Male problems only ever come up as a counter-argument

[Erttheking]

Snip

I brought up the meme after it was said that all women only wanted egotistical men who didn't care for them, and that the person who said that mentioned he was "sickened" with them. Needless to say, it didn't sit very well with me and came off as very "It's all the woman's fault."

Though I have to say overall, I'm sorry, I don't have a very high viewpoint of the whole nice guy thing. At the very best (Which to be fair is probably the case in most regards) it's misguided. The world isn't divided into being a sleazeballs and being friends with her first. Just go up to her, ask her out on a date and be polite about it. Of course, the biggest problem with being a nice guy is that being nice shouldn't be anything special. It should just be standard. And like the others saying, it's kind of creepy to be getting close to someone because you want something from them in return.

 

[Fox12]

And that's where everyone can see your hypocrisy, congratulation on virgin shaming! All that matters is that you continue saying that people who are against women are those who don't have sex, because logic!

Yes, virgin shaming, the oldest weapon in feminists arsenal, that doesn't even make sense when you think about it. But the important thing is that you still talk about slut shaming while doing the same exact the thing to men. IE, judge them on sexual activity, because feminism is such a good thing!

Whoa, when did anyone mention feminism, virgin shaming, or even sex?

And why on earth would anyone say they're against women? I mean, that's self admitted sexism, but I suppose you're right, it doesn't prove you're a virgin. I don't care if you are or not, though, and neither does erttheking, most likely. I do care that you went on this strange, anti-feminist tirade though. I think you've subconsciously revealed a lot about your frustrations in that post. My question, then, is why ARE you "against women?"

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

It's very disingenuous to automatically assume these guys are bad people and I would argue that mocking them IS IN DIRECT OPPOSITION to the OT. He's a man complaining about a problem he is having and you are calling him a horrible person when in all likelihood it's just a miscommunication problem.

I'd direct you to the post above yours. It's the part where it goes into villifying others that makes it stop just being some poor guy who didn't get the hint.

Also I don't think it is useful to just accept all men complaining about problems they are having. I prefer that we reserve the right to point out when they're more of the problem and not just mindlessly accept all complaints as valid.

Well that post wasn't there when I started typing my response

And I would just like to say that it's not helpful to be outright dismissive. You just breed more resentment and scare of other possible guys who are nice and could use some direction to get out of those positions.

Fair enough on it not being there, should have looked at the time stamps and considered the length of your post

Well if it was just bemoaning their own situation that'd be one thing. When they start being kind of nasty then any desire to be helpful to them kind of dies off.

That being said I have to say that if you want out of the friendzone you have to stop being friends. If she turns you down then you have to remember that she might have turned you down from the start and it's as simple as that.

Perhaps that's your dynamic with people but it's definitely not how it is for everyone. Me and my gf considered each other friends for a few years before we decided to get together.

I was trying to keep my answer concise so I didn't go into every possibility. If you're willing to be 'just' friends with a girl then after a while you realize there is something there that's different than what this guy was describing. And can I ask if you and your gf had 'that' talk, you know, about risking your friendship for something more? because that was the point of the first sentence; you have to be willing to give up being friends to get past the friendzone.

We didn't have like a specific talk about it, but she did mention worrying about that possibility. We agreed that we would ideally still want to be friends if anything should happen, though obviously you can't ever be certain about that kind of thing and we both know that. And yeah you do have to be willing to risk friendship, but the way you put it at first was you need to stop being friends. I'd definitely still say we act as friends too thus my objection to it.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

No. It isn't virgin shamming. It's self entitled twat shamming, something I have no shame in doing. The idea behind it is simple, guy thinks he's nice, he really isn't it, and then blames the woman because she can't see how great he is. I don't see what being a virgin has to do with it. I think you're projecting. No I didn't, do you even read my argument before you replied to me? I said that that was the argument that "Nice Guys" USED! Not that you were one of them! Because the insult you saw doesn't fucking exist, that's why. This is just like what you when people say "Patriarchy" and "Toxic masculinity." Automatically assume it's an attack and throw yourself into the position of a victim.

And then you just go off on a rant about feminism because apparently you've got an axe to grind with them. Uh, hate to break it to you pal, but men have a wide variety of tastes. Some like small breasts, some like fat women, some focus on the ass, some focus on the legs, some focus on hair, some focus on the eyes, some focus on feet. Don't say "All men like large breasts" because frankly it isn't true. You need to stop making sweeping generalizations about the genders, you're not good at it. Oh yeah...and men being attracted to large breasts has nothing to do with anything we're talking about. You went off on a random tangent. Again.

Ok, for that last comment, I don't know which response is the best, so take a pick.

1. You seem to call what I said shamming just because you didn't think it was nice
2. I'm not calling it shamming because it's not nice, I'm calling it shamming because it's a massive judgement that you make that frankly isn't true.
3. It's you arguing with emotion and not logic, so don't act like you made a strong point and I just don't want to admit it.

 

[UberPubert]

To conclude, IMO man simply need to release their frustration (in a worst case scenario) and then move on. We do not feel the need to tell others about our problems, unless it is something we can't deal with on our own. Like health issues, when there is an actual need to visit a specialist.

I like this post, it explains a lot of how I feel on the issue.

I don't know how or when being tough, self-sufficient, and dealing with problems on your own became a negative masculine trait, rather than a positive default trait for human beings everywhere, but this new trend doesn't sit well with me. A lot of posters here seem to conflate "not burdening yourself and others with your personal problems" to "bottling up all your emotions until you harm yourself or others" and it seems really dishonest for these same people to suppose that we can't find a happy medium on a site called "The Escapist", which concerns many pass-times people use to work off negative emotions.

In the name of social equality, I do believe that men should have access to the same support as women, whether they be domestic abuse shelters, funding for medical research, or legislation for equal rights. What I don't believe in, is turning everyone's personal insecurities into moral crusades, and that goes for men and women. No one here seems particularly convinced by the case of Nice Guys girl friends passing them up for a-hole boyfriends, am I really supposed to care when feminists begin whinging about manspreading and sweat-shaming?

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

To conclude, IMO man simply need to release their frustration (in a worst case scenario) and then move on. We do not feel the need to tell others about our problems, unless it is something we can't deal with on our own. Like health issues, when there is an actual need to visit a specialist.

I like this post, it explains a lot of how I feel on the issue.

I don't know how or when being tough, self-sufficient, and dealing with problems on your own became a negative masculine trait, rather than a positive default trait for human beings everywhere, but this new trend doesn't sit well with me. A lot of posters here seem to conflate "not burdening yourself and others with your personal problems" to "bottling up all your emotions until you harm yourself or others" and it seems really dishonest for these same people to suppose that we can't find a happy medium on a site called "The Escapist", which concerns many pass-times people use to work off negative emotions.

In the name of social equality, I do believe that men should have access to the same support as women, whether they be domestic abuse shelters, funding for medical research, or legislation for equal rights. What I don't believe in, is turning everyone's personal insecurities into moral crusades, and that goes for men and women. No one here seems particularly convinced by the case of Nice Guys girl friends passing them up for a-hole boyfriends, am I really supposed to care when feminists begin whinging about manspreading and sweat-shaming?

I wonder why people can't seem to separate this idea of personal problems and general social problems. Duh no one is saying people need to spill all their personal problems out. People are talking about trends where the problems are caused repeatedly by societal attitudes, not personal spats.

And no one is convinced because his complaint was easily flawed. What's with this silly notion that all complaints are equal.

 

[Synigma]

Snip

I brought up the meme after it was said that all women only wanted egotistical men who didn't care for them, and that the person who said that mentioned he was "sickened" with them. Needless to say, it didn't sit very well with me and came off as very "It's all the woman's fault."

Though I have to say overall, I'm sorry, I don't have a very high viewpoint of the whole nice guy thing. At the very best (Which to be fair is probably the case in most regards) it's misguided. The world isn't divided into being a sleazeballs and being friends with her first. Just go up to her, ask her out on a date and be polite about it. Of course, the biggest problem with being a nice guy is that being nice shouldn't be anything special. It should just be standard. And like the others saying, it's kind of creepy to be getting close to someone because you want something from them in return.

I get where you're coming from and I agree that it can be very poisonous. Personally I always used it as a reason to improve myself, looking inward for the problem instead of outward... and while it was constructive, blaming myself didn't help my confidence though, which ultimately was the main problem.

I think, I HOPE, most guys figure it out eventually because I know how much pain it can cause. I would guess that for every asshole that holds it against the women and lets it come out as misogyny (the ones that give 'Nice guys' their bad name) there is another guy out there that holds it against himself, silently hating himself. If we had more open conversations we could help them (both of them) before they make a mistake that can't be taken back...

 

[UberPubert]

I wonder why people can't seem to separate this idea of personal problems and general social problems.

Generally, when a lot of people have similar personal problems, they try to shift blame to society and say the onus is on others to fix their own issues. You see this in various anti "x-shaming" campaigns, where x takes the place of something people feel insecure in themselves about and then proceed to vastly overestimate how much other people care about it.

Duh no one is saying people need to spill all their personal problems out. People are talking about trends where the problems are caused repeatedly by societal attitudes, not personal spats.

As I've outlined above, the only difference between problems caused by "societal attitudes" and "personal spats" is the frequency at which everyone experiences them. If enough people are having the same problem and express it constantly to each other and their friends through social media, break-time gossip, etc., it becomes a wider problem that is actually just made up of many individual personal spats, not a single one that affects everyone.

And no one is convinced because his complaint was easily flawed. What's with this silly notion that all complaints are equal.

For complaints to be equal, they would first need to hold value, and they don't. Complaints are just a way for people to vent their frustrations and possibly open a dialogue on change. The value comes from the arguments made thereafter, not the initial objection.

For a less pedantic response: Maybe Nice Guys have a legitimate issue with the way society conditions them to approach women as "friends" because the average macho guy who innocently expresses his sexuality towards women he finds attractive is being constantly demonized in the media as the "asshole" archetype Nice Guys are trying so desperately to escape.

Do I think society needs to "fix" Nice Guys, though? No, I think most of them are waking up to reality just fine on their own, and good for them.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

I wonder why people can't seem to separate this idea of personal problems and general social problems.

Generally, when a lot of people have similar personal problems, they try to shift blame to society and say the onus is on others to fix their own issues. You see this in various anti "x-shaming" campaigns, where x takes the place of something people feel insecure in themselves about and then proceed to vastly overestimate how much other people care about it.

No that's not how it actually plays out. (Yes when people make claims and don't back them sometimes my response is just to say 'No')

Duh no one is saying people need to spill all their personal problems out. People are talking about trends where the problems are caused repeatedly by societal attitudes, not personal spats.

As I've outlined above, the only difference between problems caused by "societal attitudes" and "personal spats" is the frequency at which everyone experiences them. If enough people are having the same problem and express it constantly to each other and their friends through social media, break-time gossip, etc., it becomes a wider problem that is actually just made up of many individual personal spats, not a single one that affects everyone.

Outlined? I believe you mean claimed.

Affects everyone? Ah well I suppose when your weapon is pure rhetoric a smattering of hyperbole when talking about what others say is only to be expected.

And no one is convinced because his complaint was easily flawed. What's with this silly notion that all complaints are equal.

For complaints to be equal, they would first need to hold value, and they don't. Complaints are just a way for people to vent their frustrations and possibly open a dialogue on change. The value comes from the arguments made thereafter, not the initial objection.

A complaint needn't merely describe the initial objection. If you want to try pedantry try to get it right.

For a less pedantic response: Maybe Nice Guys have a legitimate issue with the way society conditions them to approach women as "friends" because the average macho guy who innocently expresses his sexuality towards women he finds attractive is being constantly demonized in the media as the "asshole" archetype Nice Guys are trying so desperately to escape.

Oh this absurd 'maybe'. No I'm not going to just go with maybe and anyone not trying to weasel around things wouldn't either. If it's the case make an argument for it. The one displayed failed and that's why it's rejected.

If you want the say it's the case prove it. I'm not going to be fooled by worthless maybes.

Do I think society needs to "fix" Nice Guys, though? No, I think most of them are waking up to reality just fine on their own, and good for them.

And?

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

The run out of real problems to talk about, so they have to make up problems or grasp and ampliphy anything that might be considered a problem (#ShirtGate).

Or, they could focus on issues women in the Third World have to deal with. Y'know, where things like genital mutilation, forced marriage to your rapist, and child brides are all things that are happening.

Though I guess air conditioning is more important.

 

[UberPubert]

No that's not how it actually plays out. (Yes when people make claims and don't back them sometimes my response is just to say 'No')

Basic Psychology of Human Rationalization.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hide-and-seek/201203/self-deception-i-rationalization

People always have and always will displace blame from themselves as a coping mechanism for their own short-comings, "society" is the most agreeable culprit.

A complaint needn't merely describe the initial objection. If you want to try pedantry try to get it right.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/complaint

Everything but the legal and medical definition of complaint is simply raising a stink about something that causes negative emotions, it is not a problem-solving or logical argument.

Oh this absurd 'maybe'. No I'm not going to just go with maybe and anyone not trying to weasel around things wouldn't either. If it's the case make an argument for it. The one displayed failed and that's why it's rejected.

If you want the say it's the case prove it. I'm not going to be fooled by worthless maybes.

As I said, this "maybe" is merely a complaint. Value would be found in linking any number of articles or studies that show negative trends in perception of male sexuality leading to males pursuing women as platonic friends firstly, though it is a relatively new phenomenon (with no proof pointing one way or another that I've seen to date) and is just an observation on my part.

And?

Just saying that if someone starts a support foundation for Nice Guys you won't see me advocating for it any more than any other lousy social cause.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

No that's not how it actually plays out. (Yes when people make claims and don't back them sometimes my response is just to say 'No')

Basic Psychology of Human Rationalization.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hide-and-seek/201203/self-deception-i-rationalization

People always have and always will displace blame from themselves as a coping mechanism for their own short-comings, "society" is the most agreeable culprit.

That something can happen does not mean it's the case for a particular occurance. That's beyond basic.

A complaint needn't merely describe the initial objection. If you want to try pedantry try to get it right.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/complaint

Everything but the legal and medical definition of complaint is simply raising a stink about something that causes negative emotions, it is not a problem-solving or logical argument.

I'm waiting to see the bit where it is limited only 'raising a stink'. Any grievance, regardless of logic, can be called a complaint.

Also it's funny to see you say logic when you're using the faulty logic that because something is not defined as X it cannot also include X in some occasions. It never says that a complaint is mutually exclusive to all else.

Oh this absurd 'maybe'. No I'm not going to just go with maybe and anyone not trying to weasel around things wouldn't either. If it's the case make an argument for it. The one displayed failed and that's why it's rejected.

If you want the say it's the case prove it. I'm not going to be fooled by worthless maybes.

As I said, this "maybe" is merely a complaint. Value would be found in linking any number of articles or studies that show negative trends in perception of male sexuality leading to males pursuing women as platonic friends firstly, though it is a relatively new phenomenon (with no proof pointing one way or another that I've seen to date) and is just an observation on my part.

An 'observation' with no value.

And?

Just saying that if someone starts a support foundation for Nice Guys you won't see me advocating for it any more than any other lousy social cause.

Lovely. Now if that had any bearing on whether on the other causes it might actually mean something.

 

[Callate]

Hey, cheers on this post! You've articulated a lot of what I often run into as a person and as an activist for the MRM and as someone who supports feminism in word and deed. I greatly appreciate what you write here.

Thanks. I don't generally consider myself part of the MRM per se, but it sounds as though we arrive from fairly similar places.

 

[AgedGrunt]

So why the Hell is all of this only ever brought up to shut up someone else up? Seriously, I rarely see anyone saying ANYTHING about this stuff is when someone else is trying to talk about their problems (Yes I'm talking about feminism here, but I'm trying to avoid it talking about it because mentioning it always causes the argument to be derailed). And that drives me insane. Logically I thought that the people who bring them up as counter-arguments would really be invested in male problems, but when there isn't a discussion about feminism going on, they never really get brought up.

There are a lot of men's groups and discussion but generally, as a man, you should understand two things:

1) Men are not known for discussing their problems, releasing healthy emotions and relying on others for emotional support in their problems. Women can and do engage in this, and society embraces them.

2) Western society not only embraces women and women's issues, it invests a staggering amount of attention and support to them while neglecting men.

One of the biggest problems you should realize, as a man, is how we're conditioned, through a variety of factors and influences (none of which are "toxic") to not seek help and that society (which is not entirely run by men) has constructed itself almost exclusively to provide that to the sex that demonstrably depends upon it in order to thrive.

There are many reasons we could get into, but the bottom line is that you're not helping by arguing that men are lazy and apathetic until feminists come along and get themselves a piece of activism, and only then do we want to get involved...to displace them in the discussion. This is more like a cry for help, and it really sucks how people can't see this.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I have to say, I've never heard of "Virgin Shaming" before this either. It sounds like bullshit too, because in my experience the only people who care about and talk about virgins and virginity, are virgins.

I'd disagree there, there's a certain stigma to being a male virgin. Now, how big it is, OTOH, I can't really say.

Or, they could focus on issues women in the Third World have to deal with. Y'know, where things like genital mutilation, forced marriage to your rapist, and child brides are all things that are happening.

Most people in the First world have very limited influence beyond the borders of their own nation. There's also serious problems with trying to improve other nations and cultures Westerners often don't fully understand, all sorts of problems are caused. That's not to say feminists aren't trying, however.

 

[Eclipse Dragon]

https://feminainvicta.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/500x_pdd-nice-guy.jpg

They never had a good answer for that. xD

Translation: Nice guy with "edge" and by edge, I don't mean borderline abusive, I mean confidence.

(Not saying you weren't confident in high school, I couldn't say for sure why they didn't want to date you specifically but maybe they didn't know what they wanted either)

 

[Thaluikhain]

I have to say, I've never heard of "Virgin Shaming" before this either. It sounds like bullshit too, because in my experience the only people who care about and talk about virgins and virginity, are virgins.

I'd disagree there, there's a certain stigma to being a male virgin. Now, how big it is, OTOH, I can't really say.

A 40 year old virgin maybe, but then how would anyone know unless we're told? It all comes back to someone advertising their sexual history and then complaining about the reception it gets.

Er...by that logic, if nobody knows someone is gay, can they suffer from homophobia?

 

[Dazzle Novak]

Snip

I beg your pardon? Virgin shamming? You're going to have to point out where I did that, especially considering that I'm a 22 year old virgin. I never said anything about sex, I thought we were talking about getting girlfriends and how some men act like they only loose out because they're "nice guys". I say why I find that to be bullshit and that these nice guys aren't as nice as they say they are, and all of a sudden I'm virgin shamming? Hey Inu-Kun! You know you can be in a relationship with someone and come out of it a virgin right!? Relationships =/= sex!

You're also replying to entire paragraphs worth of arguments with what can be boiled down to "You did this one thing, therefore you're wrong about everything." Like I said last time, go back and respond to what I ACTUALLY said.

This is the second time you criticize me for an argument that I didn't actually make and you made up. And don't you DARE talk to me about shaming when you're the one that said, and I quote " women are attracted to strong, egoistical men who don't care a shit for them and enough con artists display that, it's pretty sickening the way women sanctify themselves as having "standards" mor than man."

Who's the one shamming here? Because it ain't fucking me!

Except you did, the huge ass "nice guy" you posted is the classic virgin shaming, you immediately jumped from my argument to implicating I'm a "nice guy" and that's why I think that women only love douchbags. And yeah, virgin shaming isn't impossible if you are a virgin. And why should I reply to your entire spiel when the most noticable thing about it is an insult?

And yeah, that's the hard truth, there's nothing here about shaming, feminists talk about equality but try to put themselves in a higher moral position over men, I'll proudly say the other side, most men are attracted to female who are beautiful and have large breasts, there's nothing shameful here but remnants of the early days of humanity. Don't try to say it's "shaming" just because it's not very nice thing to say.

captcha: "love is automatic". Appropiate

"Attracted to" and "have an exclusive preference for" are not the same thing. I prefer filet mignon. I eat at Arby's a lot more than at 5 star steakhouses. I love BMWs, but spend most of my time in Toyotas.

According to your generalization, men don't get rewarded for various other traits like facial attractiveness, personality, or common interest. Nope. Women only go for rugged Ron Swanson types just like men only date girls with DD tits.

And how much of this attraction to hot abs is correlated to being attractive overall? Paul Giamatti with Chris Hemsworth's bod would still be less "hot" than the reverse. Hell, the dude who plays Loki has a rabid female fanbase despite not being overtly ripped and looking like a shaved owl (dat British accent)...

 

[Jimboa30]

Men don't talk about their problems because it's socially unacceptable to do so. So men's problems are only brought up as a counter-argument because that's the only time it's acceptable to do so - to show that we too have problems, but choose not to talk about them but rather deal with them in silence, the unspoken subtext being that women should do the same. Right or wrong, that's very debatable, but the point is, men do have problems but for the most part, we don't talk about them because what the hell does whining and complaining accomplish? We want solutions, not hand-wringing.