Let's prove movie bob wrong : derive a moral from American Sniper

the_dramatica

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When on his final mission, Chris Kyle says that only one enemy sniper can fire over 1,000 yards. His commander says "He is whoever you want him to be."

Other sources than the movie say that it was a man standing out in the open with an rpg, not a sniper hiding in cover.

Therefore the moral is that war will eventually devour the mind of any man.

Well, that's my piss poor shot. Let's see what you guys have.
 

Lilani

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I haven't seen the movie, but the moral which I've derived from it at this point is that American patriotism is both extremely easy to cash in on, and extremely happy to be cashed in upon.
 

tippy2k2

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Seriously, did everyone see a different movie than I did? I keep seeing people call it "Military Propaganda" and "American Propaganda" and that it glorifies soldiers and war.

You know what I saw when I saw American Sniper: An ANTI-War Movie. Yes....Anti-War

Chris Kyle kills a kid, repeatedly abandons his wife when she BEGS him to stay, clearly has some anger issues crop up from the PTSD (as well as regular old PTSD), and is eventually killed after finally conquering his own demons by another veteran who was still fighting his off.

This movie is about the man Chris Kyle and the absolute devastation the war had on his mind and spirit. The only thing I thought of at the end of the movie was "how can we help other veterans with the toll that war has had on them?".
 

Lilani

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tippy2k2 said:
Seriously, did everyone see a different movie than I did? I keep seeing people call it "Military Propaganda" and "American Propaganda" and that it glorifies soldiers and war.

You know what I saw when I saw American Sniper: An ANTI-War Movie. Yes....Anti-War

Chris Kyle kills a kid, repeatedly abandons his wife when she BEGS him to stay, clearly has some anger issues crop up from the PTSD (as well as regular old PTSD), and is eventually killed after finally conquering his own demons by another veteran who was still fighting his off.

This movie is about the man Chris Kyle and the absolute devastation the war had on his mind and spirit. The only thing I thought of at the end of the movie was "how can we help other veterans with the toll that war has had on them?".
At least in my neck of the woods (Midwest) nobody talks about the film that way. They say it's a great film about soldiers and patriotism and heroes and all that, all the same reactions I hear from typical patriotic films. Perhaps some people are just too determined to see war painted in a positive light, they can't tell when the opposite is staring them in the face.
 

tippy2k2

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Lilani said:
At least in my neck of the woods (Midwest) nobody talks about the film that way. They say it's a great film about soldiers and patriotism and heroes and all that, all the same reactions I hear from typical patriotic films. Perhaps some people are just too determined to see war painted in a positive light, they can't tell when the opposite is staring them in the face.
That's all I keep seeing too and it absolutely baffles me how people could possibly see this film and think "You know what, fuck Arabs! This is 'MERICA, The greatest God damn country in the world! *Cue this song [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruNrdmjcNTc]

Chris Kyle had his brain shattered by his experiences. In fact, my guess is this is the same exact kind of thing people see when they talk about how awesome Tony Montana is and how they want to be just like him in Scarface. (Do I need Scarface spoilers? Probably not but SF spoilers) All people remember is the cool one-liners and awesome actions he takes; everyone forgets that Montana dies an incredibly bloody and brutal end after forcing everyone that loves him away from him with his increasingly erratic behavior...

I suppose there's a chance that I'M the wrong one here but Clint Eastwood seems waaaaay too smart of a director to have such a simple message (the simple message being "America; Fuck Yeah" that is). I'd like to think that he was just a little too subtle making this one.

EDIT: Speak of the devil; that's what I figured, thanks for the link mystic (right below me)
 

MysticSlayer

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tippy2k2 said:
An ANTI-War Movie. Yes....Anti-War
From what I've read, that's actually how the film was supposed to be seen [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/26/clint-eastwood-american-sniper-anti-war_n_6547068.html].
 

Armadox

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I've been considering this topic, and I have a question. Who was it made for? The topic title depicts that it's necessary to prove Bob Chipman wrong, which creates an instant bias in the subject at hand. You're not looking for diverse ideas on the topic, but simply to justify your desire to be contrary to a particular person's personal opinion.

I'm not sure this was meant to be a loaded question, but I don't think anyone's answer is going to satisfy the original topic's desires as they are listed.

I'm less curious if a war movie has a moral point, as it's a war movie and thus any moral depictions will come from the person's personal beliefs, history, and ideologies that watch it. Everyone can see it, and come away with something else.

No, I'm now more interested in your personal interest in defending this movie. Why is it important to "prove Movie Bob wrong"? How will you be better off if you find you're right, and how will this effect your life? How do you personally gain from this experience?

When creating an "us vs. them" standpoint as this is meant to, what middle ground do you think can be met?

An opinion is a dime a dozen, but how you come to that opinion and how it effects you can grant you a deeper understanding on why you require gratification when it comes to these discussions..[footnote] Also, I kinda ended up skipping a vast half of this one after I found out that it was in no means a movie meant for me. Sorry...[/footnote]
 

Arctic Werewolf

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Lilani said:
I haven't seen the movie, but the moral which I've derived from it at this point is that American patriotism is both extremely easy to cash in on...
Is that really fair to say about a movie you haven't seen? Maybe it's really good. Maybe it would convince you to see things in a new light you hadn't even considered. Eastwood is a talented director and no stranger to liberal themes. We're not talking about Michael Bay, here. I trust Eastwood to make a movie more than I trust Mr. Chipman to criticize one particularly if sensitive and nuanced political and social issues are involved.

But I haven't seen it, either. You may well be right. I would not really have been interested in a movie like this without knowing anything about it. But with Eastwood at the helm, and having read about the controversy, I'm very interested to go see what's up.

Oh, and I read Michael Moore doesn't like it? That probably means it's really good.
 

murrow

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Way, American Sniper is a Clint Eastwood movie? God damn it, I have to see it now. I was planning on skipping it due to the horribly generic title and even more generic war movie vibe. But Eastwood is one of my favourite American directors and I was dying for another of his flicks.

Thank you, Escapist forumites! You made my day!
 

Mezahmay

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tippy2k2 said:
Lilani said:
At least in my neck of the woods (Midwest) nobody talks about the film that way. They say it's a great film about soldiers and patriotism and heroes and all that, all the same reactions I hear from typical patriotic films. Perhaps some people are just too determined to see war painted in a positive light, they can't tell when the opposite is staring them in the face.
That's all I keep seeing too and it absolutely baffles me how people could possibly see this film and think "You know what, fuck Arabs! This is 'MERICA, The greatest God damn country in the world! *Cue this song [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruNrdmjcNTc]
This reminds me of the criticism leveled at The Wolf of Wall Street's alleged desirable portrayal the hedonist lifestyle of a when the main character was clearly doing despicable things. I'm pretty sure Lilani is on to something with the whole people just see what they want to see thing based on their expectations and various biases.
 

Teoes

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What would doing so accomplish? Say you "prove him wrong" on this, so far as you can then say his opinion is invalid.. then what?
 

psijac

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Movie Bob review of Surrogate with Bruce Willis convinced me to go see it. And that movie was terrible. Proving Movie Bob wrong is a low bar to set. Not just because opinion is inherently subjective, he's also just wrong a lot of the time. Remember when he said PC Gaming was dead?



Lilani said:
I haven't seen the movie, but the moral which I've derived from it at this point is that American patriotism is both extremely easy to cash in on, and extremely happy to be cashed in upon.
Indeed the movie is set to make 200 million just in the month of January. Which would be a record at half that.

What's keeping you from seeing the movie?

My take away is 2 fold. 1. America is not doing enough to take care of the people they send into harms way. Some come back with broken bodies and minds.

2. The people who fightin these wars for us are not the monstrous murders The MSNBC wants them to be. They are human beings with human flaws.

Point 2 is why the left hates this movie. If the people who fought in Iraq were not immoral thugs, then maybe it wasn't an immorality war to fight, then maybe Bush was right. The absolute slippery-est of slopes but none the less it's out there.

Wat checkout the movie Jarhead instead. Its like American sniper in Reverse. Jake Gyllenhaal is great in it.
 

PsychicTaco115

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One moral is to NEVER have a fake baby be seen close up because then the Uncanny Valley starts taking effect

Other than that, I haven't seen the movie but by golly, I can still make inferences on it!

Umm...

Fine, I won't give my super important opinion!
 

LostPause

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tippy2k2 said:
Chris Kyle had his brain shattered by his experiences.
That conclusion might be a bit stretched to take from the movie itself, but less so from real life. In fact, I get the impression that some critics wish the movie had made more of the ironic tragedy that Chris was killed while trying to help a PTSD-suffering fellow veteran with a trip to a shooting range. The movie's tone would have been almost completely shifted if that course of events had been filmed rather than described with a subtitle and followed by footage of crowd's mourning him. If more had been made of his comparatively unheroic and senseless death it certainly would have made a much clearer point about the far-reaching consequences of the military mentality and experiences.

The film has many narrative similarities to the anti-war film Hurt Locker, though that firmly stood on the other side of the fence when it came to characterising the self-destructive recklessness of its 'hero'. I get the impression that some critics aren't going to be happy with any war film that doesn't clearly demonstrate that war isn't heroic and that being a soldier isn't an awful career choice. While it's true that war is more often unheroic and traumatising than not and soldiers aren't usually the most mentally stable characters, often through necessity, this doesn't change the fact that Chris Kyle was a dedicated American who did some truly exceptional acts.

It's clear Eastwood wasn't interested in delving into the guy's obvious issues, such as his self-aggrandising ego and his apparent need to play up to his own 'legend'. To be fair, biopics of recently dead figures tend to gloss over the negative traits of their heroes, unless they make for a more effective narrative arc. In the end, I'd argue that Eastwood did succumb a little too much to the temptation to lionize his subject but that this allowed him to make a film more suited to his own skills, particularly since he wasn't making a documentary.
 

hermes

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tippy2k2 said:
Seriously, did everyone see a different movie than I did? I keep seeing people call it "Military Propaganda" and "American Propaganda" and that it glorifies soldiers and war.

You know what I saw when I saw American Sniper: An ANTI-War Movie. Yes....Anti-War

Chris Kyle kills a kid, repeatedly abandons his wife when she BEGS him to stay, clearly has some anger issues crop up from the PTSD (as well as regular old PTSD), and is eventually killed after finally conquering his own demons by another veteran who was still fighting his off.

This movie is about the man Chris Kyle and the absolute devastation the war had on his mind and spirit. The only thing I thought of at the end of the movie was "how can we help other veterans with the toll that war has had on them?".
Which leads to the quote by Truffaut, who declared that "there is no such thing as an anti-war film, because war makes for exciting spectacle". I don't completely agree with the statement, because I think there are some good anti-war films, but most of them don't focus exclusively on the soldiers. Once you do, it because more confusing (remember, Fullmetal Jacket, Private Ryan and First Blood were meant as anti-war movies, yet many people don't see them that way)

It also brings the issue of movies like Fight Club, Wolf of Wall Street, Scarface and The Godfather, which presented their protagonists as extremely flawed who ended up even worst, yet they make them so sympathetic throughout the film (and the downward journey so much fun) that people wanted to imitate them.

I haven't seen the movie (yet), but it seems to be one of those movies people feel reinforces their previous stance, either anti or pro war. Each gets the moral that they want validated... Eastwood said he didn't want to make it political, but that is pretty much impossible given the subject.

And about proving Bob wrong, I don't need to get so current. He liked 2012 and Sucker Punch, and consider them study cases for narrative symbolism and photographic composition, so he can be wrong.
 

Arctic Werewolf

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hermes200 said:
Which leads to the quote by Truffaut, who declared that "there is no such thing as an anti-war film, because war makes for exciting spectacle". I don't completely agree with the statement, because I think there are some good anti-war films, but most of them don't focus exclusively on the soldiers. Once you do, it because more confusing (remember, Fullmetal Jacket, Private Ryan and First Blood were meant as anti-war movies, yet many people don't see them that way)

It also brings the issue of movies like Fight Club, Wolf of Wall Street, Scarface and The Godfather, which presented their protagonists as extremely flawed who ended up even worst, yet they make them so sympathetic throughout the film (and the downward journey so much fun) that people wanted to imitate them.

I haven't seen the movie (yet), but it seems to be one of those movies people feel reinforces their previous stance, either anti or pro war. Each gets the moral that they want validated... Eastwood said he didn't want to make it political, but that is pretty much impossible given the subject.
A good point, it is difficult to walk that line. But I'm not sure that is such a bad thing, really. The effort has produced some very good films and I think part of the reason is how they struggle with themselves. I like Platoon just fine, but for me Full Metal Jacket is a more interesting, entertaining and lasting film. Films like Patton are great precisely because they walk that line between lionizing and demonizing war, generals and soldiers. Some people gravitate toward one or the other. But for me, the tension between the two is drama on a biblical scale.

TL;DR I am fine with this.
 

hermes

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Arctic Werewolf said:
hermes200 said:
Which leads to the quote by Truffaut, who declared that "there is no such thing as an anti-war film, because war makes for exciting spectacle". I don't completely agree with the statement, because I think there are some good anti-war films, but most of them don't focus exclusively on the soldiers. Once you do, it because more confusing (remember, Fullmetal Jacket, Private Ryan and First Blood were meant as anti-war movies, yet many people don't see them that way)

It also brings the issue of movies like Fight Club, Wolf of Wall Street, Scarface and The Godfather, which presented their protagonists as extremely flawed who ended up even worst, yet they make them so sympathetic throughout the film (and the downward journey so much fun) that people wanted to imitate them.

I haven't seen the movie (yet), but it seems to be one of those movies people feel reinforces their previous stance, either anti or pro war. Each gets the moral that they want validated... Eastwood said he didn't want to make it political, but that is pretty much impossible given the subject.
A good point, it is difficult to walk that line. But I'm not sure that is such a bad thing, really. The effort has produced some very good films and I think part of the reason is how they struggle with themselves. I like Platoon just fine, but for me Full Metal Jacket is a more interesting, entertaining and lasting film. Films like Patton are great precisely because they walk that line between lionizing and demonizing war, generals and soldiers. Some people gravitate toward one or the other. But for me, the tension between the two is drama on a biblical scale.

TL;DR I am fine with this.
Of course. The quote from Truffaut doesn't mean they should stop trying. Just that many of those movies (like American Sniper here), tends to make people focus on some aspects of it. I.E., those with a leaning against wars, will focus on the PTSD and see it as an antiwar message, those with a leaning in favor of wars (or those expecting just an action thrill), will focus on other aspects and see the movie as prowar. The only exception are those that make it fairly obvious their stance and thus throw subtlety out the window (Grave of the Fireflies vs Rambo III)
 

the_dramatica

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tippy2k2 said:
That's all I keep seeing too and it absolutely baffles me how people could possibly see this film and think "You know what, fuck Arabs! This is 'MERICA, The greatest God damn country in the world! *Cue this song [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruNrdmjcNTc])
I couldn't stop thinking of this song

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhnUgAaea4M

It especially played through my head in the scene just after he landed the 2,100 yard shot. The movie tried to create tension by throwing lets of enemies at kyle but they where just mowed down like grass. It was p cheesy.

psijac said:
Wat checkout the movie Jarhead instead. Its like American sniper in Reverse. Jake Gyllenhaal is great in it.
Yes, loved jarhead

It's by far my favorite movie

Boris Goodenough said:
I had it the exact same way, because I was sitting on the tip of my seat when the kid picked up the RPG...
To be fair that was the most immersive scene in the movie, even though Chris Kyle's spotter didn't seem to give a fuck.

Teoes said:
What would doing so accomplish? Say you "prove him wrong" on this, so far as you can then say his opinion is invalid.. then what?
We get some mental exercise and a discussion on the topic.

Arctic Werewolf said:
I like Platoon just fine, but for me Full Metal Jacket is a more interesting, entertaining and lasting film. Films like Patton are great precisely because they walk that line between lionizing and demonizing war, generals and soldiers. Some people gravitate toward one or the other. But for me, the tension between the two is drama on a biblical scale.TL;DR I am fine with this.
Well FMJ is anti-war, clear and cut. It just so happens that the first part of the movie is more remembered than the second part. Platoon is actually much more on the edge, since the town they shot up ended up exploding from ammunition deposits.
 

Boris Goodenough

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tippy2k2 said:
Seriously, did everyone see a different movie than I did? I keep seeing people call it "Military Propaganda" and "American Propaganda" and that it glorifies soldiers and war.

You know what I saw when I saw American Sniper: An ANTI-War Movie. Yes....Anti-War

Chris Kyle kills a kid, repeatedly abandons his wife when she BEGS him to stay, clearly has some anger issues crop up from the PTSD (as well as regular old PTSD), and is eventually killed after finally conquering his own demons by another veteran who was still fighting his off.

This movie is about the man Chris Kyle and the absolute devastation the war had on his mind and spirit. The only thing I thought of at the end of the movie was "how can we help other veterans with the toll that war has had on them?".
I had it the exact same way, because I was sitting on the tip of my seat when the kid picked up the RPG...
 

DudeistBelieve

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tippy2k2 said:
Seriously, did everyone see a different movie than I did? I keep seeing people call it "Military Propaganda" and "American Propaganda" and that it glorifies soldiers and war.

You know what I saw when I saw American Sniper: An ANTI-War Movie. Yes....Anti-War

Chris Kyle kills a kid, repeatedly abandons his wife when she BEGS him to stay, clearly has some anger issues crop up from the PTSD (as well as regular old PTSD), and is eventually killed after finally conquering his own demons by another veteran who was still fighting his off.

This movie is about the man Chris Kyle and the absolute devastation the war had on his mind and spirit. The only thing I thought of at the end of the movie was "how can we help other veterans with the toll that war has had on them?".
This.

I haven't even seen the movie, but just based on the trailer I thought it was clearly showing the price war takes on the human soul.

I mean just the scene of the guy at the bar, telling his wife he's been home for a while but that he's not coming home because he's not ready. It's clear that, how did Moviebob call it? "Shooting the brown people" has seriously fucked with his head.

Again, just off the trailers it looked to me like a very clear ANTI-War film.