Marine Mike Presents Games and Ammo: M4 Carbine

[Marine Mike]

As an aside to this topic. I don't think I saw training listed in regards to a weapons accuracy. This, probably more than any other factor,can and will decide a paticular weapons accuracy.

For instructional purposes only, let's assume that two people are both firing the M16A2. Both are firing exactly the same make of ammunition. Both firing from the same position and distance, let's say prone at 200 yards. Both weapons have been BZO'ed at 200 yards. If both shooters have the same training, then they both should be equally accurate. However, if that is not the case whomever has more training will be accurate.

Further, training allows one to know when to switch between firing modes of the weapon. As an example there are specific times that burst fire is superior to semi-automatic well aimed shots and vice versa. The same applies to knowing when a paticular weapon fits the bill.
Or, which type of ammo is needed to get the job done. Training is the key to all of that.

It never fails to amaze me that people will choose SMG's in FPS and then use them as precision weapons. Or that game designers allow things of that nature to occur.

By the by, Happy 235th Birthday to the U.S. Marine Corps, Semper Fi!

You are absolutely correct, and had this article been focused more toward accuracy in general I would have certainly brought up that point. The most lethal part of any warfighter's arsenal is knowledge and proper training.

Keep up the good work.

However, I think your missing one detail when it comes to this review: Reliability.
You talked about size, caliber and the M4 ability to fill different rolles. But is the M4 a weapon that is prone to jaming? Is it a good design or does it have any design flaws? Does it work well in different climates? Like sand, water and such.

Oh yeah, and this:

Yes, yes... the HK416. Its a lovely weapon, a variant of the M4 using a different gas system. However, its still not quite in a position to replace the M4 in the US military. Properly maintained, the M4 will function flawlessly. There have been widespread complaints about the reliability of the weapon system, an improperly maintained weapon is bound to malfunction at some point. The biggest reliability problem I ever encountered was in the poorly maintained magazines I was issued for my M4/M16 (I've been issued both during my service, and used the same magazines). This was easily solved by buying some cheap auto-leveling and self-lubricating followers that ensures that rounds feed properly from the magazine. Once I did that, I had zero issues.

 

[Divine Miss Bee]

So if you could give it a number on the Reese's/Spork scale, where would you put it?

the reese's/spork scale is entirely inefficient in this case. i prefer to use the souplex/awesome scale.

 

[Baneat]

Oh. And it's magazine by the way. Guns that are clip fed are actually fairly unusual, and they're almost always rifles, not pistols.

This is one of my pet peeves. I was watching the second episode of The Walking Dead, the main character who is a sheriff, says he's "got a beretta with 15 in the clip". I groaned, it would have been acceptable for any other character, but as a cop he should have known better.

To top it all off, even Black ops gets this wrong.

Something like "Most guns can have their clips increased through the Extended Mags attachment"

The two guns that work via clip, the revolver and the M14, obviously do not have these options available to them.

 

[electric method]

During my time in the Corps, magazines were always an issue. It usually revolved around bent or damaged mags, springs being weak or damaged. It was actually bad enough that we were trained to only load 29 rounds instead of 30 due to the fact that the magazine springs could not handle the max ammo capacity. While annoying, I eventually just got used to it.

 

[Marine Mike]

During my time in the Corps, magazines were always an issue. It usually revolved around bent or damaged mags, springs being weak or damaged. It was actually bad enough that we were trained to only load 29 rounds instead of 30 due to the fact that the magazine springs could not handle the max ammo capacity. While annoying, I eventually just got used to it.

Thats exactly the thing I was mentioning. Magazines were the root of all of my problems when it came to the M16/M4. In the Corps us grunts usually had to dip into our own money to fix these sort of "small" issues that in reality are potentially life-saving. Easy fix is the self-leveling follower, or if you want to go all out you can just buy your own personal magazines. Magpul makes some amazing magazines, if you don't mind spending almost $20 each.

 

[Anarchemitis]

The most lethal part of any warfighter's arsenal is knowledge and proper training.

Are you going to do A Marine Mike Presents on the subject of the usage of vehicles, or would that be too absurd?

 

[electric method]

During my time in the Corps, magazines were always an issue. It usually revolved around bent or damaged mags, springs being weak or damaged. It was actually bad enough that we were trained to only load 29 rounds instead of 30 due to the fact that the magazine springs could not handle the max ammo capacity. While annoying, I eventually just got used to it.

Thats exactly the thing I was mentioning. Magazines were the root of all of my problems when it came to the M16/M4. In the Corps us grunts usually had to dip into our own money to fix these sort of "small" issues that in reality are potentially life-saving. Easy fix is the self-leveling follower, or if you want to go all out you can just buy your own personal magazines. Magpul makes some amazing magazines, if you don't mind spending almost $20 each.

I agree on the "small" issues statement. We had a long running joke that the Corps was the dumping ground for all the Army's used and unwanted trash. Of my initial magazine issue 5 of them were broken in some way. I ended up having to make a lengthy visit to supply to get it sorted out. Fortunately for me, as a heavy machine gunner, my primary weapon was not the M16. However, M60's, Mk-19's and M2 come with their own problems. I actually trained on a .50 cal that was so old I would have sworn it saw service in WWII.

 

[Marine Mike]

During my time in the Corps, magazines were always an issue. It usually revolved around bent or damaged mags, springs being weak or damaged. It was actually bad enough that we were trained to only load 29 rounds instead of 30 due to the fact that the magazine springs could not handle the max ammo capacity. While annoying, I eventually just got used to it.

Thats exactly the thing I was mentioning. Magazines were the root of all of my problems when it came to the M16/M4. In the Corps us grunts usually had to dip into our own money to fix these sort of "small" issues that in reality are potentially life-saving. Easy fix is the self-leveling follower, or if you want to go all out you can just buy your own personal magazines. Magpul makes some amazing magazines, if you don't mind spending almost $20 each.

I agree on the "small" issues statement. We had a long running joke that the Corps was the dumping ground for all the Army's used and unwanted trash. Of my initial magazine issue 5 of them were broken in some way. I ended up having to make a lengthy visit to supply to get it sorted out. Fortunately for me, as a heavy machine gunner, my primary weapon was not the M16. However, M60's, Mk-19's and M2 come with their own problems. I actually trained on a .50 cal that was so old I would have sworn it saw service in WWII.

That could be very possible, since the M2 has been produced since the 1920's.

 

[Programmed_For_Damage]

Marine Mike that is a fantastic review. Informative on many levels.

 

[szoasis]

More of a general all rounder.

For example, in MW 1+2 I always use the M4 all the time (up until the P90 is unlocked but that isn't important) because it is an all rounder.

 

[Rigs83]

The best rifle in the world means nothing if the marksman using it has no ability.

Personally I prefer running away in terror than sitting down and fighting it out.

 

[Anarchemitis]

The real question is if it's good enough for Chesty Puller.
Or more pertinently, will I get rocksworded for asking that of a real marine? From what I hear, if you can't see them, they can see you, which would mean I could be only moments away from death.

 

[Jabberwock xeno]

Nice thread, do you have a list of the other topics?

And I have a question:

Why not redesign the M4 as a bullup weapon, keeping it's length but making it more accurate to due the "longer" barrel?

 

[Jabberwock xeno]

Why not redesign the M4 as a bullup weapon, keeping it's length but making it more accurate to due the "longer" barrel?

It would be remarkably inefficient. The Defense Department basically gives the contract to the lowest bidder -- whoever can build weapons the cheapest wins. To redesign the M4 into a bullpup weapon would cost a lot of money: and that would drive the price of that company's contract up.

Even if the M4A1 was redesigned as a bullpup weapon, it would take a lot of time and money to get the weapon deployed to troops... it would be far too expensive.

So they basically just take a bunch of guy's idea and whichever one has the highest mean of low cost, good preformence, etc is used?

Well, that would explain why the XM8 was thrown out; better suited to the conditions, but too expensive to produce and replace the current armants.

 

[Jabberwock xeno]

So they basically just take a bunch of guy's idea and whichever one has the highest mean of low cost, good preformence, etc is used?

Well, that would explain why the XM8 was thrown out; better suited to the conditions, but too expensive to produce and replace the current armants.

Basically, yes. As the saying goes, "Remember: your weapon was made by the lowest bidder!" (How's that for a boost of confidence and trust in your rifle before going into battle?)

The US Defense bill is astronomical as it is. Developing and deploying another weapon would add at least another few hundred million dollars to the national debt.

The XM8 would have been a pretty good alternative to the M4 (and it looked like a fish!), but it just wasn't cheap enough. Besides, a lot of the modular stuff with the XM8 (like "Look, I can make it a carbine, or a sniper rifle, or a light machine gun") can already be done with the M4, just less efficiently.

BTW, I heard that the XM8 project was picked up by some other country, do you know about that?

For some reason, i'm obsessed with that weapon.

 

[loc978]

Eh, the XM8 would've fit with the Army's new decor perfectly... works great, until it fails... but when it fails, it does so spectacularly.

-familiar with this dust test?
One thing most people don't mention about it: of the 127 stoppages the XM8 had... I believe it was... eight of them? ...were "major" stoppages, requiring field-stripping and complex repairs.
The rest of the rifles had no major stoppages.

...we should have picked up the SCAR...

 

[Jabberwock xeno]

Eh, the XM8 would've fit with the Army's new decor perfectly... works great, until it fails... but when it fails, it does so spectacularly.

-familiar with this dust test?
One thing most people don't mention about it: of the 127 stoppages the XM8 had... I believe it was... eight of them? ...were "major" stoppages, requiring field-stripping and complex repairs.
The rest of the rifles had no major stoppages.

...we should have picked up the SCAR...

... Except that a stoppage is a jam, so the current M4 had over 5 times more jams then the Xm8.


"Newer carbines outperform M4 in dust test" [http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/12/army_carbine_dusttest_071217/]

Here's the 1st paragarph:

"The M4 carbine, the weapon soldiers depend on in combat, finished last in a recent ?extreme dust test? to demonstrate the M4's reliability compared to three newer carbines.

Weapons officials at the Army Test and Evaluation Command at Aberdeen Proving Ground, Md., exposed Colt Defense LLC's M4, along with the Heckler & Koch XM8, FNH USA's Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle and the H&K 416 to sandstorm conditions from late September to late November, firing 6,000 rounds through each test weapon.

When the test was completed, ATEC officials found that the M4 performed "significantly worse" than the other three weapons, sources told Army Times.

Officials tested 10 each of the four carbine models, firing a total of 60,000 rounds per model. Here?s how they ranked, according to the total number of times each model stopped firing:

XM8: 127 stoppages.

MK16 SCAR Light: 226 stoppages.

416: 233 stoppages.

M4: 882 stoppages.

The results of the test were "a wake-up call," but Army officials continue to stand by the current carbine, said Brig. Gen. Mark Brown, commander of Program Executive Office Soldier, the command that is responsible for equipping soldiers."

 

[Canid117]

Finally. I love your reviews, but it takes too long to read them


Great review. It is nice to see the reality vs. the fiction.

Learn some patience.

Eh, the XM8 would've fit with the Army's new decor perfectly... works great, until it fails... but when it fails, it does so spectacularly.

-familiar with this dust test?
One thing most people don't mention about it: of the 127 stoppages the XM8 had... I believe it was... eight of them? ...were "major" stoppages, requiring field-stripping and complex repairs.
The rest of the rifles had no major stoppages.

...we should have picked up the SCAR...

... Except that a stoppage is a jam, so the current M4 had over 5 times more jams then the Xm8.


"Newer carbines outperform M4 in dust test" [http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/12/army_carbine_dusttest_071217/]

Here's the 1st paragarph:

"The M4 carbine, the weapon soldiers depend on in combat, finished last in a recent ?extreme dust test? to demonstrate the M4's reliability compared to three newer carbines.

Weapons officials at the Army Test and Evaluation Command at Aberdeen Proving Ground, Md., exposed Colt Defense LLC's M4, along with the Heckler & Koch XM8, FNH USA's Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle and the H&K 416 to sandstorm conditions from late September to late November, firing 6,000 rounds through each test weapon.

When the test was completed, ATEC officials found that the M4 performed "significantly worse" than the other three weapons, sources told Army Times.

Officials tested 10 each of the four carbine models, firing a total of 60,000 rounds per model. Here?s how they ranked, according to the total number of times each model stopped firing:

XM8: 127 stoppages.

MK16 SCAR Light: 226 stoppages.

416: 233 stoppages.

M4: 882 stoppages.

The results of the test were "a wake-up call," but Army officials continue to stand by the current carbine, said Brig. Gen. Mark Brown, commander of Program Executive Office Soldier, the command that is responsible for equipping soldiers."

However it takes only a few seconds to clear the stoppages from the M4 while the major jams that the XM8 suffers that were listed previously requires field stripping. A process which takes significantly longer than the process for clearing a malfunction on an M4. (I believe it is referred to as SPORTS by the Army and other services.)