with something not at all mundane but which hits the same notes of philosophy and religion that islam also does. Now, see, this is actually the right way to go about this. An artful metaphor works at broaching these same ideas but is also interesting and fun and enriches the world. The only thing it doesn't do is give you virtue points for having a game with Islam in it.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Man, you can't say that making these gals 19 and 21 instead of 15 and 17 would *matter* and is *important* to the folks that want them to be younger for the implications and then hand wave the literal opposite of the coin away as irrelevant.

You can't bring up "but Japan has X" and then just ignore the heinous shit that happens because of it because it's inconvenient to your argument.
I don't see how all that real world stuff is relevant in the world of fiction. If anything, more people playing games with these elements would serve to reduce the amount of real world problems. Japan already is one of the biggest if not the biggest consumer of games and other such media in the world and they have some of the lowest rates of those types of crimes despite still having some such crimes so you definitely can't say that games are promoting them. What they're doing is channeling a demand in a harmless direction.
I'm not the one who brought in the "real world" and the platonic cafes were grown ass adults need to have conversations with children because once they graduate they no longer placate grown ass man's desire. I just pointed out the ways it became a huge problem with compensated dating, assault, prostitution, and sex trafficking. As far as the "lowest rates of those types of crime" goes, I'm reminded of that fairly widespread meme picture where the UK is saying loli porn is bad and the picture is comparing rates of rape between the two countries in 2014. The part they left out was that, in 2014, having sex with literal children wasn't rape in Japan unless violence was involved. Incest wasn't illegal. It wasn't rape if you put a gun to someone's head and forced them to give you a blowjob. Men and boys couldn't be legally raped *at all*. Rohypnols? Sure, drugging somebody's illegal, but after that it's not rape, the should've known better than to drink with you. Blackmail? Coercion? Long as it wasn't threats of violence, it's fair game.

It's easy to have low crime rates if nothing's defined as illegal. It's disturbing the amount of hentai out there that's tagged as "rape" that wouldn't've been rape under the Japanese legal code at the time. I'm like, 90% certain that nothing in Emergence/Metamorphosis counted as rape. Hell, a chunk of the above is *still* true, even after relatively major reforms. The Japanese feminists riot about it every few weeks. The biggest problem the police have with Chikan is either A) giving a shit, or B) getting people to overcome their social programming and actually make a scene. Most incidents of groping don't happen at rush hour. https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/04/21/national/media-national/chikan-japanese-term-groping-increasingly-recognized-abroad/#.Xbun3y9MGf0

Dreiko said:
The truly important thing for me isn't whether the chars really are 15-17 since they all look however they look, some will look 25 and some will look 12 and their personalities can follow in that pattern too. No, the important thing is if some artist decides that the char is 17 we treat that as equivalently worthy of respect as any other age, as either age would equally be the artist's expression were they to pick it. Like I explained with the term arbitrary, when you have such ages and appearances not really matter, what you get is indeed the clearest expression of the artist that you can get.
Yeah, and that clearest expression seems to be hard-capped at 17, with significant flex downwards,
Make no mistake: Marvelous, Compile Heart, Idea Factory et all are very much in the business of making money. It's my very firm belief that if they tone down their overwhelming schoolgirl fetish and make some ultimately minor tweaks to their arbitrary numbers, they could make *heaps* more money. And of that means otaku might have to recognize that people exist after they graduate high school, maybe that's for the better.
 

Silvanus

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Dreiko said:
You don't have to actively be in a relationship for there to be signs of chemistry in the story that make it clear someone's into people of the same gender as they are. I don't understand why there has to be this limitation where if you're not obvious about it you're trying to hide or deny something when these sorts of games especially tend to be ambiguous about most such situations anyways. The reason why in a lot of anime and jrpgs you have people shipping various couples in their heads is show of this exact ambiguity but you can still see a current going through despite it.
Nobody is saying a relationship has to be portrayed in a certain way. I'm saying that an ambiguous unconfirmed maybe-flirt is not the same thing as an actual romantic relationship.

Hell, I played FFXIII. I'm not straight, so I tend to pick up on whatever little clues I can. And I just thought they were platonic. I'd love it if it were otherwise, but you're clutching at straws.

When there's portals of hell opening all around you and the one gay character's biggest hurdle is his evil mage, slave-owning, human-sacrifice-performing dad not liking that he's gay, while the world is ending, then yeah, that's just a whole lot of potential this char had that's been squandered lol.
Yet we have dozens and dozens of quests about the less important stuff for every other character. This is expected and normal in RPGs. Yet the standard shifts when certain topics come up, and suddenly we shouldn't be addressing something because the world is at stake?


Oh and this reminds me, I think the qun is supposed to be a standin for islam (or at the very least heavily influenced by it) but because they don't actually just put literal islam in dragon age and have to come up with things and stuff that's actually interesting to make it somewhat distinct, you end up with something not at all mundane but which hits the same notes of philosophy and religion that islam also does. Now, see, this is actually the right way to go about this. An artful metaphor works at broaching these same ideas but is also interesting and fun and enriches the world. The only thing it doesn't do is give you virtue points for having a game with Islam in it.
This preoccupation with "virtue points" is not coming from the developers or even the publishers. They just put a quest in a game, among hundreds of other quests and themes. They didn't wax lyrical.

The obsessive discourse about "virtue" is coming squarely from the other side.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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Silvanus said:
Dreiko said:
You don't have to actively be in a relationship for there to be signs of chemistry in the story that make it clear someone's into people of the same gender as they are. I don't understand why there has to be this limitation where if you're not obvious about it you're trying to hide or deny something when these sorts of games especially tend to be ambiguous about most such situations anyways. The reason why in a lot of anime and jrpgs you have people shipping various couples in their heads is show of this exact ambiguity but you can still see a current going through despite it.
Nobody is saying a relationship has to be portrayed in a certain way. I'm saying that an ambiguous unconfirmed maybe-flirt is not the same thing as an actual romantic relationship.

Hell, I played FFXIII. I'm not straight, so I tend to pick up on whatever little clues I can. And I just thought they were platonic. I'd love it if it were otherwise, but you're clutching at straws.

When there's portals of hell opening all around you and the one gay character's biggest hurdle is his evil mage, slave-owning, human-sacrifice-performing dad not liking that he's gay, while the world is ending, then yeah, that's just a whole lot of potential this char had that's been squandered lol.
Yet we have dozens and dozens of quests about the less important stuff for every other character. This is expected and normal in RPGs. Yet the standard shifts when certain topics come up, and suddenly we shouldn't be addressing something because the world is at stake?


Oh and this reminds me, I think the qun is supposed to be a standin for islam (or at the very least heavily influenced by it) but because they don't actually just put literal islam in dragon age and have to come up with things and stuff that's actually interesting to make it somewhat distinct, you end up with something not at all mundane but which hits the same notes of philosophy and religion that islam also does. Now, see, this is actually the right way to go about this. An artful metaphor works at broaching these same ideas but is also interesting and fun and enriches the world. The only thing it doesn't do is give you virtue points for having a game with Islam in it.
This preoccupation with "virtue points" is not coming from the developers or even the publishers. They just put a quest in a game, among hundreds of other quests and themes. They didn't wax lyrical.

The obsessive discourse about "virtue" is coming squarely from the other side.

The relationship thing is a distinction without a difference in the context of gay portrayal. And no, nobody else's main quest is all that stuff. You find those quests for the insignificant random npcs and towndwellers and so on who have little relevance to the plot.


Finally, they actively advertised about their pro-gayness trying to earn virtue points about the character and the developer spoke proudly about it as they were making the game. I of course had no idea until after playing the game which was probably why I was excited about the character going in, expecting him to be about epic cool stuff. Maybe others saw it and had tempered their expectations so they weren't as disappointed? Anyways, here:

https://gamerant.com/dragon-age-inquisition-dorian-first-gay-character/


Literally calling him "full gay" which sounds like the name of a fun nightclub lol.


altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Man, you can't say that making these gals 19 and 21 instead of 15 and 17 would *matter* and is *important* to the folks that want them to be younger for the implications and then hand wave the literal opposite of the coin away as irrelevant.

You can't bring up "but Japan has X" and then just ignore the heinous shit that happens because of it because it's inconvenient to your argument.
I don't see how all that real world stuff is relevant in the world of fiction. If anything, more people playing games with these elements would serve to reduce the amount of real world problems. Japan already is one of the biggest if not the biggest consumer of games and other such media in the world and they have some of the lowest rates of those types of crimes despite still having some such crimes so you definitely can't say that games are promoting them. What they're doing is channeling a demand in a harmless direction.
I'm not the one who brought in the "real world" and the platonic cafes were grown ass adults need to have conversations with children because once they graduate they no longer placate grown ass man's desire. I just pointed out the ways it became a huge problem with compensated dating, assault, prostitution, and sex trafficking. As far as the "lowest rates of those types of crime" goes, I'm reminded of that fairly widespread meme picture where the UK is saying loli porn is bad and the picture is comparing rates of rape between the two countries in 2014. The part they left out was that, in 2014, having sex with literal children wasn't rape in Japan unless violence was involved. Incest wasn't illegal. It wasn't rape if you put a gun to someone's head and forced them to give you a blowjob. Men and boys couldn't be legally raped *at all*. Rohypnols? Sure, drugging somebody's illegal, but after that it's not rape, the should've known better than to drink with you. Blackmail? Coercion? Long as it wasn't threats of violence, it's fair game.

It's easy to have low crime rates if nothing's defined as illegal. It's disturbing the amount of hentai out there that's tagged as "rape" that wouldn't've been rape under the Japanese legal code at the time. I'm like, 90% certain that nothing in Emergence/Metamorphosis counted as rape. Hell, a chunk of the above is *still* true, even after relatively major reforms. The Japanese feminists riot about it every few weeks. The biggest problem the police have with Chikan is either A) giving a shit, or B) getting people to overcome their social programming and actually make a scene. Most incidents of groping don't happen at rush hour. https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/04/21/national/media-national/chikan-japanese-term-groping-increasingly-recognized-abroad/#.Xbun3y9MGf0

Dreiko said:
The truly important thing for me isn't whether the chars really are 15-17 since they all look however they look, some will look 25 and some will look 12 and their personalities can follow in that pattern too. No, the important thing is if some artist decides that the char is 17 we treat that as equivalently worthy of respect as any other age, as either age would equally be the artist's expression were they to pick it. Like I explained with the term arbitrary, when you have such ages and appearances not really matter, what you get is indeed the clearest expression of the artist that you can get.
Yeah, and that clearest expression seems to be hard-capped at 17, with significant flex downwards,
Make no mistake: Marvelous, Compile Heart, Idea Factory et all are very much in the business of making money. It's my very firm belief that if they tone down their overwhelming schoolgirl fetish and make some ultimately minor tweaks to their arbitrary numbers, they could make *heaps* more money. And of that means otaku might have to recognize that people exist after they graduate high school, maybe that's for the better.


So, while I agree that these things ought to be illegal, they still aren't actually rape either. You have two extremes here. You have Sweden and the like treating everything under the sun as rape, such as to in fact remove the gravity of rape by equating brutal assault that lives actual physical scars to people drunkenly bumping uglies and then waking up perfectly healthy and regretting it (the one who reports it first being a victim of rape) and then you have Japan where it's seen as a no big deal to grab someone's ass since "heru mon ja nai" or "you won't lose anything by it" XD.


So yeah, I agree that these things should be treated as crimes, but I don't agree that they should go towards the nation's actual rape statistics. They're more akin to public nuisance crimes or maybe assault at best if someone's being overly physical. Btw, I do remember that crazy British reporter lady trying to tell the creator of Girls und Panzer that he was supporting pedophilia under the guise of an unbiased interview, somehow. That was one hilarious interview indeed. Not a good example if you wanna show Japan as being unreasonable here lol.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Dreiko said:
So, while I agree that these things ought to be illegal, they still aren't actually rape either. You have two extremes here. You have Sweden and the like treating everything under the sun as rape, such as to in fact remove the gravity of rape by equating brutal assault that lives actual physical scars to people drunkenly bumping uglies and then waking up perfectly healthy and regretting it (the one who reports it first being a victim of rape) and then you have Japan where it's seen as a no big deal to grab someone's ass since "heru mon ja nai" or "you won't lose anything by it" XD.


So yeah, I agree that these things should be treated as crimes, but I don't agree that they should go towards the nation's actual rape statistics. They're more akin to public nuisance crimes or maybe assault at best if someone's being overly physical.
Okay, 1) whether or not you think they *should* count as rape, sexual assault, or other crimes is largely irrelevant to the fact that Japan wasn't counting them and the UK was, which explains a lot about the discrepancy about the two numbers which was the point, and
2) WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.

Dreiko said:
Btw, I do remember that crazy British reporter lady trying to tell the creator of Girls und Panzer that he was supporting pedophilia under the guise of an unbiased interview, somehow. That was one hilarious interview indeed. Not a good example if you wanna show Japan as being unreasonable here lol.
And considering literally nobody was making any assertions even remotely like that in this thread, I wonder why you bring it up.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
So, while I agree that these things ought to be illegal, they still aren't actually rape either. You have two extremes here. You have Sweden and the like treating everything under the sun as rape, such as to in fact remove the gravity of rape by equating brutal assault that lives actual physical scars to people drunkenly bumping uglies and then waking up perfectly healthy and regretting it (the one who reports it first being a victim of rape) and then you have Japan where it's seen as a no big deal to grab someone's ass since "heru mon ja nai" or "you won't lose anything by it" XD.


So yeah, I agree that these things should be treated as crimes, but I don't agree that they should go towards the nation's actual rape statistics. They're more akin to public nuisance crimes or maybe assault at best if someone's being overly physical.
Okay, 1) whether or not you think they *should* count as rape, sexual assault, or other crimes is largely irrelevant to the fact that Japan wasn't counting them and the UK was, which explains a lot about the discrepancy about the two numbers which was the point, and
2) WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.

Dreiko said:
Btw, I do remember that crazy British reporter lady trying to tell the creator of Girls und Panzer that he was supporting pedophilia under the guise of an unbiased interview, somehow. That was one hilarious interview indeed. Not a good example if you wanna show Japan as being unreasonable here lol.
And considering literally nobody was making any assertions even remotely like that in this thread, I wonder why you bring it up.
The implication, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that Japan should adopt the UK standard or that UK is accurate and Japan inaccurate. Otherwise, why bring this up as a counterpoint to Japan's low statistics to imply that they're not really low or that they ought to be higher. You wouldn't do so if you didn't think that UK's approach was more correct, hence my addressing that notion.


What I am actually seeing here is that Japan is less incorrect about its approach than the UK (though as stated, still incorrect), because I am of the view that it is better to not overpunish people than to underpunish them. Basically, if someone who performs minor nuisance offenses gets off without punishment, that's a smaller injustice than them getting prosecuted as a rapist. Neither is ideal or correct but the UK system is more unjust.


I brought up that interview because if was comical enough to have merit on humor alone but also because it shows you that the person arguing for the UK (when they were supposed to interviewing a dude) had some, like I was saying, extreme on the other side of the spectrum ideas that they were trying to sell to the reader in the guise of an unbiased interview, which is useful information to know when analyzing the credibility of her other claims.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
So, while I agree that these things ought to be illegal, they still aren't actually rape either. You have two extremes here. You have Sweden and the like treating everything under the sun as rape, such as to in fact remove the gravity of rape by equating brutal assault that lives actual physical scars to people drunkenly bumping uglies and then waking up perfectly healthy and regretting it (the one who reports it first being a victim of rape) and then you have Japan where it's seen as a no big deal to grab someone's ass since "heru mon ja nai" or "you won't lose anything by it" XD.


So yeah, I agree that these things should be treated as crimes, but I don't agree that they should go towards the nation's actual rape statistics. They're more akin to public nuisance crimes or maybe assault at best if someone's being overly physical.
Okay, 1) whether or not you think they *should* count as rape, sexual assault, or other crimes is largely irrelevant to the fact that Japan wasn't counting them and the UK was, which explains a lot about the discrepancy about the two numbers which was the point, and
2) WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.
The implication, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that Japan should adopt the UK standard or that UK is accurate and Japan inaccurate. Otherwise, why bring this up as a counterpoint to Japan's low statistics to imply that they're not really low or that they ought to be higher. You wouldn't do so if you didn't think that UK's approach was more correct, hence my addressing that notion.
YOU WERE THE ONE THAT BROUGHT UP JAPAN'S "LOWER RATES OF THAT TYPE OF CRIME". You can't just say that then ignore that lots of shit that the UK counts as "rape" (incestuous pedophilia, drugged drinks leading to rape, blackmail and extortion, etc) didn't (and to a disturbing degree still doesn't) count in Japan.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
So, while I agree that these things ought to be illegal, they still aren't actually rape either. You have two extremes here. You have Sweden and the like treating everything under the sun as rape, such as to in fact remove the gravity of rape by equating brutal assault that lives actual physical scars to people drunkenly bumping uglies and then waking up perfectly healthy and regretting it (the one who reports it first being a victim of rape) and then you have Japan where it's seen as a no big deal to grab someone's ass since "heru mon ja nai" or "you won't lose anything by it" XD.


So yeah, I agree that these things should be treated as crimes, but I don't agree that they should go towards the nation's actual rape statistics. They're more akin to public nuisance crimes or maybe assault at best if someone's being overly physical.
Okay, 1) whether or not you think they *should* count as rape, sexual assault, or other crimes is largely irrelevant to the fact that Japan wasn't counting them and the UK was, which explains a lot about the discrepancy about the two numbers which was the point, and
2) WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.
The implication, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that Japan should adopt the UK standard or that UK is accurate and Japan inaccurate. Otherwise, why bring this up as a counterpoint to Japan's low statistics to imply that they're not really low or that they ought to be higher. You wouldn't do so if you didn't think that UK's approach was more correct, hence my addressing that notion.
YOU WERE THE ONE THAT BROUGHT UP JAPAN'S "LOWER RATES OF THAT TYPE OF CRIME". You can't just say that then ignore that lots of shit that the UK counts as "rape" (incestuous pedophilia, drugged drinks leading to rape, blackmail and extortion, etc) didn't (and to a disturbing degree still doesn't) count in Japan.

Why not though? Is there some reason that the UK definition should matter above Japan's when discussing Japan's statistics? Is there something that proves it to be more close to reality?


You keep working under the presumption that just because the UK calls something rape, it is rape.
 

Erttheking

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Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
So, while I agree that these things ought to be illegal, they still aren't actually rape either. You have two extremes here. You have Sweden and the like treating everything under the sun as rape, such as to in fact remove the gravity of rape by equating brutal assault that lives actual physical scars to people drunkenly bumping uglies and then waking up perfectly healthy and regretting it (the one who reports it first being a victim of rape) and then you have Japan where it's seen as a no big deal to grab someone's ass since "heru mon ja nai" or "you won't lose anything by it" XD.


So yeah, I agree that these things should be treated as crimes, but I don't agree that they should go towards the nation's actual rape statistics. They're more akin to public nuisance crimes or maybe assault at best if someone's being overly physical.
Okay, 1) whether or not you think they *should* count as rape, sexual assault, or other crimes is largely irrelevant to the fact that Japan wasn't counting them and the UK was, which explains a lot about the discrepancy about the two numbers which was the point, and
2) WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.
The implication, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that Japan should adopt the UK standard or that UK is accurate and Japan inaccurate. Otherwise, why bring this up as a counterpoint to Japan's low statistics to imply that they're not really low or that they ought to be higher. You wouldn't do so if you didn't think that UK's approach was more correct, hence my addressing that notion.
YOU WERE THE ONE THAT BROUGHT UP JAPAN'S "LOWER RATES OF THAT TYPE OF CRIME". You can't just say that then ignore that lots of shit that the UK counts as "rape" (incestuous pedophilia, drugged drinks leading to rape, blackmail and extortion, etc) didn't (and to a disturbing degree still doesn't) count in Japan.

Why not though? Is there some reason that the UK definition should matter above Japan's when discussing Japan's statistics? Is there something that proves it to be more close to reality?


You keep working under the presumption that just because the UK calls something rape, it is rape.
Uh, when one definition is more narrow than the other? Yes. These statistics don't exist in a vacuum and jag was pointing it out. Acting like it doesn't matter is just missing the point. You can't pretend a lower rate of crime is anything to be proud of when it directly results from a more narrow definition of said crime.

Honestly, you're just blatantly debating in bad faith here. "The UK calls something rape, it is rape" is a presumption, hm? You wanna be coy? Ok. I'll play ball. Incestuous pedophilia, drugged drinks leading to rape, blackmail and extortion, etc.

Which of those do you object to being classified as rape?
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
So, while I agree that these things ought to be illegal, they still aren't actually rape either. You have two extremes here. You have Sweden and the like treating everything under the sun as rape, such as to in fact remove the gravity of rape by equating brutal assault that lives actual physical scars to people drunkenly bumping uglies and then waking up perfectly healthy and regretting it (the one who reports it first being a victim of rape) and then you have Japan where it's seen as a no big deal to grab someone's ass since "heru mon ja nai" or "you won't lose anything by it" XD.


So yeah, I agree that these things should be treated as crimes, but I don't agree that they should go towards the nation's actual rape statistics. They're more akin to public nuisance crimes or maybe assault at best if someone's being overly physical.
Okay, 1) whether or not you think they *should* count as rape, sexual assault, or other crimes is largely irrelevant to the fact that Japan wasn't counting them and the UK was, which explains a lot about the discrepancy about the two numbers which was the point, and
2) WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.
The implication, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that Japan should adopt the UK standard or that UK is accurate and Japan inaccurate. Otherwise, why bring this up as a counterpoint to Japan's low statistics to imply that they're not really low or that they ought to be higher. You wouldn't do so if you didn't think that UK's approach was more correct, hence my addressing that notion.
YOU WERE THE ONE THAT BROUGHT UP JAPAN'S "LOWER RATES OF THAT TYPE OF CRIME". You can't just say that then ignore that lots of shit that the UK counts as "rape" (incestuous pedophilia, drugged drinks leading to rape, blackmail and extortion, etc) didn't (and to a disturbing degree still doesn't) count in Japan.

Why not though? Is there some reason that the UK definition should matter above Japan's when discussing Japan's statistics? Is there something that proves it to be more close to reality?


You keep working under the presumption that just because the UK calls something rape, it is rape.
When it comes to statistics, it absolutely matters. You have to compare like-to-like.
You can't say Freedonia has half the murder rate of Examplestan so it's safer when Freedonia only counts killings that happen on the weekend as murder.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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erttheking said:
Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
So, while I agree that these things ought to be illegal, they still aren't actually rape either. You have two extremes here. You have Sweden and the like treating everything under the sun as rape, such as to in fact remove the gravity of rape by equating brutal assault that lives actual physical scars to people drunkenly bumping uglies and then waking up perfectly healthy and regretting it (the one who reports it first being a victim of rape) and then you have Japan where it's seen as a no big deal to grab someone's ass since "heru mon ja nai" or "you won't lose anything by it" XD.


So yeah, I agree that these things should be treated as crimes, but I don't agree that they should go towards the nation's actual rape statistics. They're more akin to public nuisance crimes or maybe assault at best if someone's being overly physical.
Okay, 1) whether or not you think they *should* count as rape, sexual assault, or other crimes is largely irrelevant to the fact that Japan wasn't counting them and the UK was, which explains a lot about the discrepancy about the two numbers which was the point, and
2) WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.
The implication, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that Japan should adopt the UK standard or that UK is accurate and Japan inaccurate. Otherwise, why bring this up as a counterpoint to Japan's low statistics to imply that they're not really low or that they ought to be higher. You wouldn't do so if you didn't think that UK's approach was more correct, hence my addressing that notion.
YOU WERE THE ONE THAT BROUGHT UP JAPAN'S "LOWER RATES OF THAT TYPE OF CRIME". You can't just say that then ignore that lots of shit that the UK counts as "rape" (incestuous pedophilia, drugged drinks leading to rape, blackmail and extortion, etc) didn't (and to a disturbing degree still doesn't) count in Japan.

Why not though? Is there some reason that the UK definition should matter above Japan's when discussing Japan's statistics? Is there something that proves it to be more close to reality?


You keep working under the presumption that just because the UK calls something rape, it is rape.
Uh, when one definition is more narrow than the other? Yes. These statistics don't exist in a vacuum and jag was pointing it out. Acting like it doesn't matter is just missing the point. You can't pretend a lower rate of crime is anything to be proud of when it directly results from a more narrow definition of said crime.

Honestly, you're just blatantly debating in bad faith here. "The UK calls something rape, it is rape" is a presumption, hm? You wanna be coy? Ok. I'll play ball. Incestuous pedophilia, drugged drinks leading to rape, blackmail and extortion, etc.

Which of those do you object to being classified as rape?
That really makes sense only if you have some sort of third world country where people don't have human rights. Japan is a prosperous first world country so they are just as entitled to define rape in their own legal standard as any other nation. The standard isn't necessarily stricter just because it defines more thing as rape, it can also just be mistakenly overbroad. You're not "strict" when you behead jaywalkers and you are not taking a "bigger stand" against jaywalking when you do that, you're just being tyrannical. Do you think Saudi Arabia takes a stand against theft by cutting people's arms off? Aren't they just being insane?

Blackmail and extortion are...blackmail and extortion. What you blackmail and extort someone for, be it money or sex or to quit their job or to refuse a promotion, isn't (and shouldn't be) relevant. Or what, should we call extortion for a monetary sum theft now? See, that makes no sense.


And sure drugging someone in order to take advantage of them is rape but just having drunkenness organically lead to sex without anybody's intention to have that happen definitely shouldn't be.


altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
So, while I agree that these things ought to be illegal, they still aren't actually rape either. You have two extremes here. You have Sweden and the like treating everything under the sun as rape, such as to in fact remove the gravity of rape by equating brutal assault that lives actual physical scars to people drunkenly bumping uglies and then waking up perfectly healthy and regretting it (the one who reports it first being a victim of rape) and then you have Japan where it's seen as a no big deal to grab someone's ass since "heru mon ja nai" or "you won't lose anything by it" XD.


So yeah, I agree that these things should be treated as crimes, but I don't agree that they should go towards the nation's actual rape statistics. They're more akin to public nuisance crimes or maybe assault at best if someone's being overly physical.
Okay, 1) whether or not you think they *should* count as rape, sexual assault, or other crimes is largely irrelevant to the fact that Japan wasn't counting them and the UK was, which explains a lot about the discrepancy about the two numbers which was the point, and
2) WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.
The implication, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that Japan should adopt the UK standard or that UK is accurate and Japan inaccurate. Otherwise, why bring this up as a counterpoint to Japan's low statistics to imply that they're not really low or that they ought to be higher. You wouldn't do so if you didn't think that UK's approach was more correct, hence my addressing that notion.
YOU WERE THE ONE THAT BROUGHT UP JAPAN'S "LOWER RATES OF THAT TYPE OF CRIME". You can't just say that then ignore that lots of shit that the UK counts as "rape" (incestuous pedophilia, drugged drinks leading to rape, blackmail and extortion, etc) didn't (and to a disturbing degree still doesn't) count in Japan.

Why not though? Is there some reason that the UK definition should matter above Japan's when discussing Japan's statistics? Is there something that proves it to be more close to reality?


You keep working under the presumption that just because the UK calls something rape, it is rape.
When it comes to statistics, it absolutely matters. You have to compare like-to-like.
You can't say Freedonia has half the murder rate of Examplestan so it's safer when Freedonia only counts killings that happen on the weekend as murder.

It is like to like, each society gets to define whatever type of conduct as rape, and the societies that are more advanced and prosperous achieve this prosperity through in some part the accuracy of this definition (among a myriad of other things) so Japan being a very prosperous nation indicates some measure of accuracy to their criteria. Nobody forced the UK to choose a definition which will brand more of its citizens as rapists.

Also, rape is just one of the crimes and generally crimes all have a pattern to them. Japan has similarly low stats for all those other crimes too, not just rape, so a scenario where you get like 30 shootings total a year in the whole nation but there's this plague of rape is not really realistic. Rape happens the most in places where all the other types of crime also happen often, and Japan has the least of those other types of crimes.

So even with the UK standard you'd still end up with way fewer of them because the society is just safer and more law abiding overall.
 

Asita

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Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
So, while I agree that these things ought to be illegal, they still aren't actually rape either. You have two extremes here. You have Sweden and the like treating everything under the sun as rape, such as to in fact remove the gravity of rape by equating brutal assault that lives actual physical scars to people drunkenly bumping uglies and then waking up perfectly healthy and regretting it (the one who reports it first being a victim of rape) and then you have Japan where it's seen as a no big deal to grab someone's ass since "heru mon ja nai" or "you won't lose anything by it" XD.


So yeah, I agree that these things should be treated as crimes, but I don't agree that they should go towards the nation's actual rape statistics. They're more akin to public nuisance crimes or maybe assault at best if someone's being overly physical.
Okay, 1) whether or not you think they *should* count as rape, sexual assault, or other crimes is largely irrelevant to the fact that Japan wasn't counting them and the UK was, which explains a lot about the discrepancy about the two numbers which was the point, and
2) WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.
The implication, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that Japan should adopt the UK standard or that UK is accurate and Japan inaccurate. Otherwise, why bring this up as a counterpoint to Japan's low statistics to imply that they're not really low or that they ought to be higher. You wouldn't do so if you didn't think that UK's approach was more correct, hence my addressing that notion.
YOU WERE THE ONE THAT BROUGHT UP JAPAN'S "LOWER RATES OF THAT TYPE OF CRIME". You can't just say that then ignore that lots of shit that the UK counts as "rape" (incestuous pedophilia, drugged drinks leading to rape, blackmail and extortion, etc) didn't (and to a disturbing degree still doesn't) count in Japan.

Why not though? Is there some reason that the UK definition should matter above Japan's when discussing Japan's statistics? Is there something that proves it to be more close to reality?


You keep working under the presumption that just because the UK calls something rape, it is rape.
It doesn't matter whether the UK or Japan is in the right. What matters is that the statistics are not directly comparable due to their different methodologies. They only become comparable once the figures are adjusted so that they track the same phenomena. Either the UK zeroes out from its figure all instances attributable to incestuous pedophilia, drugged drinks leading to rape, blackmail and extortion, etc until it only tracks the same things that Japan's figure does, or Japan adds to its figure all instances attributable to incestuous pedophilia, drugged drinks leading to rape, blackmail and extortion, etc until it tracks the everything that the UK's figure accounts for. Which figure is adjusted is largely irrelevant. All that matters is that the acts tracked in the adjusted data become consistent between the data sets.

It's like adding fractions. You can't do it until you convert the fractions into a form where they share a denominator. In order to add 3/5 and 2/3, you have to first turn them into 9/15 and 10/15, respectively, giving you a result of 1 4/15. If a pair of similarly named statistics are defined differently, they lack that common denominator and have to be adjusted before they can be directly compared.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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Asita said:
Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
So, while I agree that these things ought to be illegal, they still aren't actually rape either. You have two extremes here. You have Sweden and the like treating everything under the sun as rape, such as to in fact remove the gravity of rape by equating brutal assault that lives actual physical scars to people drunkenly bumping uglies and then waking up perfectly healthy and regretting it (the one who reports it first being a victim of rape) and then you have Japan where it's seen as a no big deal to grab someone's ass since "heru mon ja nai" or "you won't lose anything by it" XD.


So yeah, I agree that these things should be treated as crimes, but I don't agree that they should go towards the nation's actual rape statistics. They're more akin to public nuisance crimes or maybe assault at best if someone's being overly physical.
Okay, 1) whether or not you think they *should* count as rape, sexual assault, or other crimes is largely irrelevant to the fact that Japan wasn't counting them and the UK was, which explains a lot about the discrepancy about the two numbers which was the point, and
2) WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.
The implication, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that Japan should adopt the UK standard or that UK is accurate and Japan inaccurate. Otherwise, why bring this up as a counterpoint to Japan's low statistics to imply that they're not really low or that they ought to be higher. You wouldn't do so if you didn't think that UK's approach was more correct, hence my addressing that notion.
YOU WERE THE ONE THAT BROUGHT UP JAPAN'S "LOWER RATES OF THAT TYPE OF CRIME". You can't just say that then ignore that lots of shit that the UK counts as "rape" (incestuous pedophilia, drugged drinks leading to rape, blackmail and extortion, etc) didn't (and to a disturbing degree still doesn't) count in Japan.

Why not though? Is there some reason that the UK definition should matter above Japan's when discussing Japan's statistics? Is there something that proves it to be more close to reality?


You keep working under the presumption that just because the UK calls something rape, it is rape.
It doesn't matter whether the UK or Japan is in the right. What matters is that the statistics are not directly comparable due to their different methodologies. They only become comparable once the figures are adjusted so that they track the same phenomena. Either the UK zeroes out from its figure all instances attributable to incestuous pedophilia, drugged drinks leading to rape, blackmail and extortion, etc until it only tracks the same things that Japan's figure does, or Japan adds to its figure all instances attributable to incestuous pedophilia, drugged drinks leading to rape, blackmail and extortion, etc until it tracks the everything that the UK's figure accounts for. Which figure is adjusted is largely irrelevant. All that matters is that the acts tracked in the adjusted data become consistent between the data sets.

It's like adding fractions. You can't do it until you convert the fractions into a form where they share a denominator. In order to add 3/5 and 2/3, you have to first turn them into 9/15 and 10/15, respectively, giving you a result of 1 4/15. If a pair of similarly named statistics are defined differently, they lack that common denominator and have to be adjusted before they can be directly compared.
Yes I understand the mathematics, I just don't see them philosophically applying when the subject at hand is something that wasn't generated by nature and we just calculate it and express that through math but rather it is something we arbitrarily define. In that situation, who is in the right would make the other one using bad information in their statistics, poisoning the result one way or another. It's like trying to calculate the length of the earth on the assumption it's flat. The math may be correct for a hypothetical flat earth but it is not indicative of reality which is what I'm talking about here. You can still calculate the length of the earth, you just have to do so differently than you would if it was flat, and you'd be actually correct despite the other equation using the right math, because it's based on a faulty hypothesis.

Rape stats aren't supposed to be a disembodied thing, they actually supposed to reflect some aspect of reality, not just math.
 

Erttheking

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Dreiko said:
erttheking said:
Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
So, while I agree that these things ought to be illegal, they still aren't actually rape either. You have two extremes here. You have Sweden and the like treating everything under the sun as rape, such as to in fact remove the gravity of rape by equating brutal assault that lives actual physical scars to people drunkenly bumping uglies and then waking up perfectly healthy and regretting it (the one who reports it first being a victim of rape) and then you have Japan where it's seen as a no big deal to grab someone's ass since "heru mon ja nai" or "you won't lose anything by it" XD.


So yeah, I agree that these things should be treated as crimes, but I don't agree that they should go towards the nation's actual rape statistics. They're more akin to public nuisance crimes or maybe assault at best if someone's being overly physical.
Okay, 1) whether or not you think they *should* count as rape, sexual assault, or other crimes is largely irrelevant to the fact that Japan wasn't counting them and the UK was, which explains a lot about the discrepancy about the two numbers which was the point, and
2) WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.
The implication, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that Japan should adopt the UK standard or that UK is accurate and Japan inaccurate. Otherwise, why bring this up as a counterpoint to Japan's low statistics to imply that they're not really low or that they ought to be higher. You wouldn't do so if you didn't think that UK's approach was more correct, hence my addressing that notion.
YOU WERE THE ONE THAT BROUGHT UP JAPAN'S "LOWER RATES OF THAT TYPE OF CRIME". You can't just say that then ignore that lots of shit that the UK counts as "rape" (incestuous pedophilia, drugged drinks leading to rape, blackmail and extortion, etc) didn't (and to a disturbing degree still doesn't) count in Japan.

Why not though? Is there some reason that the UK definition should matter above Japan's when discussing Japan's statistics? Is there something that proves it to be more close to reality?


You keep working under the presumption that just because the UK calls something rape, it is rape.
Uh, when one definition is more narrow than the other? Yes. These statistics don't exist in a vacuum and jag was pointing it out. Acting like it doesn't matter is just missing the point. You can't pretend a lower rate of crime is anything to be proud of when it directly results from a more narrow definition of said crime.

Honestly, you're just blatantly debating in bad faith here. "The UK calls something rape, it is rape" is a presumption, hm? You wanna be coy? Ok. I'll play ball. Incestuous pedophilia, drugged drinks leading to rape, blackmail and extortion, etc.

Which of those do you object to being classified as rape?
That really makes sense only if you have some sort of third world country where people don't have human rights. Japan is a prosperous first world country so they are just as entitled to define rape in their own legal standard as any other nation. The standard isn't necessarily stricter just because it defines more thing as rape, it can also just be mistakenly overbroad. You're not "strict" when you behead jaywalkers and you are not taking a "bigger stand" against jaywalking when you do that, you're just being tyrannical. Do you think Saudi Arabia takes a stand against theft by cutting people's arms off? Aren't they just being insane?

Blackmail and extortion are...blackmail and extortion. What you blackmail and extort someone for, be it money or sex or to quit their job or to refuse a promotion, isn't (and shouldn't be) relevant. Or what, should we call extortion for a monetary sum theft now? See, that makes no sense.


And sure drugging someone in order to take advantage of them is rape but just having drunkenness organically lead to sex without anybody's intention to have that happen definitely shouldn't be.


altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
So, while I agree that these things ought to be illegal, they still aren't actually rape either. You have two extremes here. You have Sweden and the like treating everything under the sun as rape, such as to in fact remove the gravity of rape by equating brutal assault that lives actual physical scars to people drunkenly bumping uglies and then waking up perfectly healthy and regretting it (the one who reports it first being a victim of rape) and then you have Japan where it's seen as a no big deal to grab someone's ass since "heru mon ja nai" or "you won't lose anything by it" XD.


So yeah, I agree that these things should be treated as crimes, but I don't agree that they should go towards the nation's actual rape statistics. They're more akin to public nuisance crimes or maybe assault at best if someone's being overly physical.
Okay, 1) whether or not you think they *should* count as rape, sexual assault, or other crimes is largely irrelevant to the fact that Japan wasn't counting them and the UK was, which explains a lot about the discrepancy about the two numbers which was the point, and
2) WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.
The implication, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that Japan should adopt the UK standard or that UK is accurate and Japan inaccurate. Otherwise, why bring this up as a counterpoint to Japan's low statistics to imply that they're not really low or that they ought to be higher. You wouldn't do so if you didn't think that UK's approach was more correct, hence my addressing that notion.
YOU WERE THE ONE THAT BROUGHT UP JAPAN'S "LOWER RATES OF THAT TYPE OF CRIME". You can't just say that then ignore that lots of shit that the UK counts as "rape" (incestuous pedophilia, drugged drinks leading to rape, blackmail and extortion, etc) didn't (and to a disturbing degree still doesn't) count in Japan.

Why not though? Is there some reason that the UK definition should matter above Japan's when discussing Japan's statistics? Is there something that proves it to be more close to reality?


You keep working under the presumption that just because the UK calls something rape, it is rape.
When it comes to statistics, it absolutely matters. You have to compare like-to-like.
You can't say Freedonia has half the murder rate of Examplestan so it's safer when Freedonia only counts killings that happen on the weekend as murder.

It is like to like, each society gets to define whatever type of conduct as rape, and the societies that are more advanced and prosperous achieve this prosperity through in some part the accuracy of this definition (among a myriad of other things) so Japan being a very prosperous nation indicates some measure of accuracy to their criteria. Nobody forced the UK to choose a definition which will brand more of its citizens as rapists.

Also, rape is just one of the crimes and generally crimes all have a pattern to them. Japan has similarly low stats for all those other crimes too, not just rape, so a scenario where you get like 30 shootings total a year in the whole nation but there's this plague of rape is not really realistic. Rape happens the most in places where all the other types of crime also happen often, and Japan has the least of those other types of crimes.

So even with the UK standard you'd still end up with way fewer of them because the society is just safer and more law abiding overall.
A first world country that is fucking awful at handling sexual assault. Don?t whitewash the shit that goes on over there just because it makes games you like. You think defining blackmail, underage incest, and drugged sex is comparable to beheading jaywalkers and cutting the hands off of pickpockets. Can you kindly not insult my intelligence with baseless hyperbole?

Define blackmail for theft as theft? I mean, yeah. We do that. This might blow your mind Dreiko but people can commit more than one crime at a time. You can commit blackmail and use that blackmail to commit another crime. Don?t be so simplistic in how you view the world.

Drunk people are not capable of giving consent, there is no ?organic? way for drunkness to lead to sex unless both people are black out drunk. Don?t act like drunk women aren?t taken advantage of, I?ve seen enough victim blaming to know that they are.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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erttheking said:
Dreiko said:
erttheking said:
Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
So, while I agree that these things ought to be illegal, they still aren't actually rape either. You have two extremes here. You have Sweden and the like treating everything under the sun as rape, such as to in fact remove the gravity of rape by equating brutal assault that lives actual physical scars to people drunkenly bumping uglies and then waking up perfectly healthy and regretting it (the one who reports it first being a victim of rape) and then you have Japan where it's seen as a no big deal to grab someone's ass since "heru mon ja nai" or "you won't lose anything by it" XD.


So yeah, I agree that these things should be treated as crimes, but I don't agree that they should go towards the nation's actual rape statistics. They're more akin to public nuisance crimes or maybe assault at best if someone's being overly physical.
Okay, 1) whether or not you think they *should* count as rape, sexual assault, or other crimes is largely irrelevant to the fact that Japan wasn't counting them and the UK was, which explains a lot about the discrepancy about the two numbers which was the point, and
2) WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.
The implication, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that Japan should adopt the UK standard or that UK is accurate and Japan inaccurate. Otherwise, why bring this up as a counterpoint to Japan's low statistics to imply that they're not really low or that they ought to be higher. You wouldn't do so if you didn't think that UK's approach was more correct, hence my addressing that notion.
YOU WERE THE ONE THAT BROUGHT UP JAPAN'S "LOWER RATES OF THAT TYPE OF CRIME". You can't just say that then ignore that lots of shit that the UK counts as "rape" (incestuous pedophilia, drugged drinks leading to rape, blackmail and extortion, etc) didn't (and to a disturbing degree still doesn't) count in Japan.

Why not though? Is there some reason that the UK definition should matter above Japan's when discussing Japan's statistics? Is there something that proves it to be more close to reality?


You keep working under the presumption that just because the UK calls something rape, it is rape.
Uh, when one definition is more narrow than the other? Yes. These statistics don't exist in a vacuum and jag was pointing it out. Acting like it doesn't matter is just missing the point. You can't pretend a lower rate of crime is anything to be proud of when it directly results from a more narrow definition of said crime.

Honestly, you're just blatantly debating in bad faith here. "The UK calls something rape, it is rape" is a presumption, hm? You wanna be coy? Ok. I'll play ball. Incestuous pedophilia, drugged drinks leading to rape, blackmail and extortion, etc.

Which of those do you object to being classified as rape?
That really makes sense only if you have some sort of third world country where people don't have human rights. Japan is a prosperous first world country so they are just as entitled to define rape in their own legal standard as any other nation. The standard isn't necessarily stricter just because it defines more thing as rape, it can also just be mistakenly overbroad. You're not "strict" when you behead jaywalkers and you are not taking a "bigger stand" against jaywalking when you do that, you're just being tyrannical. Do you think Saudi Arabia takes a stand against theft by cutting people's arms off? Aren't they just being insane?

Blackmail and extortion are...blackmail and extortion. What you blackmail and extort someone for, be it money or sex or to quit their job or to refuse a promotion, isn't (and shouldn't be) relevant. Or what, should we call extortion for a monetary sum theft now? See, that makes no sense.


And sure drugging someone in order to take advantage of them is rape but just having drunkenness organically lead to sex without anybody's intention to have that happen definitely shouldn't be.


altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
So, while I agree that these things ought to be illegal, they still aren't actually rape either. You have two extremes here. You have Sweden and the like treating everything under the sun as rape, such as to in fact remove the gravity of rape by equating brutal assault that lives actual physical scars to people drunkenly bumping uglies and then waking up perfectly healthy and regretting it (the one who reports it first being a victim of rape) and then you have Japan where it's seen as a no big deal to grab someone's ass since "heru mon ja nai" or "you won't lose anything by it" XD.


So yeah, I agree that these things should be treated as crimes, but I don't agree that they should go towards the nation's actual rape statistics. They're more akin to public nuisance crimes or maybe assault at best if someone's being overly physical.
Okay, 1) whether or not you think they *should* count as rape, sexual assault, or other crimes is largely irrelevant to the fact that Japan wasn't counting them and the UK was, which explains a lot about the discrepancy about the two numbers which was the point, and
2) WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.
The implication, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that Japan should adopt the UK standard or that UK is accurate and Japan inaccurate. Otherwise, why bring this up as a counterpoint to Japan's low statistics to imply that they're not really low or that they ought to be higher. You wouldn't do so if you didn't think that UK's approach was more correct, hence my addressing that notion.
YOU WERE THE ONE THAT BROUGHT UP JAPAN'S "LOWER RATES OF THAT TYPE OF CRIME". You can't just say that then ignore that lots of shit that the UK counts as "rape" (incestuous pedophilia, drugged drinks leading to rape, blackmail and extortion, etc) didn't (and to a disturbing degree still doesn't) count in Japan.

Why not though? Is there some reason that the UK definition should matter above Japan's when discussing Japan's statistics? Is there something that proves it to be more close to reality?


You keep working under the presumption that just because the UK calls something rape, it is rape.
When it comes to statistics, it absolutely matters. You have to compare like-to-like.
You can't say Freedonia has half the murder rate of Examplestan so it's safer when Freedonia only counts killings that happen on the weekend as murder.

It is like to like, each society gets to define whatever type of conduct as rape, and the societies that are more advanced and prosperous achieve this prosperity through in some part the accuracy of this definition (among a myriad of other things) so Japan being a very prosperous nation indicates some measure of accuracy to their criteria. Nobody forced the UK to choose a definition which will brand more of its citizens as rapists.

Also, rape is just one of the crimes and generally crimes all have a pattern to them. Japan has similarly low stats for all those other crimes too, not just rape, so a scenario where you get like 30 shootings total a year in the whole nation but there's this plague of rape is not really realistic. Rape happens the most in places where all the other types of crime also happen often, and Japan has the least of those other types of crimes.

So even with the UK standard you'd still end up with way fewer of them because the society is just safer and more law abiding overall.
A first world country that is fucking awful at handling sexual assault. Don?t whitewash the shit that goes on over there just because it makes games you like. You think defining blackmail, underage incest, and drugged sex is comparable to beheading jaywalkers and cutting the hands off of pickpockets. Can you kindly not insult my intelligence with baseless hyperbole?

Define blackmail for theft as theft? I mean, yeah. We do that. This might blow your mind Dreiko but people can commit more than one crime at a time. You can commit blackmail and use that blackmail to commit another crime. Don?t be so simplistic in how you view the world.

Drunk people are not capable of giving consent, there is no ?organic? way for drunkness to lead to sex unless both people are black out drunk. Don?t act like drunk women aren?t taken advantage of, I?ve seen enough victim blaming to know that they are.

Now you're being obviously disingenuous lol. I only likened blackmail to beheadings, incest and whatnot being treated as crimes are fine which is why I didn't give you a counter argument.


And blackmail for theft would be like, blackmailing someone to make them steal something, not blackmailing someone for their own property that they can legally give to anyone without commiting theft. You're really stretching what I'm actually talking about here. Simply put, blackmail and extortion are already crimes. Having sex isn't a crime, giving things isn't a crime, etc. etc. so when someone blackmails you to do these legal acts that you just don't want to do, they are, yes, ONLY committing blackmail during that event, not rape or theft or anything else.



Having sex with someone who is unable to give consent without realizing they can't because you're drunk is just as organic as allowing sex to happen because you're too drunk to refuse. Neither party is more to blame when neither party purposefully got the other party drunk to take advantage. Just because some people do indeed do that doesn't mean every such case is one where malice was involved.
 

Erttheking

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Dreiko said:
erttheking said:
Dreiko said:
erttheking said:
Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
So, while I agree that these things ought to be illegal, they still aren't actually rape either. You have two extremes here. You have Sweden and the like treating everything under the sun as rape, such as to in fact remove the gravity of rape by equating brutal assault that lives actual physical scars to people drunkenly bumping uglies and then waking up perfectly healthy and regretting it (the one who reports it first being a victim of rape) and then you have Japan where it's seen as a no big deal to grab someone's ass since "heru mon ja nai" or "you won't lose anything by it" XD.


So yeah, I agree that these things should be treated as crimes, but I don't agree that they should go towards the nation's actual rape statistics. They're more akin to public nuisance crimes or maybe assault at best if someone's being overly physical.
Okay, 1) whether or not you think they *should* count as rape, sexual assault, or other crimes is largely irrelevant to the fact that Japan wasn't counting them and the UK was, which explains a lot about the discrepancy about the two numbers which was the point, and
2) WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.
The implication, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that Japan should adopt the UK standard or that UK is accurate and Japan inaccurate. Otherwise, why bring this up as a counterpoint to Japan's low statistics to imply that they're not really low or that they ought to be higher. You wouldn't do so if you didn't think that UK's approach was more correct, hence my addressing that notion.
YOU WERE THE ONE THAT BROUGHT UP JAPAN'S "LOWER RATES OF THAT TYPE OF CRIME". You can't just say that then ignore that lots of shit that the UK counts as "rape" (incestuous pedophilia, drugged drinks leading to rape, blackmail and extortion, etc) didn't (and to a disturbing degree still doesn't) count in Japan.

Why not though? Is there some reason that the UK definition should matter above Japan's when discussing Japan's statistics? Is there something that proves it to be more close to reality?


You keep working under the presumption that just because the UK calls something rape, it is rape.
Uh, when one definition is more narrow than the other? Yes. These statistics don't exist in a vacuum and jag was pointing it out. Acting like it doesn't matter is just missing the point. You can't pretend a lower rate of crime is anything to be proud of when it directly results from a more narrow definition of said crime.

Honestly, you're just blatantly debating in bad faith here. "The UK calls something rape, it is rape" is a presumption, hm? You wanna be coy? Ok. I'll play ball. Incestuous pedophilia, drugged drinks leading to rape, blackmail and extortion, etc.

Which of those do you object to being classified as rape?
That really makes sense only if you have some sort of third world country where people don't have human rights. Japan is a prosperous first world country so they are just as entitled to define rape in their own legal standard as any other nation. The standard isn't necessarily stricter just because it defines more thing as rape, it can also just be mistakenly overbroad. You're not "strict" when you behead jaywalkers and you are not taking a "bigger stand" against jaywalking when you do that, you're just being tyrannical. Do you think Saudi Arabia takes a stand against theft by cutting people's arms off? Aren't they just being insane?

Blackmail and extortion are...blackmail and extortion. What you blackmail and extort someone for, be it money or sex or to quit their job or to refuse a promotion, isn't (and shouldn't be) relevant. Or what, should we call extortion for a monetary sum theft now? See, that makes no sense.


And sure drugging someone in order to take advantage of them is rape but just having drunkenness organically lead to sex without anybody's intention to have that happen definitely shouldn't be.


altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
So, while I agree that these things ought to be illegal, they still aren't actually rape either. You have two extremes here. You have Sweden and the like treating everything under the sun as rape, such as to in fact remove the gravity of rape by equating brutal assault that lives actual physical scars to people drunkenly bumping uglies and then waking up perfectly healthy and regretting it (the one who reports it first being a victim of rape) and then you have Japan where it's seen as a no big deal to grab someone's ass since "heru mon ja nai" or "you won't lose anything by it" XD.


So yeah, I agree that these things should be treated as crimes, but I don't agree that they should go towards the nation's actual rape statistics. They're more akin to public nuisance crimes or maybe assault at best if someone's being overly physical.
Okay, 1) whether or not you think they *should* count as rape, sexual assault, or other crimes is largely irrelevant to the fact that Japan wasn't counting them and the UK was, which explains a lot about the discrepancy about the two numbers which was the point, and
2) WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.
The implication, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that Japan should adopt the UK standard or that UK is accurate and Japan inaccurate. Otherwise, why bring this up as a counterpoint to Japan's low statistics to imply that they're not really low or that they ought to be higher. You wouldn't do so if you didn't think that UK's approach was more correct, hence my addressing that notion.
YOU WERE THE ONE THAT BROUGHT UP JAPAN'S "LOWER RATES OF THAT TYPE OF CRIME". You can't just say that then ignore that lots of shit that the UK counts as "rape" (incestuous pedophilia, drugged drinks leading to rape, blackmail and extortion, etc) didn't (and to a disturbing degree still doesn't) count in Japan.

Why not though? Is there some reason that the UK definition should matter above Japan's when discussing Japan's statistics? Is there something that proves it to be more close to reality?


You keep working under the presumption that just because the UK calls something rape, it is rape.
When it comes to statistics, it absolutely matters. You have to compare like-to-like.
You can't say Freedonia has half the murder rate of Examplestan so it's safer when Freedonia only counts killings that happen on the weekend as murder.

It is like to like, each society gets to define whatever type of conduct as rape, and the societies that are more advanced and prosperous achieve this prosperity through in some part the accuracy of this definition (among a myriad of other things) so Japan being a very prosperous nation indicates some measure of accuracy to their criteria. Nobody forced the UK to choose a definition which will brand more of its citizens as rapists.

Also, rape is just one of the crimes and generally crimes all have a pattern to them. Japan has similarly low stats for all those other crimes too, not just rape, so a scenario where you get like 30 shootings total a year in the whole nation but there's this plague of rape is not really realistic. Rape happens the most in places where all the other types of crime also happen often, and Japan has the least of those other types of crimes.

So even with the UK standard you'd still end up with way fewer of them because the society is just safer and more law abiding overall.
A first world country that is fucking awful at handling sexual assault. Don?t whitewash the shit that goes on over there just because it makes games you like. You think defining blackmail, underage incest, and drugged sex is comparable to beheading jaywalkers and cutting the hands off of pickpockets. Can you kindly not insult my intelligence with baseless hyperbole?

Define blackmail for theft as theft? I mean, yeah. We do that. This might blow your mind Dreiko but people can commit more than one crime at a time. You can commit blackmail and use that blackmail to commit another crime. Don?t be so simplistic in how you view the world.

Drunk people are not capable of giving consent, there is no ?organic? way for drunkness to lead to sex unless both people are black out drunk. Don?t act like drunk women aren?t taken advantage of, I?ve seen enough victim blaming to know that they are.

Now you're being obviously disingenuous lol. I only likened blackmail to beheadings, incest and whatnot being treated as crimes are fine which is why I didn't give you a counter argument.


And blackmail for theft would be like, blackmailing someone to make them steal something, not blackmailing someone for their own property that they can legally give to anyone without commiting theft. You're really stretching what I'm actually talking about here. Simply put, blackmail and extortion are already crimes. Having sex isn't a crime, giving things isn't a crime, etc. etc. so when someone blackmails you to do these legal acts that you just don't want to do, they are, yes, ONLY committing blackmail during that event, not rape or theft or anything else.



Having sex with someone who is unable to give consent without realizing they can't because you're drunk is just as organic as allowing sex to happen because you're too drunk to refuse. Neither party is more to blame when neither party purposefully got the other party drunk to take advantage. Just because some people do indeed do that doesn't mean every such case is one where malice was involved.
You compared classifying someone who blackmailed a person into having sex against their will as rapists to beheading jaywalkers. A hyperbolic statement. No offense Dreiko, you?re starting to sound like those people who say it?s not rape if it wasn?t violent. And you agree with criminalizing underage incest? So do you agree that Japan?s definition of rape is too narrow? Because they don?t do that.

I know. That?s theft. If you blackmail someone into commit a crime, you are responsible for that crime. Kind of like how blackmailing someone into having sex is rape considering someone is being forced to have sex against their will. The signs of being drunk are very obvious. It?s very simple Dreiko. If they?re drunk and you?re not, keep it in your pants. Otherwise you are taking advantage of someone who is under the influence.

If someone can?t give consent and you have sex with them, you have raped them. ?I didn?t mean to? is not a valid defense.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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erttheking said:
Dreiko said:
erttheking said:
Dreiko said:
erttheking said:
Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
So, while I agree that these things ought to be illegal, they still aren't actually rape either. You have two extremes here. You have Sweden and the like treating everything under the sun as rape, such as to in fact remove the gravity of rape by equating brutal assault that lives actual physical scars to people drunkenly bumping uglies and then waking up perfectly healthy and regretting it (the one who reports it first being a victim of rape) and then you have Japan where it's seen as a no big deal to grab someone's ass since "heru mon ja nai" or "you won't lose anything by it" XD.


So yeah, I agree that these things should be treated as crimes, but I don't agree that they should go towards the nation's actual rape statistics. They're more akin to public nuisance crimes or maybe assault at best if someone's being overly physical.
Okay, 1) whether or not you think they *should* count as rape, sexual assault, or other crimes is largely irrelevant to the fact that Japan wasn't counting them and the UK was, which explains a lot about the discrepancy about the two numbers which was the point, and
2) WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.
The implication, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that Japan should adopt the UK standard or that UK is accurate and Japan inaccurate. Otherwise, why bring this up as a counterpoint to Japan's low statistics to imply that they're not really low or that they ought to be higher. You wouldn't do so if you didn't think that UK's approach was more correct, hence my addressing that notion.
YOU WERE THE ONE THAT BROUGHT UP JAPAN'S "LOWER RATES OF THAT TYPE OF CRIME". You can't just say that then ignore that lots of shit that the UK counts as "rape" (incestuous pedophilia, drugged drinks leading to rape, blackmail and extortion, etc) didn't (and to a disturbing degree still doesn't) count in Japan.

Why not though? Is there some reason that the UK definition should matter above Japan's when discussing Japan's statistics? Is there something that proves it to be more close to reality?


You keep working under the presumption that just because the UK calls something rape, it is rape.
Uh, when one definition is more narrow than the other? Yes. These statistics don't exist in a vacuum and jag was pointing it out. Acting like it doesn't matter is just missing the point. You can't pretend a lower rate of crime is anything to be proud of when it directly results from a more narrow definition of said crime.

Honestly, you're just blatantly debating in bad faith here. "The UK calls something rape, it is rape" is a presumption, hm? You wanna be coy? Ok. I'll play ball. Incestuous pedophilia, drugged drinks leading to rape, blackmail and extortion, etc.

Which of those do you object to being classified as rape?
That really makes sense only if you have some sort of third world country where people don't have human rights. Japan is a prosperous first world country so they are just as entitled to define rape in their own legal standard as any other nation. The standard isn't necessarily stricter just because it defines more thing as rape, it can also just be mistakenly overbroad. You're not "strict" when you behead jaywalkers and you are not taking a "bigger stand" against jaywalking when you do that, you're just being tyrannical. Do you think Saudi Arabia takes a stand against theft by cutting people's arms off? Aren't they just being insane?

Blackmail and extortion are...blackmail and extortion. What you blackmail and extort someone for, be it money or sex or to quit their job or to refuse a promotion, isn't (and shouldn't be) relevant. Or what, should we call extortion for a monetary sum theft now? See, that makes no sense.


And sure drugging someone in order to take advantage of them is rape but just having drunkenness organically lead to sex without anybody's intention to have that happen definitely shouldn't be.


altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
altnameJag said:
Dreiko said:
So, while I agree that these things ought to be illegal, they still aren't actually rape either. You have two extremes here. You have Sweden and the like treating everything under the sun as rape, such as to in fact remove the gravity of rape by equating brutal assault that lives actual physical scars to people drunkenly bumping uglies and then waking up perfectly healthy and regretting it (the one who reports it first being a victim of rape) and then you have Japan where it's seen as a no big deal to grab someone's ass since "heru mon ja nai" or "you won't lose anything by it" XD.


So yeah, I agree that these things should be treated as crimes, but I don't agree that they should go towards the nation's actual rape statistics. They're more akin to public nuisance crimes or maybe assault at best if someone's being overly physical.
Okay, 1) whether or not you think they *should* count as rape, sexual assault, or other crimes is largely irrelevant to the fact that Japan wasn't counting them and the UK was, which explains a lot about the discrepancy about the two numbers which was the point, and
2) WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.
The implication, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that Japan should adopt the UK standard or that UK is accurate and Japan inaccurate. Otherwise, why bring this up as a counterpoint to Japan's low statistics to imply that they're not really low or that they ought to be higher. You wouldn't do so if you didn't think that UK's approach was more correct, hence my addressing that notion.
YOU WERE THE ONE THAT BROUGHT UP JAPAN'S "LOWER RATES OF THAT TYPE OF CRIME". You can't just say that then ignore that lots of shit that the UK counts as "rape" (incestuous pedophilia, drugged drinks leading to rape, blackmail and extortion, etc) didn't (and to a disturbing degree still doesn't) count in Japan.

Why not though? Is there some reason that the UK definition should matter above Japan's when discussing Japan's statistics? Is there something that proves it to be more close to reality?


You keep working under the presumption that just because the UK calls something rape, it is rape.
When it comes to statistics, it absolutely matters. You have to compare like-to-like.
You can't say Freedonia has half the murder rate of Examplestan so it's safer when Freedonia only counts killings that happen on the weekend as murder.

It is like to like, each society gets to define whatever type of conduct as rape, and the societies that are more advanced and prosperous achieve this prosperity through in some part the accuracy of this definition (among a myriad of other things) so Japan being a very prosperous nation indicates some measure of accuracy to their criteria. Nobody forced the UK to choose a definition which will brand more of its citizens as rapists.

Also, rape is just one of the crimes and generally crimes all have a pattern to them. Japan has similarly low stats for all those other crimes too, not just rape, so a scenario where you get like 30 shootings total a year in the whole nation but there's this plague of rape is not really realistic. Rape happens the most in places where all the other types of crime also happen often, and Japan has the least of those other types of crimes.

So even with the UK standard you'd still end up with way fewer of them because the society is just safer and more law abiding overall.
A first world country that is fucking awful at handling sexual assault. Don?t whitewash the shit that goes on over there just because it makes games you like. You think defining blackmail, underage incest, and drugged sex is comparable to beheading jaywalkers and cutting the hands off of pickpockets. Can you kindly not insult my intelligence with baseless hyperbole?

Define blackmail for theft as theft? I mean, yeah. We do that. This might blow your mind Dreiko but people can commit more than one crime at a time. You can commit blackmail and use that blackmail to commit another crime. Don?t be so simplistic in how you view the world.

Drunk people are not capable of giving consent, there is no ?organic? way for drunkness to lead to sex unless both people are black out drunk. Don?t act like drunk women aren?t taken advantage of, I?ve seen enough victim blaming to know that they are.

Now you're being obviously disingenuous lol. I only likened blackmail to beheadings, incest and whatnot being treated as crimes are fine which is why I didn't give you a counter argument.


And blackmail for theft would be like, blackmailing someone to make them steal something, not blackmailing someone for their own property that they can legally give to anyone without commiting theft. You're really stretching what I'm actually talking about here. Simply put, blackmail and extortion are already crimes. Having sex isn't a crime, giving things isn't a crime, etc. etc. so when someone blackmails you to do these legal acts that you just don't want to do, they are, yes, ONLY committing blackmail during that event, not rape or theft or anything else.



Having sex with someone who is unable to give consent without realizing they can't because you're drunk is just as organic as allowing sex to happen because you're too drunk to refuse. Neither party is more to blame when neither party purposefully got the other party drunk to take advantage. Just because some people do indeed do that doesn't mean every such case is one where malice was involved.
You compared classifying someone who blackmailed a person into having sex against their will as rapists to beheading jaywalkers. A hyperbolic statement. No offense Dreiko, you?re starting to sound like those people who say it?s not rape if it wasn?t violent. And you agree with criminalizing underage incest? So do you agree that Japan?s definition of rape is too narrow? Because they don?t do that.

I know. That?s theft. If you blackmail someone into commit a crime, you are responsible for that crime. Kind of like how blackmailing someone into having sex is rape considering someone is being forced to have sex against their will. The signs of being drunk are very obvious. It?s very simple Dreiko. If they?re drunk and you?re not, keep it in your pants. Otherwise you are taking advantage of someone who is under the influence.

If someone can?t give consent and you have sex with them, you have raped them. ?I didn?t mean to? is not a valid defense.
Yes, didn't I say that there's two extremes here and that I think there's an actual middle ground? Incest should be criminalized, but not as rape, but as it's own type of crime. Not sure what you'd call it, endangering a minor or corrupting a minor? Something like that, not rape.

Blackmailing someone into having sex isn't the same as raping them. Basically, it's either rape and not blackmail or it's blackmail. Blackmail is making someone will themselves to do something over a threat. It's different from actually forcing them to do something irrespective of their will because the person has the option of suffering the consequences and refusing, whereas in a rape situation you take that option from them through force and they literally can't do anything to avoid the sex. It's basically severely worse to actively rob someone of the ability to make the choice than to simply present it.

And yes I said if BOTH people are drunk neither is being malicious, I don't know where you saw me say that if only one person is drunk it's the same as it is with both people. Yet in a lot of these tyrannical systems whoever reports the drunk sex first is a victim of rape.
 

Erttheking

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Dreiko said:
Yes, didn't I say that there's two extremes here and that I think there's an actual middle ground? Incest should be criminalized, but not as rape, but as it's own type of crime. Not sure what you'd call it, endangering a minor or corrupting a minor? Something like that, not rape.

Blackmailing someone into having sex isn't the same as raping them. Basically, it's either rape and not blackmail or it's blackmail. Blackmail is making someone will themselves to do something over a threat. It's different from actually forcing them to do something irrespective of their will because the person has the option of suffering the consequences and refusing, whereas in a rape situation you take that option from them through force and they literally can't do anything to avoid the sex. It's basically severely worse to actively rob someone of the ability to make the choice than to simply present it.

And yes I said if BOTH people are drunk neither is being malicious, I don't know where you saw me say that if only one person is drunk it's the same as it is with both people. Yet in a lot of these tyrannical systems whoever reports the drunk sex first is a victim of rape.
You do know that jag mentioned incestious pedophilia right? As in sex with someone who is underage? As in statitory rape? You are you going to tell me that sex with someone who is too young to get consent shouldn't be considered rape either?

Say that to someone who was blackmailed into having sex, see what happens. Also, what the fuck are you even talking about? It's not rape because they have the choice to accept the damages? That's like saying it's not rape if you hold a gun to someone's head because they can accept the damages. And even ignoring that, it's not a choice, it's an ultimatum. When you are threatened to do something you are not being threatened with a choice, your choices are being taken away.

Well I clarified I wasn't talking about two people being drunk at the same time, so I don't know why you brought it up. Also, even then, you kinda do say the two are the same. Look.

Dreiko said:
Having sex with someone who is unable to give consent without realizing they can't because you're drunk is just as organic as allowing sex to happen because you're too drunk to refuse. Neither party is more to blame when neither party purposefully got the other party drunk to take advantage. Just because some people do indeed do that doesn't mean every such case is one where malice was involved.
Both people having sex because they're too drunk is just as organic as allowing sex to happen because you're too drunk to refuse. Emphasis mine.

Dreiko? You fucking scare me man. You seem to be readily opposed to all but the most narrow definition of rape. If it's pedohilia, it isn't rape. If someone was blackmailed into having sex, it wasn't rape. If you're too drunk to refuse sex it's "organic."

Remember when people used to talk about rape culture Dreiko? This is it. Making excuses for everything but the most narrow definition of rape.
 

gyrobot_v1legacy

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More importantly this whole topic has degraded to a circular argument as you and altnamejag debate about the context of the sexual material vs the original topic of me arguing that not everybody's tastes deserves respect and trying to seek approval for it.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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I means, it kinda fits the idea.

This spiraled out of "niche ecchi games with passable controls and writing probably aren't going to score very well, doubly so when most of them feature kids"

But we've gotta justify, at any length, how they're Good, Actually.

Or at least, if somebody was calling Dragalia Lost gambling/gacha trash in a shiny-but-depressing wrapper, I wouldn't end up trying to argue that pachinko machines aren't gambling for culture reasons.
 

gyrobot_v1legacy

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altnameJag said:
I means, it kinda fits the idea.

This spiraled out of "niche ecchi games with passable controls and writing probably aren't going to score very well, doubly so when most of them feature kids"

But we've gotta justify, at any length, how they're Good, Actually.

Or at least, if somebody was calling Dragalia Lost gambling/gacha trash in a shiny-but-depressing wrapper, I wouldn't end up trying to argue that pachinko machines aren't gambling for culture reasons.
Still we could have did more damage breaking down Pete's article vs debating circularly with Dreiko
 

McElroy

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erttheking said:
Remember when people used to talk about rape culture? This is it. Making excuses for everything but the most narrow definition of rape.
Eh, y'know. Here in the civilized Northern Europe -- Finland, in fact -- rape requires violence, threat of violence, or the victim's helplessness (usually means a blackout drunk or otherwise unconscious/immobile person), and statutory rape isn't even written down (such might be a case of sexual abuse or unlawful sex with a minor, or abuse of a position of power like if a teacher sleeps with a student).

Broadening the term is in vogue now, so the parliament is on it one way or another, but it's a mistake in my opinion. Rapists already get off with a year of conditional discharge and paying between 5 and 7 thousand euros to the victim. "Yes means yes" -law brings about extremely difficult cases to prove, and the "new" rapists would get off even easier. People for it bring up that it's sending a message, because most obviously think rape is a big deal, but I think that a narrower definition like we have now is what keeps the heavy connotations of rape and rapists in there. Consent laws are for sexual abuse and rape laws for rape.

Also bestiality is still legal here, lol. Though the thought behind that is solid: anyone engaging in bestiality is most likely unwell themselves.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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erttheking said:
Dreiko said:
Yes, didn't I say that there's two extremes here and that I think there's an actual middle ground? Incest should be criminalized, but not as rape, but as it's own type of crime. Not sure what you'd call it, endangering a minor or corrupting a minor? Something like that, not rape.

Blackmailing someone into having sex isn't the same as raping them. Basically, it's either rape and not blackmail or it's blackmail. Blackmail is making someone will themselves to do something over a threat. It's different from actually forcing them to do something irrespective of their will because the person has the option of suffering the consequences and refusing, whereas in a rape situation you take that option from them through force and they literally can't do anything to avoid the sex. It's basically severely worse to actively rob someone of the ability to make the choice than to simply present it.

And yes I said if BOTH people are drunk neither is being malicious, I don't know where you saw me say that if only one person is drunk it's the same as it is with both people. Yet in a lot of these tyrannical systems whoever reports the drunk sex first is a victim of rape.
You do know that jag mentioned incestious pedophilia right? As in sex with someone who is underage? As in statitory rape? You are you going to tell me that sex with someone who is too young to get consent shouldn't be considered rape either?

Say that to someone who was blackmailed into having sex, see what happens. Also, what the fuck are you even talking about? It's not rape because they have the choice to accept the damages? That's like saying it's not rape if you hold a gun to someone's head because they can accept the damages. And even ignoring that, it's not a choice, it's an ultimatum. When you are threatened to do something you are not being threatened with a choice, your choices are being taken away.

Well I clarified I wasn't talking about two people being drunk at the same time, so I don't know why you brought it up. Also, even then, you kinda do say the two are the same. Look.

Dreiko said:
Having sex with someone who is unable to give consent without realizing they can't because you're drunk is just as organic as allowing sex to happen because you're too drunk to refuse. Neither party is more to blame when neither party purposefully got the other party drunk to take advantage. Just because some people do indeed do that doesn't mean every such case is one where malice was involved.
Both people having sex because they're too drunk is just as organic as allowing sex to happen because you're too drunk to refuse. Emphasis mine.

Dreiko? You fucking scare me man. You seem to be readily opposed to all but the most narrow definition of rape. If it's pedohilia, it isn't rape. If someone was blackmailed into having sex, it wasn't rape. If you're too drunk to refuse sex it's "organic."

Remember when people used to talk about rape culture Dreiko? This is it. Making excuses for everything but the most narrow definition of rape.

I think people call hebophellia something-rape because it's so frowned upon that they wish to use the sort of crime label in order to get the people who commit it the maximum amount of hate but no, I definitely don't think it's rape when something can be a loving marriage in one country (first hand experience on that front since my parents hit it off at ages 13 and 19 and they were married for over 25 years lol) and the same exact act is considered rape in another. If you think of it, when you qualify rape as statutory that is one way of admitting it to be a different type of thing than regular rape in the first place, so I'm fine with even considering it rape but different from normal usual rape, which is the type of rape we're discussing here.


And I don't think rape culture is anything to do with how you define rape, that's just a legal and logical argument. Rape culture is having positive feelings about these acts, not having negative feelings supportive of their criminalization but just wanting to classify them accurately.


I mean, if this is rape culture, you kinda neuter the term because you liken it to actual roaming rape gangs in the Congo which is who actually has a rape culture and sees women as tools for their enjoyment. And I'm supposedly the one who likes being over-dramatic apparently lol.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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McElroy said:
erttheking said:
Remember when people used to talk about rape culture? This is it. Making excuses for everything but the most narrow definition of rape.
Eh, y'know. Here in the civilized Northern Europe -- Finland, in fact -- rape requires violence, threat of violence, or the victim's helplessness (usually means a blackout drunk or otherwise unconscious/immobile person), and statutory rape isn't even written down (such might be a case of sexual abuse or unlawful sex with a minor, or abuse of a position of power like if a teacher sleeps with a student).

Broadening the term is in vogue now, so the parliament is on it one way or another, but it's a mistake in my opinion. Rapists already get off with a year of conditional discharge and paying between 5 and 7 thousand euros to the victim. "Yes means yes" -law brings about extremely difficult cases to prove, and the "new" rapists would get off even easier. People for it bring up that it's sending a message, because most obviously think rape is a big deal, but I think that a narrower definition like we have now is what keeps the heavy connotations of rape and rapists in there. Consent laws are for sexual abuse and rape laws for rape.

Also bestiality is still legal here, lol. Though the thought behind that is solid: anyone engaging in bestiality is most likely unwell themselves.
...Man, if a year of probation and a few thousand euro fine is all straight up violent rapists in Finland get as punishment, y'all don't need to worry about anybody taking rape *less* seriously by expanding its definition. Like, that kind of sentencing is a straight up scandal most other places.
Dreiko said:
I think people call hebophellia something-rape because it's so frowned upon that they wish to use the sort of crime label in order to get the people who commit it the maximum amount of hate but no, I definitely don't think it's rape when something can be a loving marriage in one country (first hand experience on that front since my parents hit it off at ages 13 and 19 and they were married for over 25 years lol) and the same exact act is considered rape in another. If you think of it, when you qualify rape as statutory that is one way of admitting it to be a different type of thing than regular rape in the first place, so I'm fine with even considering it rape but different from normal usual rape, which is the type of rape we're discussing here.
Buddy, I don't care how loving your relationship is, but a child cannot love their uncle or father enough to marry them. This "Japan is safer" myth you're trying to prop up because somebody dared criticize a high-school tiddy game is just fucking bonkers.
It's easy to have a low rape rate when parents having sex with their children isn't illegal and forcing a gal to drink alcohol to incapacity and then having your 6 person club gang-rape them doesn't count as rape. https://japantoday.com/category/crime/prosecutors-drop-rape-case-against-6-keio-university-students
So don't try to say "but Japan has lower rape stats" when the government's figuring that the number of people who report even pre-change violent rape to police is in its low single digits. You're comparing murders in a country that only happen on Sunday evening to murders in a country that happen all week.

For fuck's sake, every few months they're busting a rape club in a university for molesting other students, they've got special women only train cars, and they aren't letting this go: https://www.thedailybeast.com/in-japan-rape-cases-no-still-means-no-conviction-and-protests-are-growing

And you're spinning this because, what, random people on a web forum want more fanservice games to not have children in them? That it's super important that these characters remain under 18 (for fans) but that it shouldn't be important that these characters are under 18 (if you don't like it)? Man, just let people not like the thing. I don't need to know that your dad looked at a barely pubescent girl and said "I want to hit that" and it supposedly worked out. That factoid isn't going to stop me from making fun of bizarrely written ecchi games where loans don't exist because nobody is old enough to sign a contract.
 

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Dreiko said:
I think people call hebophellia something-rape because it's so frowned upon that they wish to use the sort of crime label in order to get the people who commit it the maximum amount of hate but no, I definitely don't think it's rape when something can be a loving marriage in one country (first hand experience on that front since my parents hit it off at ages 13 and 19 and they were married for over 25 years lol) and the same exact act is considered rape in another. If you think of it, when you qualify rape as statutory that is one way of admitting it to be a different type of thing than regular rape in the first place, so I'm fine with even considering it rape but different from normal usual rape, which is the type of rape we're discussing here.


And I don't think rape culture is anything to do with how you define rape, that's just a legal and logical argument. Rape culture is having positive feelings about these acts, not having negative feelings supportive of their criminalization but just wanting to classify them accurately.


I mean, if this is rape culture, you kinda neuter the term because you liken it to actual roaming rape gangs in the Congo which is who actually has a rape culture and sees women as tools for their enjoyment. And I'm supposedly the one who likes being over-dramatic apparently lol.
Oh my god, I am seeing honest to god pedophilia apologism. And your parents were like that? That...explains a lot. think it can be loving? I...wait, why did you bring this up when we were quite specifically talking about incest? ...Is there something you want to tell us? Sorry, but such a relationship is inherently unbalanced. The concept of age of consent exists for a reason, because we as a collective society decided that there are points where we needed to decidie when a person was too young to consent to having sex. Guess which countries think 13 is ok? Burkina Faso, Comoros, Niger, Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, and Japan (except not really for Japan. Federally prefectures are ALLOWED to make the age of consent 13, but none of them actually did so and there's not a place in Japan where a preceture went for an age lower than 16) so if your parents were sexually active during the first year of their relationship, it would've been considered statutory rape in every country in the world except 4 3rd world ones. Gives things perspective, don't it? And no, statutory rape exists for a damn good reason, because people below the age of consent cannot adequately give consent. Also because we as a society decided that people who run around having sex with people who are pre-pubescent are most likely sexual predators, because they'd be having sex with adults if they weren't. So hopefully your parents weren't sexually active for the first three years of their relationship, otherwise, your dad was one hell of a creep.

Once we have reached the realm of "hebophellia, aka, sex with 11-14 year olds isn't rape" then no, we are very firmly in the realm of rape culture as there is not a single country on Earth who thinks fucking an eleven-year-old should be legal. And I'll remind you again, we were talking about incest.

Earlier in the thread I said you struck me as the type of person who didn't consider it rape unless it was violent (something that really adds to rape culture here in the states). Your comment on the Congo only further solidifies that point for me. Widen your perspectives a bit, will you? Any situation where a person is forced into sex against their will or where they cannot reliably give consent And do you think there aren't people in the first world who don't view women as tools for their enjoyment? Do you look at the links Jag posts and think that's a phenomenon that only exists in third world countries? It's a mindset that's alive and well in the land of the rising sun, and it'd be nice if you stopped sweeping it under the rug.
 

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altnameJag said:
...Man, if a year of probation and a few thousand euro fine is all straight up violent rapists in Finland get as punishment, y'all don't need to worry about anybody taking rape *less* seriously by expanding its definition. Like, that kind of sentencing is a straight up scandal most other places.
I got inspired and looked it up to jot my memory. Non-violent (and no helplessness or lack of consciousness) rape was added in 2014... The minimum sentence is four months. I guess my little worries are five years late.

If you don't mind me saying it, this thread has become rather ghastly. Even for me, the radical centrist firmly in between erttheking and Dreiko.
 

gyrobot_v1legacy

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McElroy said:
altnameJag said:
...Man, if a year of probation and a few thousand euro fine is all straight up violent rapists in Finland get as punishment, y'all don't need to worry about anybody taking rape *less* seriously by expanding its definition. Like, that kind of sentencing is a straight up scandal most other places.
I got inspired and looked it up to jot my memory. Non-violent (and no helplessness or lack of consciousness) rape was added in 2014... The minimum sentence is four months. I guess my little worries are five years late.

If you don't mind me saying it, this thread has become rather ghastly. Even for me, the radical centrist firmly in between erttheking and Dreiko.
Personally I knew the thread became a shitstorm because there are no other arguments we turn to beyond the age one. Dreiko directing at the heat Pete Davison was going to get him and relying on circular logic to tire out the other and errtheking being unable to break the circle.
 

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gyrobot said:
McElroy said:
altnameJag said:
...Man, if a year of probation and a few thousand euro fine is all straight up violent rapists in Finland get as punishment, y'all don't need to worry about anybody taking rape *less* seriously by expanding its definition. Like, that kind of sentencing is a straight up scandal most other places.
I got inspired and looked it up to jot my memory. Non-violent (and no helplessness or lack of consciousness) rape was added in 2014... The minimum sentence is four months. I guess my little worries are five years late.

If you don't mind me saying it, this thread has become rather ghastly. Even for me, the radical centrist firmly in between erttheking and Dreiko.
Personally I knew the thread became a shitstorm because there are no other arguments we turn to beyond the age one. Dreiko directing at the heat Pete Davison was going to get him and relying on circular logic to tire out the other and errtheking being unable to break the circle.
I can't believe how derailed this thread has gotten. Sorry gyrobot. My only suggestion is if you do a topic similar to this to lay down some ground rules, and bring in the moderators if no ones listening.

erttheking, as much like you and respect you, you're never gonna win with Dreiko. From what I've seen, he will do anything to defend behavior this is knowingly wrong. He's not worth arguing with or getting in to essay long debates. I've seen y'all do this multiple times.

Dreiko.......there are plenty of stuff I wish I had not read, because now I want nothing to do with you. If you are ever on a topic I created, please be on point or don't bother responding. I prefer if you didn't. What you typed up can't be ignored.
 

gyrobot_v1legacy

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CoCage said:
gyrobot said:
McElroy said:
altnameJag said:
...Man, if a year of probation and a few thousand euro fine is all straight up violent rapists in Finland get as punishment, y'all don't need to worry about anybody taking rape *less* seriously by expanding its definition. Like, that kind of sentencing is a straight up scandal most other places.
I got inspired and looked it up to jot my memory. Non-violent (and no helplessness or lack of consciousness) rape was added in 2014... The minimum sentence is four months. I guess my little worries are five years late.

If you don't mind me saying it, this thread has become rather ghastly. Even for me, the radical centrist firmly in between erttheking and Dreiko.
Personally I knew the thread became a shitstorm because there are no other arguments we turn to beyond the age one. Dreiko directing at the heat Pete Davison was going to get him and relying on circular logic to tire out the other and errtheking being unable to break the circle.
I can't believe how derailed this thread has gotten. Sorry gyrobot. My only suggestion is if you do a topic similar to this to lay down some ground rules, and bring in the moderators if no ones listening.

erttheking, as much like you and respect you, you're never gonna win with Dreiko. From what I've seen, he will do anything to defend behavior this is knowingly wrong. He's not worth arguing with or getting in to essay long debates. I've seen y'all do this multiple times.

Dreiko.......there are plenty of stuff I wish I had not read, because now I want nothing to do with you. If you are ever on a topic I created, please be on point or don't bother responding. I prefer if you didn't. What you typed up can't be ignored.
Thanks for the input cocage. I can sympathize with Dreiko but I feel any debate involving extremely niche Japanese games will bring out an extremely defensive users no matter where you who would harass and ratio you to oblivion if you. I will keep this in mind when I make another topic to keep it from being derailed. No wonder sites like resetera simply shut debates like this down and ban the creepy posters.

As for Errtheking, I do side with you on this argument but stayed out of it because of my past sympathies for niche stuff from Japan that these days can no longer stomach because of the toxic fanbase that defends the worst points about the game. Still would have liked to see you stayed on the topic if O'Reilly from Nintendo Life was right for insulting Dreiko and Davison's tastes.

And Dreiko, from here on out I want you stay on topic in this debate or stay out of it if you cannot. We have given you an opportunity to debate here that most sites will simply give you the boot for. I get Pete Davison has his fans and probably includes you. But if you cannot be a good representative as seen here, I would rather not have further articles from Moegamer or similar subjects like this being posted. I used to believe how personals opinion was shaped by the opinions of others as funny but now I see their point and fully agree on it. So stay on topic or stay out.
 

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New article from Pete Davison who goes on his usual tired spiel that got him blacklisted from journalism.

https://moegamer.net/2019/11/14/bullet-girls-phantasia-the-art-of-erotica/

Wow, a 3000 word essay on a budget Japan only game with Asian English options. If you need an essay to argue for erotica in gaming instead of realizing how limp wristed Japanese is with sexual content that they have to use flowerly language to hide it.

The west is not afraid of sex, they are tired of an audience who has a teenager's mentality of what sex and erotic content is supposed to be with an myopic view of sexual content where only girls are featured instead of a pansexual approach towards it like Cockworks did.
 

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gyrobot said:
New article from Pete Davison who goes on his usual tired spiel that got him blacklisted from journalism.

https://moegamer.net/2019/11/14/bullet-girls-phantasia-the-art-of-erotica/

Wow, a 3000 word essay on a budget Japan only game with Asian English options. If you need an essay to argue for erotica in gaming instead of realizing how limp wristed Japanese is with sexual content that they have to use flowerly language to hide it.

The west is not afraid of sex, they are tired of an audience who has a teenager's mentality of what sex and erotic content is supposed to be with an myopic view of sexual content where only girls are featured instead of a pansexual approach towards it like Cockworks did.
But this Pete dude, his arguments are rationalizations that leave you with nothing else to say but YIKES!
 

gyrobot_v1legacy

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I agree, rationalization for bad games is a common trait found among weebs who support compile heart and low quality Japanese. Like they still believe Japanese Games are being persecuted purely for sexual content.
 

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Ok I have read some interesting points here. Dreiko just wow uhm yeah so the hell and cut to the chase that was a lot of fucked up shit you defended and swept under the rug. Errtheking got to know when to just dip it aint worth it, its just not.

But I want to know about the Compile Hearts situation. Is it true that Sony did not just told him no sexy flexy but even offered a compromise to make the sexy high schoolers sexy college students and buddy was like no "my artistic vision won't allow it". Cause if that is the case certain sections of the internet omitted that party really hard to go off on SJWs and people ironically not looking at all the facts.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Jarrito3001 said:
But I want to know about the Compile Hearts situation. Is it true that Sony did not just told him no sexy flexy but even offered a compromise to make the sexy high schoolers sexy college students and buddy was like no "my artistic vision won't allow it". Cause if that is the case certain sections of the internet omitted that party really hard to go off on SJWs and people ironically not looking at all the facts.
The "just use a time skip" bit is honestly just me spitballing an idea I had, not an actual Sony-approved compromise plan. I'd be able to make a better argument if I could point to a straight up Gal Gun/Senran Kagura/Gun Gun Pixies style ecchi game that had exclusively adult characters, but far as I know there just *aren't* any. And considering what unacceptable censorship (imagine the world's largest air quotes) looks like, how much more horny did this batch of 14 to 18 year olds need to be? http://kjganime.com/character.html

But like, look at some of the stuff western games with older characters can get up to. Look at horny Dark Souls Code Vein.
 

Jarrito3002

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altnameJag said:
Jarrito3001 said:
But I want to know about the Compile Hearts situation. Is it true that Sony did not just told him no sexy flexy but even offered a compromise to make the sexy high schoolers sexy college students and buddy was like no "my artistic vision won't allow it". Cause if that is the case certain sections of the internet omitted that party really hard to go off on SJWs and people ironically not looking at all the facts.
The "just use a time skip" bit is honestly just me spitballing an idea I had, not an actual Sony-approved compromise plan. I'd be able to make a better argument if I could point to a straight up Gal Gun/Senran Kagura/Gun Gun Pixies style ecchi game that had exclusively adult characters, but far as I know there just *aren't* any. And considering what unacceptable censorship (imagine the world's largest air quotes) looks like, how much more horny did this batch of 14 to 18 year olds need to be? http://kjganime.com/character.html

But like, look at some of the stuff western games with older characters can get up to. Look at horny Dark Souls Code Vein.
Its crazy its used to not bother cause I used to be in high school so did not think much of it. Then I looked around and was like damn that is really all there is. Like you may get the occassional milf and mom by accident but its like lewding college age and above just does not work I guess.

Like I pointed out one time that how the Pokemon series has more hot actual milfs than say Dead or Alive where outside the 1000 year old Tengu which is doesn't count everyone knows it the 26 year old is pretty much treated as a grandma.

Question how is Code Vein its decisive but animu Dark Souls might be up my ally. Does it lewd grown ups or does it just continue the high schooling.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Jarrito3001 said:
Its crazy its used to not bother cause I used to be in high school so did not think much of it. Then I looked around and was like damn that is really all there is. Like you may get the occassional milf and mom by accident but its like lewding college age and above just does not work I guess.

Like I pointed out one time that how the Pokemon series has more hot actual milfs than say Dead or Alive where outside the 1000 year old Tengu which is doesn't count everyone knows it the 26 year old is pretty much treated as a grandma.

Question how is Code Vein its decisive but animu Dark Souls might be up my ally. Does it lewd grown ups or does it just continue the high schooling.
Code Vein is all vampires, but far as I know only like, 1 dude and 1 gal got vamped before adulthood, and they aren't particularly sexed up. Past that, it's all adults. Which makes sense, what with it involving a war.
Mechanics wise it's a little more dodge focused than Bloodborne, and enemies have excellent tracking and hit like a truck, so everything's a bit more of a glass cannon. It's almost an action game like DMC but with a stamina meter.
 

gyrobot_v1legacy

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And because Pete made a sore point about it. Nintendo Life decided to let him do a freelance review for a budget fanservice escape game and view it as some great victory over Pat and his negative reviews of niche Japanese titles

https://www.nintendolife.com/reviews/switch-eshop/prison_princess

Cue his fanbase of of weebs calling it a victory over a father of children who views reviewing games as work. I am more agitated at his fanbase than him right now. It shows that if you put your mind behind ranting about the current stable of of press for not giving a fanservice laden title a fair shake you can hold them hostage.
 

CaitSeith

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gyrobot said:
And because Pete made a sore point about it. Nintendo Life decided to let him do a freelance review for a budget fanservice escape game and view it as some great victory over Pat and his negative reviews of niche Japanese titles

https://www.nintendolife.com/reviews/switch-eshop/prison_princess

Cue his fanbase of of weebs calling it a victory over a father of children who views reviewing games as work. I am more agitated at his fanbase than him right now. It shows that if you put your mind behind ranting about the current stable of of press for not giving a fanservice laden title a fair shake you can hold them hostage.
Meh! Maybe this way he'll get over his persecution complex.
 

gyrobot_v1legacy

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If I could encourage my rabid fanbase who got into a hissy fit in return for a good review. I would gladly become a freelancer writing about obscure japanese games. This encourages a toxic response from the audie ce instead of realizing their bad tastes and getting better ones