Major discrepancies in Trump tax returns

Agema

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https://www.propublica.org/article/trump-inc-podcast-never-before-seen-trump-tax-documents-show-major-inconsistencies

Who'da thunk it?

ProPublica has got hold of Trump's tax returns via a FOI reqeust, and it seems he was telling lenders some of his properties were a lot more full than he was telling the authorities for tax purposes.

Expert analysts have suggested that although numbers for the two can differ for legitimate reasons, the difference in the case of certain Trump's properties appears to be extremely hard to explain. Trump has faced accusations of similar sorts of fraudulent conduct in the past.
 

CaitSeith

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To surprise of no one. "Trump cheats in his taxes" pretty much enters in the list of obviousness like "water is wet", "fire is hot" and "Trump has diminute hands". Among capitalists, cheating the government is nearly patriotic (or at very least "smart"). At least the precise numbers are out now, so, yay for small victories?
 

Abomination

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Wasn't part of his original campaign strategy to remind people just how smart he was because he was able to avoid paying X amount of tax?
 

Asita

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Abomination said:
Wasn't part of his original campaign strategy to remind people just how smart he was because he was able to avoid paying X amount of tax?
It was, until he realized that claiming tax avoidance was attracting the wrong kind of attention. For it to be in any way 'special', it had to be anything from sketchy (eg, exploiting a legal loophole that wasn't intended to be used that way) to flat-out illegal (eg, falsifying financial statements). This makes boasting about it at best terrible PR and at worst admission of criminal behavior. Moreover, the claim necessarily increases greater scrutiny into his financials both to confirm his boasts of clever accounting and to evaluate whether that accounting was actually legal. And when it comes to the latter...well if ProPublica's article is to be believed, it very much appears like it wasn't. As in "surprisingly reminiscent of The Producers" appearances of illegality. To quote the article directly:

There can be legitimate reasons for numbers to diverge between tax and loan documents, the experts noted, but some of the gaps seemed to have no reasonable justification. "It really feels like there?s two sets of books ? it feels like a set of books for the tax guy and a set for the lender," said Kevin Riordan, a financing expert and real estate professor at Montclair State University who reviewed the records.
 

Abomination

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Asita said:
Abomination said:
Wasn't part of his original campaign strategy to remind people just how smart he was because he was able to avoid paying X amount of tax?
It was, until he realized that avoiding taxes was attracting the wrong kind of attention.
I think that's one of those "if smoke, then fire" scenarios.

I do not think anyone is surprised with the finding. I think it's more surprising on how long it took to be found out.
 

Agema

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Abomination said:
Wasn't part of his original campaign strategy to remind people just how smart he was because he was able to avoid paying X amount of tax?
Yup. But subsequently abandoned, probably on advice from his campaign team.

It's worth bearing in mind that it might not be illegality at all. Trump is extremely vain, and may of course just be upset at the prospect that it could reveal his real net worth: a lot less than he likes to claim it is. There's also a political risk of revealing extensive international business links which could go down very badly (Russia, Turkey and Saudi Arabia, maybe?). Furthermore that even if he has legally exploited all sorts of loopholes in property law to underpay on tax, all the legality in the world doesn't mean that many voters might find massive scale tax avoidance hard to stomach.
 

Kwak

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Wouldn't this be known already to the tax office? And if they're not laying charges, I guess they don't see an issue?
 

Avnger

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Kwak said:
Wouldn't this be known already to the tax office? And if they're not laying charges, I guess they don't see an issue?
No, not necessarily. https://www.propublica.org/article/irs-now-audits-poor-americans-at-about-the-same-rate-as-the-top-1-percent
 

Agema

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Kwak said:
Wouldn't this be known already to the tax office? And if they're not laying charges, I guess they don't see an issue?
The subpoena for Trump's tax records suggests not - he's evidently under investigation.

Realistically, unless someone goes a thorough forensic examination of someone's accounts, it's probably hard to spot. There's no reason the tax office would necessarily have access to the financial documents Trump is sending to lenders, for instance. Potentially an independent accountant/auditor is also required to sign off accounts before they go to the tax office - but if that accountant is in on it or has been tricked, the tax office would have no immediate reason to query it.
 

tstorm823

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TrulyBritish said:
I can't wait to hear how tstorm defends this...
You might be waiting a while.

I promise you, my belief that Donald Trump isn't subtly coordinating international interference into US elections without ever leaving a paper trail connecting him directly to it is neither support nor compliment. I just think treating him as an evil supervillain is incredibly misguided. I think treating Trump as simultaneously really really good at espionage level cover-ups but hopelessly incompetent at actually doing the things being covered up is nonsense, but not because he's a good and righteous person, rather because he's a doofus and a narcissist with no concept of subtlety whatsoever.

This is exactly what a doofus narcissist without subtlety would do, I neither doubt it happened nor think he shouldn't be given appropriate punishment for any crimes committed. But if I had to guess what the crimes were, I don't think it's tax evasion. I'm with Agema here, the lower estimate of worth is probably closer to accurate.
 

Agema

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tstorm823 said:
I think treating Trump as simultaneously really really good at espionage level cover-ups but hopelessly incompetent at actually doing the things being covered up is nonsense, but not because he's a good and righteous person, rather because he's a doofus and a narcissist with no concept of subtlety whatsoever.
I'm not sure Trump is very good at anything any more, except putting on a show.

I think Trump has attained the sort of level where he has a huge number of minions to do things for him: in his private, business and presidential spheres. In this sense, he can be terrible at a lot of things he might be expected be good at, but those minions can mitigate a lot of the problems.

I remember someone posted a video of him from ~1980 where he talking very intelligently and cogently about the property market. But that was long ago when he had to work for it. Throughout the 80s and on he gradually became a brand and a showman, and his business skills declined. There's evidence his property development achievements from the late 80s on are somewhere between poor and modest. The fact that banks won't deal with him for conventional finance that he increasingly relied on shady practices than good judgement. Thus also the increasing myth of the "deal maker": someone whose primary skill became hoodwinking small or unwary investors with charm, bluster and lies.

I think the things we hear about Trump not doing detail, being disinterested in how government works and what's going on are largely true. This is a man who has spent his latter decades at the top of his own business empire making grandiose decisions and hobnobbing, reality TV, where all the complex grunt work of accounting, understanding the market, planning, etc. has been passed onto employees. That's been the case for sufficiently long he's now stuck in the Trump 2.0 mould, a low attention span performer. Compare to Zelenskyy, another person from outside politics who upon being elected went on a massive crunch course in civics and governance. Does anyone think Trump did? I bet he spent those preparatory meetings with Obama letting the info drip out of one ear the minute it went into the other.

I think Trump lumbers around government like a bull in a china shop - as you say with no subtlety - and precious little understanding. I don't think he really even wants to govern in a way: he likes giving orders and feeling important, but he doesn't care that much about what gets carried out except where it benefits him personally. But back to the bovine and porcelain analogy, I do think a lot of people are moving the china out of his path, and hurriedly sweeping it up behind him when they can't get there in time. In that sense, yes we get both good cover-ups alongside staggering incompetence of decision-making. The former is preventing us seeing so much of the latter.
 

Agema

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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/17/g7-trump-miami-doral-resort-venue-next-summit

Not entirely unrelated, and it's not worth a new thread for, but... What a surprise, the Trump administration has decided to hand another one his resorts a windfall using public money by giving the G7 summit hosting to it.
 

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tstorm823 said:
TrulyBritish said:
I can't wait to hear how tstorm defends this...
You might be waiting a while.

I promise you, my belief that Donald Trump isn't subtly coordinating international interference into US elections without ever leaving a paper trail connecting him directly to it is neither support nor compliment. I just think treating him as an evil supervillain is incredibly misguided. I think treating Trump as simultaneously really really good at espionage level cover-ups but hopelessly incompetent at actually doing the things being covered up is nonsense, but not because he's a good and righteous person, rather because he's a doofus and a narcissist with no concept of subtlety whatsoever.

This is exactly what a doofus narcissist without subtlety would do, I neither doubt it happened nor think he shouldn't be given appropriate punishment for any crimes committed. But if I had to guess what the crimes were, I don't think it's tax evasion. I'm with Agema here, the lower estimate of worth is probably closer to accurate.
Hey, do you think the Left see Jobs or Bezos or Musk as a supervillain?
 

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tstorm823 said:
trunkage said:
Hey, do you think the Left see Jobs or Bezos or Musk as a supervillain?
No, why?
The left is super critical of these guys as well. Like criminally. Treating people poorly, underhanded tactics, abusing the government systems to economic benefit, unfair wages, abusing power, sucking the bones dry out of workers then dumping them, asking NOT to pay taxes. (At least Trump tries to be sneaky about it) Pointing out that their bad ideas far outweigh their good ones. I.e. They're Robber barons

But somehow, those critiques don't lead to supervillany? But Trump's critique does? Sure, he is getting more heat at the moment, becuase he's the president. But that's exactly as it should be (and he has further issues around treatment of women.)

I get what your saying. No paper trail. Dont assume Trump is actually capable of pulling all this off. It's inconsistent with the assumption that he's incompetent. I do think he has a bunch of people who would fall on their sword for him (what's it up to now? 40 of his people now in jail? From just the last 4 years?) And this I don't understand. But then, there's a reason why I'm not rich. I'm not willing to suck up like that
 

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trunkage said:
The left is super critical of these guys as well. Like criminally. Treating people poorly, underhanded tactics, abusing the government systems to economic benefit, unfair wages, abusing power, sucking the bones dry out of workers then dumping them, asking NOT to pay taxes. (At least Trump tries to be sneaky about it) Pointing out that their bad ideas far outweigh their good ones. I.e. They're Robber barons

But somehow, those critiques don't lead to supervillany? But Trump's critique does? Sure, he is getting more heat at the moment, becuase he's the president. But that's exactly as it should be (and he has further issues around treatment of women.)

I get what your saying. No paper trail. Dont assume Trump is actually capable of pulling all this off. It's inconsistent with the assumption that he's incompetent. I do think he has a bunch of people who would fall on their sword for him (what's it up to now? 40 of his people now in jail? From just the last 4 years?) And this I don't understand. But then, there's a reason why I'm not rich. I'm not willing to suck up like that
There is more than one way to be more critical about someone. The president should get more heat because of the position of power, but that more heat should be more heat for the individual wrongdoings. Trump gets that, but also gets people making up wrongdoings to give heat over. Like the time they pretended he abruptly dumped all the fish food into the koi pond while Shinzo Abe fed carefully. Or the time they pretended he decided to let the pork industry regulate itself. Or the time we had a multi-year excruciating investigation in the Trump campaign not working with the Russians. Let's list some things that are supposedly Trump's fault: war in the Middle East, immigrant caravans, climate change, hurricanes, hate groups, terrorists, mass murderers, Russian interference, Ukrainian interference, every downward blip in the stock market, every industry that has troubles, and most of the division in America. To be at fault for all of the accusations aimed at Trump, he'd have to be a supervillain.
 

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tstorm823 said:
Let's list some things that are supposedly Trump's fault: war in the Middle East, immigrant caravans, climate change, hurricanes, hate groups, terrorists, mass murderers, Russian interference, Ukrainian interference, every downward blip in the stock market, every industry that has troubles, and most of the division in America. To be at fault for all of the accusations aimed at Trump, he'd have to be a supervillain.
Quite a few of those things have been severely exacerbated by the US administration. I've never seen anyone say he's solely (or even primarily) responsible for those things, only that he's made them substantially worse... which is true.
 

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Silvanus said:
tstorm823 said:
Let's list some things that are supposedly Trump's fault: war in the Middle East, immigrant caravans, climate change, hurricanes, hate groups, terrorists, mass murderers, Russian interference, Ukrainian interference, every downward blip in the stock market, every industry that has troubles, and most of the division in America. To be at fault for all of the accusations aimed at Trump, he'd have to be a supervillain.
Quite a few of those things have been severely exacerbated by the US administration. I've never seen anyone say he's solely (or even primarily) responsible for those things, only that he's made them substantially worse... which is true.
It's also worth noting that the 'blip in the stock market' bit is a pretty bad example of the claimed unfair treatment for a few reasons. The more petty of the reasons being that Trump and his base alike tend to give him full ownership of the upticks despite much of them being largely attributable to other factors. See for instance Fox characterizing it as "Trump's Blazing Stock Market", and Trump's own claim that it's no coincidence that he's presiding over "the best stock market and economy in our history". As a tangential Fun fact: The Stock Market was actually showing stronger performance under Obama, and has thus far approximated that under LBJ and Bush Sr. But back to the point. The uptick most directly attributable to Trump would be the 15 month bull market early in his term which is attributed to optimism regarding his promised tax cuts, but while Trump and the people hyping his brand like to say "Trump did this", as a bill that went through standard process it's more attributable to Congress than it is to Trump.

Tangenitally, while Trump and his base like to claim it's the strongest market in history...the market is not performing as well as they claim. As noted in Bloomberg Businessweek, the market is basically at the same point it was 21 months ago, and that "Frustrated traders were left to lament that it has taken the better part of two years for the index to advance all of 15 points", and economic data is hinting at the possibility of another recession in the near future. As they aptly sum up:

But what tax cuts gave by way of optimistic forecasts, Trump?s trade war has taken away. Persistent uncertainty has led companies to cut back on investment spending, while confidence has faltered.

"Ultimately, it?s all Trump, because you can blame trade and tariffs on Trump," said Susan Schmidt, head of U.S. equities at Aviva Investors. "It's noise that's cascading out of actions from the administration. We have stalled out because we need another tailwind and nothing is there. If anything, the headwinds are keeping the market from moving up."
That's where it gets really 'fun'. Trump et al are quick to claim credit for the market's upticks, but they're equally quick to cry foul when others attribute its downticks to Trump...and there's a better case for the latter than the former, due to many of those downticks being tied to Trump's executive actions, which unlike signing a bill puts the responsibility more firmly on his head. As Forbes notes, while a 15 month bull market in his first year can be attributed to the tax cuts he signed, this was followed by dips attributable to the trade war, several failed attempts to restart the bull market, and trade volatility attributable to Trump's insistence on using tariffs as a blunt weapon. To quote the article directly:

Can the gain be attributed to President Trump?

This question addresses the need to properly assign credit. Here, too, we have to look at the two different periods.

In the first market, Congress, particularly the Senate, played its traditional role in creating and passing the tax bill. While President Trump had some influence and signed the bill, much of the credit belongs to Congress.

In the second market, President Trump plays the major role, particularly in using emergency powers to set tariffs rather than following the traditional path through Congress. Likewise, trade discussions appear to lack input from Congress. Therefore, Trump can be credited with this second market period.
The bottom line

President Trump, while taking actions that he feels are supportive of the U.S. economy and U.S. businesses in general, has had only short-term, positive effects. At this point, the overall results, as measured by the stock market, are negative.
 

Trunkage

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tstorm823 said:
trunkage said:
The left is super critical of these guys as well. Like criminally. Treating people poorly, underhanded tactics, abusing the government systems to economic benefit, unfair wages, abusing power, sucking the bones dry out of workers then dumping them, asking NOT to pay taxes. (At least Trump tries to be sneaky about it) Pointing out that their bad ideas far outweigh their good ones. I.e. They're Robber barons

But somehow, those critiques don't lead to supervillany? But Trump's critique does? Sure, he is getting more heat at the moment, becuase he's the president. But that's exactly as it should be (and he has further issues around treatment of women.)

I get what your saying. No paper trail. Dont assume Trump is actually capable of pulling all this off. It's inconsistent with the assumption that he's incompetent. I do think he has a bunch of people who would fall on their sword for him (what's it up to now? 40 of his people now in jail? From just the last 4 years?) And this I don't understand. But then, there's a reason why I'm not rich. I'm not willing to suck up like that
There is more than one way to be more critical about someone. The president should get more heat because of the position of power, but that more heat should be more heat for the individual wrongdoings. Trump gets that, but also gets people making up wrongdoings to give heat over. Like the time they pretended he abruptly dumped all the fish food into the koi pond while Shinzo Abe fed carefully. Or the time they pretended he decided to let the pork industry regulate itself. Or the time we had a multi-year excruciating investigation in the Trump campaign not working with the Russians. Let's list some things that are supposedly Trump's fault: war in the Middle East, immigrant caravans, climate change, hurricanes, hate groups, terrorists, mass murderers, Russian interference, Ukrainian interference, every downward blip in the stock market, every industry that has troubles, and most of the division in America. To be at fault for all of the accusations aimed at Trump, he'd have to be a supervillain.
Made up wrongdoings? I remember when Obama was a traitor to America because of Obamacare. Or that he was an African Muslim sent to start the white genocide. Or that any mention of guns by Obama meant he was going to take them all by force. Pedo ring under a pizza restaurant, anyone.

Heres the difference that I see. Trump reacts poorly to these outlandish claims. And his followers defend him without thought. (The second one isn't a difference, that's common for Obama too.) Obama just let it roll off his back. Trump makes a big scene.