LGBT Community calls the Salvation Army Bigots

[emeraldrafael]

-snip-
zuh?
I always thought those Santas where for other charities, the way I understood it they only worked out of the eastern united states, I grew up in the east, but moved out west later, and I never noticed SA at all out here.
I live about an hour south of Provo, so maybe I'm out of their way or something.

Well you do live in a very Mormon area (particularly a very Fundamentalist Mormon area). Most people dont like to go out there in general just because its not a very welcoming place to be. Though the SA does have quite a few operating HQs in the West, and I think there main operating area is somewhere in California (in fact I think its in San Fransisco

But really, where ever there's a church, there will be the volunteers.

EDIT: Not that there's anything wrong with being a Mormon or a Fundamentalist Mormon (though I personally dont agree with the latter's beliefs in particular).

 

[KAPTAINmORGANnWo4life]

Yay, the hate train is fully loaded in this thread!

 

[Firia]

Even if they did discriminate, at least SOME people would still be receiving help.

I can't argue with that, but I can say there are other helping organizations that aren't on a religious foundation. They may be more deserving of your donation.

 

[Gmans uncle]

-snip-
zuh?
I always thought those Santas where for other charities, the way I understood it they only worked out of the eastern united states, I grew up in the east, but moved out west later, and I never noticed SA at all out here.
I live about an hour south of Provo, so maybe I'm out of their way or something.

Well you do live in a very Mormon area (particularly a very Fundamentalist Mormon area). Most people dont like to go out there in general just because its not a very welcoming place to be. Though the SA does have quite a few operating HQs in the West, and I think there main operating area is somewhere in California (in fact I think its in San Fransisco

But really, where ever there's a church, there will be the volunteers.

Hmm.. the area is heavily Mormon, but I've never met any fundamentalists out here, and most of them aren't THAT forceful of their religion on others (although don't expect to move here and not get some missionaries at your door within the first week). But I guess to the majority of the world Utah kinda consists of 4 or 5 cities in the north with wasteland everywhere else, so... yeah good point.

 

[direkiller]

ressing LGBT, the LFBT community is trying to suppress them back. The problem is that it harms the charities they do which means it ultimately harms the people who are helped by the charities and not so much the SA itself. I mean people are free to choose to donate or not to the SA because their money goes to charity not into the pockets of the SA, or at least it shouldn't.

If people choose not to donate to the SA, then that is their choice. However, I don't want people to think that if they donated it will go directly toward LGBT suppression.

the people Boycotting are not using it as a means to give less(mostly by giving that money to an organizatin without a political backing). You can just as easily donate to the food bank by walking to the food bank and dropping off non expired food, blankets,water,time all without condoning an organizational that pushes for laws that suppress your way of life.

 

[The Dr0w Ranger]

I drop a coin from time to time, I'd donate to any charity similar(except the "Build XXXXX Public School's new pool/football field" fund).

I didn't read much of the source material, but it seems like SA donates based on need, not anything else, which is noble, I see the lobbying(and have a similar-ish bent), and hope they aren't using the buckets to fund the lobbying, thats crooked whether you agree or not. I would suggest though, that as a church, they likely collect tithes in their chapels on Sundays etc. Those donations ARE informed, and are more fit to be funneled into movements.

I think religion is integral to political feeling, as is the lack thereof. Who you listen to, where you get your information, those are all that a faith influences, and I see no reason why my choice of informant is anyone elses business. Its unfortunate that people who don't read their Bibles well in the first place speak for the whole of us so often, I have and support friends with a different "swing" than mine, but I can disagree without having to attack them.

I would like to clear up, I think all of the LGBT acronym is wrong, but I feel I need to chime in only when its marriage(when defined as a minister/priest/pastor/rabbi led service), you want equal insurance benefits, hospital visitation, adoption, whatever? Have the fuck at it, 2 stipulations for me,
1. Any religious leader can REFUSE to participate, not hinder the ceremony, but not be made to perform it his/her self.
2.Let the extremists have their way, find a new name for it(civil union gets some spit, so something else would be needed).
If you want to get "Married" by a judge or consenting priest whatnot, its neither my job nor interest to prevent it, I just want to make sure conscientious objectors can be protected as well.

Also, "God Hates Fags" is a phrase derided and reviled as much in most churches as it is for the rest, God Hates NOBODY, he doesn't like what you do in the bedroom is all.....

 

[Firia]

I mean seriously, who has the salvation army ever hurt? Annoyed with their bells, sure, but hurt?

Assuming the information that they recieved was accurate, they're asking people of the LGBT community to not support an organization that doesn't support their own, and has actively partaken in political strides against them.

You wouldn't support a cause that helped others when it hurt you and your rights in the long run, would you? I wouldn't say that the LGBT community is being a dick about anything (RE: video). They're just protecting their base.

And there are plenty of other organizations that help people to donate to.

 

[Steve Butts]

Just like the radical religious right perceives a homosexual agenda with the intent to subvert and to dominate the world, the radical homosexual left perceives a christian agenda with the intent to subvert and to dominate the world.

Nicely put. There are clearly errors at either extreme and neither side improves the lot of humanity by assuming that secular and religious moralities have to be at odds. As with our partisan political system, the extremists have taken over the debate, leaving little room for humanists and theists to understand that our spiritual beliefs and civil rights don't always have to match up.

 

[emeraldrafael]

-snip-
zuh?
I always thought those Santas where for other charities, the way I understood it they only worked out of the eastern united states, I grew up in the east, but moved out west later, and I never noticed SA at all out here.
I live about an hour south of Provo, so maybe I'm out of their way or something.

Well you do live in a very Mormon area (particularly a very Fundamentalist Mormon area). Most people dont like to go out there in general just because its not a very welcoming place to be. Though the SA does have quite a few operating HQs in the West, and I think there main operating area is somewhere in California (in fact I think its in San Fransisco

But really, where ever there's a church, there will be the volunteers.

Hmm.. the area is heavily Mormon, but I've never met any fundamentalists out here, and most of them aren't THAT forceful of their religion on others (although don't expect to move here and not get some missionaries at your door within the first week). But I guess to the majority of the world Utah kinda consists of 4 or 5 cities in the north with wasteland everywhere else, so... yeah good point.

well,t hey;re in there little... societies (Id like to call them sects, but that makes them sound like a cult). You'd be very well aware if you met a Fundamentalist Mormon, though you'd be in their "territory" by that point. I know they dont speak for all Mormons and definitely dont speak for the state of Utah, but the state itself has carried a very Mormon image, and the Mormon history gives the feeling that they're people you would like to avoid.

and then theres also what you said abiout the states perception geographically.

EDIT:

...

Also, "God Hates Fags" is a phrase derided and reviled as much in most churches as it is for the rest, God Hates NOBODY, he doesn't like what you do in the bedroom is all.....

I forget exactly who it was (either John Paul II or Benedict XVI), but one of the more recent popes of the Catholic church and one of the more recent movements out of the catholic church as it tries to reinvent itself into the modern day world is that God doesnt care if you're homosexual in your private lives, but rather he wouldnt like you to shit on the idea of marriage being between man and woman, because if either of those parts were changed with the other, you couldnt have life be made, and marriage should be a union of two people with no outside interaction.

...

which has always struck me as funny since divorce is very much frowned upon in gods eyes if you listen to what a priests tells you about it, and with a divorce rate of around 50% in the US alone straight couples arent showing why marriage should be sacred.

...

To be honest, in about... maybe 2 or 3 generations, I would be surprised if you saw Christian religion become accepting of the gay community and actively compaigning for their acceptance, and only the very out there groups like the WBC being the ones saying they hate and oppose gay marriage.

 

[viranimus]

Christianity IS inherently bigoted. Core values of the christian religion are based on racism, sexism, religious persecution and homophobia. It's great when people choose to take the good (love, hope, forgiveness) from the Bible and ignore the bad (racism, sexism, violence), but I think we all know that is not the majority position.

The Salvation Army takes YOUR donation money and uses it to lobby for anti-gay policies. When you donate to SA, you passively support those platforms. Now, of course, if you are homophobic and support anti-gay-rights legislature, go ahead and drop some more in that bucket, if not, give it to someplace that isn't skimming off the top to push policy you disagree with.

No, What you have here is a group of individuals trying to rail against something that they clearly do not comprehend so as to push their own personal agenda that people clearly do not want. Basically these actions by this one splinter of the LGBRUHAHA are taking actions that actually set back gay rights activism by trying to make this splinter group an example of hypocrisy by doing exactly what the LGBUGABOO collective has consistently rallied against. Pushing an unpopular agenda and cramming ideologies down peoples throats even though they are vehemently opposed to accept the rhetoric. Sounds quite familiar for some reason.

Christianity is not inherently bigoted. No, the popular view of Christianity is inherently bigoted. What people see on Fox news and assume that is representation of Christianity is bigoted The perception of Christianity by 15-25 year olds who are set to rally against anything their parents support is bigoted but that is not a representation of Christianity and much like a lot of what occurs on the net, people like to criticize even though they have next to no understanding of what they are criticizing.

You can defend these actions if you will.. but think for a second what you are doing when you do so. You are attacking a charitable organization that does good works that benefit every single community they are present in and do so without any sort of context in regard to sexual orientation. Again, that is an organization that both directly and indirectly helps literally thousands of homosexuals and tens of thousands who are not every single day. So there is justification to attack that?

And what is the reason for this attack? It is as I said before. Without editing, the precise reason is it boils down to the salvation army is affiliated with Christianity and some within Homosexuality views Christianity as an enemy so it literally boils down to a guilt by association so astounding that it would baffle the mind of the guy at PETA who thought "hey if we call fish Sea kittens, then people will think they are more cute and less likely to want to kill them"

Its one thing to criticize an organization, But it is completely another to assign evils without justification or merit simply because its something you disagree with. Then show me the homosexual who has not fell victim to that at some point in their life. Now tell me its not insanely hypocritical to do the exact same thing.

 

[Iman Shumpert]

So let's recognize the KKK as a charity eh?

Funny thing is, some KKK sects actually donate money to Black community projects if it keeps them away from their white settlements. Not that I agree in what the KKK stand for in the slightest manner, but me-thinks donating to the KKK is roughly on the same level as the Salvation Army.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

Personally, I accept gays as human beings, but i'm against gay marriage, because i'm against any civil union being defined by the sate or nation. Marriage should be a religious thing, and civil union a between two consenting adults thing.

I'm sorry, but I was reading this and I have to say that I have never heard of another person who had the same views on marriage as me in my life so I felt I had to post this before my jaw hit the floor. I wasn't able to post it in time by the way. This is assuming that you also believe that the government should stop handing out marriage licenses and instead just start just handing out civil union licenses, which is what it sounds like you're supporting.

OT- They probably get their lobbying money from their administration, not their charity money, which I assume they would call their "missions fund" or something like that. Most churches I have been a part of or attended have strong separations between their missions spending and the rest of their spending. This basically means that the money that goes into that pot probably only goes to their charity work, while the money they get from tithes and offerings during a service may go to their lobbying work. This is how my denomination works at least.

 

[Romblen]

This seems kind of silly, I've never heard of the Salvation Army doing anything anti-gay. They use the money they receive to help anyone who needs it. Maybe if I saw them trying to deny aid to homosexuals I would feel differently, but this sounds like a group that's convinved all Christians are out to get them.

 

[agentorange98]

you have to swear an oath to the church to join the salvo (or so I hear, it could be lies idk) either way that sounds weird and iffy

 

[Sud0_x]

Ah, I'm glad I found this video again. It much better explains my position against the Salvation Army that I can usually say in my own words.

I'll give my take on the issue and that's all it is, my take.


The people at the Salvation Army do not let their beliefs get in the way of helping anyone in need.



Let me make it clear that any person who decides not to donate to a charity over this difference in belief...

Is also entirely justified as they are entitled to give to the charity of their choosing.

My problem with this movement is thus,


the Salvation Army is also a religious group and are anti-homosexuality? (I dislike the umbrella nature of this sentiment but we'll go with it).
They're allowed to be.

You can't force a person into how to live or who to be in life and that goes both ways (pun not intended).
The same right to beliefs can't be taken away from anyone. Not by religion, not by legislation, not by punishment of death.
This is the power of will.

Damaging the reputation of a charity that does good work and saves lives over a difference in opinion that is irrelevant is a fucking shitty thing to do. It is, evidently, irrelevant to the work of the charity. It is irrelevant to the people they're helping. It is irrelevant.

The only example I could find in a quick search:

-Ministers within the church cannot be practitioners of homosexual sex.

Which is entirely consistent with their theological beliefs. Although, it was denied exemption from anti-discrimination laws by the US federal government in 2001.


-The Salvation Army maintains that they were "not trying to get permission to discriminate against hiring gays and lesbians for the majority of its roughly 55,000 jobs and merely wanted a federal regulation that made clear that the charity did not have to ordain sexually active gay ministers and did not have to provide medical benefits to the same-sex partners of employees." <--- Denied by US federal government.

-The Salvation Army offers its services to all who qualify, regardless of sexual orientation, and opposes the abuse of people based on sexual orientation. However, they also oppose gay marriage: "Christians whose sexual orientation is primarily or exclusively same-sex are called upon to embrace celibacy as a way of life."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation_army

In short, I believe that anti-homosexual points of view are fine as long as they don't directly attack the freedom of others and I think the Salvation Army satisfies those criteria, it's nothing personal. For the record; I support gay rights due to the fundamental freedoms they promote.

Anyway, thanks for sticking with me, while the video you shared was certainly interesting and informative I'd like to hear your personal opinion if you have the time. May you do so knowing that you are well within your rights to disagree with me.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

I never donated to them anyway. Anyone with a different agenda, conversion in their case, is just not a charity.

Also note how their spokesperson doesn't even bother to deny their bigoted views, but instead tries to hide by saying they a happy few that do comply by the standards of being Arya... -oh wait, different bigots - people that do comply with the standards of a 'good Christian'. (as if anyone knows what those are)

Even if they did discriminate, at least SOME people would still be receiving help.

So let's recognize the KKK as a charity eh?

And why not label the Taliban a charity while we're at it? After all if you're a devout Muslim extremist, they can give you a lot of aid.

I'm thinking the Salvation Army does a LOT more good than bad.

Yes, and the nazis helped Germany out of a deep economic crisis, so they were also good guys? Give me a break.

Lets back up what you said there. Im not even jewish and what youve said there has deeply offended me. You think that the charity, despite donating equally to everyone, is comparable to:

A: The brutal and systematic murder of SIX MILLION PEOPLE
B: The suicide bombing and attacks/rapes of innocent civilians in their own and other countries.

What the HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU. If you cant see how these parallels are insanely... i dont even know, HORRIFICALLY awful then you need help... what do you do in the street? Dont offer someone a bus chair because they are young? YOU MIGHT AS WELL BE STRANGLING AND DEVOURING BABIES YOU MONSTER!

You tried to compare the good the salvation army did with the bad and say the bad is worse. Lets weight up.

Good:
Feed thousands and thousands of starving people, saved a shit tonne of lives.

Bad:
Have a viewpoint they dont act on that you dont agree with.

Definately filthy neo nazis there.

If i type what i actually feel ill get banned so lets leave it at that.

The salvation army might have some odd views but that doesnt get in the way of the good they do. Its ok to not like something, its not ok to descriminate, and theres no evidence that these people descriminate at all. None. I dont agree with EVERY TINY NUANCE of a charities ideas, but hell, if it feeds some starving children good for them.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

Sorry, I can't recall when my loving lesbian parents lost their rights to someone's opinion. Or my dad who beat the shit out of my mom every day got to have his because of someone's opinion.

There are no "opinions" when it comes to the rights that all humans are entitled to. And until someone can show me where homosexuals marrying will end the human race as we know it, or destroy the fabric of society, or whatever else Pat Robertson spews every day, I'll continue to refer to your attempts to prevent their happiness as "bigoted".

Ah, the classic appeal to emotion. My response is thus: "Someone's grandma always suffers." In other words, for every emotion-based argument there is an emotion-based counter argument.

I am afraid you are simply going to have to come to terms with the fact that approximately half (although estimates - and poll results - vary widely) of the nation disagrees with you. You cannot discount their collective position by calling them bigots, any more than I can get rid of you by calling you and yours "religiophobes." You have your opinion and it is quite unlikely to go away; I respect the existence thereof. And you are going to have to respect the existence of mine, because it - and I - am not going away. I am not a bigot, a homophobe, or any other slur because I disagree with you, even if you think your position is in support of a "fundamental human right." I am someone with an entirely different viewpoint to your own concerning what qualifies as a "right." And, like it or not, my opinion is just as valid as yours.

I believe the line "All men are born equal" is appropriate here.

Because apparently they are not. If a man is born gay he is not equal by your logic. He does not have the right to marriage unless it is someone he has no attraction to.

I think in a world where a man and a woman who fucking hate each other have more right to marry than two men who love eachother something is inherently wrong. All men are born equal. Its in the consitution so your opnion has no right to deny the foundations of the country. Unless of course you want to argue all men are not born equal in terms of basic rights?

My stance is everyone can marry or no one can, thus equallity.

EDIT: This was an accidental double post i turned into something usefull.

 

[KnowYourOnion]

I'm thinking the Salvation Army does a LOT more good than bad.

Yes, and the nazis helped Germany out of a deep economic crisis, so they were also good guys? Give me a break.

You know, I figured a while ago that if I couldn't support the idea of a future in which LGTBs or BLTs or whatever the hell they called themselves were officially recognized as a national minority (god help us all...) I could at least tolerate them if they made themselves to be ordinary otherwise.

It's shit like this which is even pushing that level of toleration. Where people who have an opposing viewpoint to the homosexual community are seen as neo-fascist Hitler clones.

I mean, WOW. I realize that the right has a fair share of Bible-thumping logic-abandoning creationists it has to account for, but I truly never fail to be startled by how horrible you liberals and your comparisons can be. You are comparing a CHARITY ORGANIZATION TO HITLER. I suppose I must be, what, the equivalent of a two-headed Hitler with laser eyes in your mind? Do you drug yourselves or something to get these arguments?

Whatever. Don't bother responding- I'm not arguing with you. I've learned to stop beating on that brick wall a while ago.

Also, I don't think the LGBT community came together with a unified voice and called the salvation army bigots. Its probably just a few blokes.

God, I hope so. I know that the true opinions of many are unheard from silent mouths while the loudest claim to represent them, but some days, I really, REALLY wonder.

Don't judge liberalism just because they have a few massive arses. The right wing makes these ridiculous comparisons too. Don't worry everybody your respective view points offer equal opportunities for the crazy people.

 

[lacktheknack]

I'm thinking the Salvation Army does a LOT more good than bad.

Yes, and the nazis helped Germany out of a deep economic crisis, so they were also good guys? Give me a break.

I know Godwin's Law exists... but never in my entire life would I have expected to have witnessed its use on the freaking Salvation Army. All of my disappoint, sir. All of it.

OT: I volunteered with the Salvation Army for a day, hosting the Vancouver Chili Wagon. We served Christians, atheists, antitheists, flamboyant gays, drugged up guys who could barely speak, and some topless hippies. No one complained or cared about those things, we were just to keep talking to people and keep handing out chili and socks.

If the main host, who is in his fifties and is a die-hard Christian was acting as if he wasn't being everflashed for ten minutes, as according to Salvation Army code of conduct, I have my doubts that gays are being discriminated against by them.