Male problems only ever come up as a counter-argument

[Erttheking]

Men have to deal with a lot of problems. Violent deaths, possibly being ostracized by our peers if we don't fit into a stupid overly masculine stereotype, a massive stigma against acting feminine lest we be accused of having the gay (Seriously, this irritates me so much I want to make out with the nearest man just to make a point.) high suicide rates, a lack of support if they're suffering from domestic abuse or sexual assault and that's just the tip of the iceberg and without going into problems that men in minorities have (Blacks men in America in particular get the short end of it.)

So why the Hell is all of this only ever brought up to shut up someone else up? Seriously, I rarely see anyone saying ANYTHING about this stuff is when someone else is trying to talk about their problems (Yes I'm talking about feminism here, but I'm trying to avoid it talking about it because mentioning it always causes the argument to be derailed). And that drives me insane. Logically I thought that the people who bring them up as counter-arguments would really be invested in male problems, but when there isn't a discussion about feminism going on, they never really get brought up.

This bothers me. I'm a man and I've gone through a good deal of bullshit. I had a bit of a bullying problem in high school because I was the quiet shy kid and not a loud abrasive asshole, I've had people say something to the effect of "Oh, well I guess you think you're some sort of exception to the gender" when I mentioned that I wasn't a massive horndog constantly trying to get laid during my teenage years, and just yesterday an old woman was grabbing my hands at work, if the genders had been reversed the police would've been called. And yet no one really brings up these problems unless it's to shut up someone else's arguments.

The problems men have to go through deserve to be more than that. Maybe I'm wrong, I HOPE I'm wrong, but seeing men's problems talked about online is a rare thing. Am I wrong? If so please tell me. Do you know of any places where they're talked about in a constructive way? Have you seen them discussed here in a significant way? Why do you think they're never talked about? How do you think that can be fixed?

(Oh, and something sad? The most I've seen online talking about male problems is a feminist Tumblr account I follow. Yeah, as much as people like to talk about Tumblr as being Misandric, all the talking about male problems that I've seen online have come from Tumblr.)

Capatcha: Half Empty. Well that's pessimistic

 

[Thaluikhain]

Oh yeah, endlessly frustrating that most people only care about, for example, male prison rape, in order to "prove" that female rape shouldn't be seen as an issue, while generally seeing it as hilarious or necessary at other times. And it's still feminists that hate men, apparently.

The problems men have to go through deserve to be more than that. Maybe I'm wrong, I HOPE I'm wrong, but seeing men's problems talked about online is a rare thing. Am I wrong? If so please tell me. Do you know of any places where they're talked about in a constructive way? Have you seen them discussed here in a significant way? Why do you think they're never talked about? How do you think that can be fixed?

(Oh, and something sad? The most I've seen online talking about male problems is a feminist Tumblr account I follow. Yeah, as much as people like to talk about Tumblr as being Misandric, all the talking about male problems that I've seen online have come from Tumblr.)

Lots of feminists and feminist sites talk about men's problems. I'd recommend Shakesville (though that talks about all sorts of social problems, so only a small part is about men).

 

[Erttheking]

Oh yeah, endlessly frustrating that most people only care about, for example, male prison rape, in order to "prove" that female rape shouldn't be seen as an issue, while generally seeing it as hilarious or necessary at other times. And it's still feminists that hate men, apparently.

The problems men have to go through deserve to be more than that. Maybe I'm wrong, I HOPE I'm wrong, but seeing men's problems talked about online is a rare thing. Am I wrong? If so please tell me. Do you know of any places where they're talked about in a constructive way? Have you seen them discussed here in a significant way? Why do you think they're never talked about? How do you think that can be fixed?

(Oh, and something sad? The most I've seen online talking about male problems is a feminist Tumblr account I follow. Yeah, as much as people like to talk about Tumblr as being Misandric, all the talking about male problems that I've seen online have come from Tumblr.)

Lots of feminists and feminist sites talk about men's problems. I'd recommend Shakesville (though that talks about all sorts of social problems, so only a small part is about men).

A small part talking about male problems is a hell of a lot better than no part talking about male problems.

 

[the December King]

It's certainly crossed my mind that men have their own problems and that they deserve their discussion spaces, and that using them in any form like a yardstick in the oppression Olympics is a terribly shallow gesture for most people to make- myself included, I'm sure. It can be hard to give other people's issues their own room to be heard and discussed without reflexively trying to relate something to it, or find some sort of commonality, instead of just listening and accepting what is being said.

I've noticed in the past that you have started threads concerning men's issues for the sake of open discourse. I have always read them, occasionally participated, and will continue to do so.

EDIT: I'd also love to talk about these problems, but this no longer strikes me as a good place to do so, as anyone chiming in in an honest attempt to talk about these things is usually assumed to be attacking someone else's precious 'side' and no quarter is given/ no meaningful discussion is had, just point scoring.

 

[Eclipse Dragon]

I would guess because it's also a stereotype that men shouldn't talk about their problems.

 

[Rylot]

Yeah, that does seem to happen a fair amount. Using men's issues to silence discussions about other group's issues helps neither group. Group B having problems doesn't mean that groups A doesn't either.

 

[Erttheking]

I would guess because it's also a stereotype that men shouldn't talk about their problems.

Yeah...that's part of the whole stupid masculine ideals. Men who talk about their problems are pussies.

 

[manic_depressive13]

You think women have the luxury of calling the police because someone grabbed their hands? I feel bad calling you out because at least you're trying. But come the fuck on.

 

[Erttheking]

You think women have the luxury of calling the police because someone grabbed their hands? I feel bad calling you out because at least you're trying. But come the fuck on.

An old man grabbing a woman would pretty much always be seen as a creepy old pervert. Especially if it had been someone as insistive as the woman who grabbed me, especially considering that I told her to stop and kept trying to push her off.

Is this really something worth getting hung up over?

 

[Aesir23]

I would honestly like to see open discussion about men's issues as well. Unfortunately, like you, I've only ever seen these things brought up in order to try and silence another person who is trying to talk about the issues affecting another group.

My own brother was bullied tremendously in school for not fitting in with the macho man stereotype plus I've known both male and female rape victims over the course of my life. So I definitely believe that there are genuine issues facing men today and ones I would like to see fixed along with issues facing other groups. It doesn't do anyone any favours when a group's issues are primarily brought up as a way to say "we have it worse" like they're trying to render the other person's complaints as null and void.

 

[manic_depressive13]

An old man grabbing a woman would pretty much always be seen as a creepy old pervert. Especially if it had been someone as insistive as the woman who grabbed me, especially considering that I told her to stop and kept trying to push her off.

Is this really something worth getting hung up over?

Yeah, because I'm sick of people pretending that women's sexual assault is taken seriously. Like women aren't forced to deal with it all the time with no recourse.

I'm constantly seeing these "Well! If I were a woman..." If you were a woman the only difference it would make to that situation is that it would happen more often.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is.
Men are assumed guilty and never don't want sex...and so what? Wasn't that something we all already knew?

 

[Erttheking]

An old man grabbing a woman would pretty much always be seen as a creepy old pervert. Especially if it had been someone as insistive as the woman who grabbed me, especially considering that I told her to stop and kept trying to push her off.

Is this really something worth getting hung up over?

Yeah, because I'm sick of people pretending that women's sexual assault is taken seriously. Like women aren't forced to deal with it all the time with no recourse.

I'm constantly seeing these "Well! If I were a woman..." If you were a woman the only difference it would make to that situation is that it would happen more often.

I'm not arguing against that. Hell originally my response was going to be more along the lines of "oh right I forgot, if I were a woman I would've been told it was because I addressed like a slut" but I decided against it because I didn't want to be passive aggressive.

Still, at least with women the problem gets freaking acknowledged sometimes. A big problem with men is that often it's not even considered a problem.

Look, what are you trying to get at? Have you seen my post history? I don't really tend to hold back on what I think about female sexism. I'm for both genders getting a less shit deal. This isn't an us vs them situation.

 

[Erttheking]

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is.
Men are assumed guilty and never don't want sex...and so what? Wasn't that something we all already knew?

That wasn't the point at all. The point I was making was that these problems only ever get brought up to shut someone else up. Sure, people KNOW about these problems, but they show a disturbing amount of apathy and indifference to them, choosing to not really say or do anything about them, and then next thing they know it goes out of the mind.

 

[omega 616]

The way I see it, as a guy, men have some problems and women have a great many problems. Neither race will have what they want 'cos we don't live in an idyllic world.

Men get raped but how many compared to women? Including and excluding prison rape. Men get domestically abused but how many compared to women?

It sounds a little like a whiny child to me, "why are women get all the attention? We have problems toooo", yeah of course you do but look at the state of the imbalance.

I'm not sure which is worse, people attacking feminism or people not talking about male issues. In one case people are actively working against it but on the other nobody is taking any notice of the issues.

 

[EvilRoy]

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is.
Men are assumed guilty and never don't want sex...and so what? Wasn't that something we all already knew?

That wasn't the point at all. The point I was making was that these problems only ever get brought up to shut someone else up. Sure, people KNOW about these problems, but they show a disturbing amount of apathy and indifference to them, choosing to not really say or do anything about them, and then next thing they know it goes out of the mind.

Because it is a straightforward, and more or less easier, way of dealing with the issue of equality. Basically, either men become more like women, and air their problems in the same extremely open ways, or women become more like men, and actively avoid discussion of issues.

In the case of openly airing issues there is some kind of impetus that something should be done by someone, in the case of ignoring or avoiding discussion of issues there is significantly less so. In both cases actual positive action is extremely unlikely, depending somewhat on the type or extent of the issue, so it is easier to take the "become more like men" method, so we don't constantly hear about problems no one actually intends or is able to solve.

 

[manic_depressive13]

I'm not arguing against that. Hell originally my response was going to be more along the lines of "oh right I forgot, if I were a woman I would've been told it was because I addressed like a slut" but I decided against it because I didn't want to be passive aggressive.

Still, at least with women the problem gets freaking acknowledged sometimes. A big problem with men is that often it's not even considered a problem.

Look, what are you trying to get at? Have you seen my post history? I don't really tend to hold back on what I think about female sexism. I'm for both genders getting a less shit deal. This isn't an us vs them situation.

I have seen your post history, which is why I mentioned a reluctance to call you out. I get it. You're One of the Good Ones. Go ahead and give yourself a pat on the back.

But I think it's clear that what I'm "trying to get at" is that there's a big difference between it being acknowledged, and having the option of calling the police. Pretending this is a real option for women in that situation is insulting and untrue. Since you revised your post, you should have removed that part too. You could simply have said men's sexual assault is rarely acknowledged, thus not diminishing women's issues.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Police have been called in response to sexual assault before. Yes there is a lot of bullshit that goes on with prosecuting it, yes there's problems with it showing up, but at least it actually happens.

I based my claim on the fact that the police would've been called on the basis that the managers at my store tried to get the picture of a man when he was just hitting on a cashier and keeping his hands to himself. I guess this is what happens when I live in a state that actually has standards...

Look PM me if you want to continue this conversation, this is derailing the thread.

 

[Rylot]

The way I see it, as a guy, men have some problems and women have a great many problems.

So why does that mean that men should never get a chance to discuss issues that do negatively effect them?

Men get raped but how many compared to women? Including and excluding prison rape. Men get domestically abused but how many compared to women?

Just because some of these issues effect women more than men doesn't mean it doesn't effect men and that open discussion of those issues for men shouldn't take place.

It sounds a little like a whiny child to me, "why are women get all the attention? We have problems toooo", yeah of course you do but look at the state of the imbalance.

It's kinda funny, to me, that you're arguing for what Ert is arguing against just from the other side of the issue.

In my opinion open and honest discussion is a good thing. Ert seems to be calling out responses to silence feminist discussions (by mentioning men have issues too), as bad for both feminist discussions and open and honest discussions of men's issues. I'd say your attempt at silencing him (or at least implying that he shouldn't be having this discussion) because women face more issues is just as damning.

Trying to silence discussion because another group has issues or another group faces more issues is bad for everyone involved.

 

[manic_depressive13]

Police have been called in response to sexual assault before. Yes there is a lot of bullshit that goes on with prosecuting it, yes there's problems with it showing up, but at least it actually happens.

I based my claim on the fact that the police would've been called on the basis that the managers at my store tried to get the picture of a man when he was just hitting on a cashier and keeping his hands to himself. I guess this is what happens when I live in a state that actually has standards...

Look PM me if you want to continue this conversation, this is derailing the thread.

Then your managers are deluded. At the end of the day I think that line about calling the police trivialises women's issues, and makes it into the 'us vs them' you wanted to avoid by pretending women have options we don't really have (and comparing it to men). Based on your previous post you seem to fancy yourself a feminist/ ally, yet your reaction to getting called out is to become angry and defensive, instead of just accepting you could have worded things better.

If you wanted this to continue through PM you could have just PM'd me.