Mass Effect 3 Petition Raises Funds For Charity

The.Bard

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I sadly can't contribute much here. I haven't beaten the game yet and I dare not read ANY comments for fear of spoilers.

BUT... this is the first anti-Bioware platform that I can say I approve of. It almost seems to defy expectations... it's actually contributing back to society and appears in description to be both civil AND constructive. I'm shocked.

claps
Well done, internet. THIS is how you engage with a developer when you disapprove of something they've done. I think in general the artist needs room to make the art, but hey, conversation is good.

I just hope they don't make any changes before I beat the game. I want to see this ending everyone is up in arms over and see if it really stinks or if it's just the internet being the internet. I'm guessing it's the latter, but I wasn't a fan of the ending for ME2, either, so anything's possible...
 

intheweeds

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MisterShine said:
Wharrgarble said:
But can we at least appreciate that people are upset enough to try and DO something about it...?
...no. No I can't.

What kind of ridiculous mindset is that?

"This story didn't go the way I wanted it to go, I'm going to try and get it changed!"

When the hell has that ever happened in any other artistic medium? When? There are hundreds of books, movies, tv shows, anime, blah blah that all have undefined or bleak endings, and are lauded as some of the best those mediums have to offer. It is ludicrous and childish that video games seems to be an exception to that.

Maybe you didn't like the endings or felt they weren't complete or illogical or blah blah blah, you want to criticize them, go right ahead. In fact please do. Write a giant doctoral thesis on why you think the endings are objectively shit, but do not have the sheer hubris to think that you get to change another person's work of art.
Quoted for serious truth. To everyone in this thread who thinks it matters whether you've seen the ending to comment on this - it doesn't. It doesn't matter whether you have seen the ending or not - it is not your work to change.

This isn't a matter of "Oh if you've seen it you would agree". I may perhaps hate the ending. Doesn't matter. It is still not my work to change. No amount of bitching has gotten the Star Wars prequels 'unmade' or Jarjar Binks removed. Do I agree they are a disease on the Star Wars universe? Sure - but it isn't my creation. Canon is decided by the creator and no one else whether I or anyone else likes it or not.

The ending to Battlestar Galactica asked more questions than it answered, but it is what it is. When you spend money on a book, a movie, a game, an album or anything created by an artist, you are risking not liking some or all of it. You don't get to harass Metallica until they change that song you didn't like on the Black Album. You don't get to letter bomb Quentin Tarantino because you though this one character wasn't fleshed out enough and didn't fit with the story. Hell you don't see anyone donating money and demanding the costume in the green lantern movie be fixed to appease his fans. If someone can reasonably explain why this is any different...

Edit: Even when people hate everything the don't ask for it to be changed. If someone sees a movie and just hated it - I mean it was awful from start to finish - don't people usually ask for their money back? I've never heard someone come out of a crappy movie and say "That movie was awful! I want them to change it!". No they say "I want my money back". You rent a movie and hate it? Most blockbusters will let you rent a different one for free instead. Order food from a chef and dislike it? Money back.

So ask for your money back if you're so upset.
 

Mack Muir

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I just wanted to say Andy.. Thank you for the article, but I do have to disagree about a few parts. First when you get to the ending I do hope you might understand. Everyone I talked to who has played the game be it long term fan like me or a new fan, and even someone who didn't play but is a writer. they all agreed that the ending was lazy fiction with too many plot holes, and no closure.

That isn't the way to end a series, and more so a series as big as mass effect. Something happened at bioware, I am not sure what, but some how a game that was 99% amazing dropped off the deep end at the last 10 minutes of the game, and the sad part is when you get to that last 10 minutes they could have easily ended it right before the last part. It felt rushed, it was forced, and without giving anything away it came out of no where.

I know there is a debate over it being art and they have a reason to ending it the way they want, and that is correct to a degree. It is easy to see them as artist first, but what we need to remember is that while being an artist ( I am one myself to a degree ) they are also a business, and in this world business come first because bioware, and EA are out to make money. That's it. When you get down to the core of their company. It is to make money through these games.

Yes bioware has a right to end the game the way they want, but they also have to remember that they are a repeat business. If you look at Mass Effect 2. Half of their profit from that game was DLC.

As it is right now a lot of people are saying they will not buy the DLC. I know personally I will not buy it because for me ( and I am not the only one to say this ) The universe seems empty. I am personally having trouble trying to do a second run through ME3, and finding it trouble to do a complete run through the games like I planned. the drive is not there to play. It feels ruined for me the ending, and the sad part is I keep on reading the same messages by fans from BSN, to facebook, and to even other non mass effect sources.

My point is if they want to keep people happy, and keep people spending money on DLC ( DLC revenue is an important part of their business model ) then they will have to give in some how. I know some might be upset that their art is being changed, but they are once again a business, the bottom line is they are out to make money, and they need to make money.

Plus as customers we did buy their product. we bought a product we didn't know how it was going to end, or how how good the game was. Unlike if we were buying a painting, or a sculpture where we can see all of the art. With Mass Effect we go into this without a complete picture of what we are going to get. It would be strange to complain after getting the painting, but on the other hand lets say it would be a custom painting that we have no clue what the final product will be. If we don't like it, then we have a right to return it, or complaint about it, and even ask to fix it. With Mass Effect 3 you have many different people who feel that they were not satisfied with the product, and because they did buy this product, and didn't have a clue what was in it. They do have a right to complain, and more so if the game asks you to buy DLC at the end of it. ( It has a pop up at the end after the credits advertising DLC to come )

I know you and others think that were ludicrous, and wrong to ask for change of the ending of the game, but let me point out. This isn't the first time this has happened. There was a little game that came out a few years ago by the name of Fall Out 3, and by the fans wanting a better ending, so they released a great story driven DLC 6 months after the game was released. It was called broken steel, and that is what we want. We want a broken steel that explain the plot holes, and closes the ending to what some of us, including myself, consider as the greatest Sci Fi Space Opera of this gaming generation. What is wrong with that?
 

Blind0bserver

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gigastar said:
This is just a warning for you, expect flames from the Bioware forums.

They arent pleased.

http://social.bioware.com/forum/Mass-Effect-3/Mass-Effect-3-Story-and-Campaign-Discussion-Spoilers-Allowed/Idiot-Contributor-to-Escapist-Magazine-Sneers-at-RetakeMassEffect-campaign-9933761-1.html
Oh, for the love of God...

Okay, I've been doing my best not to chime in on ay of this nonsense on these forums, but at this point I don't think I can avoid it any longer.

I'm not going to disagree with this "movement" that there are issues with the endings. No, there are problems, and even then I'd honestly just be happy if everything was still as-is but with some kind of epilogue that gave some closure. I wasn't exactly expecting something like how The Lord of the Rings movies ended with close to half an hour worth of closure, but something would have been appreciated.

That said, all of this outcry for Bioware to make a new ending is completely out of line. Don't try to give me the argument that, as a consumer, you weren't delivered the product you wanted. No, that's rubbish and irrelevant. No, my annoyance with all this comes down to the apparent sense of entitlement these folks have in terms of demanding changes to what is, in essence, someone else's creative work.

I realize that Bioware's fanbase can be called several things. "Vocal", for example. "Passionate". "Unpleasable", if you want to get presumptuous. Still, you need to keep in mind that this is a fanbase who's vocal complaints effectively patched a book [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/115689-Bioware-to-Fix-Error-Laden-Mass-Effect-Novel], so I imagine this lot thinks they're capable of anything at this point. That's my problem here, the fact that they're even trying. This is something that disgusts me quite a bit, especially because I'm an artist myself. What is happening here, in a nutshell, is that these people are looking at the creative work of another person and are saying "You know what? I don't like this part. Do it over and try again."

I don't care how emotionally goddamn invested you've gotten in the series, there is nothing that gives you the right to tell Bioware that the story that they crafted needs to be done over because of your own opinions about it. That is simply not how it works.

Maybe something will come of this, maybe it won't. Perhaps a new ending might turn up at some point and everyone will be happy, but the fact that we've reached the point where people are making outright demands like this that they expect to be met is just galling.

~V
 

intheweeds

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Wharrgarble said:
You know what I'm seeing a lot of lately?

"I haven't finished the game yet, but..."

"I'm not a fan of Mass Effect, but..."

"I only ever played five minutes of the original game, but..."

Why does anyone think they have a reason to speak out about something that they haven't even experienced for themselves?
Because the argument is NOT: 'Did the ending suck and how bad?'

If it was, sure you would not be able to comment if you hadn't seen it. I'm sure it does suck. An awful lot of people seem to think so for it to be all that good. But we aren't debating whether or not the ending was any good.

The argument really IS: 'Does anyone have the right to change a work of art because they didn't like it?'

and it doesn't matter if you've experienced the ending to anything to have an opinion on that.
 

gigastar

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GamesB2 said:
gigastar said:
Fine, to my credence in this discussion, ill go watch the endings.

But please keep in mind Mass Effect certainly wont be the first fictional series to get a side story that contributes to the overall plot without ever crossing with the main plot. If it does get a side story.
Please, I'm more than fine with that, a side story that only connects to the main series plot in a tiny way if at all?

Make it good and I'm sold, expanded universe is something I like, release a game that follows a squad of Krogans in the Rachni war? Fuck yeah. Possibly a bad example but you get the idea.

However the idea that there could be a sequel that explains away the ending to Mass Effect 3 and continues as if nothing on a galaxy shattering scale happened is a fate worse than death for the Mass Effect series.
Ok, watched the endings. They are Shep killing him/herself to...

-Destroy all Reapers.
-Order the Reapers to stand down.
-Assume Direct Control of the Reapers.

Then going to that article [http://www.gamefront.com/mass-effect-3-ending-hatred-5-reasons-the-fans-are-right] on Gamefront to grab some context for the endings, i can see why fans would be flaming outraged.

Plotholes, contradictions, discarding player choice, loose ends and bereving players to buy DLC. Nothing new for EA to have them on thier own, but a retch inducing first for them to have them all at once.

I think ill stand down from this for now, except for urinating on people who are claiming entitlement to a better ending.
 

intheweeds

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Mack Muir said:
I know there is a debate over it being art and they have a reason to ending it the way they want, and that is correct to a degree. It is easy to see them as artist first, but what we need to remember is that while being an artist ( I am one myself to a degree ) they are also a business, and in this world business come first because bioware, and EA are out to make money. That's it. When you get down to the core of their company. It is to make money through these games.

Yes bioware has a right to end the game the way they want, but they also have to remember that they are a repeat business. If you look at Mass Effect 2. Half of their profit from that game was DLC.
Mack Muir said:
Plus as customers we did buy their product. we bought a product we didn't know how it was going to end, or how how good the game was. Unlike if we were buying a painting, or a sculpture where we can see all of the art. With Mass Effect we go into this without a complete picture of what we are going to get. It would be strange to complain after getting the painting, but on the other hand lets say it would be a custom painting that we have no clue what the final product will be. If we don't like it, then we have a right to return it, or complaint about it, and even ask to fix it.
You conveniently forgot movies, television, books and music in your art comparison. I believe you will find all of these mediums are businesses that rely on repeat customers. I believe you will find that business comes first to all professional artists. That's sort of how they make money.

You will also find all of these mediums I described as having the element of the final customer not knowing 'exactly' what they are going to get as well. If you knew the whole movie, book whatever beforehand you wouldn't buy it. Would it be strange to complain after seeing a movie or reading a book? People do it all the time.

I thought the last Hunger Games book sucked. Do I get to write Suzanne Collins and make her change it? Or is that really a matter of 'how bad is it'? How bad does it have to be before we can have it changed and who decides how bad it is?

I would agree that a custom painting should be sent back for revisions if it is not up to spec; it is a commission job. You hired someone to do a job and you are seeing it is done properly. But seriously, you did not 'commission' Mass Effect any more than I 'commissioned' Star Wars.
 

sifffffff

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Might be singing a different tune about how ridiculous it is when you see the endings Andy.

intheweeds said:
I thought the last Hunger Games book sucked. Do I get to write Suzanne Collins and make her change it? Or is that really a matter of 'how bad is it'? How bad does it have to be before we can have it changed and who decides how bad it is?
Books, television, movies and paintings are all "passive" forms of art. You have no influence over the story you're experiencing. Games are "active" forms of art. You have some control over a story given the framework the developer provides you.

Here's how I see it:
The story is the canvas. The developer is the paintbrush and paint and the person who drew the outlines in pencil. The player is the person filling up the canvas with paint.

They didn't do any of the hard work and only really have to "fill in the lines" but they get to choose what colors they use. If suddenly they're told the palette only has the color red on it when they've always had multiple options before I don't think it's unreasonable for them to get a little defiant and ask for more colors.

It doesn't mean we'll get more colors. But it also doesn't mean we don't have any right to ask for them.

But I like that people are asking for it in a positive way instead of attacking Bioware employees or starting a smear campaign.

I do agree with you the last Hunger Games book sucked hard.
 

Erttheking

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Andy, I can guarantee you that you'll be whistling a different tune once you beat the game.
 

leafs43

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So you haven't beaten Mass Effect 3, don't understand what players are talking about and yet here you are making snide remarks towards them....

classy.
 

walsfeo

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Not liking the endings is just fine. I am about to get to them, but even if I really don't like them, I can't foresee any circumstance where I would see it rational to do anything more than say "Hey, these guys did a poor job with the ending. It would have been better if it ended with X". (And yeah, having a stock A, B, C, ending when he criticized just that kind of think makes him a total bozo and could be considered fraudulent. It probably shouldn't be, but it could.)

As for not getting the endings for the other characters - I'm getting most of that stuff as I'm playing through the game. Sure they may have new beginnings after the main story, but that kind of separate story line could be covered in DLC.

I find the movement to make an official change very amusing but it speaks to the attachment players have to the story line and that's not something to mock.
 

Andy Chalk

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YOUR TEARS. THEY ARE SWEET.

BRING THEM TO ME.

...

On a more serious note, let me clarify again for those who still don't get it that it's not about how bad the ending is but the inherent silliness of demanding a do-over because you didn't like what you got. It's the internet equivalent of planting a big, sloppy kiss on a famous painting. What relevance to that is there in whether or not I've finished the game?

(Rhetorical question. Please don't feel obliged to answer.)
 

walsfeo

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Andy Chalk said:
On a more serious note, let me clarify again for those who still don't get it that it's not about how bad the ending is but the inherent silliness of demanding a do-over because you didn't like what you got. It's the internet equivalent of planting a big, sloppy kiss on a famous painting. What relevance to that is there in whether or not I've finished the game?
Preach it!
 

leafs43

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Andy Chalk said:
YOUR TEARS. THEY ARE SWEET.

BRING THEM TO ME.

...

On a more serious note, let me clarify again for those who still don't get it that it's not about how bad the ending is but the inherent silliness of demanding a do-over because you didn't like what you got. It's the internet equivalent of planting a big, sloppy kiss on a famous painting. What relevance to that is there in whether or not I've finished the game?

(Rhetorical question. Please don't feel obliged to answer.)

You yourself have admitted you have not finished the game, and thus have not any contextual reference.

Players aren't complaining about the ending because its sad, or its over or this and that. They are complaining because the endings are both nonsensical and completely counter to the entire game and series.

In short, beat the game, then you'll realize how much of your foot is in your mouth.
 

WolfLord

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MisterShine said:
Wharrgarble said:
But can we at least appreciate that people are upset enough to try and DO something about it...?
...no. No I can't.

What kind of ridiculous mindset is that?

"This story didn't go the way I wanted it to go, I'm going to try and get it changed!"

When the hell has that ever happened in any other artistic medium? When? There are hundreds of books, movies, tv shows, anime, blah blah that all have undefined or bleak endings, and are lauded as some of the best those mediums have to offer. It is ludicrous and childish that video games seems to be an exception to that.

Maybe you didn't like the endings or felt they weren't complete or illogical or blah blah blah, you want to criticize them, go right ahead. In fact please do. Write a giant doctoral thesis on why you think the endings are objectively shit, but do not have the sheer hubris to think that you get to change another person's work of art.

Alright. That's all I got.

edit: actually...

Wharrgarble said:
This "Child's Play" donation drive at the very least is bringing a little bit of good into a bad situation.
I'll happily agree on that.
Yes, they can. It has happened before, and worked before. Both examples I have are from your "other artistic mediums".
A. Neon Genesis Evangelion- the ending created so much bellyaching that they went and made a whole movie to redo the ending. And now they are making more movies to "fix" the entire series.
B. Great Expectations- Charles Dickens rewrote the end when people said the ending was too sad. Back in 1861!

Now do they "need" to make a new ending? Of course not, but considering how vitriolic the reactions has been it would be a damn good idea to do some major damage control. I personally hope they do something, but don't DEMAND that they do. That is haughty and entitled, but simply wanting and working toward that want isn't.
 

intheweeds

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aftohsix said:
Might be singing a different tune about how ridiculous it is when you see the endings Andy.

intheweeds said:
I thought the last Hunger Games book sucked. Do I get to write Suzanne Collins and make her change it? Or is that really a matter of 'how bad is it'? How bad does it have to be before we can have it changed and who decides how bad it is?
Books, television, movies and paintings are all "passive" forms of art. You have no influence over the story you're experiencing. Games are "active" forms of art. You have some control over a story given the framework the developer provides you.

Here's how I see it:
The story is the canvas. The developer is the paintbrush and paint and the person who drew the outlines in pencil. The player is the person filling up the canvas with paint.

They didn't do any of the hard work and only really have to "fill in the lines" but they get to choose what colors they use. If suddenly they're told the palette only has the color red on it when they've always had multiple options before I don't think it's unreasonable for them to get a little defiant and ask for more colors.

It doesn't mean we'll get more colors. But it also doesn't mean we don't have any right to ask for them.

But I like that people are asking for it in a positive way instead of attacking Bioware employees or starting a smear campaign.

I do agree with you the last Hunger Games book sucked hard.
I can see where you are coming from, but I must admit my first thought was 'Choose your Own Adventure' doesn't count I guess?

Regardless, the complaint is with the storyline am I correct? If the story is 'the canvas' and the lines the player is 'filling in', how would the player ever be interactive with the creation of the story?

By this I mean, one of the complaints is that the three endings are A, B and C. Someone on the development side wrote ending A, B and C before the player ever got to them. No amount of different colored crayons will change the fact that you don't like the line drawing. In this case, the player is Shepard. The different crayons the player uses are gameplay mechanics, weapons, tactics, etc. All those were written in by the devs for reasons for you to use. More crayons would be more of those. The only place the player has interaction and 'say' in how the story goes is the order he/she wishes to talk to npcs, do missions and the mechanics they choose to employ.

The story was written before and doesn't change. This story has branches which lead to different endings like a choose your own adventure, but the player is still not writing any story as they play.
 
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gigastar said:
Ok, watched the endings. They are Shep killing him/herself to...

-Destroy all Reapers.
-Order the Reapers to stand down.
-Assume Direct Control of the Reapers.

Then going to that article [http://www.gamefront.com/mass-effect-3-ending-hatred-5-reasons-the-fans-are-right] on Gamefront to grab some context for the endings, i can see why fans would be flaming outraged.

Plotholes, contradictions, discarding player choice, loose ends and bereving players to buy DLC. Nothing new for EA to have them on thier own, but a retch inducing first for them to have them all at once.

I think ill stand down from this for now, except for urinating on people who are claiming entitlement to a better ending.
From now on I have decided to believe that Bioware crash landed the ending of ME3 so hard that the internet shook in some desperate attempt to make sure it was the last in the series and interest will be so low that EA won't ask them to do another, then fire them when they don't want to do another and then go right ahead and stick some developer who couldn't give two shits about the series and is only continuing it cause of a paycheck into the development position.

Mass Effect 4. (RPG elements not included)
 

Blind0bserver

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Andy Chalk said:
YOUR TEARS. THEY ARE SWEET.

BRING THEM TO ME.
You see, Andy? This is why I love you... in a completely heterosexual, "Jay and Silent Bob" kind of way, of course.
 

Blind0bserver

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GamesB2 said:
From now on I have decided to believe that Bioware crash landed the ending of ME3 so hard that the internet shook in some desperate attempt to make sure it was the last in the series and interest will be so low that EA won't ask them to do another, then fire them when they don't want to do another and then go right ahead and stick some developer who couldn't give two shits about the series and is only continuing it cause of a paycheck into the development position.

Mass Effect 4. (RPG elements not included)
So in a nutshell you think that Bioware torched the franchise and ran [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TorchTheFranchiseAndRun] to keep the series from shambling along far longer than they originally intended. Interesting.