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Phoenixmgs

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Excepting the Trump administration doing all of those things, considering all of them happened during his fucking term on orders from his government
Trump derangement syndrome - whatever Trump says we must do the opposite

Trump said you can wear a mask if you want but don't have to (he didn't); Dem response is that everyone must be forced to mask.

Trump imposes travel restrictions on China; Dem response is that's racist.

Trump says schools should open; Dem response is to close schools for 18 months.

Trump warp speeds the vaccine; Dem response is that they won't be safe and effective because Trump admin will influence the FDA to approve it. YET, under Biden, his administration influences the FDA so much over boosters that the top 2 FDA directors resign because they were pressured to approve boosters with no evidence. Funny how the left is so quiet on this front yet if this happened under Trump, we still wouldn't be hearing the end of it. This is way you shouldn't play teams.

That would be causation. But you haven't provided the middle bit, that establishes cause. Without that bit you've just got correlation.
But crime isn’t dropping. According to a recent Research Triangle Institute assessment, police calls for service remain roughly flat in Portland. This may be because the time police aren’t spending on drug crimes is now directed toward property crime, which surged in Portland in the months following Measure 110’s implementation. That shouldn’t be surprising: the Oregon Criminal Justice Commission once estimated that 78 percent of property offenses were committed by people stealing to support their addiction. If drug use is less controlled, it increases, and so do its negative social effects.

And you know what I have to say about that?

That's your degree. Your learning experience and your responsibility. It's up to you to make something of it, and if you chose not to do so then unless there was something objectively deficient in your degree (i.e. the sort you could sue them for) it's your problem and your fault. Or of course that you just picked the wrong course, and that's also your fault.
College does not nearly have enough hands-on learning, even computer classes had papers to write vs doing actual IT stuff via labs. I can tell via new hires that have gone to college recently that they aren't actually learning anything hands-on because they actually can't do the work and you have to teach them. Hence, college being rather pointless.

Okay, I just have to point out you're responding to a post -- written without a shred of irony -- that literally says "I never learned a damn thing about actually researching in college, they just made you write pointless papers." This is like saying "I never learned a damn thing about driving in driver's ed, they just made you push pedals and turn a wheel."
Drivers Ed is like the perfect example. Drivers Ed without actually having the students drive cars is what college is, it's all book learning instead of learning by actually doing something and learning a skill. They know the concept of XYZ, but not how it actually works in the real world. It's like everyone knows the answer to the driving test question about which way to turn the wheel when sliding, but they actually can't correct for a slide when actually driving.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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Trump derangement syndrome - whatever Trump says we must do the opposite

Trump said you can wear a mask if you want but don't have to (he didn't); Dem response is that everyone must be forced to mask.
Trump imposes travel restrictions on China; Dem response is that's racist.
Specifics continue to elude you, I see
Trump says schools should open; Dem response is to close schools for 18 months.
The Democratic Party's control of Trump's and GOP lead governments?
Trump warp speeds the vaccine; Dem response is that they won't be safe and effective because Trump admin will influence the FDA to approve it. YET, under Biden, his administration influences the FDA so much over boosters that the top 2 FDA directors resign because they were pressured to approve boosters with no evidence. Funny how the left is so quiet on this front yet if this happened under Trump, we still wouldn't be hearing the end of it. This is way you shouldn't play teams.
Remind me again of who got vaccinated earliest and most after the vaccine got approved?
 
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Silvanus

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But crime isn’t dropping. According to a recent Research Triangle Institute assessment, police calls for service remain roughly flat in Portland. This may be because the time police aren’t spending on drug crimes is now directed toward property crime, which surged in Portland in the months following Measure 110’s implementation. That shouldn’t be surprising: the Oregon Criminal Justice Commission once estimated that 78 percent of property offenses were committed by people stealing to support their addiction. If drug use is less controlled, it increases, and so do its negative social effects.
Did you respond to the wrong post/person? This doesn't address what I said at all. I asked about whether you can actually link Democratic policies-- causationally-- to the adverse effects you associate with them.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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Specifics continue to elude you, I see
The Democratic Party's control of Trump's and GOP lead governments?

Remind me again of who got vaccinated earliest and most after the vaccine got approved?
Trump was infamous for not masking... everyone knows this...

What specifics, Trump put travel restrictions on China and Dems declared that racist.

What Republican run cities or states had schools closed for 18 months?

Old people. Remind me under who's administration that the 2 top FDA officials quit after being influenced to approve something covid related without any data demonstrating it should be approved?

Did you respond to the wrong post/person? This doesn't address what I said at all. I asked about whether you can actually link Democratic policies-- causationally-- to the adverse effects you associate with them.
78% of property offenses comes from drug addicts. Policy put in place to make being an addict easier creates more drug addicts. Therefore with more drug addicts, property crime increases.

 

TheMysteriousGX

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Trump was infamous for not masking... everyone knows this...
So his administration was "do as I say, not as I do", and?
What specifics, Trump put travel restrictions on China and Dems declared that racist.
You're mad that Donald Trump was called a racist. I'm mad that his travel restrictions were shit. We are not the same. (The racist part was that non-Chinese people weren't banned from entering the US from China, if you were curious)
What Republican run cities or states had schools closed for 18 months?
Is the sticking point the school closures or the specific timeframe of 18 months?
Old people.
Why do you lie about obvious things? GOP 65+ was at 80%
 
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Silvanus

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78% of property offenses comes from drug addicts. Policy put in place to make being an addict easier creates more drug addicts. Therefore with more drug addicts, property crime increases.
OK, but a line of causation has been established between drug addiction and property offences. You haven't even suggested a credible line of causation for Democratic policy and homelessness.
 
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Ag3ma

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College does not nearly have enough hands-on learning, even computer classes had papers to write vs doing actual IT stuff via labs. I can tell via new hires that have gone to college recently that they aren't actually learning anything hands-on because they actually can't do the work and you have to teach them. Hence, college being rather pointless.
Dude, this has never been what university has been about. Thirty years ago I knew some mechanics who would always note that an engineer fresh out of college had no idea how to connect this pipe to that or whatever. They don't, because that's not what degrees are for. People are wasting their time getting a degree if they just want to plug in pci cards and install operating systems, because that isn't graduate level work.

What you're calling for are sub-degree vocational qualifications... and these are fine for people who do technical work that's below graduate level.
 
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tstorm823

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What you're calling for are sub-degree vocational qualifications... and these are fine for people who do technical work that's below graduate level.
You're not wrong here, but I'd have trouble naming what qualifications I would expect from degreed people generically beyond just showing up for things. Which is important, but hardly requires a degree to do.
 

Phoenixmgs

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So his administration was "do as I say, not as I do", and?
You're mad that Donald Trump was called a racist. I'm mad that his travel restrictions were shit. We are not the same. (The racist part was that non-Chinese people weren't banned from entering the US from China, if you were curious)
Is the sticking point the school closures or the specific timeframe of 18 months?

Why do you lie about obvious things? GOP 65+ was at 80%
If you ask 100 people if Trump was pro or anti mask, how do you think that survey is end up? He was obviously anti-mask and dems have to have the opposite stance because of Trump Derangement Syndrome.

I'm mad that our level of discussion over such things is so bad because we can't actually talk about anything. I don't care if it's someone calling Trump racist for no reason and any other politician doing the same thing. My point had nothing to do with the details of the travel restrictions, it has to do with them being called racist for no reason. Non-Chinese in China are most likely trying to get back to them home countries and Chinese people in China are not doing that. The travel restrictions happened too late anyway.

I understand closing schools at the start of the pandemic (lots of unknowns but still lots of knowns that people intentionally ignored too) and keeping them closed for the rest of the 19-20 year because Summer was right around the corner. Anyone keeping schools closed in the Fall of 2020 and beyond was ridiculous. The science was done on schools by Fall 2020 and that's why basically every country kept them open because they actually paid attention to the studies and actual science. Blue states and cities took the fucking longest to reopen schools like California and IIRC Chicago didn't open schools until Fall 2021. Even when schools were open in many places, they were testing kids for no reason, kids had to wear masks even fucking outside and playing sports, schools would intermittently shutdown, etc.

I answered your question correctly. IIRC, the vaccine was 1st available to old people, probably any age vulnerable with certain things, and first-responder type people. I know generally the rollout was based on age in the US. Funny how the US didn't use the same logic prior to that, protect the vulnerable, not literally everyone.

OK, but a line of causation has been established between drug addiction and property offences. You haven't even suggested a credible line of causation for Democratic policy and homelessness.
It's in the video...

Dude, this has never been what university has been about. Thirty years ago I knew some mechanics who would always note that an engineer fresh out of college had no idea how to connect this pipe to that or whatever. They don't, because that's not what degrees are for. People are wasting their time getting a degree if they just want to plug in pci cards and install operating systems, because that isn't graduate level work.

What you're calling for are sub-degree vocational qualifications... and these are fine for people who do technical work that's below graduate level.
Companies make degrees requirements to get jobs you don't need degrees for. Why the fuck do you think every kid is told to go to college in America?
 

TheMysteriousGX

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If you ask 100 people if Trump was pro or anti mask, how do you think that survey is end up? He was obviously anti-mask and dems have to have the opposite stance because of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
The federal government mandated masks. I don't give a donkey's tits what Trump's personal feelings were
I'm mad that our level of discussion over such things is so bad because we can't actually talk about anything. I don't care if it's someone calling Trump racist for no reason and any other politician doing the same thing. My point had nothing to do with the details of the travel restrictions, it has to do with them being called racist for no reason. Non-Chinese in China are most likely trying to get back to them home countries and Chinese people in China are not doing that. The travel restrictions happened too late anyway.
You don't care that someone called trump a racist for no reason but it has to do with Trump being called racist for no reason? Incoherent. Our embassy could've put our guys up for a couple weeks in an apartment or something while we organized effective, quarantined flights. We didn't, and we flubbed the tracking when they got back
I understand closing schools at the start of the pandemic (lots of unknowns but still lots of knowns that people intentionally ignored too) and keeping them closed for the rest of the 19-20 year because Summer was right around the corner. Anyone keeping schools closed in the Fall of 2020 and beyond was ridiculous. The science was done on schools by Fall 2020 and that's why basically every country kept them open because they actually paid attention to the studies and actual science. Blue states and cities took the fucking longest to reopen schools like California and IIRC Chicago didn't open schools until Fall 2021. Even when schools were open in many places, they were testing kids for no reason, kids had to wear masks even fucking outside and playing sports, schools would intermittently shutdown, etc.
My local school was "intermittently shut down" because the staff kept getting covid, you absolute plonker.
I answered your question correctly. IIRC, the vaccine was 1st available to old people, probably any age vulnerable with certain things, and first-responder type people. I know generally the rollout was based on age in the US. Funny how the US didn't use the same logic prior to that, protect the vulnerable, not literally everyone.
By doing what, not really locking down? But hey, glad you got to deflect from all the 50 year old republicans who would touch Trump's lightspeed vaccine like their life depended on it. Which so very many of them did.
 

Ag3ma

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Companies make degrees requirements to get jobs you don't need degrees for. Why the fuck do you think every kid is told to go to college in America?
Indeed they do. There are perhaps two reasons for this.

1) Partly, as a selection criteria, because they can. They can also just drop the requirement as they need and want.

2) It's useful to think about what companies want. To an extent, they accept "drones" - people who just do what's required of them. But they are interested in people with talent, ambition, professional attitude, independence, initiative, contacts, etc. You can stick this sort of person in a sort of "drone" job, and some of them will take that job and turn it into something more interesting, try to do it better, problem-solve, look for improvements, seek development opportunities. In theory at least, having a degree helps people do that, because the skills and attitudes to do so are part of the general degree "toolkit".

And sure, a load of people go to university, tick the right boxes to get a piece of paper with their name and grade on, and leave every bit as much a drone. But like I said, it's up to every individual student to make something of their own learning: you can take a horse to water...
 

Phoenixmgs

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I have less than zero interest in watching some NYT guy for quarter of an hour. If you think you have a line of causation, put forward your argument.
He's not an NYT guy and what does it matter...? If you don't wanna see the evidence, that's on you. It shows you how the democrats say they are for affordable housing but do nothing but put forth policies to make housing more expensive. Also, guess what state has taxes the benefit the rich the most? Washington, that is completely run by democrats. These are places where republicans have no power and democrats have complete control. Yet they say they want to tax the rich or affordable housing, it's all lies.

The federal government mandated masks. I don't give a donkey's tits what Trump's personal feelings were
You don't care that someone called trump a racist for no reason but it has to do with Trump being called racist for no reason? Incoherent. Our embassy could've put our guys up for a couple weeks in an apartment or something while we organized effective, quarantined flights. We didn't, and we flubbed the tracking when they got back
My local school was "intermittently shut down" because the staff kept getting covid, you absolute plonker.
By doing what, not really locking down? But hey, glad you got to deflect from all the 50 year old republicans who would touch Trump's lightspeed vaccine like their life depended on it. Which so very many of them did.
The federal government didn't mandate masks, governors were mainly in charge. For example, Florida made it so no city/county in Florida can mandate masks.

It's not about just Trump being called racist, you do realize I don't like Trump at all right? It's about how every national conversation devolves into so and so is racist or fascist or communist or whatever vs actually discussing the issue, it's all grade school level ad hominem attacks and nothing else. That's the problem.

How much of that shutdown was because of people have to take like 10 days or 2 weeks off (whatever the recommendation was) because of a positive test vs them just having to take off the time when they are actually sick?

Protect the vulnerable like Sweden did.

Indeed they do. There are perhaps two reasons for this.

1) Partly, as a selection criteria, because they can. They can also just drop the requirement as they need and want.

2) It's useful to think about what companies want. To an extent, they accept "drones" - people who just do what's required of them. But they are interested in people with talent, ambition, professional attitude, independence, initiative, contacts, etc. You can stick this sort of person in a sort of "drone" job, and some of them will take that job and turn it into something more interesting, try to do it better, problem-solve, look for improvements, seek development opportunities. In theory at least, having a degree helps people do that, because the skills and attitudes to do so are part of the general degree "toolkit".

And sure, a load of people go to university, tick the right boxes to get a piece of paper with their name and grade on, and leave every bit as much a drone. But like I said, it's up to every individual student to make something of their own learning: you can take a horse to water...
I'm sure a degree used to mean that a person was more ambitious or talented or smart (and likely more rich), and a degree was a somewhat decent metric of that. But when everyone is expected to get that 4-year degree and everyone basically has one, what's the point? It's not some differing factor anymore. Now, a degree just functions as a cover charge to a get into a bar to keep the riffraff out. Though, in this case, it's more about making it that much harder for those dealt a bad hand to get the same opportunity (see how you don't need AA in college admissions, getting rid of pointless college requirements will create more equality). I can understand doing 2 years to get a better foundation (and a cheap community college would be just as good for that as some expensive prestige school) for whatever career you wanna go into, but anything past that is mainly just a circle-jerk. You can see stuff like ambition or talent in people that you hire for entry level jobs, you don't need people to waste 10s of thousands of dollars trying to prove that.
 

Silvanus

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He's not an NYT guy and what does it matter...? If you don't wanna see the evidence, that's on you. It shows you how the democrats say they are for affordable housing but do nothing but put forth policies to make housing more expensive. Also, guess what state has taxes the benefit the rich the most? Washington, that is completely run by democrats. These are places where republicans have no power and democrats have complete control. Yet they say they want to tax the rich or affordable housing, it's all lies.
No: if you can't actually suggest a line of causation, and just repeat "watch this 15 minute video", that's definitely on you. If you hold a position that X has caused Y you should at least be able to explain why. And if you can't explain why, that indicates you just haven't put much thought into it.
 
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BrawlMan

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Can we can we please get this back on topic now? Has anyone actually bother to look up new info about the shooting, the investigation, or it's victims? Because it looks like that's not the case.

More info.






 

tstorm823

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I'm sure a degree used to mean that a person was more ambitious or talented or smart (and likely more rich), and a degree was a somewhat decent metric of that.
If you go back far enough, rich was all of it. The very idea of "liberal arts" is that they are knowledge and skills for free people with free time who don't have to labor. The skills one learns in general higher education aren't useless, but they are only useful to those who already otherwise have an elevated position in which to use them. Like, presentation skills are useless without an audience, foreign languages are nothing if you're trapped in your homeland, literature is fun but it isn't a career. These are skills designed for people who would, by circumstances of birth, be destined to travel the world, appear before audiences, and discuss the classics with their peers.

An education in things you are going to do is undoubtedly helpful and worthwhile and I discourage nobody from learning, but the idea of an education in something inherently generating demand for you in the career of your choice is historically relatively recent, and more often then not puts the cart before the horse, and millions are learning the hard way that correlation isn't causation. Degreed people being disproportionately wealthy and successful is not necessarily nor likely caused by the degree.
 

Trunkage

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If you go back far enough, rich was all of it. The very idea of "liberal arts" is that they are knowledge and skills for free people with free time who don't have to labor. The skills one learns in general higher education aren't useless, but they are only useful to those who already otherwise have an elevated position in which to use them. Like, presentation skills are useless without an audience, foreign languages are nothing if you're trapped in your homeland, literature is fun but it isn't a career. These are skills designed for people who would, by circumstances of birth, be destined to travel the world, appear before audiences, and discuss the classics with their peers.

An education in things you are going to do is undoubtedly helpful and worthwhile and I discourage nobody from learning, but the idea of an education in something inherently generating demand for you in the career of your choice is historically relatively recent, and more often then not puts the cart before the horse, and millions are learning the hard way that correlation isn't causation. Degreed people being disproportionately wealthy and successful is not necessarily nor likely caused by the degree.
I would point out that what you are talking about is just what our version of Capitalism values as opposed to what society deems valuable
 

tstorm823

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I would point out that what you are talking about is just what our version of Capitalism values as opposed to what society deems valuable
Could you rephrase that? I'm not sure I follow what you are suggesting.
 

Ag3ma

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I'm sure a degree used to mean that a person was more ambitious or talented or smart (and likely more rich), and a degree was a somewhat decent metric of that.
Sort of. A degree was basically the main entry route to a middle class (white collar) job. It certainly represented strongly social class, or class aspiration - which sort of encompasses ambition and being rich.

A few decades back there was perhaps greater stratification between the middle and working classes. The middle classes were back then much smaller as a proportion of the population, about 20% in the 1960s. These days, the middle classes are roughly 50% of the population. So as the middle class have expanded, so have the number of people getting degrees also expanded. However, there's also more of a blurred boundary between middle and working class jobs, thus jobs for which degrees are probably excessive.

The very idea of "liberal arts" is that they are knowledge and skills for free people with free time who don't have to labor.
No.

Liberal arts is essentially non-vocational degrees. But that is definitely not the same thing as claiming that people who did them did not need to work. For instance, natural sciences degrees fall under liberal arts, and you're not usefully telling anyone that they weren't largely done by people working as scientists. Liberal arts also represents a sort of philosophy or theory of education, which to some extent exists (or is supposed to exist) in nearly all Western degrees, including the vocational ones.
 

tstorm823

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No.

Liberal arts is essentially non-vocational degrees. But that is definitely not the same thing as claiming that people who did them did not need to work. For instance, natural sciences degrees fall under liberal arts, and you're not usefully telling anyone that they weren't largely done by people working as scientists. Liberal arts also represents a sort of philosophy or theory of education, which to some extent exists (or is supposed to exist) in nearly all Western degrees, including the vocational ones.
Yes.

I'm explaining where the name "liberal arts" actually comes from.
"late 14c., translating Latin artes liberales; the name for the seven attainments directed to intellectual enlargement, rather than immediate practical purpose, and thus deemed worthy of a free man (liberal in this sense is opposed to servile or mechanical)."

You're right on a couple points. Natural sciences fall under liberal arts, but what you're missing is that in the 14th century, scientists were all in the aristocracy. The middle class didn't exist, the lower class weren't scientists, and learning science was not a pathway between the classes (except maybe if the Church was involved). Natural sciences weren't something a person studied to elevate their position in society, it is something that people already in elevated positions used their time and talent on.

The other thing you're right about is that liberal arts represents a philosophy of education that permeates all fields at all levels, and that's kind of the problem. The foundation of the education we are giving to youth is "how to be a well-rounded and intellectual wealthy person", and then telling people that more education will lead to more wealth. Can you not appreciate the frustration of the those who spent decades of their life force-fed the hobbies of the rich from centuries ago, sometimes taking out massive loans to support this lifestyle, under the promise of eventual wealth that likely never actually comes? I look at a city like Baltimore where there are like a dozen high schools with not a single student proficient in math. I know this isn't truly a simple issue: poverty, family, physical health, and a bunch of other factors all intersect in compounding ways. But that city and state can pump as much money and try as many different tactics as they want, the educational results rarely improve even a little because of rampant absenteeism, and I can't help but think that maybe people are smarter than the world gives them credit for. Maybe these youth aren't predestined to fail in school from generational disadvantages, maybe they just don't care because they know they're being given an education that does not apply to their lives. We spend so much time on things like classical music and interpreting fiction, we may as well be teaching about yachting and caviar to people who can't afford luxuries and expect to work in a warehouse as soon as the state allows them to.