Let's prove movie bob wrong : derive a moral from American Sniper

tippy2k2

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Boris Goodenough said:
I had it the exact same way, because I was sitting on the tip of my seat when the kid picked up the RPG...
That was an excellent scene (although I find it so weird that they had the spotter in the background look like he was bored out of his skull...someone probably should have let that guy know filming started) but listening to Kyle beg the kid to put the damn rocket down had me on edge.
I thought for sure he was going to put a bullet in the kids back. It was a very nice turning point for Kyle as he let go of the trigger and seemed to be that first step he needed to gain his humanity back. I was still tense even afterwards though because I thought when the kid got the RPG up, he may still end up firing the damn thing when Kyle chose not to fire...although there was just the Humvee over there so maybe Kyle was more willing to let the risk play out since it wouldn't kill an American soldier if he chose wrong

SaneAmongInsane said:
I mean just the scene of the guy at the bar, telling his wife he's been home for a while but that he's not coming home because he's not ready. It's clear that, how did Moviebob call it? "Shooting the brown people" has seriously fucked with his head.
Jeez...you know what, I didn't even think about that too but that's an excellent point. I think I was distracted at that scene because MILD SPOILER: (in real life), that is when Chris Kyle "allegedly" punches Jesse Ventura in the mouth for talking trash about the SEALS but with the ongoing court case and whatnot happening, it was probably a good call by Eastwood to let that one part of the book go...
 

tippy2k2

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the_dramatica said:
tippy2k2 said:
That's all I keep seeing too and it absolutely baffles me how people could possibly see this film and think "You know what, fuck Arabs! This is 'MERICA, The greatest God damn country in the world! *Cue this song [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruNrdmjcNTc])
I couldn't stop thinking of this song

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhnUgAaea4M

It especially played through my head in the scene just after he landed the 2,100 yard shot. The movie tried to create tension by throwing lets of enemies at kyle but they where just mowed down like grass. It was p cheesy.
Double post; my bad, I got three quotes in my system in a row and I missed yours

Even that part though I was perfectly fine with. I think one thing the movie didn't show at all and it kind of hurt it was just how well trained these guys were. Every one of those men on that rooftop were trained Navy Seals; some of the best trained soldiers in the world. They had the high ground, they had the cover, and the men attacking them had little to no cover on the streets with little to no training. Of course the Seals are going to mow them down like grass...
 

DudeistBelieve

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tippy2k2 said:
Boris Goodenough said:
I had it the exact same way, because I was sitting on the tip of my seat when the kid picked up the RPG...
That was an excellent scene (although I find it so weird that they had the spotter in the background look like he was bored out of his skull...someone probably should have let that guy know filming started) but listening to Kyle beg the kid to put the damn rocket down had me on edge.
I thought for sure he was going to put a bullet in the kids back. It was a very nice turning point for Kyle as he let go of the trigger and seemed to be that first step he needed to gain his humanity back. I was still tense even afterwards though because I thought when the kid got the RPG up, he may still end up firing the damn thing when Kyle chose not to fire...although there was just the Humvee over there so maybe Kyle was more willing to let the risk play out since it wouldn't kill an American soldier if he chose wrong

SaneAmongInsane said:
I mean just the scene of the guy at the bar, telling his wife he's been home for a while but that he's not coming home because he's not ready. It's clear that, how did Moviebob call it? "Shooting the brown people" has seriously fucked with his head.
Jeez...you know what, I didn't even think about that too but that's an excellent point. I think I was distracted at that scene because MILD SPOILER: (in real life), that is when Chris Kyle "allegedly" punches Jesse Ventura in the mouth for talking trash about the SEALS but with the ongoing court case and whatnot happening, it was probably a good call by Eastwood to let that one part of the book go...
I think that court case is over, Jesse won. He proved he wasn't even anywhere near the bar in question when it happened.

Though if Eastwood had put it in, I totally would of saw the movie just to see someone performing as The Body
 

Kinokohatake

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I haven't seen it, and most likely will see it on netflix or maybe tv. My question is did they put the scenes in the movie with him supposedly killing dozens of people in New Orleans or shooting the two car jackers at the gas station and disposing of their bodies?
 

tippy2k2

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SaneAmongInsane said:
I think that court case is over, Jesse won. He proved he wasn't even anywhere near the bar in question when it happened.

Though if Eastwood had put it in, I totally would of saw the movie just to see someone performing as The Body
I knew Jesse won but I didn't know the hows or whys (I didn't pay any attention to the case; I can't stand Jesse Ventura). During that scene, all I could think about was listening for Ventura in the background to say something rather than paying attention to the movie so I kind of missed the emotional impact I was supposed to be listening to :)

Thomas Guy said:
I haven't seen it, and most likely will see it on netflix or maybe tv. My question is did they put the scenes in the movie with him supposedly killing dozens of people in New Orleans or shooting the two car jackers at the gas station and disposing of their bodies?
No they did not
 

Tiger King

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tippy2k2 said:
Seriously, did everyone see a different movie than I did? I keep seeing people call it "Military Propaganda" and "American Propaganda" and that it glorifies soldiers and war.

You know what I saw when I saw American Sniper: An ANTI-War Movie. Yes....Anti-War

Chris Kyle kills a kid, repeatedly abandons his wife when she BEGS him to stay, clearly has some anger issues crop up from the PTSD (as well as regular old PTSD), and is eventually killed after finally conquering his own demons by another veteran who was still fighting his off.

This movie is about the man Chris Kyle and the absolute devastation the war had on his mind and spirit. The only thing I thought of at the end of the movie was "how can we help other veterans with the toll that war has had on them?".
Just watched the film and what you have said tippy is pretty much what I took away from it.
I've been thinking about some of the criticisms of the film now, and I recall one in particular where the film was likened to the scene in 'inglorious bastards' where the German sniper kills lots of American troops.
There are a few scenes where a number of terrorists are killed with, what I guess you would say is, cold efficiency
But then this guy was credited with over 160 kills. Even then I feel the comparison was a bit harsh.

I dunno, perhaps some people saw nothing but MERICA! not for me though.

As for morals.......I dunno, war is bad?
 

Arctic Werewolf

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the_dramatica said:
Well FMJ is anti-war, clear and cut. It just so happens that the first part of the movie is more remembered than the second part. Platoon is actually much more on the edge, since the town they shot up ended up exploding from ammunition deposits.
I was thinking of the Kubrickian-thought-experiment style of FMJ, which makes it stand out for me, and of course the performance of R. Lee Ermey. And I guess it's been too long since I've seen Platoon. I need to go back and watch some of these before I get any older!
hermes200 said:
Of course. The quote from Truffaut doesn't mean they should stop trying. Just that many of those movies (like American Sniper here), tends to make people focus on some aspects of it. I.E., those with a leaning against wars, will focus on the PTSD and see it as an antiwar message, those with a leaning in favor of wars (or those expecting just an action thrill), will focus on other aspects and see the movie as prowar. The only exception are those that make it fairly obvious their stance and thus throw subtlety out the window (Grave of the Fireflies vs Rambo III)
I gotcha. Very interested to see for myself how American Sniper fits into all this. Even if it was kind of a pro-war movie... I might even be OK with that. I mean hell, I think the man who made Flags of our Fathers and Letters from Iwo Jima has fucking earned it.
 

beastro

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My view for years now is any "Based on a True Story" movies plot or moral should be taken with a ton of salt and enjoyed for the entertainment value. Facts are always twisted to for dramatic license and it's why I ignore most documentaries now as they're increasingly taking the same angle.

It's also the take almost every veteran I know has for movies these days. This one particular they view as a soldiers tall tale that just got turned into movie.

Lilani said:
At least in my neck of the woods (Midwest) nobody talks about the film that way. They say it's a great film about soldiers and patriotism and heroes and all that, all the same reactions I hear from typical patriotic films. Perhaps some people are just too determined to see war painted in a positive light, they can't tell when the opposite is staring them in the face.
How are those things in a war mutually exclusive to a movie being anti-war?

I haven't seen a single US movie that wasn't anti-war that wasn't made to be taken as a light hearted action film.
 

LetalisK

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the_dramatica said:
Therefore the moral is that war will eventually devour the mind of any man.

Well, that's my piss poor shot. Let's see what you guys have.
So you agree with Moviebob, then? Because that was his conclusion as well. His issue with American Sniper was that it would have been a much better documentary than a feature film.
 

Lilani

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beastro said:
Lilani said:
At least in my neck of the woods (Midwest) nobody talks about the film that way. They say it's a great film about soldiers and patriotism and heroes and all that, all the same reactions I hear from typical patriotic films. Perhaps some people are just too determined to see war painted in a positive light, they can't tell when the opposite is staring them in the face.
How are those things in a war mutually exclusive to a movie being anti-war?

I haven't seen a single US movie that wasn't anti-war that wasn't made to be taken as a light hearted action film.
The problem I have is when they begin to romanticize the events of war itself to make the soldiers look either more heroic or more justified in their actions. For example, Michael Bay's Pearl Harbor. The Japanese never deliberately attacked hospitals in Hawaii, yet apparently Pearl Harbor wasn't morally unambiguous for Michael Bay so he plopped a love interest character in a hospital and had it attacked. In fact, the only civilians killed at Pearl Harbor that day were killed by fires started by American anti-air shells. But you'll never catch that movie framing the collateral damage as something caused by friendly fire as well as hostile.

This is the problem I have with US war films. It is very rare for a war to be completely morally unambiguous, yet filmmakers, documentary makers, TV special makers, and everybody else who cashes in on America's patriotic nostalgia always prefer to take the easy route and make sure the conflict is as unambiguous as possible so that the soldiers are elevated from brave people to practically angels on earth. They always want to portray the war as something where the ends always justifies the means--that no matter what we did, it was always justified and always the best choice. I understand that films in general do things like this to drive up the drama and the stakes, but American war films in particular have a way of upping the ante by also driving up the patriotism so as to gloss over the sheer ridiculousness of what's been done to the story with stars and stripes and bombs bursting in air.
 

Zhukov

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tippy2k2 said:
Lilani said:
At least in my neck of the woods (Midwest) nobody talks about the film that way. They say it's a great film about soldiers and patriotism and heroes and all that, all the same reactions I hear from typical patriotic films. Perhaps some people are just too determined to see war painted in a positive light, they can't tell when the opposite is staring them in the face.
That's all I keep seeing too and it absolutely baffles me how people could possibly see this film and think "You know what, fuck Arabs! This is 'MERICA, The greatest God damn country in the world! *Cue this song [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruNrdmjcNTc]
Given the current political climate, the tagline alone ("The deadliest sniper in US history") is enough to nudge impressions in that direction.

Also, I've read that Kyle's family was involved. Or rather, that they threatened to sue if the film showed him in the slightest negative light.

Anyway, preconceptions are a powerful thing.

A person looking for an anti-war message can look at the scenes with his wife and see a theme about war tearing a family apart. A person looking for an pro-war message can see the same scene and get misty eyed over the self sacrifice of a woman understanding that her husband has answered a higher calling.

The first person can watch the PTSD scenes and say, "Ah, so war has ravaged the man's soul. Fuck war!" The second person see the same scenes and say, "Jesus, look what those Arab bastards did to our hero! Fuck Arabs!"

To me it did come across as a bit 'Murica. Not horrendously so, but it was there. I mean, we're talking about a film in which the All American Hero wins a sniper duel with a recurring enemy parkour-ing super-sniper in the face of a sandstorm, then has a climactic shoot-out, before making a dramatic close escape, complete with "take my haaaaand" scene.

Dry, down-to-earth, just-the-facts, neutral filmmaking this is not.
 

tippy2k2

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Zhukov said:
tippy2k2 said:
That's all I keep seeing too and it absolutely baffles me how people could possibly see this film and think "You know what, fuck Arabs! This is 'MERICA, The greatest God damn country in the world! *Cue this song [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruNrdmjcNTc]
Given the current political climate, the tagline alone ("The deadliest sniper in US history") is enough to nudge impressions in that direction.

Also, I've read that Kyle's family was involved. Or rather, that they threatened to sue if the film showed him in the slightest negative light.

Anyway, preconceptions are a powerful thing.

A person looking for an anti-war message can look at the scenes with his wife and see a theme about war tearing a family apart. A person looking for an pro-war message can see the same scene and get misty eyed over the self sacrifice of a woman understanding that her husband has answered a higher calling.

The first person can watch the PTSD scenes and say, "Ah, so war has ravaged the man's soul. Fuck war!" The second person see the same scenes and say, "Jesus, look what those Arab bastards did to our hero! Fuck Arabs!"

To me it did come across as a bit 'Murica. Not horrendously so, but it was there. I mean, we're talking about a film in which the All American Hero wins a sniper duel with a recurring enemy parkour-ing super-sniper in the face of a sandstorm, then has a climactic shoot-out, before making a dramatic close escape, complete with "take my haaaaand" scene.

Dry, down-to-earth, just-the-facts, neutral filmmaking this is not.
I know a couple of people have brought up the "preconceived notion" idea but I just wanted to say thank you for kicking in some examples because that makes a lot more sense to me now. I don't agree (if that wasn't clear :D) with the "'Merica Fuck Yeah!" that people are seeing but those examples at least help me understand where that's coming from.

The same kind of thing happened with 300 (for those who were looking for a deeper message outside of "AWESOME SLOW MO!!!!"); People who were pro-war said that King Leonidas obviously represented George W Bush standing tall without help in order to fend off the evil men trying to destroy their way of life while anti-war people said Xerxes was obviously George W Bush as the evil invader going into the much less powerful but crafty Sparta in order to "give them peace". The view you had in real life was usually the difference between how you interpreted the movie.
 

Ariseishirou

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Zhukov said:
Also, I've read that Kyle's family was involved. Or rather, that they threatened to sue if the film showed him in the slightest negative light.
According to an article linked on the film's Wiki page, his wife was actually involved in writing the script itself. This sort of puzzles me, because all her character does is stand around and cry the whole film long, really. And complain about her husband having to go to war when he literally told her that he was training to become an elite soldier so that he could do to war and "defend America" on their _first date_.
 

Evonisia

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The film is completely hollow.

It's aim is to be a by-the-numbers portrayal of Chris Kyle's life according to the biography and make it seem compelling, and I think it succeeded at the compelling part. Beyond that, though, nothing. There is no hidden message. There are no themes, you see elements of many arguments but never anything built up from them.

An enjoyable film with some nice action and characters moments to be sure, but not one with anything to say.
 

Sanunes

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tippy2k2 said:
Jeez...you know what, I didn't even think about that too but that's an excellent point. I think I was distracted at that scene because MILD SPOILER: (in real life), that is when Chris Kyle "allegedly" punches Jesse Ventura in the mouth for talking trash about the SEALS but with the ongoing court case and whatnot happening, it was probably a good call by Eastwood to let that one part of the book go...
Jesse Ventura won his defamation lawsuit against the book (I do believe it was concluded after filming was finished), but I think the studio would have been nervous of a lawsuit against them if they did decide to portray that one aspect of the book even if the decision was against Ventura the first time.
 

Eddie the head

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Johnny Novgorod said:
Don't sweat it, Movie Bob pretty much always proves himself wrong on his own.
Yeah I kind of quit watching him after the whole "gamergate" thing. I don't know what the "gamergate" people where doing, but you certainly weren't any better. Anyway it was at that point that I was like wow this an opinion I do not need.
 

RedDeadFred

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Haven't seen the film or review.

However, whenever a movie involves anything political, Bob's judgment is immediately clouded. Sometimes he'll start singing praises because it agrees with his ideologies (Elysium) other times they'll confuse him and cause him to misconstrue a movie's message (this one by the sounds of it). This, among other reasons, is why I don't watch Bob's stuff anymore. Sometimes he can be quite insightful, other times he's rather insufferable (IMO -also, keep in mind that I actually share his political stance).

I've seen the trailers, and to be quite honest, I don't understand how anyone could take this as anything but antiwar. Maybe the actual movie is completely different, but from the trailers, it seems like it's a movie about a man who has been permanently changed for the worse after all of his killing.