LGBT Community calls the Salvation Army Bigots

Glerken

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omicron1 said:
Glerken said:
When do people have a debate about "sexuality isn't on the same scale as gender or race"

I'm saying that people who believe homosexuals shouldn't have the same rights as heterosexuals are bigots. That's it.
Sure. We all have every right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; the right to marry someone of the opposite gender... on this point I believe everyone (except perhaps a very small contingent of fringe cases) will agree.
It's when one reinterprets "rights" to fit a particular viewpoint, then labels all in opposition "bigots" or worse, that we have a problem.
I'm not reinterpreting any rights.
A bigot is someone who is intolerant towards other groups of people.
Saying a certain group of people shouldn't have the same rights as yours is being bigoted.
 

Jinjiro

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Whatever their ideologies, I wouldn't donate to them anyway, I'm obviously saving all my money to donate when Desert Bus rolls around again!
 

AMMO Kid

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It's a mature response to an immature movement. I do not agree with LGBT on this one. They acted before even being clear on the SA's beliefs. More churches should act like the Salvation Army.

Note:
Volf99 said:
"Because The Salvation Army is a church we do have theological positions on a variety of topics. These positions are intended for our church members or those who are interested in our church.
That's actually what Jesus Himself taught. I applaud the SA for this one. Westbro could learn a thing or two.
 

omicron1

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Glerken said:
I'm not reinterpreting any rights.
A bigot is someone who is intolerant towards other groups of people.
Saying a certain group of people shouldn't have the same rights as yours is being bigoted.
Absolutely. And I'm saying the ability to marry someone of the same gender is not a right. This is my opinion, and the opinion of a good half the nation. This appears to be where we disagree, and where one of the two parties simply begins calling the other "bigoted" in an effort to force the point - after all, if I'm denying the rights of others, how can I be considered a legitimate voice in discussion? It's much easier to get rid of opponents than answer them, after all - especially if a debate isn't going anywhere fast.
 

aashell13

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Glerken said:
When do people have a debate about "sexuality isn't on the same scale as gender or race"

I'm saying that people who believe homosexuals shouldn't have the same rights as heterosexuals are bigots. That's it.
There's the catch though; the salvation army, as do many other christians, believes that marriage was ordained by God as the union of a man and a woman, so it is beyond the authority of the state to redefine. If one subscribes to this belief, then a same sex "marriage" is impossible by definition; a nonsensical construct on par with the idea that pizza sauce is a vegetable. Thus they believe that no one has a right to a homosexual marriage because no such thing can exist.
 

direkiller

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CM156 said:
Grey_Wolf_Leader said:
Christians have never argued that anyone with homosexual inclinations do not have the same rights as anyone else. Its just that no one (even heterosexually-attracted people) has the inalienable right to pick and choose his/her marital partner from an unlimited pool. In some societies, marriages are still arranged by the parents of the partners so that every involved party is taken into consideration. In ours, you can't marry someone under legal age, who cannot give consent, or who is of the same gender.

The underlying point here is that legitimate marriages must be authorized by a higher authority who has final say in the matter, whether that authority is the state or God himself. That is all Christians have ever believed in when it comes to "gay" rights. "Equality of Law" means you get no extra-special exception just because you're different.
That's actually a good way of putting it

OT: I still give money to them.


Blablahb said:
Yes, and the nazis helped Germany out of a deep economic crisis, so they were also good guys? Give me a break.
You are aware, my friend, that comparing someone to Hitler and the Nazis is pretty much a instant "You lose" button, correct? Try doing that in any real life debate. Doesn't fly, my friend.
it doesn't fly because its a straw man augment not because Hitler is a you lose button
(such as if your making an augment that a road system can help an economy post WWI germany isint the worst pick in the world)

OT: the money going into those kettles is for the food bank not anything the Salvation army agrees with i see no problem with it. The BSA dose the same thing, i don't agree with what some of there leaders spout off or some of there actions but that doesn't stop me from donating a can of pea's or corn.
 

Rawne1980

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I have donated to SA a couple of times.

Usually when a little old lady corners me in the town centre and guilts me into parting with a pound before she will bugger off.

On the whole though I tend not to give to charity because they have different views to me....

They view my money as a way to feed the starving, homeless and less fortunate .... I view it as a way to feed my wife, kids and my bloody self.

£2.50 a week can save a starving person in a third world country .... it can also buy me a lottery ticket and a Mars bar, guess which one I go for.
 

Helmholtz Watson

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Deviate said:
Especially when there's non-religious alternatives that do just as much good, without this bigotry and promotion of attitudes that belong in mental institutions.
While I do agree that homosexuals should have the same legal rights as heterosexuals, I think it is incredibly wrong to label people who don't support (notice I didn't say anything about violence) homosexuality, to have the "attitudes that belong in mental institutions". Having an opposing opinion on a topic does not mean you should be equated with someone who is mentally ill/unstable.
 

Glerken

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aashell13 said:
Glerken said:
When do people have a debate about "sexuality isn't on the same scale as gender or race"

I'm saying that people who believe homosexuals shouldn't have the same rights as heterosexuals are bigots. That's it.
There's the catch though; the salvation army, as do many other christians, believes that marriage was ordained by God as the union of a man and a woman, so it is beyond the authority of the state to redefine. If one subscribes to this belief, then a same sex "marriage" is impossible by definition; a nonsensical construct on par with the idea that pizza sauce is a vegetable. Thus they believe that no one has a right to a homosexual marriage because no such thing can exist.
I understand what you're saying.
And the Salvation Army has the right to believe what they want, they've done a lot of good for people. They've done a lot of good for LGBT people. They can use their private money to lobby for whatever they want in DC.

That doesn't stop that belief from being bigoted.
 

CM156_v1legacy

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Mar 23, 2011
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direkiller said:
CM156 said:
Grey_Wolf_Leader said:
Christians have never argued that anyone with homosexual inclinations do not have the same rights as anyone else. Its just that no one (even heterosexually-attracted people) has the inalienable right to pick and choose his/her marital partner from an unlimited pool. In some societies, marriages are still arranged by the parents of the partners so that every involved party is taken into consideration. In ours, you can't marry someone under legal age, who cannot give consent, or who is of the same gender.

The underlying point here is that legitimate marriages must be authorized by a higher authority who has final say in the matter, whether that authority is the state or God himself. That is all Christians have ever believed in when it comes to "gay" rights. "Equality of Law" means you get no extra-special exception just because you're different.
That's actually a good way of putting it

OT: I still give money to them.


Blablahb said:
Yes, and the nazis helped Germany out of a deep economic crisis, so they were also good guys? Give me a break.
You are aware, my friend, that comparing someone to Hitler and the Nazis is pretty much a instant "You lose" button, correct? Try doing that in any real life debate. Doesn't fly, my friend.
it doesn't fly because its a straw man augment not because Hitler is a you lose button
(such as if your making an augment that a road system can help an economy post WWI germany isint the worst pick in the world)

OT: the money going into those kettles is for the food bank not anything the Salvation army agrees with i see no problem with it. The BSA dose the same thing, i don't agree with what some of there leaders spout off or some of there actions but that doesn't stop me from donating a can of pea's or corn.
Godwin's Law or Reductio Ad Hitlerum are both "You lose buttons" in the sense that if you compare someone to a Nazi, you have no better argument in the matter. There is appropriate context to talk about Hitler in debate. This? This was not one of them.
 

pirateninj4

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Apr 6, 2009
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I'd rather give to them than a LGBT or whatever the fuck it is cause. At least I know Sally Army get's shit done for poor people.
 

Rubashov

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direkiller said:
OT: the money going into those kettles is for the food bank not anything the Salvation army agrees with
But is it? How do you know how the SA uses the money that goes into those kettles? It's a fact that the SA lobbies for anti-gay legislation, and that money has to come from somewhere. Even if it doesn't come directly from donations, it's still money that the SA somehow has in its possession and, therefore, money that could have been used to, y'know, feed people.

If I'm going to donate to a charity, I want to know that my money isn't contributing to that charity's efforts to lobby for discriminatory legislation.
 

emeraldrafael

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Jul 17, 2010
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Doesnt change my opinion, moslty cause my grandmother works for them, and i've worked for them and seen the good they do. Its true they're a christian group, but then again, the red cross is as well. And as often as I worked for them, I've never seen anyone in the organization ask if someone was homosexual and refuse them.

Besides, even if they did, they're still helping people who are in need of it. While that wouldnt make it right, stopping donations to the S. Army would hurt far more people than it would help.
 

omicron1

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NameIsRobertPaulson said:
Sorry, I can't recall when my loving lesbian parents lost their rights to someone's opinion. Or my dad who beat the shit out of my mom every day got to have his because of someone's opinion.

There are no "opinions" when it comes to the rights that all humans are entitled to. And until someone can show me where homosexuals marrying will end the human race as we know it, or destroy the fabric of society, or whatever else Pat Robertson spews every day, I'll continue to refer to your attempts to prevent their happiness as "bigoted".
Ah, the classic appeal to emotion. My response is thus: "Someone's grandma always suffers." In other words, for every emotion-based argument there is an emotion-based counter argument.

I am afraid you are simply going to have to come to terms with the fact that approximately half (although estimates - and poll results - vary widely) of the nation disagrees with you. You cannot discount their collective position by calling them bigots, any more than I can get rid of you by calling you and yours "religiophobes." You have your opinion and it is quite unlikely to go away; I respect the existence thereof. And you are going to have to respect the existence of mine, because it - and I - am not going away. I am not a bigot, a homophobe, or any other slur because I disagree with you, even if you think your position is in support of a "fundamental human right." I am someone with an entirely different viewpoint to your own concerning what qualifies as a "right." And, like it or not, my opinion is just as valid as yours.
 

Helmholtz Watson

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Nov 7, 2011
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NameIsRobertPaulson said:
omicron1 said:
Glerken said:
I'm not reinterpreting any rights.
A bigot is someone who is intolerant towards other groups of people.
Saying a certain group of people shouldn't have the same rights as yours is being bigoted.
Absolutely. And I'm saying the ability to marry someone of the same gender is not a right. This is my opinion, and the opinion of a good half the nation. This appears to be where we disagree, and where one of the two parties simply begins calling the other "bigoted" in an effort to force the point - after all, if I'm denying the rights of others, how can I be considered a legitimate voice in discussion? It's much easier to get rid of opponents than answer them, after all - especially if a debate isn't going anywhere fast.
Sorry, I can't recall when my loving lesbian parents lost their rights to someone's opinion. Or my dad who beat the shit out of my mom every day got to have his because of someone's opinion.

There are no "opinions" when it comes to the rights that all humans are entitled to. And until someone can show me where homosexuals marrying will end the human race as we know it, or destroy the fabric of society, or whatever else Pat Robertson spews every day, I'll continue to refer to your attempts to prevent their happiness as "bigoted".
Actually I think opinions play a very important part in what is considered a "right". If you look across the globe, you'll see different parts of the world, have different opinions (and thus laws) on the rights that people have. For example, in the US, we can openly criticize our government on television, in newspapers or on the internet and we view that as a "right". However in (PRC)China, citizens do not have the right to openly criticize the CCP, just look at the recent case of Ai Weiwei. So when you state that "[t]here are no "opinions" when it comes to the rights that all humans are entitled to", I have to disagree because I have yet to see every nation agree on what specific "rights" "all humans are entitled to".
 

Zeema

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Jun 29, 2010
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My interactions with the salvation is that a lot of them are very bigoted the ones around here say that gay people are satans followers.

So I don't like the army as much as the next.
 

MaxwellEdison

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Sep 30, 2010
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I've always disliked them for their religious views.
Supporting secular charities is the way to go, I think.