"Medicine" in America

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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rednose1 said:
As to the whole "just pay it in taxes" issue, I'm in the branch of people who would rather reap the benefits of my actions.
Maybe you should perform surgeries yourself then. Wouldn't want to reap the benefits of someone else's actions. :p

The reality, of course, is that you're never going to pay for just yourself under any system or just your actions. So while it's nice to talk about yourself like you're some sort of island, it will never be the case.

If you care about your health, you should be rewarded with better rates.
There's actually nothing stopping tax incentives for just that, so if that's your only issue....

Granted, some people have factors outside their control, but the prevalence of fast food in todays culture scares me.
It should, but I'd note reliance on fast food largely stems from an impoverished nation. People usually don't choose the circumstances of their own birth, and we have millions of families who rely on fast food as a staple due to cost issues. It's very libertarian to be callous and say "you could choose to eat better," but the fact remains we don't have a system sufficient to make healty eating a viable choice compared to the "dollar menu."

What you end up with is a one-choice system, and you're punishing people for making that choice wrong without any viable alternative.

Maybe "work harder," but that implies a nation where you can't work 40 hours a week and still qualify for food stamps because you're below the poverty level.

A bunch of people do choose to eat shit. A ton more choose, basically, to eat.

ninjaRiv said:
It baffles me, it really does. Sick and dying people can't get the surgery and medicine they need to save their lives because they're poor. It's crazy that a "civilised" country does this, isn't it? And there are people in America who fight for this, for a system where people die of treatable illnesses. I'm not saying anywhere's perfect but, shit... This could really do with being fixed. It should be paid for through taxes. There should be tighter restrictions on suing hospitals. People who ***** and moan about taxes that save lives, man. They're the same people who like how much is spent on the army, as far as I can tell.
Rand Paul's solution is elegant. "Shop around."

Obviously, the free market solves everything. I mean, why can't heart surgery work just like contact lenses?

The Unworthy Gentleman said:
Regardless, American refusal to pay more taxes for a system that only benefits them and other people is ridiculous. The fact "I don't want to pay for someone else's injuries" is used as an argument against it just shows how selfish the right wing is.
I think you're being unfair to the right wing. Selfish is the new black, my friend. We're a borderline sociopoathic nation, and it's not tied to one party.

We're also a nation of hypocrites, as selfish people will deny aid for others and demand it for themselves. Just look at the number of Senators who denied aid to Hurricane Sandy victims because "fiscal responsibility" who have turned around and begged for aid in their own states. Granted, there's a tendency towards these being red states, but it's not universal.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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King Kazma said:
Yes you silly Americans. No Universal Healthcare cause its communist. Every-other 1st world country has it, or something akin to it. I'll just bask in the Canadian greatness.

Really, we just want to make the rich richer. And if a few million people need to die....

No, I can't finish that statement, even in jest. Bad Amaranth!
 

Fdzzaigl

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Mar 31, 2010
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It's an example of practices that we find completely incomprehensible in Europe and many other parts of the world.

Honestly, I'll leave it at that as well. I've had so many unproductive discussions with Americans (not all of them, but many) over this issue that I'd rather go bang my head against a wall than have another one.
 

WanderingFool

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Daystar Clarion said:
If many Americans weren't so damn gung ho about paying less taxes, then it wouldn't be an issue.

It's 2013 and they still have no universal healthcare. It boggles the mind that a first world country lacks such a system.

Here's a thought.

You know that obscenely huge military they have? You know, the big one.

Take like 5% of that budget, and there's your universal healthcare. No extra taxes, just the money redistributed elsewhere.

You should probably look after the people in your own country before making something to kill the populace of another.
God... if only it were that simple... but of course, "we" care more about spreading freedom and keeping us safe, than actually taking care of ourselves...
 

Thaluikhain

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Zachary Amaranth said:
thaluikhain said:
Hell, you don't even need to do that. Take that 5% of the military budget, use to expand the military medical system, and have them also treat civilians.

Then you don't even have to officially make military cutbacks, you're just moving their money around.
But to what end? Our military is obscene to begin with. The reason we want lower taxes (Not the real reason, which is we hate paying for stuff) is fiscal responsibility, and it's the argument against health care as well (which is a laugh), so why would we go out of our way to protect military spending levels?
Because you'll be denounced as a commie-nazi if you don't prioritise things to kill brown people.

Certainly, what should be done is a radical rethink, but fudging things a little might be possible.
 

RicoADF

Welcome back Commander
Jun 2, 2009
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cthulhuspawn82 said:
The relevant question is this, why don't you pay for your healthcare out of your own pocket. You don't because you cant afford it. In America at least, the cost of healthcare is so high that nobody can afford to pay it. Nobody can afford to spend $2000 to sleep in a hospital bed for one night.

This is why universal healthcare wont work, at least for America. How is the government supposed to use our money to pay for something we cant afford? If their isn't enough money in our pockets to pay the bill then how can the government, which gets all of its money from our pockets, afford to pay the bill?
That's the thing, because it's run by private and not government they charge more because they can. If the government had a universal health care and run hospitals etc themselves then like every civilized nation on earth you'd have a far better system, there'd be the public for everyone and the private would have to price themselves to a decent level to compete, then offer a better service ontop. Like any business, it's about competition.

Captcha: capital gain - That's how it works captcha
 

Tono Makt

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Mar 24, 2012
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Blood Brain Barrier said:
Xdeser2 said:
Honestly, I find the concept of Medicine and medical attention being a "Business" fucking abhorrent. You have to be a real Asshole to charge someone a ridiculous amount of money after saving their life.
Why? It is a business. No different whatsoever from lawyer, CEO or teacher.

Besides, you can imagine what's going through those doctors heads: "You deserve this. You went through 6 years of school so you could earn shitloads. You were reading books when the rest of your highschool class was getting drunk and laid. You're smarter than everyone else... etc etc"
This is quite true. Millions of Americans are unable to get the health treatment they need because they can't afford health care when they need it, and it may not be hyperbole to say that there could be a million Americans in prison because they couldn't afford competent legal aid when they needed it.

Personally, I believe both of those examples stem from a part of American culture that does not see a difference between "greed" and "ambition" in their own actions. They are quite capable of seeing greed in the actions of others, but not in their own. I might even go a bit deeper into it and say that it is a part of American culture which does not allow for introspection, a part which does not allow for one to say "Am I doing something wrong?". It is a part of American culture that assumes that they are Just, ergo everything they do is Just. Even when they call the same thing done by someone else to be Unjust.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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thaluikhain said:
Because you'll be denounced as a commie-nazi if you don't prioritise things to kill brown people.

Certainly, what should be done is a radical rethink, but fudging things a little might be possible.
I suppose I don't consider that angle because I'm considered a commie-nazi no matter what I do.

And I'm not joking. Even before Glenn Beck and company started comparing everything the liberals do to Hitler, I was getting called a Nazi by my family for thinking that people should have a right to basic care.

Does that make me a Nazi hipster?

"I was being denounced as a genocidal bastard BEFORE it was cool."
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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kiri2tsubasa said:
Honestly, why should I pay for other peoples hospital visits? No really why should I? I have no desire or want to do that.
Do you pay taxes?

Congratulations! You're already paying for other people's roads, police, and mail.

Welcome to the collective, comrade!

...Seriously, I don't really get this argument if you are in any way connected to society. Even the internet.
 

Phasmal

Sailor Jupiter Woman
Jun 10, 2011
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I'm not going to even pretend to understand the American Healthcare system.
All I know is I'd be pretty damn dead without the NHS.

Seriously though I would have thought they wouldn't charge you for an ambulance. But like I said, I don't know how it works over there.
 

Da Orky Man

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Apr 24, 2011
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cthulhuspawn82 said:
shootthebandit said:
cthulhuspawn82 said:
So the problem isn't insurance companies a lack of a health care system. The problem is that those guys in the Ambulance, the doctors that treated you, and the hospital administrators, are all a bunch of greedy assholes. If the government wants to help us it should bring the hammer down on all the doctors and Ambulance drivers. Force them to do their job for a set price or go out of business.
Or the government step in and pay everyones healthcare with tax payers money. Sure you pay more tax but you know that when you go to hospital you dont have to pay a penny to get healthcare
The relevant question is this, why don't you pay for your healthcare out of your own pocket. You don't because you cant afford it. In America at least, the cost of healthcare is so high that nobody can afford to pay it. Nobody can afford to spend $2000 to sleep in a hospital bed for one night.

This is why universal healthcare wont work, at least for America. How is the government supposed to use our money to pay for something we cant afford? If their isn't enough money in our pockets to pay the bill then how can the government, which gets all of its money from our pockets, afford to pay the bill?
By cutting out insurance companies, then there's a whole industry you no longer need to pay. That ought to bring costs down a fair bit. However, since medical insurance is quite a big thing in the US, a better method than the UK's single-payer may be the model used by the Netherlands, where insurance companies are obligated to provide a certain amount of care, including prescriptions and all core services, for a certain premium, which it is illegal to alter or to turn anyone down for. This is in addition to mandatory primary and curative care, such as a family doctor/hospital costs/clinics.
 

Tono Makt

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kiri2tsubasa said:
Honestly, why should I pay for other peoples hospital visits? No really why should I? I have no desire or want to do that.
It's generally the same reason as for why the police, fire department and education system paid for via public dollars; we all benefit from a healthier population, and a population in which they can get health care when they need it. Even if we, personally, do not need this service on a (reasonably) predictable basis, we all benefit from having it available.

For example: You go to a public place with a large number of strangers around and where people are working. (a game store, a computer store, a movie, a concert, a sporting event, a place of worship, public transport, a bank, to a mall, etc.) If the people who are there are healthy, you are unlikely to become ill. If the people who are supposed to be there (mall security, investment advisers, bus drivers, bus riders, etc.) are able to get proper medical care when they are ill, they are less likely to be ill when you are there. This means that you are less likely to get ill and less likely to require medical attention for illness. This is a large reason why the seasonal flu shots are either free or practically free. (Many places will charge an administrative fee; Macomb county in Michigan has a $15 charge,for example. Other places it can cost over $30.) In Ontario we get it for free because it decreased the amount of flu patients coming into our medical system substantially (a reduction of 60% in cases of the flu, and a reduction of costs of treading the remaining patients by 50%), so having this sort of free health care benefits everyone. I would imagine that similar stats can be found across the world where the flu vaccine is available, and the wider the spread of the vaccine the greater the benefit to the society.

Another example: A bus driver becomes infirm and cannot work anymore, due to a medical condition which is treatable with surgery but is prohibitively expensive for the driver. This necessitates a new driver be hired and trained, which costs the bus company a large amount of resources to hire and train the new driver, to cover the shifts of the driver who is no longer working and to ensure that schedules are met during the training period of the new driver. This increases the cost to the rider, increases the amount of traffic on the roads (as the new driver is not as competent as the previous driver, the new driver will be slower, block more traffic during their route, etc.), increases the amount of fuel consumption which helps to drive up demand for fuel. This may look like a minor cost in a single area, but take that same general situation and apply it to other industries. Bank tellers, store cashiers, cameramen, network administrators, nurse receptionists, truck drivers, farm workers, police officers, teachers, construction workers, business executives, etc.

Every business is hurt by having people leave due to illness and infirmities. And every business passes that hurt along to their customers. You pay a bit more for food because shipping companies charge more to accommodate for the cost of training new drivers. You wait longer at the bank to account for a new teller learning the ropes. You spend more time in traffic because of new drivers on the road slowing traffic down as they learn their new routes. Less ad space is purchased by a company because a new Executive is taking over and there isn't a new campaign yet. Your street is full of potholes for an additional month because the new construction workers are on a learning curve and aren't able to work to the same efficiency as the previous ones. Your strawberries only last 3 days in the fridge instead of 6 because it takes more time to get them from the field to your table as new workers throughout the supply chain adjust to their new position. Etc.


We all benefit from having a healthy society. The benefits may be modest (having the luxury of buying a pound of strawberries for the week, instead of having to get a half pound on Monday and another half pound on Wednesday or Thursday) or difficult to properly attribute, but they are there.
 

Bluestorm83

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Jun 20, 2011
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shootthebandit said:
An ambulance is not a fucking taxi and healthcare is not a money making enterprise. If you lived in a civilised country your healthcare would be paid for in taxes and government funding
Mmmm, actually, Healthcare IS a Money Making Enterprise. Why would I devote my life to researching medicine if I'm not going to make a living at it? Taxing everyone to give everyone healthcare only assures one outcome: someone can sit on their ass and never try, and still be taken care of, while those of us who will get off the couch and put our hands to the necessary labors now have to carry the aforementioned dead weight. And "government funding" is a bullshit term, since the government doesn't earn their keep, they just charge EXORBITANT fees for their middling, ineffectual services.
 

Macgyvercas

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Feb 19, 2009
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Daystar Clarion said:
If many Americans weren't so damn gung ho about paying less taxes, then it wouldn't be an issue.

It's 2013 and they still have no universal healthcare. It boggles the mind that a first world country lacks such a system.

Here's a thought.

You know that obscenely huge military they have? You know, the big one.

Take like 5% of that budget, and there's your universal healthcare. No extra taxes, just the money redistributed elsewhere.

You should probably look after the people in your own country before making something to kill the populace of another.
Daystar, we spend more on defense than the next 26 countries on the list combined, 24 of which are allies. We could cut the defense budget in half and be fine.

Also, according to some people I went to school with, apparently believing that we should focus on healthcare and education rather than socking all spare money into the military makes me a filthy liberal. If so...fucking guilty as charged.
 

GundamSentinel

The leading man, who else?
Aug 23, 2009
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Da Orky Man said:
By cutting out insurance companies, then there's a whole industry you no longer need to pay. That ought to bring costs down a fair bit. However, since medical insurance is quite a big thing in the US, a better method than the UK's single-payer may be the model used by the Netherlands, where insurance companies are obligated to provide a certain amount of care, including prescriptions and all core services, for a certain premium, which it is illegal to alter or to turn anyone down for. This is in addition to mandatory primary and curative care, such as a family doctor/hospital costs/clinics.
This hits basically all that's wrong with the American insurance system:
- refusal to insure certain people based on their medical history
- not being obligated to give a base level of medical care
- being allowed to ask ludicrous amounts of money for insurances
- being allowed to arbitrarily refuse their customers payment

Fixing that would make the American system function a lot better.
 

Thaluikhain

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Does that make me a Nazi hipster?

"I was being denounced as a genocidal bastard BEFORE it was cool."
I think you need to try to murder at least one ethnicity, and then if anyone complains, get defensive and so you were only doing it ironically, so you are above criticism.
 

Waaghpowa

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Apr 13, 2010
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Situation that happened to my dad recently.

My dad tripped and fell, hitting his head pretty hard. He went to the doctor who ordered 2 head CT scans to make sure everything was ok. He was fine.

We live in Canada, cost us nothing. Price in the US would be ~15,000 each.

Sure, we pay more taxes, but at least, when the time comes, we don't take a massive $30,000 hit to make sure we're healthy. We would not been able to afford those scans otherwise. So by paying a little extra in taxes, we ensured that someone in the family didn't die of accidental head injury or leave us financially destitute.
 

shootthebandit

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Bluestorm83 said:
shootthebandit said:
An ambulance is not a fucking taxi and healthcare is not a money making enterprise. If you lived in a civilised country your healthcare would be paid for in taxes and government funding
Mmmm, actually, Healthcare IS a Money Making Enterprise. Why would I devote my life to researching medicine if I'm not going to make a living at it? Taxing everyone to give everyone healthcare only assures one outcome: someone can sit on their ass and never try, and still be taken care of, while those of us who will get off the couch and put our hands to the necessary labors now have to carry the aforementioned dead weight. And "government funding" is a bullshit term, since the government doesn't earn their keep, they just charge EXORBITANT fees for their middling, ineffectual services.
Yes that does happen but just because you dont work and dont pay tax does that mean you shouldnt be allowed life saving treatment? If you live in a country which promotes valuing someones life less than yours (no matter who they are) then im glad i dont live in such a fucked up country. Sure there are people who sponge of our system but its a lot less than what our right-wing sensationalist media makes it out to be and its still better than a system where the rich are allowed to live and the poor arent *cough*elysium *cough*

Medicine is NOT a money making excercise because you cannot put a value on a human life. Sure you could invent a cure for cancer and sell it to the highest bidder for a huge profit or you could do the RIGHT thing and save thousands of lifes and still make a small fortune

Also when you live in a country where medicine is privitised R&D ends up going into treatments for baldness and erectile disfunction because you know thats what sells