Marines posed with Nazi SS symbol in Afghanistan

Lokithrsourcerer

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Xan Krieger said:
Lionsfan said:
Iwata said:
kasperbbs said:
Who cares, it's just a symbol, with a different meaning. Stupid nazis ruined so many good things, still that never stopped my english teacher from using hitlers moustache, that doesn't mean that hes a nazi.
He can always claim it's a Charlie Chaplin 'stache.

Besides, as I explained earlier, saying "it's just a symbol" is wrong for every possible reason. Try showing that flag to a jewish survivor, and then telling him "hey, it's just a symbol". I'd love to see that.
You're right, symbols do have meaning. Those stupid Americans, so ignorant and insensitive. I mean it's not like any European would be rude enough to dress in Nazi memorabilia, and then claim he didn't actually mean it, especially not a member of a political family or anything like that

Oh wait...
yeah but our royal family are largely in-bred retards.
 

Nexxis

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Symbol with meaning or not, one would think that, for a group in the PUBLIC eye, they would take extra precautions to make sure that their symbols may not offend anyone. I'm pretty sure this was just a mistake on their part.A mistake that could potentially offend many people.
 

Iwata

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Lionsfan said:
Iwata said:
Lionsfan said:
Iwata said:
Did you hear me saying anything about Americans? Idiots come in all shapes and sizes.
You didn't, but by arguing that they should be held responsible for using a symbol that they might not have known about it just adds to the general thought of this thread about stupid Marines and stupid Americans
I find it very, very, VERY hard to find that people in a military medium would not know what the symbol stands for. Americans or not, soldiers from an army that fought against the Nazis will know that symbol. Hell, you'd think ONE of them would know it and go "hey guys, that kinda looks familiar"...
That's possible, but one of the Scout Sniper logo's has been in use for quite a while now, and in said logo, there's a stylized SS on the logo,




So when one of them got a hold of the flag, they might not have seen it as the SS logo. That logo isn't really taught in a public education history class. It usually goes, rise of the Nazi's, start of the Blitzkrieg, go to the Holocaust, then back to the War for D-Day and the Atomic Bombings. The SS doesn't really get covered
I wasn't taught about the SS logo at school. I learned it through my own reading and overall general culture. Someone, at some stage, should have intervened and said that maybe that logo wasn't such a hot idea. As it is, that simplified version in the photo is even worse, since it removes ALL but the offending elements. You can see how that might be interpreted "wrong".

But to me, there's just no ambiguity. They knew the symbol, and they knew where it came from. We can sit here and dish out excuses for them all day long, but in the end, it comes down to them believing we're as stupid as they want us to think they are.
 

Mr.Squishy

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Soldiers dispatched to oppress people of a certain race by a country hell-bent on starting wars and using copious amounts of propaganda to make themselves look like the good guys posing with this flag is more appropriate than anyone might've thought. You know what parallells I'm drawing here.
 

Lionsfan

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Iwata said:
Lionsfan said:
Iwata said:
Lionsfan said:
Iwata said:
Did you hear me saying anything about Americans? Idiots come in all shapes and sizes.
You didn't, but by arguing that they should be held responsible for using a symbol that they might not have known about it just adds to the general thought of this thread about stupid Marines and stupid Americans
I find it very, very, VERY hard to find that people in a military medium would not know what the symbol stands for. Americans or not, soldiers from an army that fought against the Nazis will know that symbol. Hell, you'd think ONE of them would know it and go "hey guys, that kinda looks familiar"...
That's possible, but one of the Scout Sniper logo's has been in use for quite a while now, and in said logo, there's a stylized SS on the logo,



So when one of them got a hold of the flag, they might not have seen it as the SS logo. That logo isn't really taught in a public education history class. It usually goes, rise of the Nazi's, start of the Blitzkrieg, go to the Holocaust, then back to the War for D-Day and the Atomic Bombings. The SS doesn't really get covered
I wasn't taught about the SS logo at school. I learned it through my own reading and overall general culture. Someone, at some stage, should have intervened and said that maybe that logo wasn't such a hot idea. As it is, that simplified version in the photo is even worse, since it removes ALL but the offending elements. You can see how that might be interpreted "wrong".

But to me, there's just no ambiguity. They knew the symbol, and they knew where it came from. We can sit here and dish out excuses for them all day long, but in the end, it comes down to them believing we're as stupid as they want us to think they are.
I guess that's what it all boils down to. Whether or not you think it was on purpose or not. I guess it's just something we'll have to agree to disagree


Blablahb said:
Lionsfan said:
That's possible, but one of the Scout Sniper logo's has been in use for quite a while now, and in said logo, there's a stylized SS on the logo
Except the Waffen SS predates them by decades and decades, so that can never be an excuse.

More over, it means that the unit at some point in time conciously adopted the symbol of the Waffen SS for themselves.

I mean, if I get to make a regiment flag, and I use a guy wearing a white pointed hat with a burning cross in the background, wouldn't I at the very least run into someone pointing out what that meant at some point? Of course you would. Which means the scout sniper unit knew very well it was the symbol of the Waffen SS, and chose to identify themselves with it anyway.

Which, knowing the attitudes of US soldiers, doesn't really surprise me.
I wasn't trying to say, "Oh well the Scout Snipers had this logo before anyone else. I've said it earlier, Public Education doesn't cover much beyond: Blitzkrieg, Holocaust, D-Day, and the A-Bombs. Most people don't recognize the SS logo, they know the swastika and the golden eagle off the top of their heads.

As for the pointed hat logo? If it was someone in Europe then I'm guessing there would be a lot of people saying he should get cut some slack, because he didn't know what the logo meant in a different part of the world
 

RoBi3.0

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GoaThief said:
RoBi3.0 said:
Furthermore, the swastika and Sig rune (what the thread was originally about) have existed for thousands of years before Nazi culture, and had very different meanings. Is it right to throw away thousand of years of symbolic meaning because of a handful of decades were the symbol was perverted to represent evil?
I don't actually believe that you are so dim-witted, which is why I asked. You just made a poor comparison, but it was interesting to know there's a town called swastika.

The part I quoted above is a different argument, context is all-important. When people who fought against that symbol are still alive and kicking, I don't think it would be appropriate for the same military they were in to employ it especially when you consider it's recent connotations. There's a world of difference between that and a Scandinavian traditionalist going about wearing a lightning rune. More to the point, the actual flag that's caused this outcry is a perfect SS replica - hardly something as innocuous as the Kiss logo for example. This may blow your mind but I am seriously considering a sayagata tattoo, which is basically interlocking swastikas, and I also know quite a few people with swastika tattoos.

You make a good point, about the military. I for one don't think they should have posed in front of that flag I personally wouldn't have. As I am not the type of person that would go out of my way to potentially offended someone. That being said what's done is done, there is no use in getting raged out about a photos that by my understanding was taken several years ago. To me it is not a situation that should have struck up a national debate. It should have been brought to the Military's attention and handled internally.

Anyways your sayagata tattoo is indeed interesting. I initially didn't see the swastikas, as my eyes were naturally drawn to the lotus like flower that seems to radiate from the center.
 

Iwata

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Lionsfan said:
Iwata said:
Lionsfan said:
Iwata said:
Lionsfan said:
Iwata said:
Did you hear me saying anything about Americans? Idiots come in all shapes and sizes.
You didn't, but by arguing that they should be held responsible for using a symbol that they might not have known about it just adds to the general thought of this thread about stupid Marines and stupid Americans
I find it very, very, VERY hard to find that people in a military medium would not know what the symbol stands for. Americans or not, soldiers from an army that fought against the Nazis will know that symbol. Hell, you'd think ONE of them would know it and go "hey guys, that kinda looks familiar"...
That's possible, but one of the Scout Sniper logo's has been in use for quite a while now, and in said logo, there's a stylized SS on the logo,



So when one of them got a hold of the flag, they might not have seen it as the SS logo. That logo isn't really taught in a public education history class. It usually goes, rise of the Nazi's, start of the Blitzkrieg, go to the Holocaust, then back to the War for D-Day and the Atomic Bombings. The SS doesn't really get covered
I wasn't taught about the SS logo at school. I learned it through my own reading and overall general culture. Someone, at some stage, should have intervened and said that maybe that logo wasn't such a hot idea. As it is, that simplified version in the photo is even worse, since it removes ALL but the offending elements. You can see how that might be interpreted "wrong".

But to me, there's just no ambiguity. They knew the symbol, and they knew where it came from. We can sit here and dish out excuses for them all day long, but in the end, it comes down to them believing we're as stupid as they want us to think they are.
I guess that's what it all boils down to. Whether or not you think it was on purpose or not. I guess it's just something we'll have to agree to disagree
Indeed, good sir.

There is one other consideration that should be taken into account, though: the vast number of radicals who join the military as training for other, nefarious purposes, often imaginary. They would be the kind of people to take no umbrage with the usage of this symbol.
 

Treblaine

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3 legged goat said:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46329740/ns/us_news/t/marines-posed-nazi-ss-symbol-afghanistan/#.Tzc7zOP-_9o

I found this story when looking for a Current Event for my class, and my first reaction was facepalm, really, you thought it meant Sniper Scout. This is the reason everyone thinks Americans are retarded. Soldiers who think that the Nazi SS symbol means Sniper Scout. Even if it was true (which it wasn't) they would still be the least educated people ever. If you have had a History class, you have seen the SS symbol. What do you think about this?
Show me the part of mandatory history curriculum in the United States where the SS symbol is labelled and identified. I mean actual codified curriculum, not assumption that a school with label Nazi memorabilia on their own initiative. Maybe your history class covered what others didn't.

I know that symbol because I'm a bit of a history buff and it was never explicitly stated in my formal education. I know no popular movies that explicitly state it's a nazi symbol, this is not a matter of common knowledge.

PS: appropriate way to refer to these infantrymen is as "Marines" not "soldiers". Infantry is the general term for both Marines and Soldiers. Marines in Marine Corps, Soldiers in Army. See, everyone is ignorant of something.
 

natster43

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It seems like the marines were just being stupid and thought it was either silly or close enough to their logo to use. That's how I see this.
 

godofallu

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I'm not surprised. Ever met a pack of infantry members (US low level)?

This is a generalization, and not true of the entirety of them. But they are generally poorly educated racist rednecks who are only there because they either have no other options or were completely and utterly deceived by marketing and think killing people is good for America.
 
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As far as I know that is not the SS Nazi symbol just similar and there has been a symbol in use by the US for years that is like the SS symbol. I suppose we should ban all forms of swastikas as well because Hitler used a version of it too?

I understand this is a sensitive area for some people but as far as I can see this usage is not a big deal.
 

Dastardly

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3 legged goat said:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46329740/ns/us_news/t/marines-posed-nazi-ss-symbol-afghanistan/#.Tzc7zOP-_9o

I found this story when looking for a Current Event for my class, and my first reaction was facepalm, really, you thought it meant Sniper Scout. This is the reason everyone thinks Americans are retarded. Soldiers who think that the Nazi SS symbol means Sniper Scout. Even if it was true (which it wasn't) they would still be the least educated people ever. If you have had a History class, you have seen the SS symbol. What do you think about this?
I think that I've had many history classes in my life, and none of them felt it was a good use of our time to focus on Nazi Iconography. We saw the swastika, and that about covered it.

If you haven't specifically dedicated time to studying WWII on its own, it's not just possible but highly likely that you've never encountered this symbol. It would be supremely arrogant for someone to believe that just because they themselves are familiar with a particular factoid, that anyone who isn't is, how was it put, retarded?

It would be like an American moving to Finland and wondering why he doesn't get the 4th of July off anymore. We teach WWII here, but we don't devote a week to making sure everyone has all of the very generic symbols straight.

So we've got a story here in which people are finding reasons to be outraged. I'd like to present a couple alternate scenarios:

1. Some young guys were fiddling around with symbols for their unit, and someone figured out, "Hey, draw S's like this, and they look like lightning bolts. Lightning bolts are cool and strike from far away, like us!" That's right. It's entirely possible a few young soldiers thought lightning bolts were cool, and happened to also look like the initials of their unit. That's exactly how the SS chose that symbol, by the way.

2. Some young guys were fiddling around with symbols for their unit, and someone figured, "Hey, the SS used this symbol in WWII. We beat their asses, so now the symbol's OURS." So, on the off chance that someone in the unit knew it was an SS symbol, there's just that small outside chance that, hey, maybe they weren't using it maliciously. Maybe it serves as a reminder that, "Hey, we've beaten worse than these guys." Or maybe it's just prideful posturing.

Bottom line, not every time someone is "outraged" by something does it mean someone maliciously set out to outrage them. It's highly unlikely that this is a unit full of Nazi sympathizers. It's far more likely they didn't realize what it was -- hell, it looks a little like something you'd find on a 70's/80's metal band album cover -- and now they're being executed in the court of public opinion over it.
 

LarenzoAOG

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3 legged goat said:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46329740/ns/us_news/t/marines-posed-nazi-ss-symbol-afghanistan/#.Tzc7zOP-_9o

I found this story when looking for a Current Event for my class, and my first reaction was facepalm, really, you thought it meant Sniper Scout. This is the reason everyone thinks Americans are retarded. Soldiers who think that the Nazi SS symbol means Sniper Scout. Even if it was true (which it wasn't) they would still be the least educated people ever. If you have had a History class, you have seen the SS symbol. What do you think about this?
The knew what the SS lightning bolts were, many Marine Scout Snipers have SS tattoos and things, not because they are racist, but because the SS trained the best snipers, and of course the initials of Scout Sniper is SS.

While I don't expect everyone to understand U.S. Military jargon and the like I understand that the symbol isn't everyone's favorite. While the SS weren't the most wholesome lot they were some badass soldiers, and that is where the SS ligthning bolts/Marine Scout Sniper thing coems into play.

Does that at least clear some stuff up?
 

Dastardly

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boyvirgo666 said:
I know alot of marines and they are that dumb. Not all marines are that dumb but a lot of them are. Its the army of one mentality and constantly telling them they are the best that breeds that.
"Army of one" is the Army's little slogan.

You might know some "dumb" people who ended up marines, but that's people. Not marines.

As for "telling them they are the best"... how else do you think, throughout millenia of wars, nations have been able to convince men to put their lives on the line? By pumping them up, getting them motivated, tapping the aggression they will need to survive a combat situation. That's right -- actual combat doesn't favor the "smarter" or "more pensive" combatant. It favors the more aggressive and confident one.

While that kind of personality doesn't often win friends during peacetime, at least try to recognize that it is absolutely critical during war time. And you can't wait until wartime to get it started, unfortunately.

Try to understand it a bit. War requires different tools than peace. You don't use a hammer to saw wood, but a saw doesn't just assume a hammer is "too stupid."
 

Jadak

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I'd buy that excuse, seeing as how I wouldn't have been aware that's what that symbol was either. Good for a laugh, anyways. Honest mistake as far as I'm concerned.

And to most of people commenting, this has little to do with the guys being dumb or not. Either they're lying, and did it knowingly, or it's purely a matter of that symbol knowledge.

Not having been made aware of the historical meaning of a specific symbol has little to do with whether or not you're an idiot.
 

KiKiweaky

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Oh dear :\

Bet they feel silly now it stands for shutzstaffel (although its sounds like shotting staff) it actually means defence corps or protection squadron. Originating as a unit of volunteers from the nsdap to provide security for nazi party meetings it grew into the monster we know today. There were a load of branches and offshoots but one of them was the totenkopfverbande (the unit that was respnsible for the concentration camps) so eh sorry guys better get that sign the fuck out of sight, like right now!
 

tofulove

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what what what! all this time the ss was a nazi thing, all this time i bin hanging it in my front yard, i thought it meant silver surfer, no wonder why my house was getting egged all the time, jeez im so stupid. good thing some one pointed that out for me.
 

Terminal Blue

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Beliyal said:
The Nazis adopted it and changed it a bit, so it doesn't look the same as the one from the elder futhark (or other runic scripts), but it still is the sigel rune and it's very similar, and it fitted their needs.
Like I said. I think it's quite easy to tell this:


or even this..


..from this..


I know even the latter rune predates the nazis and the argument wasn't that noone should be allowed to use it, only that it has virtually no relevance to modern society outside of very specific circles of Armanen runelore and the far right (which are generally linked anyway). There is no reason to put that rune on a flag and display it, even the Armanen-Orden (which is itself a fairly racist organization) doesn't use it as an official symbol. It has no historical connection to any particular cause or ideal except one.

When I said a meaningless symbol, I didn't mean to say meaningless. Most arbitrary symbols which became associated with horrible causes are not meaningless. Heck, if you display this flag on your house in Afghanistan.


Those marines would probably kill you, wheras if you display this flag:


which has exactly the same verse in a different font, you're fine (if a bit weird).

mirasiel said:
Prince Harry (also a member of the British military)in Hilarious fancy dress, didnt see the problem...

Fucking Euros/Brits, typical Eurotrash ignorance, don't they know any better :p
Yes, clearly they do, because I was here when that happened and noone stood up with tears in their eyes asking why everyone was being so mean to prince Harry and can't we just accept it was an honest mistake because you know he's really speshul and important and can't be held to account for anything he does.

The guy was held over hot coals by the media over that, his reputation (what little he had since everything else which has surfaced about him paints him as an entitled little **** with all the racial and cultural sensitivity of a goldfish) has never recovered and most importantly when he was caught out he issued an unconditional apology, he didn't try to bullshit that it was an honest mistake, he apologized generally, and also directly to some of the Jewish organizations which he had offended. The palace sent him off on a public display of hair-shirt wearing charity work in Africa while people calmed down, it was a big deal and people acknowledged it as such.

Even so, Prince Harry won't be king, his own family will do everything within its power to ensure he isn't. The monarchy knows damn well it probably wouldn't survive Prince Harry being crowned king because public opinion of him remains that low, partly because of things like that. To compare that gaffe with this one is ludicrous, because noone defended that one.