Mass Grave of Over 200 Children Found at Former Canadian Residential School

Silvanus

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You should probably pay attention yourself. I introduced that pandemic as a reference point to other epidemics, of which there are many recorded that swept through those schools.
If you expect an average epidemic to produce the same extraordinary pressure and circumstances as the greatest pandemic in modern history, then you're being ridiculous.

You cited one example of a mass grave from the 1918 pandemic as evidence that this wasn't limited to natives. So... it happened to non-natives at least once during the greatest pandemic in modern history, but it happened to natives frequently in lesser epidemics? That's... not a good argument. That would still indicate a massive discrepancy in treatment.

Talking about how they didn't have to deal with anything that bad is ignoring all the existing documentation of those schools. I provided you a source that the Canadian government destroyed most of the funeral records from the Kamloops Residential School. Insisting the school never kept those records is wasting your breath. The government mandated indigenous children be crammed into boarding school, the government neglected them, and then the government shut down the operation and destroyed the records. Putting the blame on anyone else is stupid.
Once again, simply ignoring the Commission, which categorically stated that even when records were taken, they were missing the most basic information, and that no proper procedure was in place for 20 years.

You're flatly contradicting the report.
 

PointlessKnowledge

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Funny you should say that. She we read? Hmm, ok, the Church had this orphanage. And then the government started using it, and things went to hell. Strange pattern you've found.
Sure, let us read.

A pattern of physical and sexual abuse of more than 300 orphanage residents perpetrated by staff members, specifically members of the Christian Brothers of Ireland in Canada (CBIC), was uncovered during the late 1980s and early 1990s.
Look, the Catholics were abusing their authority and innocents had to pay for it, again.

Strange pattern you've chosen to ignore.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Funny you should say that. She we read? Hmm, ok, the Church had this orphanage. And then the government started using it, and things went to hell. Strange pattern you've found.
I'm just saying that most people don't want to defend baby murdering child rapists. That you do is on you, but most people don't agree with liking baby murdering child rapists. That's one of those lines people don't like to cross.

It's actually a bit disturbing that you can be shown multiple times that the church is staffed with baby murdering child rapists and come out saying they've done nothing wrong. Most people, I think, would stand against baby murdering child rapists. And if an organization has a reliable problem of containing baby murdering child rapists, most people would see that as a fault. Just like how most people would find fault with an organization that helped other baby murdering child rapists escape justice.

The catholic church looks like a club for baby murdering child rapists to swap stories and aid to each other in their effort to murder babies and rape children. All I'm saying is, if you held up a picture of a catholic priest and Vlad Tepes, I'm not sure I could tell the difference.
 
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Thaluikhain

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I'm just saying that most people don't want to defend baby murdering child rapists. That you do is on you, but most people don't agree with liking baby murdering child rapists. That's one of those lines people don't like to cross.

It's actually a bit disturbing that you can be shown multiple times that the church is staffed with baby murdering child rapists and come out saying they've done nothing wrong. Most people, I think, would stand against baby murdering child rapists. And if an organization has a reliable problem of containing baby murdering child rapists, most people would see that as a fault. Just like how most people would find fault with an organization that helped other baby murdering child rapists escape justice.

The catholic church looks like a club for baby murdering child rapists to swap stories and aid to each other in their effort to murder babies and rape children. All I'm saying is, if you held up a picture of a catholic priest and Vlad Tepes, I'm not sure I could tell the difference.
"Most people" might be like that in the general sense, talking about vague hypotheticals, but given a specific instance where the perpetrator is someone/something they like and I'd not be that optimistic.
 
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tstorm823

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Not as if it's endemic in Catholic institutions elsewhere quite independent of government control.

Oh, wait...
I mean, the Catholic Church does more good and less evil than really every other major institution in the history of the world. It's just big enough for a lot of bad anecdotes to fit into when you take a large portion of the global population over thousands of years as a single group.
I'm just saying that most people don't want to defend baby murdering child rapists. That you do is on you, but most people don't agree with liking baby murdering child rapists. That's one of those lines people don't like to cross.

It's actually a bit disturbing that you can be shown multiple times that the church is staffed with baby murdering child rapists and come out saying they've done nothing wrong. Most people, I think, would stand against baby murdering child rapists. And if an organization has a reliable problem of containing baby murdering child rapists, most people would see that as a fault. Just like how most people would find fault with an organization that helped other baby murdering child rapists escape justice.

The catholic church looks like a club for baby murdering child rapists to swap stories and aid to each other in their effort to murder babies and rape children. All I'm saying is, if you held up a picture of a catholic priest and Vlad Tepes, I'm not sure I could tell the difference.
I know you think I'm biased and you're being reasonable, but you're still carrying the "an infant died, someone must have murdered them" assumption. You just want the Catholic Church to be guilty. Like, this thread is about a place where the government of Canada took control of a Catholic School, took children forcibly away from their families, dumped the two together by force of law, neglected the school, denied them funding, sent them infected patients to house with the children, refused to send all the dead bodies back to their homes, and then erased the funeral records, and you're in here to call the Catholic Church baby murderers because they buried the dead. You have an unhealthy fixation.
Strange pattern you've chosen to ignore.
I know it's the gut reaction to seeing me win the argument this topic is about so handily, but you can all stop deflecting now. It's not my fault that people haven't found an example yet where the care of children in Catholic institutions was a problem without the government heaping piles of neglected children at them without any reasonable way to manage them. I'm sure if you keep trying, you'll find something eventually, at which point you'll have accomplished nothing because I'm still right about this topic. The existence of graves does not mean the Catholics at the schools did anything wrong, particularly when we know the insane pile of wrongs that lead to the circumstances.
Are you Catholic?
I am a Catholic conservative Republican, in that order of relevance. It's not really a secret.
 
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crimson5pheonix

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I know you think I'm biased and you're being reasonable, but you're still carrying the "an infant died, someone must have murdered them" assumption. You just want the Catholic Church to be guilty. Like, this thread is about a place where the government of Canada took control of a Catholic School, took children forcibly away from their families, dumped the two together by force of law, neglected the school, denied them funding, sent them infected patients to house with the children, refused to send all the dead bodies back to their homes, and then erased the funeral records, and you're in here to call the Catholic Church baby murderers because they buried the dead. You have an unhealthy fixation.
I wouldn't call it an unhealthy fixation to call out an organization internationally known as being baby murdering child rapists for murdering babies and raping children. I'd call it an unhealthy fixation to reflexively defend baby murdering and child raping. I mean literally you look baby murdering and child raping in the eyes and say "no, that's okay, it's fine, they're upstanding people, murdering those babies and raping those children".

Though at the very least the Nazi catholics are aging out, so you don't have to worry about them being Nazi baby murdering child rapists much anymore. I'm sure they're doing people a lot better now that one of their many many moral problems is disappearing.
 

PointlessKnowledge

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I know it's the gut reaction to seeing me win the argument this topic is about so handily, but you can all stop deflecting now. It's not my fault that people haven't found an example yet where the care of children in Catholic institutions was a problem without the government heaping piles of neglected children at them without any reasonable way to manage them. I'm sure if you keep trying, you'll find something eventually, at which point you'll have accomplished nothing because I'm still right about this topic. The existence of graves does not mean the Catholics at the schools did anything wrong, particularly when we know the insane pile of wrongs that lead to the circumstances.
Yes, of course. The Newfoundland government gave that bishop child pornography. Everything is the government's fault and not the moral failings that the people of the Catholic church unleash onto the world.
 

Gordon_4

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because they buried the dead.
If the church clergy buried them in good faith, why was the grave unmarked? Not even a single marker bearing a message of 200 unfortunate souls taken too soon to God's grace. I mean turning the other cheek is one thing, but the Catholic Church has never let itself be hard done by; if the government was giving them unreasonable levels of work and no funding, the very least they could have done was go to the Archbishop to try and arrange extra money from the Vatican or failing that, taking up collections from the local faithful. Which would have the advantage of drawing attention to the issue and taking the heat OFF the Church.
 

Agema

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If the church clergy buried them in good faith, why was the grave unmarked? Not even a single marker bearing a message of 200 unfortunate souls taken too soon to God's grace. I mean turning the other cheek is one thing, but the Catholic Church has never let itself be hard done by; if the government was giving them unreasonable levels of work and no funding, the very least they could have done was go to the Archbishop to try and arrange extra money from the Vatican or failing that, taking up collections from the local faithful. Which would have the advantage of drawing attention to the issue and taking the heat OFF the Church.
When thinking about a lasting representation of the glory of God, repairing the nave is a much higher priority than marking the graves of 200 poor, native Americans.

The Catholic church (and other churches) institutionally didn't give a shit. The government didn't give a shit, the general (white majority) population didn't give a shit; and so the ecclesiastical hierarchies didn't give a shit and their congregations didn't give a shit. That's why there was no money for it in the first place: they were hardly going to shake out more dollars for it.

In a way, how much has really changed? Look at the Protestant demoninations sucking their (often low income) congregations dry to build super-churches and pay pastor salaries into the millions. The Krishnas spend their time building amazing temples with beautifully tended gardens just outside Indian cities with many thousands of malnourished homeless. When people are first and foremost looking to the next / after-life, making people's lives on Earth better can come something of a distant second.
 

tstorm823

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Get over yourself.
If I said something like that for every snide comment made about me (rather than to me) in this thread, I'd have to actively post more to keep up. People have given up on making their case, and have nothing left but personal attacks at me. I've won.
If the government was giving them unreasonable levels of work and no funding, the very least they could have done was go to the Archbishop to try and arrange extra money from the Vatican or failing that, taking up collections from the local faithful. Which would have the advantage of drawing attention to the issue and taking the heat OFF the Church.
You don't know that those things didn't happen. It's not as though there would be newspaper records, the rest of society wanted nothing to do with indigenous people. We know the school asked the government for more funding starting shortly after they made attendance mandatory. We know the Canadian government purged a lot of their records of the facilities, including the funeral records from Kamloops Residential School. Society as a whole did not care about these students, the would not have preserved records of the hardships or any efforts made to alleviate them, we just don't know what was done. That being said "they were beating kids to death en masse and then hiding the bodies" is about as likely an explanation as "aliens did it".
 
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Buyetyen

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Because if there's anything the Catholic church can be trusted with, it's the well-being of children.
/s
 
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