Level scaling, why is this a thing?

WeepingAngels

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weirdee said:
runic knight said:
I like the hybrid system of level scaling, where specific quest-areas and NPC are scaled to your level so they always represent a suitable challenge regardless when you face them, but the rest are set, or quasi-set leveled so as to be a challenge or cannon fodder based on when you get around to those areas. Seems the best way to retain the whole point of level scaling enemies (So the game doesn't get boring and the main plot has you asking why your character doesn't just curb-stomp the characterized badguy first thing) without the jarring and humorous absurdity of the demigod-gear decked out uber bandit and pals.
yeah, it's entirely possible in Sword of Mana to find the best gear in the game and then max it out to the point where you can kill the final boss in one hit
You have to go out of your way to do this?
 

Drathnoxis

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veloper said:
Drathnoxis said:
veloper said:
Play the previous installment in the ES series(Oblivion) if you're really curious.
Of course, that game is broken in so many ways, you can simply choose to NOT level, while still becoming more powerful. Play the game straight and also without resorting to power gaming and you will experience the complete disaster.
I have played Oblivion, and I seem to remember everybody crumbling beneath the might of my enchanted Daedric firesword in that game too.
That was pretty much the way to go: melee + enchantment power build. If you also picked your major and minor skills optimally, you would get a lot of skill points out of every level.
The game is broken in so many ways, that one optimal level could be worth many suboptimal character levels. But anyway yeah, Oblivion mobs level exactly the same time as the player gains a level.
Oh, I see what you were saying, I misunderstood. I still don't think Oblivion is a good example of a game with 1:1 leveling even if the enemies level at the same time as you because their level ups mostly don't negate your level ups. What I mean is, even without looking up optimal leveling strategies, most players are going to become stronger than the average enemies. As long as you aren't doing something like not leveling up any combat skills that is. It's not really the game the OP was describing where the leveling system is negated by the level scaling.
 

Strazdas

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Redvenge said:
What freedom? It's the same system. You level up and overcome challenges. Difference is, you MUST goto the fire dungeon before you goto the poison dungeon.
the freedom is that if you are good you can go to the poison dungeon to beat the mobs in there too even if you are at too low a level. and when i get a quest to bring back something from a rat infested dungeon at level 50 i shouldnt expect to bring 10 health potions just to survive rats while wearing armor made of literal demons.

Theres also an interesting problem in fallout 4. When you discover power armor pieces they are generated based on your level. if you are exploratory you will discover them all at low level and this makes it literally impossible to obtain high level pwoer armor gear as they never reset when you return. If they were static instead of scaling everyone had same chance to get all pieces instead of only people that grind.


And lets not even start talking about reward scaling. risking your neck killing dragons at level 1 will reward you with 10 gold that isnt even enough to purchase a healing potion while doing the exact same quest at level 50 means you will get so much gear as a reward that you will have to drag it to a shop in multiple runs.

aegix drakan said:
Like, imagine if Skyrim had no level scaling. So you finish the overlong intro at level 5 and go "Sweet! Time to hot-foot it over to Markarth, I wanna start there!" So you jog along the road, and suddenly a level 34 bandit fucks up your day in one hit.
This is EXACTLY what i want. a fresh noob should not go into enemy HQ and expect to live and likewise a godlike leveled player shouldnt die from a crab.

With the level scaling, you are free to go anywhere from the word go.
which is a problem!

That, or leveling shouldn't be about stats, it should just unlock more abilities, and enemy progression should be tied to your actions (kill a lot of bandits? They send out hitmen. Join the Empire? Now you have to fight Stormcloak patrols on the road. Do the Cihdna mine quest? Now you have to deal with either tough thugs from the Silver blood family or roaming Forsworn out to get you all over the map. That kind of thing)
Fallout 4 kinda did that, and still managed to fuck up level scaling majorly. especially with look making it so that some look scales with your level and makes it literally impossible to get certain items unless you play ideally.

as far as your NPC thing goes, this is very much something i want, a world where NPC factions react to your actions and actually change spawns because of it. the closest to that i saw was in STALKER games where you could make factions stronger and they would send out more troops to patrol and fight other factions, ect.

Scarim Coral said:
Well for one thing, they probably don't want the players to abuse a no level scaling system.

I mean imagine being a level 20 area hanging around in a level 10 areas and one shot all the creatures for easy loots (I mean the little easy loots can be worth alot in the right hands).
What you call abuse i call working as it should.
 

Mad World

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I despise level scaling. In Skyrim, the Silver Hand, for example, level up with you. If you're level 15, they're however challenging. If you're level 35, they're just as challenging (if not more). So, there really isn't much of a point in leveling up (when it comes to attempting at becoming stronger via leveling up). While I acknowledge the fact that Skyrim is a sandbox-type game, I still would prefer it if enemies didn't level up alongside you automatically. They key is that it's automatic. If NPCs literally leveled up on their own by fighting, traveling, etc., that'd be awesome! But I don't think that we're quite there yet (technology wise). I prefer the classic style of leveling up in order to kill a difficult enemy. I realize that after a while, enemies stop leveling with respect to certain dungeons. And that after they're cleared, something with regard to the automatic NPC leveling changes. I believe that it goes something like this: if Dungeon A is a level-10-to-30 dungeon and you're level 10 or lower, enemies will be level 10. After level 10, NPCs will match your level up to (and including) level 30. If you're 31, 32, 45, 55, or 70, for example, they will still all be level 30, though (this may change after clearing the dungeon, but I don't completely recall). Generally speaking, though, they level alongside you automatically throughout dungeons and the rest of the game, and I dislike that. If someone is level 14, for example, and they want to be able to at least somewhat overpower the aforementioned hypothetical dungeon's NPCs with ease, they'd need to grind until after level 30 in order to at least be somewhat discernibly more powerful than the enemies, and that would take a lot of time without resorting to abusing anything.

And I do realize that some enemies (such as the Giants and city/town guards) do NOT level up alongside you.
 

maninahat

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nomotog said:
One aspect to games with levels and scaling is the loot cycling. Dead island is a good example of how to do a leveling system wrong, but it dose do well with weapon cycling. How it works is you start out with one weapon, you level, your enemies level, but your weapon won't. Eventually you have to rotate your old weapon out to a new one, or mod your old weapon into something new.

This is also a big aspect of Borderlands. The idea is yo get the player to use a wide verity of weapons rather then keep one through out the game.
I absolutely hate that mechanic. It prevents you from keeping a particular favourite weapon, because it ends up being too under-leveled to be useful a couple of hours later. I prefer a system that encourages to mod your guns so that you can get a bit more long term use out of them, than one that encourages you to bin it the moment you find something with slightly higher numbers. That's why I like Stalker: Pripyat; you can essentially keep the same gun for most of the game and have it still be useful - and yet there is unlimited choice for alternative guns.
 
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Strazdas said:
aegix drakan said:
Like, imagine if Skyrim had no level scaling. So you finish the overlong intro at level 5 and go "Sweet! Time to hot-foot it over to Markarth, I wanna start there!" So you jog along the road, and suddenly a level 34 bandit fucks up your day in one hit.
This is EXACTLY what i want. a fresh noob should not go into enemy HQ and expect to live and likewise a godlike leveled player shouldnt die from a crab.
With the level scaling, you are free to go anywhere from the word go.
which is a problem!
Errr...That kinda would ruin what makes skyrim fun. The ability to explore and act in the world in-character.

If there was no form of level scaling, then every playthrough would be largely the same as you'd be restricted from going to places until you were strong enough.

Like, the reason I've made 3 characters in the last 2 years (I jumped on the skyrim bandwagon late) is because of the possibility of different kinds of runs.

The first time, I was a brain-damaged skooma addict who alternated between being a full-on-thieves guild member and going "robin-hood" style and helping everyone he met. I went all over the map from the beginning. Morthal near the start, visited Riften and Markarth relatively early, ignored Solitude for like half the game, etc.

And then I installed a mod that let me start from many other possible start points (Locked in a prison, shipwrecked off the coast, left for dead by bandits, etc)

The second time, I started out foraging on the edges of society because my character was a former Thalmor and a former bandit after she left, and was trying to keep a low profile until she deemed it safe to come out more, starting with the Mara quests. Then she joined the College of Mages and slowly began to spread influence. I didn't trigger the main quest until I was level 20. I literally didn't go to whiterun until I was level 10 at least.

My third one? I was "just a miner" trying to stay out of trouble after a shipwreck before slowly being pushed into protecting others, then doing the companions quest and generally ignoring the West side of the map entirely until many hours in.

I enjoyed seeing where my character's personalities and backstories would drive them as I role played them. If the map had been filled with invisible "beef gate" walls, I would have lost interest in the game the second time around as everything would have felt way too similar as I'd be going to the same places in the same general order.

Finally, maybe it's just me, but the "trash enemies" like the bandits and mudcrabs and stuff just stop giving me trouble after a while. My thief could kill most of them with one or two arrow shots. My mage only had trouble with huge mobs or Elite enemies or dragons. My current character kills 90% of enemies with one Sprinting-power-attack with her oversized hammer, or 3 normal strikes. She literally only dies (or, in my case, goes into bleedout mode) when an Elite enemy like a Briarheart shows up and spams like 6 ice spikes in 3 seconds. Even Dragons die in like 5 seconds after landing.

I like to be free to approach thie open world Role playing game in whatever way I please, in a way that lets me actually role play my characters. I really enjoy seeing my characters grow and develop into heroes in a natural way that works for them, rather than thinking "ok, I need to avoid going to X location even though it makes sense to for my character, because I know that area is like 20 levels higher than me" or "Welp, now it makes sense to go do this quest...but that area is like 10 levels below me and will be boring as hell now".
 

weirdee

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WeepingAngels said:
weirdee said:
runic knight said:
I like the hybrid system of level scaling, where specific quest-areas and NPC are scaled to your level so they always represent a suitable challenge regardless when you face them, but the rest are set, or quasi-set leveled so as to be a challenge or cannon fodder based on when you get around to those areas. Seems the best way to retain the whole point of level scaling enemies (So the game doesn't get boring and the main plot has you asking why your character doesn't just curb-stomp the characterized badguy first thing) without the jarring and humorous absurdity of the demigod-gear decked out uber bandit and pals.
yeah, it's entirely possible in Sword of Mana to find the best gear in the game and then max it out to the point where you can kill the final boss in one hit
You have to go out of your way to do this?
the process of obtaining and maxing the gear lets you reach that point without additional grinding, but it's not required, and easy to miss if you aren't paying attention
 

WeepingAngels

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weirdee said:
WeepingAngels said:
weirdee said:
runic knight said:
I like the hybrid system of level scaling, where specific quest-areas and NPC are scaled to your level so they always represent a suitable challenge regardless when you face them, but the rest are set, or quasi-set leveled so as to be a challenge or cannon fodder based on when you get around to those areas. Seems the best way to retain the whole point of level scaling enemies (So the game doesn't get boring and the main plot has you asking why your character doesn't just curb-stomp the characterized badguy first thing) without the jarring and humorous absurdity of the demigod-gear decked out uber bandit and pals.
yeah, it's entirely possible in Sword of Mana to find the best gear in the game and then max it out to the point where you can kill the final boss in one hit
You have to go out of your way to do this?
the process of obtaining and maxing the gear lets you reach that point without additional grinding, but it's not required, and easy to miss if you aren't paying attention
You can't just accidentally become godlike? I see no problem with it.
 

IndignantMole

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WeepingAngels said:
Yeah, level scaling is pretty stupid. The reason they do it is to give you complete freedom to explore but then what's the point of exploring if you are still going to be facing the same enemies and the loot will be leveled too. I strongly prefer a game with a good autosave that allows you to explore and maybe run into an overpowered enemy (that you may be able to beat for high experience).
^This. I do think that on a fundamental level, Skyrim was a nice balance of some sort, overpowered baddies here and there but lots of level scaling enemies as well. But sadly most of the enemies fall behind you late game.
 

Strazdas

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aegix drakan said:
Errr...That kinda would ruin what makes skyrim fun. The ability to explore and act in the world in-character.

If there was no form of level scaling, then every playthrough would be largely the same as you'd be restricted from going to places until you were strong enough.

Like, the reason I've made 3 characters in the last 2 years (I jumped on the skyrim bandwagon late) is because of the possibility of different kinds of runs.

The first time, I was a brain-damaged skooma addict who alternated between being a full-on-thieves guild member and going "robin-hood" style and helping everyone he met. I went all over the map from the beginning. Morthal near the start, visited Riften and Markarth relatively early, ignored Solitude for like half the game, etc.

And then I installed a mod that let me start from many other possible start points (Locked in a prison, shipwrecked off the coast, left for dead by bandits, etc)

The second time, I started out foraging on the edges of society because my character was a former Thalmor and a former bandit after she left, and was trying to keep a low profile until she deemed it safe to come out more, starting with the Mara quests. Then she joined the College of Mages and slowly began to spread influence. I didn't trigger the main quest until I was level 20. I literally didn't go to whiterun until I was level 10 at least.

My third one? I was "just a miner" trying to stay out of trouble after a shipwreck before slowly being pushed into protecting others, then doing the companions quest and generally ignoring the West side of the map entirely until many hours in.

I enjoyed seeing where my character's personalities and backstories would drive them as I role played them. If the map had been filled with invisible "beef gate" walls, I would have lost interest in the game the second time around as everything would have felt way too similar as I'd be going to the same places in the same general order.

Finally, maybe it's just me, but the "trash enemies" like the bandits and mudcrabs and stuff just stop giving me trouble after a while. My thief could kill most of them with one or two arrow shots. My mage only had trouble with huge mobs or Elite enemies or dragons. My current character kills 90% of enemies with one Sprinting-power-attack with her oversized hammer, or 3 normal strikes. She literally only dies (or, in my case, goes into bleedout mode) when an Elite enemy like a Briarheart shows up and spams like 6 ice spikes in 3 seconds. Even Dragons die in like 5 seconds after landing.

I like to be free to approach thie open world Role playing game in whatever way I please, in a way that lets me actually role play my characters. I really enjoy seeing my characters grow and develop into heroes in a natural way that works for them, rather than thinking "ok, I need to avoid going to X location even though it makes sense to for my character, because I know that area is like 20 levels higher than me" or "Welp, now it makes sense to go do this quest...but that area is like 10 levels below me and will be boring as hell now".
So you think it is in-character to go slay dragons at level 1 but die from a crap at level 30. ANd you think its not in character to be killed by a strong enemy inside enemy camp if you are too low level? I think level scaling destroys any kind of in-character roleplaying when it comes to relative power levels.

No, every playtrough would not be the same because you can choose many different paths to advance your character and also (while this is less applicable to skyrim because AI is awful) many different tactics to defeat your opponents. For example on my first playtrough i may be able to defeat level 10 bandit only when im level 10 but on my second one i know how they fight and can defeat them at level 5.

Ah yes, because its completely realistic roleplay approach for "just a miner" to kill dragons on sight as soon as he leaves his shipwreck.

Also your complaint about things being the same makes no sense. with level scaling every playtrough is the same because enemies are always the same based on your level. with no level scaling different location exploring would pose different challenges and would actually create more diversity in gameplay.
 

Zaltys

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I hate level scaling. It kills all tension from exploration, knowing that everything that you'll run into will be balanced so that you'll have a good chance of defeating it. That's just boring. I miss the older RPGs where you had to pick your battles, and occasionally flee and return later after becoming stronger.
 
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Strazdas said:
So you think it is in-character to go slay dragons at level 1 but die from a crap at level 30.
How do you die from a crab at level 30? Are you a mage who is super slow and just stands there waiting for it to hit you?

When I hit level 30:
As a mage: Oh look, a Cave bear. *Kills it in 2 ice spikes before it reaches me. If it surprises me, I just run, get some distance or FUSRODAH and then Ice spike to death*
As a Warrior: Oh look, a cave bear. *doesn't even bother moving, as I'm able to tank the hits with my armor with minimal damage, as I kill the bear in like 3 or 4 hits*
As a Warrior: Oh look, a modified dragon from Diverse Dragons who is even stronger then usual and can kill me in one hit with the Ice Storm Breath it has *dodge, dodge, wait for it to land, quaff Buff Two-Handed potion I brewed myself SMASH SMASH killed it*

Again, By level 30, the only thing that kills me (unless I'm levelling REALLY stupid or totally neglect my armor and weapons) are huge mobs of enemies, or Elites like BriarHearts.

Now I will TOTALLY concede the dragon point, as I think it's silly you can slay dragons from the very start of the game. But given how unlocking Shouts works, it's a needed gameplay concession. :s

ANd you think its not in character to be killed by a strong enemy inside enemy camp if you are too low level? I think level scaling destroys any kind of in-character roleplaying when it comes to relative power levels.
And may I ask you how it would sense for bandits in Whiterun, a highly populated area that's ripe for robbing people, to be for some reason weaker than bandits in the middle of nowhere along the road to Morthal, which is in a swamp that no one goes to?

Also, how is it in-character for my selfish thief character (for whom I would not start up the main quest EVER) to have to stay in Whiterun and do a lot of quests for people in order to be strong enough to handle a few enemies on the way to Riften to actually BECOME a damn thief? No, he'd just wanna join the thieves guild right away and tell everyone else to go screw themselves.

No, every playtrough would not be the same because you can choose many different paths to advance your character and also (while this is less applicable to skyrim because AI is awful) many different tactics to defeat your opponents. For example on my first playtrough i may be able to defeat level 10 bandit only when im level 10 but on my second one i know how they fight and can defeat them at level 5.
Mechanic-wise, yeah, there are a few ways to play which makes things different.

But I'd still have to go to the same places in relatively the same order.
Whiterun -> greybeards -> Morthal -> solitude -> Riften -> Markarth -> Winterhold

OR, with the level scaling, I can choose to start in Winterhold because I want to do the Mage guild questline first this time because it makes sense for my character to go there, instead of going to that area late in the game.

Ah yes, because its completely realistic roleplay approach for "just a miner" to kill dragons on sight as soon as he leaves his shipwreck.
Which is why I only started the main quest with her when she was level 10, and had some experience finally getting into fights. And, of course, you fight the first Dragon with a whole platoon of soldiers. After which, I had my character go "If there are dragons out there, and I need to fight them...I'll need training", and she then immediately joined the Companions and went on most missions with a follower of some kind (in case), and got a lot of training from them so she could survive a dragon fight on her own, while also trying her best to RUN from dragons early on instead of fight them (unless they hit a town, in which case, yay for guards helping.

Also your complaint about things being the same makes no sense. with level scaling every playtrough is the same because enemies are always the same based on your level. with no level scaling different location exploring would pose different challenges and would actually create more diversity in gameplay.
This is not that bad a point.

But still, if the point of the game is exploration, having one area be the "Easy zone" and other areas get harder, it actually detracts from the exploration.

For example: I did a low-level run of Xenoblade 1 the first time I played it. It was fun. Then I overexplored the Marsh and did all the quests because I loved the place so much and got hugely overlevelled. Suddenly, the next place (The Jungle) was so EASY that I lost all interest in exploring it because literally nothing posed a challenge to me. Now, given that it's a Character Driven RPG/Drama with a linear story, I'm fine with it and fine with exploring areas in a linear order.

With skyrim on the other hand, it's open world, and the point is to explore how you see fit. In that way, making sure things are always moderately challenging and no area is "too hard" or "too boringly easy" is essential, otherwise the player would be barred from some areas early on, and find coming back to others to be tedious and dull.

Anyway, I prefer being able to make each playthrough different by approaching the world in whatever new ways I like. Whether that's joining the mage's guild first, or whether I start with Markarth first, whether I save the civil war for first or for last.

You're free to disagree, I just think that, for me, an open world RPG like Skyrim needs some form of enemy scaling to remain fun all the way through.
 

Strazdas

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aegix drakan said:
How do you die from a crab at level 30?
Shit happens.

And may I ask you how it would sense for bandits in Whiterun, a highly populated area that's ripe for robbing people, to be for some reason weaker than bandits in the middle of nowhere along the road to Morthal, which is in a swamp that no one goes to?

Also, how is it in-character for my selfish thief character (for whom I would not start up the main quest EVER) to have to stay in Whiterun and do a lot of quests for people in order to be strong enough to handle a few enemies on the way to Riften to actually BECOME a damn thief? No, he'd just wanna join the thieves guild right away and tell everyone else to go screw themselves.
young thieves know about the thriwing theivery in whiterun and try their luck there despite being inexperienced while hardened thieves got good spots with no competition to themselves and target bigger targets. Also bandits being same level would not be a problem, bandits leveling with you would.

Well in any well designed openworld game major cities would be accessible relatively easy if you stayed on the roads. its when you go exploring where you meet those strong enemies. What you complain about is not lack of level scaling but bad game design.

But I'd still have to go to the same places in relatively the same order.
Whiterun -> greybeards -> Morthal -> solitude -> Riften -> Markarth -> Winterhold
Only if your bad at the game and do not improve between playtroughs. Also see my comment about game design above.

But still, if the point of the game is exploration, having one area be the "Easy zone" and other areas get harder, it actually detracts from the exploration.
On the contrary, it would increase the fun in exploration as different areas would pose different challenges instead of knowing you can do anywhere because noone is going to just come and stomp you.
 

sniddy_v1legacy

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This reminds me of Oblivion, robbers with gear that could buy small house - the whole game felt pointless - I started the main quest line....yeh, I was already head of every non magic guild and decked out, and OMG thoese portals were HELL, next play through just gunning the main quest and it was boring. Never any real sense of progress as the game locked me in statis

Skyrim, maybe went too far the other way, at a certain point you could break the game, by the end nothing could stand against me....not even close, I was bored, but it took me a while to get there and I still felt I wanted to finish this
 

Hero in a half shell

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I really loved the way Prince of Persia Warrior Within handled leveling - You started off with a few simple enemies (crows and weak goat-people demon things) that were difficult because all you had to fight them off was literally a stick, as you progressed you found better and better swords that did more damage, but you also started to encounter bigger and bigger enemies as you went further into the island, so fights were still challenging, but all the enemies kept their original stats, so by the end of the game if you encountered the weak goat things again you would bust through them in one hit, which really made you feel powerful knowing how difficult they were at the start.