Marijuana: The Great Taboo Topic

[ShotgunShaman]

All you're saying is...
"God works in mysterious ways."
"Cuse I said so."
"I'm a sheeple."
"Baa Baa"

He didn't say anything remotely like any of these...

 

[Klepa]

Well... Portugal. I understand your fear, but it hasn't played out that way in Portugal.

Now they have a different way of life to us, so WE may not be as prepared as they. Would you argue, then, that starting on the road to legalisation is the way to go?

Here's a picture of Finland when the prohibition ended.

Spoiler

Of course times were different, and Finns had been drinking more booze during the prohibition than before it.
But I can see that happening again, if only in a smaller scale. Atleast one of the first things in legalization would be to really educate the masses on the substance.
Maybe have like a year full of educational material on TV/papers/whatever, before actually starting the sales.
"If you just had two joints, don't take the stairs!"

 

[Lovelocke]

For your consideration...

-Background Information on Me-
My name is Adrian Santiago, filmmaker/geek. Background on me: First girlfriend at age 16, lost virginity at 18 (with some random after I lost my first girlfriend), got into pro wrestling and did some damage to my left knee, broke my right foot - retired about 4 years after that. Went to school, got my degree in Radio and Television Broadcasting. Started making movies, three years after that I put it all on the line and made a feature-length film (which was just shown last week in Dallas). I am also a non-drinker, non-smoker, and up until recently, drug free... heh.

-First time experimenting with pot-
It happened the week after principal photography ended on my movie (less than a month ago). A friend of mine had "always done it", and had suggested I take a hit. I was worried about finances after the movie and had recently broke up with my girlfriend of 2 years and had no chance to "deal with it"... so it was one of those "Can't get any worse" moments. Took a hit, held it in, felt a light tingling in my cheeks/nose but otherwise didn't "get" the point of it.

I also discovered I hated *smoking* (first time I've done that too). Bad taste, just not a fan.

Concerned I hadn't actually given it a good chance, I investigated other methods of "taking it": Settled on brownies. Upside - No smoking, Downside - Expensive (Cost about $60 for one tray of brownies).

Ate one, felt "calm". Very subtle feeling, but for instance, it made a movie I hated watching very tolerable. I ate a second one, face started feeling a little numb... running my finger down my face, I couldn't really feel it. Attempting to push it further, I ate a third one: That's when things got funky.

Imagine shampoo inside of a glass bowl: If you turn the bowl one way, the shampoo slowly "slides" down to the new "bottom" of the bowl. Turn it the other way? The shampoo slides that way too.

THIS WAS HAPPENING TO MY HEAD! I would tilt it side to side and feel "blood" in my head trickle to the "bottom".

Through it all, my knee didn't hurt... I had the courage to stand up in front of a large crowd (at the movie premiere) and crack jokes, be charming and all that and even drive myself to a fast food place for a late dinner and then straight home incident-free.

Is the potential there for someone to get stupid with it? Sure there is... immaturity's a *****: It makes kids without a drop of alcohol in them jump off of their friends houses on a dare, but by and large? I imagine anyone with any modicum of self-control can use the stuff responsibly, and there's also several methods of ingestion for those who aren't a fan of smoking and so on. I believe you can even get the stuff in pill form these days.

And if you're lucky enough to be in a state that already has it legalized, then y'know... tell me where to paypal so I can get some off you

 

[lizards]

Incorrect. It's EQUALLY harmful/dangerous as alcohol or ciggies. It's definitely not LESS dangerous than them, at least.

Haa ha hah ha!
You can't be serious!

Alcohol rots your liver, and cigarettes your lungs. Weed doesn't affect the liver, and can actually help fight lung cancer! There's no way they're equally harmful.

it is interesting to me you are on the edge of your seat to scream that it isnt as bad but not mentioning the other effects: like the fact that it is not confirmed as to what cancer has to do with it by the fact that some studies find that it increases cancer, some find it decreases cancer, and some find that it has no effect at all on cancer, it has been found to increase stroke and that is not confirmed either but what is confirmed is the negative mental effects from its use like depression or other things, also by the fact it is a gateway drug even though by those studies alchol and tobacco can be considered gateway drugs, and also seems to further complicate existing heart problems, also it is shown to decrease productivity

in short there is more evidence on the side of illegalization than on legalization and i invite you to try and back up yourside

 

[Samurai Goomba]

Marijuana certainly is not a taboo topic around here.

Don't I wish.

 

[scotth266]

Marijuana certainly is not a taboo topic around here.

Don't I wish.

Hey: it ain't a political or religion thread. You take what you can get these days.

Besides, I've had interesting discussions emerge from drug threads. Amnestic and I once had a little back-and-forth conversation about legalization that was pretty neat.

 

[Boxpopper]

I think that the laws are
A. Not based on actual medical facts
B. Pointless considering how many people use it
C. Bad because some cops can abuse the law to confiscate legal medical from people

I don't personally do it but I know that it isn't really bad for you. I know that you can't get addicted to it, and that the worst thing it can do to you is make you really lazy. I know plenty of people who used to do it and quit and are fine. I think that we should legalize it, and even if we can't stop some dude from growing it in his backyard (which could actually still be illegal for tax reasons... but just as illegal as it is to have more than one yard sale per week) a weed corporation will probably spring up and it would become a regular part of society.

Hey maybe commercially sold weed cigs could dominate american culture and no one would be addicted to tobacco anymore? That would definately be a change for the better.

 

[feather240]

All you're saying is...
"God works in mysterious ways."
"Cuse I said so."
"I'm a sheeple."
"Baa Baa"

He didn't say anything remotely like any of these...

What I mean is I assume he assumes because so many governments do it has to be right. What I'm saying is that no matter how many people do something it doesn't make it right. I want a reason from him that doesn't rely completely on another opinion he doesn't even know.

 

[Raven's Nest]

You said it yourself... The weed that exists today is all too often contaminated with what you have mentioned (although, uh, that's dependent on your source). People will smoke it no matter what the law says - we've seen in countries like Portugal and Holland that where the legal risk for smoking it is removed, usage doesn't increase - it actually falls. So, considering that, what's the harm in opening the weed up to proper quality control to stop the foul contaminants from spoiling the weed?

Like I said, I don't doubt the quality would improve and the risk would be reduced somewhat. But governmental sanction doesn't exactly mean they are going to start running their own farms does it? They will still allow existing dealers to peddle drugs like they used to, maybe a few spot checks here and there and an ever watchful eye on their accoun books but that's it. Remember when the Stones played Woodstock and they hired the Hells Angels to do security?... Yeah, I maybe quite pessamistic but that scene about sums up my gut feeling about the actual handling of a legalised marijuana trade...

Still, that's my gut feeling, I'm in the UK so things maybe a bit different where you live but weed is generally rough around here as any UK toker might agree? I don't know how it is handled in Holland some actual intel would be appreciated.

I believe there has been no evidence that marijuana inherantly causes psychosis. They've proven that it can exasperate schizophrenia and its ilk, but only when the person is already at risk of developing it. I can't say whether that's true for the weed available nowadays, but how many people would choose to get this tainted weed if pure weed's available? I certainly would choose the clean weed.

I believe there is plenty of research avaliable but I don't have access to it. However, I have seen, spoken to, been punched by and had to be part of a four person to restrain an individual who suffered with psychosis induced from taking stupid amounts of green... Now I have no idea if I'm susceptible to psychosis or split-personlaity syndrome or the chicken pox that may be set off by smoking a spliff. Do you? There is no way to tell and some symptoms may not become apparent for a long time after you even quit. But then this is a minority of people but I think if there is proven evidence that smoking marijuana could cause these conditions then it should remain illegal. At least that way there is only yourself to blame if you still choose to ignore a law set for this reason. Don't forget, there is no garuntee of getting clean weed either... And I'm going to go on a limb and say most stereotypical pot smokers may not be so willing to shell out for more expensive weed.

If it was really a question of liberties then I would argue that any one who wishes to take drugs will continue to do so regardless of whether or not it is legal. So the point about it not being fair that you can't smoke drugs is kind of moot when nothing is stopping you from doing it. You'll just be punished if caught.

Now the punishments of smoking weed by law are valid points. It isn't one I wish to discuss as it's not the purpose of this debate.

 

[Samurai Goomba]

Marijuana certainly is not a taboo topic around here.

Don't I wish.

Hey: it ain't a political or religion thread. You take what you can get these days.

Besides, I've had interesting discussions emerge from drug threads. Amnestic and I once had a little back-and-forth conversation about legalization that was pretty neat.

Eh, but the Marijuana issue usually comes down to politics. Politically conservative fellows tend to oppose the legalization, while those who lean more towards liberal ideals tend to support it.

If it were up to me, I'd make alcohol, tobacco and drugs illegal, along with anything else that brings people happiness.

 

[Raven's Nest]

You are again using the "it's illegal, it must be bad!" logic. Homosexuality is illegal in a lot of places too. Hell, it's even punishable by death in several countries! These queers must be terrible folk, eh?

Sorry, it appears I'm still being somewhat unclear in my intentions. What I meant to get across is that Average Joe will look at a law restricting the use of marijuana and assume it must mean marijuana is bad. And if average joe see's many countries all declaring the same law, then that will further bolster his opinion...

I question the law like there is no tommorrow. Average Joe who probably doesn't smoke weed, will probably not question it. I may be wrong in my assumptions but then I'm not going to get an unbiased opinion of it in this thread...

I don't judge why people smoke it no matter how pathetic their reasons maybe.

It, uh...kinda looks like you do.

I don't judge people, I judge their motives and actions. If you smoked weed because you like it I would not think less of you. If you said I need to smoke weed because it's the only thing that makes me happy, then you'll get the judgement. The difference is subtle, I'm hoping you'll get it tho.

But I am of the opinion it should remain illegal. Simply because I cannot think of a single reason anyone would need to use it

The numerous medical reasons? Just for shits and giggles? I can't imagine why anyone would want to smoke or drink either, but those are legal for some crazy reason.[/quote] I did infact state except in the case of extreme medical conditions. And let's face it, it must be extreme if only weed can help...

when it has been scientifically proven to cause problems in later life such as psychosis, flashbacks, and other mental problems. Save for extreme medical reasons.

...though is still significantly less harmful than alcohol, tobacco, etc. Do you want those illegal as well?[/quote] No it is not significantly less harmful. Where as tobacco can kill through passive smoking, it won't alter your mind and affect your judgement. Drugs and alcohol will impair your ability to think properly, drive vehicles safely etc. Yes most weed smokers do not get violent like alcoholics but the cost of addiction can destroy families just the same... I've seen it happen to several families. It is not pleasant or trivial I can assure you.. There is no way around that. In a perfect world I'd ban them all but this isn't my perfect world. So like anyone in a civillized society I'll leave judgement in the hands of more informed people. I will have my opinions afterwards naturally.

 

[BringBackBuck]

A little something on the harmful effects of marijuana:

Some cognitive deficits appear detectable at least 7 days after heavy cannabis use but appear reversible and related to recent cannabis exposure rather than irreversible and related to cumulative lifetime use*

Also there is a strong correlation between instances of schizophrenia and use of marijuana. Most of the stuff I have read suggests that pot doesn't cause schizophrenia but rather exacerbates it in people who are predisposed to it. http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevention/streetdrugs.html

*Pope HG, Gruber AJ, Hudson JI, Huestis MA, Yurgelun-Todd D. Neuropsychological performance in long-term cannabis users. Arch Gen Psychiatry 58(10):909?915, 2001.

 

[Raven's Nest]

[

It's more like a reduction of our rights than anything. The drug hurts the users if anyone, not the people around them. Not any more than alcohol at least. The government is not right, we are not free people, consensus between a billion people, even several billion people does not make something "right" there is no "should" be illegal. It is and that's a fact, but it's depriving citizens of their free will.

Again I'll quickly stat that I have seen the effect a person addicted to weed, to anything, can have on a family. Less likely to beat them yes, but more likely to be avoident, run up debts and act differently around his children. In short I don't think there's an arguement that weed doesn't affect other people. I've had to work with habitual stoners, they are fucking useless as someone else has already stated. That's not just kids either, I've had 50 year olds under my command who smoked whilst working and they were useless too.

Smoking weed has never been a right... Nobody has got a right to anything that we as a civilization haven't given ourselves. Besides an invisible forcefield won't stop you lighting a spliff just don't be suprised if you get nicked for doing it. After all apparently we all signed up to these set of laws that govern how we live our lives... Yes... Apparently... Arbitrated by the impartial yet primitive system of where we were born, which determines how we live our lives and which rights are then given to us.

You can tell I have no love for the notion of being controlled, but I can accept some decisions which are made for the benefit of people. The greater good, as it were...

 

[Raven's Nest]

Like i said before, I have a friend who is 60 years old, and every breed of weed he has tried has gotten him the same results, and he knows that moderation is the key, and it has never failed him.

also, some of my friends know that many weed dealers jack up the price if they are the only guys selling, so if it became legal, the price would drive down due to a little thing we call Capitalism, and a small fee won't change the fact because everything has a tax on it.

(for some reason the thing wasn't quoted, sorry ravens_nest)

I'm with you on the moderation part as the same is true of alcohol, sex, TV, chocolates, forum boards... Okay maybe not sex but anyway, there will always be some people who will be fine with smoking weed and not develop any real problems save smelling and being lazy and consuming copious amounts of food. Yes the conversation can be funny and it chills people out far more to my tastes than alcohol does but this isn't the issue I'm talking about.

There are also a great deal of people who suffer mental conditions later on in life or in some rare cases instantly. My arguement for banning them is that because of these unknown risks, well known risks but due to inability to quanitfy them they are uncertain risks people should not risk themselves. I'm not trying to spoil your fun or anything, but what does it actually take to convince people of anything these days. Tanning salons are nothing but bad for you but people use them. Absolutely nothing good comes from smoking but people still do. I quit 10 months ago... Drink turns sometimes decent people into animals... Now there is evidence that weed may fuck with your head permanently but we as a society are just gonna say do it anyway coz getting high is fun!

If you ask me, some people just don't know what's bad for em and I'd like to see that damage limited. Telling kids drugs are good by legalising them just sends out the wrong message. As they'll only want to experiment with cocaine next...

Believe me, drugs would not be cheaper if legalised... I explained more thoroughly on this in previous posts...

 

[Raven's Nest]

I'm against the smoking of weed and I think your friend's parents have acted in an entirely non-ignorant manner. Weed is illegal in most countries, what does that tell you?

That the governments of those countries are stupid?

I've never done weed, I would try it most likely, but still. Weed is safe, relaxes you. How is weed so bad? Alcohol is worse. MUCH WORSE. Weed has medical purposes, obviously recreation, and many other pros. The pros outweigh the cons, and I can't even think of any cons. Maybe I'm stupid, I don't know, but I think it should be legalized.

Umm I don't want to seem impolite but I think your stupid. And I would implore you to go and find out the risks of taking marijuana like now... A cop should be able to help you out, or school nurse. How old are you? Because I can't believe you would actually come to the conclusion that weed is safe by yourself. That would imply you aren't even aware of the dangers of harder drugs too. Now that is concerning.

 

[Raven's Nest]

3. It's the most annual grossing cash crop in America.

U, Tabbacco?

And to answer your question, I say no. Everyone I know who smokes on a regular basis is a douche, especially when they arn't high. So maybe my opion is biased, but I'm sticking to it.

Also, It smells like shit.

I disagree with the notion that I am a douche. I believe that it may be more of a problem of the people you know than of pot in of itself

I have to say I agree with the notions that the majority of stoners are douchebags. There are exceptions obviously but I tend to find these peoples lives revolve around weed. It has always strikes me as sad when that is all they are concerned with but alas that's the reason I choose not to hang with them. Each to his own I guess. But so far as it has proved in my experience weed has never been a good or particularly usefull thing.

Films and TV have glamourised the stoner lifestyle somewhat but there are justified reasons they looked down upon...

I am sorry, it is you who has misinterpreted. I was covering my OWN arse for something which seemed ad hominim while I was typing it to YOU. I was actually apologising for what I was about to type. It was just that I felt the need to question your own motives, but didn't want it to be part of the legitimate debate because it was arguing on a point not directly related to the discussion.

In short, I was not claiming you were ad hominim, but I WAS atrociously unclear as to how I said that. Apologies.

Ah communication breakdown is a terrible thing.. (always think of Zeppelin when I say that)

No harm done I hope.

 

[TailsRodrigez]

Like i said before, I have a friend who is 60 years old, and every breed of weed he has tried has gotten him the same results, and he knows that moderation is the key, and it has never failed him.

also, some of my friends know that many weed dealers jack up the price if they are the only guys selling, so if it became legal, the price would drive down due to a little thing we call Capitalism, and a small fee won't change the fact because everything has a tax on it.

(for some reason the thing wasn't quoted, sorry ravens_nest)

I'm with you on the moderation part as the same is true of alcohol, sex, TV, chocolates, forum boards... Okay maybe not sex but anyway, there will always be some people who will be fine with smoking weed and not develop any real problems save smelling and being lazy and consuming copious amounts of food. Yes the conversation can be funny and it chills people out far more to my tastes than alcohol does but this isn't the issue I'm talking about.

There are also a great deal of people who suffer mental conditions later on in life or in some rare cases instantly. My arguement for banning them is that because of these unknown risks, well known risks but due to inability to quanitfy them they are uncertain risks people should not risk themselves. I'm not trying to spoil your fun or anything, but what does it actually take to convince people of anything these days. Tanning salons are nothing but bad for you but people use them. Absolutely nothing good comes from smoking but people still do. I quit 10 months ago... Drink turns sometimes decent people into animals... Now there is evidence that weed may fuck with your head permanently but we as a society are just gonna say do it anyway coz getting high is fun!

If you ask me, some people just don't know what's bad for em and I'd like to see that damage limited. Telling kids drugs are good by legalising them just sends out the wrong message. As they'll only want to experiment with cocaine next...

Believe me, drugs would not be cheaper if legalised... I explained more thoroughly on this in previous posts...

i am not saying to allow kids to get the message that all drugs are okay, but anything you do, or almost everything you do in life has a small risk, like obesity or a damaged liver , etc
but fast food, booze, and hell, even skateboarding is fine, and all of these things have risks, hell, my Aunt is a doctor, and she actually gave me a book on what has risks, and even sex was in the book, something that nearly all humans do multiple times in life, and would rather be tortured than give it up.

plus, i don't really smoke weed, especially during the school year, because i have homework, priorities, and work, once that is done, and if i really want to, and most of the time i don't, i'll smoke, but only if i have nothing to do, which is rare...

 

[Raven's Nest]

I'm against the smoking of weed and I think your friend's parents have acted in an entirely non-ignorant manner. Weed is illegal in most countries, what does that tell you?

Other things that are illegal:

Plowing a field with an elephant
Putting a moose or camel in a bathtub
Tying a giraffe to a lamppost
Children buying lollipops (Spokane)
Cutting your hair in many Arabic countries (oh, and hows about 'going outside without being completely covered head-to-foot if you're a woman'?)

and tons of other shit.

Okay I did actually explain the above statement and even predicted this kind of response although partially in jest as i'm taking it. Please have a look through my previous posts in this thread and ask me if you have any further questions.

Also, what is keeping it illegal going to do? Even if you don't smoke it, it's going to be a great tax revenue for the government, it will take business away from drug cartels, and only pure, harmless stuff will be sold by the legal traders, and it will clear the jails of harmless potheads, free up a massive amount of police time and money which can be used to fight actual crime, keeping it illegal won't reduce usage, many more dangerous things are still legal (try alcohol and cigarettes and driving, for some), nobody has ever died from smoking weed, it's wicked inspiration for music, an excellent painkiller and relaxant, a brilliant resource (hemp and cannabis could potentially wipe out deforestation, be made into clothes, fuels, foods, cosmetics, paints, cleaners, building materials, rope and other useful things), and only illegal in the first case because of a smear campaign by the paper and timber industry.

Where as you've managed to get this point across better and more balanced than some ITT, I still feel it is an extremely optimistic and idealistic view of what would happen. I think the reality of the situation would be much much worse/less clear cut than that. What many fail to take into account is the actual effect on society such a move would have. Stoners aren't popular people, nor do they have the love of the population of non-tokers. You'd think it'll turn into a little utopia but for those of us that don't think the world of pot, we are mostly in agreeance that it would be a bad thing for a country as a whole. This is why these decisions are made by a countries government, not gaming fans on a forum. I won't pretend to have any more insight on the matter than you have so it may be a case of agree to disagree here.

However the use of hemp is legal in the UK at least. From my understanding this is because it is derived from the male cannabis plant which does not contain the THC, which makes the female part illegal. If that isn't the case in your country then it should be. But that's not on trial here.

 

[Raven's Nest]

All you're saying is...
"God works in mysterious ways."
"Cuse I said so."
"I'm a sheeple."
"Baa Baa"

If the majority of countries upheld jumping of a bridge would you do it? You can think what you want, but either keep it your self or create a real reason. You're too smart for this.

If you want me to dignify this with a response, I would ask that you go through all my posts and come back to me if you have further questions. Otherwise piss off.

Sorry to trim such an epic post...

I agree with you, every word...

I've noticed during the course of this thread which is the first of it's kind that I have participated in, that the reasons to legalize cannabis are largely due to selfish interests. Those same people often aren't willing to get up and do what it takes to get shit done. Besides even if they got that far they still completely ignore the fact that the vast majority of people in a society will not want it legalized for perfectly valid reasons. Where there are drugs, there is crime... That and most stoners do little but work minimum wage jobs or claim benefits and never attempt to progress in life. Save the odd exceptions of course. In fact if that statement has pissed anyone off then good, it shows that you do care about your lives and how you are portrayed. Perhaps there is hope after all...

 

[Raven's Nest]

i am not saying to allow kids to get the message that all drugs are okay, but anything you do, or almost everything you do in life has a small risk, like obesity or a damaged liver , etc
but fast food, booze, and hell, even skateboarding is fine, and all of these things have risks, hell, my Aunt is a doctor, and she actually gave me a book on what has risks, and even sex was in the book, something that nearly all humans do multiple times in life, and would rather be tortured than give it up.

plus, i don't really smoke weed, especially during the school year, because i have homework, priorities, and work, once that is done, and if i really want to, and most of the time i don't, i'll smoke, but only if i have nothing to do, which is rare...

I do understand your views on this, believe me, and it think I understand just what you are missing...

Yes, life is risky and we should take risks because they are fun and interesting or whatnot, but what you need to try and understand is when something like this is legalised, society as a whole takes a risk, not just the individual. Everyone has to try and make peace with the idea that a potentially dangerous and clearly mind altering drug is going to be on their doorsteps, in their newsagents, in their coffee shops. And the vast majority of people do not want this to happen, myself included.

Yes alcohol is just as dangerous if not more apparent, but we as a society have had many thousands of years to adjust to it. The habitual smoking of weed in most countries has not been around any where near as long on the scale that it is used now.

Society isn't ready for that. We have enough problems with alcohol abusers and drink drivers etc, we all should know drinking to excess is bad for us but it is still a major one. With uncertain research going on about the very real potential dangers of smoking cannabis it is the youngsters like yourself that I fear for. Stoners aren't cool, and most don't do anything valuable with their lives, at least not to society. This brings me straight back to the point. Society doesn't need a fresh generations of stoners, it should be working to avoid letting people slip into the habit of smoking marijuana and becoming the stereotypical stoner. Legitimizing it for whatever reason is a huge step in the wrong direction I think.