Making Game of Thrones about the "good guys" and the "bad guys". (Book spoilers)

[TheSlothOverlord]

Does anyone else have a slight problem with people making the series into some kind of good vs evil thing?
I really noticed this after the last episode, with people complaining how once again the "bad guys" have won.

For me the best thing about The Song of Ice and Fire (and by extension the show) is that it's simply about people with their own characters, goals and motivations. People who, just like in reality, suffer as a result of their own actions (as well as misfortune).

Like the fight between Oberyn and The Mountain. Oberyn doesn't die because he was somehow too cool or too good. He dies because he went in with a cocky and arrogant attitude, drank before the fight, tried to get a confession instead of killing his opponent and let his guard down around one of the strongest and most brutal fighters in Westeros. His death was certainly gruesome and gut-wrenching, but it really didn't just come out of the blue.

Same goes for Ned and Robb Stark. They didn't die because they were somehow too noble for that world, but because they made downright suicidal decisions (although I guess they did come as a result of them being too honorable).

But I think that the best example is Tywin. I've often seen him being called "evil", but I don't really view him as such. I would rather say that he's simply amoral - he does unethical things not because he enjoys to, but because it's what he deems as necessary. He wins, because he knows how to play the game of thrones. BUT

Spoiler: spoilers for the end of ASOS

that doesn't mean that he doesn't make mistakes. While he's excellent at political games and intrigues, he is an absolutely terrible parent, forming abusive and pathological relations with his children. A fact that comes back at him and puts a crossobow belt in his guts.

Anyway, what do you guys think? By the way, English isn't my first language, so I welcome any corrections regarding my grammar, spelling or punctuation ^^

 

[BloatedGuppy]

For an English as a 2nd language guy, you're doing better than most English as a first language folks I know. Keep it up.

As for the topic...while I agree with you in principle, you're going to have a hard time convincing doubters there are no good guys/bad guys after an episode which included victories for both Gregor Clegane and Ramsay Snow, two of the more despicable characters in FICTION, let alone Game of Thrones.

 

[TheIronRuler]

I totally agree with you. I said the same about the battle between the Mountain and Oberyn.

You're fine with your English. Some polish won't hurt, but you're on the right path. English is also not my mother-tongue. Right on, mate!

Spoiler: Spoilers. Obviously

About Ned, let me say that at no point was he supposed to die (at least that's what the main characters thought), and had it not been for Geoffry's maniacal personality he would have kept his head (literally). He wasn't supposed to be executed - but the underlings followed after his orders anyway. This is why one of them was sent to the wall and the other is...well...motherfucking Iiyn Payne. Nobody fucks with Payne. Geoffry was supposed to be manipulated by his mother - it didn't work out so well. The bastard's arrogancy cost him his life and possibly the throne (they haven't got to that part yet...).

Robb totally died because he was too noble for that world (in the book, at least). Like father, like son, his over-sized sense of honor made him marry a westerling after he bedded her (because of HONOR!), costing him the alliance with the freys and his head (quite literally, yet again). This was a part of the tragic end of Robb and the Starks. Oh, you can't call the crippled boy-wizard, the assassin girl or the pretty princess peon a proper continuation of the Stark house... Then again, I do wonder where the hell they put the little kid, whatshisname, oh... Good luck with finding him *cough* in skagos *cough* Davos!...

Yet, Tywin is the epitomy of real-politik. He only wants for what's best for his family. He even worked towards sending his son to the wall (Tyrion) when he's condemned of killing his nephew because Tywin couldn't stand to watch his son die. He's torn between his children, mostly because the only one with the balls to rule the seven kingdoms and inherit him - has no balls, quite literally. He's one of the better characters in the series and wholly relate-able, especially after you learn of his past (His father's whore going through a walk of shame, restoring the family honor, reigning supreme over the west and maintaining a facade of wealth even after all of the mines are gone...). Yeah, his death is kinda funny at the end. Just having the payout for "Does Tywin Lannister Shit Gold?" makes up for the fluff in book four and EVERYTHING wrong in the series. I loved that scene.

"Where do whores go?".

I'm so sad this won't go on the HBO show (probably). The Tyrion quest for truth part, I mean, not the murder. THEY LOVE 'EM MURDERS!

 

[fezgod]

Agreed. People who get upset at Game of Thrones because 'the bad guys always win' or something along those lines really don't understand what the point of the show/book series is. There are no good guys or bad guys - some characters are a lighter shade of grey but there is no good and evil.

Plus, for those viewers who insist on watching the show with a 'good vs evil' mentality, don't worry, there will be some hope spots for you by the end of this season.

Spoiler: Spoilers for viewers who haven't read the books

Lady Stoneheart
Tyrion's escape + Tywin's death
Stannis saving the Night's Watch

 

[TheSlothOverlord]

I totally agree with you. I said the same about the battle between the Mountain and Oberyn.

You're fine with your English. Some polish won't hurt, but you're on the right path. English is also not my mother-tongue. Right on, mate!

I actually got confused for a second there because I'm Polish xD. Then I realized you meant the verb.
But yeah, I have sometimes trouble putting my thoughts into words and end up with awkward sentences.

Spoiler: That's gonna be one massive spoiler box

About Ned, let me say that at no point was he supposed to die (at least that's what the main characters thought), and had it not been for Geoffry's maniacal personality he would have kept his head (literally). He wasn't supposed to be executed - but the underlings followed after his orders anyway. This is why one of them was sent to the wall and the other is...well...motherfucking Iiyn Payne. Nobody fucks with Payne. Geoffry was supposed to be manipulated by his mother - it didn't work out so well. The bastard's arrogancy cost him his life and possibly the throne (they haven't got to that part yet...).

That's true, but it is his sense of honour that got him in that situation in the first place. 1. Because he was hell-bent on putting the "legitimate" king on the throne. 2. Because he gave Cersei a chance to escape with her children instead of just doing a swift coup (although I'm not sure if I got that part quite right, It's been a while since I read the books).

Robb totally died because he was too noble for that world (in the book, at least). Like father, like son, his over-sized sense of honor made him marry a westerling after he bedded her (because of HONOR!), costing him the alliance with the freys and his head (quite literally, yet again). This was a part of the tragic end of Robb and the Starks. Oh, you can't call the crippled boy-wizard, the assassin girl or the pretty princess peon a proper continuation of the Stark house... Then again, I do wonder where the hell they put the little kid, whatshisname, oh... Good luck with finding him *cough* in skagos *cough* Davos!...

I don't know if I can quite explain the nuance that I meant. What I mean is, he didn't die because George Martin has some kind of seething hatred for noble characters (which is what some people seem to think), it's because his nobility logically made him do things which were politically unsound (is that a word?), which you have explained very well in your post.

Yet, Tywin is the epitomy of real-politik. He only wants for what's best for his family. He even worked towards sending his son to the wall (Tyrion) when he's condemned of killing his nephew because Tywin couldn't stand to watch his son die.

I never thought of it that way, I was under the impression that he simply hated Tyrion. Which is ALSO one of the reasons why I really like him as a character. His cold demeanor and calculated moves might make you think that he is some kind of robot. After all there is no logical reason for his loathing towards Tyrion. But his hatred shows that he is very well capable of being irrational (as he seems to blame Tyrion for her death) and shows that he truly cared about his wife (if you believe the SoIaF wiki). Her death might be also the reason he became cold and abusive towards his children (aside from the fact that he wanted the Lannisters to became feared and respected again).

Yeah, his death is kinda funny at the end. Just having the payout for "Does Tywin Lannister Shit Gold?" makes up for the fluff in book four and EVERYTHING wrong in the series. I loved that scene.

I loved it too. It was great, I love some morbid humour!

Although if there is one detail from "Where do whores go?".

I'm so sad this won't go on the HBO show (probably). The Tyrion quest for truth part, I mean, not the murder. THEY LOVE 'EM MURDERS!

I actually think that this would be quite important. If I'm right it's Jaimes revelation about Tysha that makes Tyrion kill Tywin (so many Tys...). Now if there is one detail from the books that I would love to see in the show (but which probably won't be in) is how some lady from the Lannister branch says how Tyrion is Tywins true son.

EDIT: Ok I cleaned it up.

 

[TheIronRuler]

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You have to spoiler your responses QUICK before people accidentally read my and your spoilers. QUICK!

I'll respond in a bit, but first - hide them spoilers!

 

[TheSlothOverlord]

Spoiler

Lady Stoneheart

Spoiler

Hmm I'm not sure about Lady Stoneheart... I don't know how many of the books you've read (I've read all), so I don't want to spoil too much, but she's not the same Catelyn Stark that we knew.

 

[TheSlothOverlord]

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You have to spoiler your responses QUICK before people accidentally read my and your spoilers. QUICK!

I'll respond in a bit, but first - hide them spoilers!

Right on it, I've had some problems with it, but I think I figured it out!

 

[TheIronRuler]

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You have to spoiler your responses QUICK before people accidentally read my and your spoilers. QUICK!

I'll respond in a bit, but first - hide them spoilers!

Right on it, I've had some problems with it, but I think I figured it out!

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Here is my response...

Spoiler

He means that Catelyn survives, kinda, at the end (through Stoneheart).

You're spot on with Ned. You're also right about his offer to ceresi. Damn it, why didn't he listen to littlefinger? Oh, BECAUSE HE HAS HONOR.

Yep, you're also right about Robb, and I didn't disagree.

Nope, Tywin doesn't hate his son. He blames him for murdering his wife, yes, but he doesn't hate his son. He hates him being a dwarf, but he doesn't hate Tyrion himself. You can clearly see that during the trial. Even though Tywin doesn't believe Tyrion didn't kill Geoffry, he still wants him to live. He loves his son so much he won't let him be killed for regicide (and killing his own grandchild!).

I don't think Tyrion will join up with esos (easteros? Whatever that other continent is called) . Dorne makes me hopeful for the burnt prince bit with the dragons, which could mean there's a Tyrion-Mormont odd-couples in store for the future... But then again, there's no dwarf jousting, so half of that plot can go to hell (without that dwarf chick whose name I forgot... piggy?).

That lady is Genna, Jenna, something like that... She's Tywin's sister and Tyrion's aunt. She knows what she's talking about!

 

[TheSlothOverlord]

Spoiler

He means that Catelyn survives, kinda, at the end (through Stoneheart).

I know. However, she comes back cruel and vengeful. I mean she just hangs Podrick only because he has ties with the Lannisters!

Nope, Tywin doesn't hate his son. He blames him for murdering his wife, yes, but he doesn't hate his son. He hates him being a dwarf, but he doesn't hate Tyrion himself. You can clearly see that during the trial. Even though Tywin doesn't believe Tyrion didn't kill Geoffry, he still wants him to live. He loves his son so much he won't let him be killed for regicide (and killing his own grandchild!).

I don't think Tyrion will join up with esos (easteros? Whatever that other continent is called) . Dorne makes me hopeful for the burnt prince bit with the dragons, which could mean there's a Tyrion-Mormont odd-couples in store for the future... But then again, there's no dwarf jousting, so half of that plot can go to hell (without that dwarf chick whose name I forgot... piggy?).

That lady is Genna, Jenna, something like that... She's Tywin's sister and Tyrion's aunt. She knows what she's talking about!

The continent is called Essos . What you say about Tywin makes sense. I guess if he just hated him he would've just executed him on the spot after the Purple Wedding.
There was the dwarf fight at the Purple Wedding, so I think that the female dwarf might appear. Seeing that she's sort of Tyrion's new love interest, I think she's somewhat important to the plot. TYrion-Mormont is kinda interesting, although probably won't be as amusing as Tyrion-Bronn.

 

[TheIronRuler]

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Here's another response: (BTW if you spoiled the whole thing I won't get a message saying you quoted me).

Spoiler

Nope, Podrick doesn't die. If the words Brienne said before she got hanged saved her (she sold Jaime out), then Podrick must have also been spared by Stoneheart (or is held prisoner, which is why she can run away when Stoneheart releases her).

 

[TheSlothOverlord]

Here's another response: (BTW if you spoiled the whole thing I won't get a message saying you quoted me).

I didn't know that, thanks for the info.

Spoiler

Nope, Podrick doesn't die. If the words Brienne said before she got hanged saved her (she sold Jaime out), then Podrick must have also been spared by Stoneheart (or is held prisoner, which is why she can run away when Stoneheart releases her).

Oh, I see. That's a relief since he was one of my favourite characters!

 

[fezgod]

Spoiler

Lady Stoneheart

Spoiler

Hmm I'm not sure about Lady Stoneheart... I don't know how many of the books you've read (I've read all), so I don't want to spoil too much, but she's not the same Catelyn Stark that we knew.

Spoiler

What I meant about Lady Stoneheart was that show-only viewers will probably have a "fuck yeah!" response to her, especially if she's hanging Freys. I doubt that they'll include Brienne's hanging this season, since there's a lot of material that'll be in the last episode, so Catelyn's revival will be viewed as a good thing by show-only readers.

Plus Lady Stoneheart won't look as grotesque in the show as the books. She's gonna be missing the shredded face and probably won't be as decayed as she is in the book.

Also I've read all the books. In my opinion, the show is going to be finished before all the books are out - especially since this season already has ADWD and AFFC stuff.

 

[balladbird]

Ehh, I don't think the complaints necessarily try to force the characters into a "good vs. Evil" thing, so much as to complain about how it's the absolute worst of people who ever seem to get their way in the series.

Yeah, the appeal of the series is the moral ambiguity of it, and there aren't really any "good" guys. There are, however, plenty of people who aren't abiguous in the least. they're villains without even the slightest of appealing characteristics and traits, and they tend to come out furthest ahead in the series. It doesn't bother me, since the story isn't over yet, but I can certainly see why it would bother others.

Take the boltons. there is no "complexity" nor "ambiguity" to the boltons. they're terrible, terrible human beings. Ditto for the Mountain. The Freys had reason to despise and even betray the Starks, so they're more ambiguous than the Boltons, but obviously their manner is going to make it hard for a modern audience to enjoy seeing them do well. Which northern houses are currently the most powerful? Yeah, that sucks. I don't fault anyone whose enjoyment of the story is impeded by this fact.

The Lannisters get a bad rap. Pretty much the only ones who are devoid of redeeming qualities are Cersei and Joffery. Tywin is intense and single-minded, but not unreasonable or bloodthirsty, and Jaime and Tyrion are two of the deepest shades of gray in the entire cast.

The boltons, freys, and Mountain, though are not a fun group to see winning at anything. XD Hell, frustration at how the world seems to reward the Mountain for being the single worst human being in westeros was a pretty big part of The Hound becoming as jaded as he is.

 

[Dandark]

While I agree it s not a tradition good vs evil story, it's attempt to be gray is kinda hampered b many of the characters who do well being completely and totally evil.

The lannisters are pretty gray even though most see them as the villains. Joffrey is the only one wo really seems completely evil, other than him they all have their shades of grey.

Some of the other families though like the Frey's and especially the Bolton's(Or at least Ramsay) are portrayed as so incredibly evil that it's so hard to not see them as antagonists that need to die for the series to end in any kind of enjoyable fashion.

I find most of the factions alright but there are a few that seem to act evil simply for the sake of the story having evil characters.

 

[Hades]

As for as the two main families are concerned i absolutely agree. I never saw the Starks as the heroes and the Lannisters as the villains. I considered the Starks the protagonists and the Lannisters the Deuteragonist of the series.

 

[Grouchy Imp_v1legacy]

I agree with you, OP. The thing that sets ASOIAF apart for me is the (almost) complete lack of good/bad guys. Most characters are, from their own point of view, doing what is best for them and theirs. I think this was best highlighted in the books when we began to get Jaime's personal chapters (rather than him just being a character in the various Stark viewpoints) and we saw the world through his eyes.

For the record I have no idea how this was/is portrayed in the HBO series - I'm one of those stuffy purists who, whilst acknowledging that books need to be adapted for TV due to the differences in the mediums, cannot bear to see the original material messed with. I managed to harrumph and splutter my way through the first series - just - but haven't bothered with it since then.

 

[Kingjackl]

I don't know. Everyone says that about the series, that it's morally grey and that there is no good or evil, but I don't really think that's the case. There's certainly a few characters who are grey (Stannis springs to mind), but you can't really say that applies to everyone.

Take the fight between Oberyn and the Mountain. Yes, Oberyn may have been an arrogant prick, but he was also fighting to avenge a loved one who suffered a horrible fate, which is about as righteous a goal as you can get in revenge stories. And leaving all that aside, he was still a decent, liberal-minded man by all accounts. Whereas the Mountain was a mass-murdering, raping psycho who went around pillaging, slaughtering and generally committing war crimes. The fact that he set fire to his own brother's face over a supposedly childish squabble about toys tells you everything you need to know. Yes, the good guy in this situation was certainly flawed, but the divide between the two of them was still fairly clear.

Removing good and evil isn't really what Game of Thrones is all about. It has heroes, but it's willing to give them flaws, often quite serious character flaws, something that you don't see often enough in fiction. As for the villains, what it really does to set itself apart is that it doesn't externalize them (White Walkers notwithstanding). I believe George R. R. Martin himself said that what sets 'A Song of Ice and Fire' apart from other fantasy series is that the villains aren't evil Sauron-type figures who only exist as an malevolent force outside the plot. You can see that with the Lannisters, who aren't simply a collective villainous faction. Cersei is evil, Tyrion is good, Twyin is pragmatic and Jaime is maturing and developing into a more honorable figure than he first appeared to be.

 

[TheSlothOverlord]

Ehh, I don't think the complaints necessarily try to force the characters into a "good vs. Evil" thing, so much as to complain about how it's the absolute worst of people who ever seem to get their way in the series.

Yeah, the appeal of the series is the moral ambiguity of it, and there aren't really any "good" guys. There are, however, plenty of people who aren't abiguous in the least. they're villains without even the slightest of appealing characteristics and traits, and they tend to come out furthest ahead in the series. It doesn't bother me, since the story isn't over yet, but I can certainly see why it would bother others.

That's because the show is about politics and intrigues. You don't get very far in these by being righteous and honorable (case in point: Ned and Robb Stark). I guess some people use the terms "good guys and bad guys" as a shorthand for characters that are more and less sympathetic, but some of them do seem to treat the series as as good vs evil thing with clear protagonists and antagonists.

Take the boltons. there is no "complexity" nor "ambiguity" to the boltons. they're terrible, terrible human beings. Ditto for the Mountain. The Freys had reason to despise and even betray the Starks, so they're more ambiguous than the Boltons, but obviously their manner is going to make it hard for a modern audience to enjoy seeing them do well. Which northern houses are currently the most powerful? Yeah, that sucks. I don't fault anyone whose enjoyment of the story is impeded by this fact.

Actually, Roose Bolton is one of my favourite characters xD. I got a thing for cold-blooded schemers. I said that Tywin was amoral, but Roose is even more amoral. There is no good or evil for him, just a moderately entertaining game. As for Ramsay, he is a deranged psychopath and such people have also been in positions of power through the course of history.
And as for the Freys... I would once again want to stress the fact that the series is about actions and its consequences. And the Freys have violated one of the most sacred customs in Westeros (and this is a medieval world, so people are going to be quite superstitious), it's hard to imagine that they can get away with it just like that (that's not a spoiler, just a speculation on my part).

The Lannisters get a bad rap. Pretty much the only ones who are devoid of redeeming qualities are Cersei and Joffery. Tywin is intense and single-minded, but not unreasonable or bloodthirsty, and Jaime and Tyrion are two of the deepest shades of gray in the entire cast.

I've always regarded the Lannisters as a somewhat tragic family, rather than the typical "bad guys".

The boltons, freys, and Mountain, though are not a fun group to see winning at anything. XD Hell, frustration at how the world seems to reward the Mountain for being the single worst human being in westeros was a pretty big part of The Hound becoming as jaded as he is.

Well...

Spoiler: Season 4 end spoiler

The Mountain isn't really getting away.

 

[TheSlothOverlord]

For the record I have no idea how this was/is portrayed in the HBO series - I'm one of those stuffy purists who, whilst acknowledging that books need to be adapted for TV due to the differences in the mediums, cannot bear to see the original material messed with. I managed to harrumph and splutter my way through the first series - just - but haven't bothered with it since then.

I've generally been pleased with the show. Some of the actors give such a good performance, that characters I didn't care much about in the books become my favourites (for example Syrio Forel).
Nevertheless my only major issue is how (especially in Season 4) they seem to be forefully trying to make Game of Thrones even edgier(for example making a scene with consensual sex from the books into rape). It's like - this is ASoIaF, you don't need to make it any darker!