Men allowed into the women's changing area. Bathroom debate.

Gengisgame

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or I think we just need to admit that we discriminate, so either we don't discriminate at all or just accept that we will discriminate.

Just watched some Bill Maher and he was talking about what he calls boutique issues and considered the trans bathroom issue one of them, he said that he thinks people should be able to pee wherever they want but that it needs to be put on hold until the election is over.

This got me thinking about if that's the case then there should be no reason to have separate changing rooms.

The idea behind separate changing rooms is to make people comfortable and avoid any potential problems.

We see this as an acceptable level of discrimination, we know that most men won't cause problems but we disallow them because it makes women more comfortable and it drastically reduces the opportunity for men who will cause problems.

So who decided that Trans where exempt from this?
 

JoJo

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In my ideal world, there wouldn't be a need for gender segregated bathrooms. We allow gay and bisexual people to use the bathroom of their own sex, so potential attraction doesn't have to be a dealbreaker. With the attitudes of most people living today though, it wouldn't fly.

As far as I've seen, trans people are not exempt from this either. Transgender people are expected to use the bathroom of the gender they present as, as that causes minimal fuss and confusion. I mean, what do you think would happen if this dude tried to use the women's bathroom?

 

DefunctTheory

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It's extreme disingenuous to imply that changing rooms and restrooms are interchangeable terms in the 'trans debate.' Restrooms are an easy issue - By design, they sub-divide the room up and provide privacy for all inside, so having trans people enter is a non-issue.

Changing rooms (I'm assuming you're talking about the 'locker room' style, anyway, found at gyms and pools) are an entirely different beast, where most of the space is open and everyone's basically naked together.

Completely different set of issues that need to be discussed.

That being said, I'm not going to participate, at least not at the moment. Mushroom hunting time.
 

Zhukov

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Does forcing a trans person who appears female to use the male bathroom strike you as a safer, more comfortable scenario for all involved?
 

DudeistBelieve

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In the adult world, everyone has a private stall there shouldn't be an issue. It's such a foriegn notion to me that we as people can't fucking occupy the same space without something weird of sick going on.

yeah there are depraved individuals out there, but they're the minority right?

Whatever, the long short of it is so long as we got stalls this is a total non-issue for me as far as caring.

AccursedTheory said:
It's extreme disingenuous to imply that changing rooms and restrooms are interchangeable terms in the 'trans debate.' Restrooms are an easy issue - By design, they sub-divide the room up and provide privacy for all inside, so having trans people enter is a non-issue.

Changing rooms (I'm assuming you're talking about the 'locker room' style, anyway, found at gyms and pools) are an entirely different beast, where most of the space is open and everyone's basically naked together.

Completely different set of issues that need to be discussed.

That being said, I'm not going to participate, at least not at the moment. Mushroom hunting time.
Locker rooms as a concept are fucking weird to begin with.

Who the hell thought it was a good idea to let people change out in the open? Would private stalls really take up that much space?

Its one of the few things that back in high school I thought was really fucking weird. It gets weirder when you here back in the 60's they made children shower together.
 

Paragon Fury

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DudeistBelieve said:
In the adult world, everyone has a private stall there shouldn't be an issue. It's such a foriegn notion to me that we as people can't fucking occupy the same space without something weird of sick going on.

yeah there are depraved individuals out there, but they're the minority right?

Whatever, the long short of it is so long as we got stalls this is a total non-issue for me as far as caring.

AccursedTheory said:
It's extreme disingenuous to imply that changing rooms and restrooms are interchangeable terms in the 'trans debate.' Restrooms are an easy issue - By design, they sub-divide the room up and provide privacy for all inside, so having trans people enter is a non-issue.

Changing rooms (I'm assuming you're talking about the 'locker room' style, anyway, found at gyms and pools) are an entirely different beast, where most of the space is open and everyone's basically naked together.

Completely different set of issues that need to be discussed.

That being said, I'm not going to participate, at least not at the moment. Mushroom hunting time.
Locker rooms as a concept are fucking weird to begin with.

Who the hell thought it was a good idea to let people change out in the open? Would private stalls really take up that much space?

Its one of the few things that back in high school I thought was really fucking weird. It gets weirder when you here back in the 60's they made children shower together.
Yes, stalls take up a shit ton of space, cutting down on the number of people you can fit into any given area.

Fun fact; Men's restrooms have urinals because urinals increase the efficiency of a restroom by something like 40-50%, making it so that the bathroom can process and serve more people faster in the same or less space than a stalls-only bathroom. It's actually faster and more effective to have separate men's and women's facilities because it processes the greatest number of people the fastest.

Well, actually, the fastest method would be to have the two rest areas be equal with both stalls and urinals, both women are apparently 200% opposed to going to the bathroom where there is a urinal, even above the whole idea of a co-ed bathroom. As in, even at my university the female professors threaten to sue the school over the women's bathrooms having urinals in them even though they were exclusively women's use bathroom.
 

chadachada123

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Zhukov said:
Does forcing a trans person who appears female to use the male bathroom strike you as a safer, more comfortable scenario for all involved?
I never understood this argument. The vast majority of guys (at least in civilized parts) won't give a shit if a girl enters the bathroom. I've seen it happen before, and just assumed the girl's bathroom was full and she really had to go.

No one* gives a shit about that. It'd be a much bigger deal for someone that looks male to enter the girl's room, as with the picture JoJo posted, which, I admit, makes it pretty clear that bathrooms should be unspoken and used based on what the person outwardly looks like, if only to keep the peace. A transguy could definitely get the shit beat out of him by concerned-father types thinking he's just a pervert.

*Plus, there's always the small chance of a transgirl going into a men's room getting harassed/worse. Another reason to simply use the bathroom that fits your appearance.
 

DudeistBelieve

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Paragon Fury said:
DudeistBelieve said:
In the adult world, everyone has a private stall there shouldn't be an issue. It's such a foriegn notion to me that we as people can't fucking occupy the same space without something weird of sick going on.

yeah there are depraved individuals out there, but they're the minority right?

Whatever, the long short of it is so long as we got stalls this is a total non-issue for me as far as caring.

AccursedTheory said:
It's extreme disingenuous to imply that changing rooms and restrooms are interchangeable terms in the 'trans debate.' Restrooms are an easy issue - By design, they sub-divide the room up and provide privacy for all inside, so having trans people enter is a non-issue.

Changing rooms (I'm assuming you're talking about the 'locker room' style, anyway, found at gyms and pools) are an entirely different beast, where most of the space is open and everyone's basically naked together.

Completely different set of issues that need to be discussed.

That being said, I'm not going to participate, at least not at the moment. Mushroom hunting time.
Locker rooms as a concept are fucking weird to begin with.

Who the hell thought it was a good idea to let people change out in the open? Would private stalls really take up that much space?

Its one of the few things that back in high school I thought was really fucking weird. It gets weirder when you here back in the 60's they made children shower together.
Yes, stalls take up a shit ton of space, cutting down on the number of people you can fit into any given area.

Fun fact; Men's restrooms have urinals because urinals increase the efficiency of a restroom by something like 40-50%, making it so that the bathroom can process and serve more people faster in the same or less space than a stalls-only bathroom. It's actually faster and more effective to have separate men's and women's facilities because it processes the greatest number of people the fastest.

Well, actually, the fastest method would be to have the two rest areas be equal with both stalls and urinals, both women are apparently 200% opposed to going to the bathroom where there is a urinal, even above the whole idea of a co-ed bathroom. As in, even at my university the female professors threaten to sue the school over the women's bathrooms having urinals in them even though they were exclusively women's use bathroom.
Yeah but lower service capacity is a worth trade off no?

Well whatever I don't know. Maybe women perform some dark satanic rituals in their bathrooms we straight cisscum men don't know about they don't want us to find out.... that's a joke, maybe they do actually use the facility different then men. I mean guys just do their business and go, but in movies and TV (my only frame of reference ladies sorry) they're chitchatting in there, putting on make up. Maybe theres a reasonable issue beyond ZOMG MEN ARE RAPISTS that they're opposed to the idea. Which not that fear of rape isn't legitament, but I don't actually believe anyone is made safer because the stick figure on the door has a dress on it. That's security theater right there, brah.

I can only say, for me, just give me 3 walls and a stall door and I give zero fucks who I'm sharing that room with. I gots me privacy.
 

bastardofmelbourne

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DudeistBelieve said:
Locker rooms as a concept are fucking weird to begin with.

Who the hell thought it was a good idea to let people change out in the open? Would private stalls really take up that much space?

Its one of the few things that back in high school I thought was really fucking weird. It gets weirder when you here back in the 60's they made children shower together.
I am so thoroughly in agreement with you that I think I pulled a muscle.

I always got changed in the shower stalls because I was super self-conscious. If there were un-curtained showers, I would literally shower in my underpants, then go into a toilet stall and change into a dry pair.

I never took off my underpants in the locker room. I thought it was goddamn bizarre that it was acceptable to flash another guy your dong in the locker room but not anywhere else.
 

LetalisK

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bastardofmelbourne said:
DudeistBelieve said:
Locker rooms as a concept are fucking weird to begin with.

Who the hell thought it was a good idea to let people change out in the open? Would private stalls really take up that much space?

Its one of the few things that back in high school I thought was really fucking weird. It gets weirder when you here back in the 60's they made children shower together.
I am so thoroughly in agreement with you that I think I pulled a muscle.

I always got changed in the shower stalls because I was super self-conscious. If there were un-curtained showers, I would literally shower in my underpants, then go into a toilet stall and change into a dry pair.

I never took off my underpants in the locker room. I thought it was goddamn bizarre that it was acceptable to flash another guy your dong in the locker room but not anywhere else.
Why are you so uptight? Come on, all the cool kids are getting naked. Coach likes it. >.>
 

Phasmal

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Well, considering the amount of stupid comments from dudes saying they'd pretend to be trans to gain access to areas where women were changing- no. I don't think men should be allowed in women's changing areas or toilets.

You don't tend to see that sentiment from trans people, who are just kind of trying to live their lives and are not known to creep on people.

In an ideal world, where we taught people that no one is entitled to victimise others for their own pleasure, then sure. Mixed changing areas ahoy. But we don't live in that world.
 

Fractral

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DudeistBelieve said:
Locker rooms as a concept are fucking weird to begin with.

Who the hell thought it was a good idea to let people change out in the open? Would private stalls really take up that much space?

Its one of the few things that back in high school I thought was really fucking weird. It gets weirder when you here back in the 60's they made children shower together.
We were supposed to shower together at my Secondary School, all of ten years ago. It was very weird, and after the first couple of weeks nobody really showered.
The gym teacher didn't help. He wouldn't force you to strip but if he saw that you hadn't showered he'd make you go in or give you detention. That wasn't the worst thing he did- first gym lesson of first year, one of the kids stripped bare naked to go in. His response was to give the guy a merit. What sort of behavior was he trying to encourage?
And he wondered why we called him a pedophile.
 

Fat Hippo

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Huh, surprised to see so many people uncomfortable with the showering and changing in school thing. I don't ever recall things being that awkward in my school. Must be a cultural thing. Germanic people are flagrant nudists compared to most others.

As for the bathroom issue: personally, I wouldn't give a shit if bathrooms are shared, because I honestly don't care who's peeking on my willy. Man, woman, gay, straight, whatever. I'm not going to bother anyone with it without solicitation, but if you go for a look, I'm not bothered. But again: flagrant nudist. I do however understand that many women don't want to share bathrooms with men, because unfortunately, some men are pervy assholes who don't know how to be respectful, and people have a right to their privacy if they want it. I guess I'm probably applying a double standard here, but women do generally feel more vulnerable in a sexual sense, and I don't think it's sexist to say that.

(EDIT: And of course it's only fair if not all men want to be peeked on by the opposite sex either, they should have the right to that as well.)

Where I guess the trans issue becomes a bit complicated is when someone who's trans is still kind of recognizably not the gender they associate with or want to present themselves as? So if a person who's born as a guy but wants to be a woman, yet can still be recognized as a man, tries to use the woman's bathroom, is that a violation of women's privacy? Is it only an issue if the trans is "discovered" so to speak? Honestly, I've got no fucking clue.
 

Thaluikhain

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Eh, this is a non-issue. It's only important because there are some people that haven't quite grasped that they can't wish trans people away.

Gender segregation is done for reasons of safety. Trans people don't make others unsafe by existing, but are put in danger if their identities aren't recognised.
 

Saelune

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Fat_Hippo said:
Huh, surprised to see so many people uncomfortable with the showering and changing in school thing. I don't ever recall things being that awkward in my school. Must be a cultural thing. Germanic people are flagrant nudists compared to most others.

As for the bathroom issue: personally, I wouldn't give a shit if bathrooms are shared, because I honestly don't care who's peeking on my willy. Man, woman, gay, straight, whatever. I'm not going to bother anyone with it without solicitation, but if you go for a look, I'm not bothered. But again: flagrant nudist. I do however understand that many women don't want to share bathrooms with men, because unfortunately, some men are pervy assholes who don't know how to be respectful, and people have a right to their privacy if they want it. I guess I'm probably applying a double standard here, but women do generally feel more vulnerable in a sexual sense, and I don't think it's sexist to say that.

(EDIT: And of course it's only fair if not all men want to be peeked on by the opposite sex either, they should have the right to that as well.)

Where I guess the trans issue becomes a bit complicated is when someone who's trans is still kind of recognizably not the gender they associate with or want to present themselves as? So if a person who's born as a guy but wants to be a woman, yet can still be recognized as a man, tries to use the woman's bathroom, is that a violation of women's privacy? Is it only an issue if the trans is "discovered" so to speak? Honestly, I've got no fucking clue.
Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean its not there. You probably did not see people uncomfortable with it, because we were all hiding. I doubt anyone at my school noticed my reluctance to change publicly, or when I came to school pre-dressed for gym, atleast until I stopped caring and just wore jeans.

I still did the stuff too...but I guess what I wear is more important since I almost "failed' Gym, and only passed because I guess they didn't want to hold me back for something so trivial.

A bit more on topic...a lot of this wouldn't be a problem if we didn't have to be afraid in the bathroom. That's really what it comes down to, we're vulnerable in the bathroom. There is the phrase "Caught with your pants down" afterall. Women don't want to be assaulted, trans people don't want to be assaulted, parents don't want their kids to be assaulted.

I mean, people who assault people will do it regardless, so why punish those of us who just want to pee in peace? Maybe if we got it into people's heads to not be awful people, we would have less problems in the world.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Gengisgame said:
or I think we just need to admit that we discriminate, so either we don't discriminate at all or just accept that we will discriminate.
Well considering that this kind of discrimination is a fundamental root to a huge number of society's issues, the answer is to stop discriminating. We've made racial discrimination in public accommodations(like bathrooms and changing rooms), employment, and housing access. We also didn't allow homophobic discrimination dictate access to bathrooms and changing rooms, which there was a big push for at the height of the AIDS scare in the 1980s. So codifying transphobic discrimination into law, because someone might misuse it, legally oppressing a marginalized group, because of a minority of idiots who aren't even protected by transgender protections... That's a knee-jerk reaction based on something that only a few right-wing activists made a problem within the last few years. Mind you trans people have been using the appropriate bathroom to our gender identities for decades already, there are now 23 states with protections for trans people to use the bathrooms of our gender identity... The result? Basically no problems have arisen from these inclusive policies, the only stories I've seen hit the news are jackasses attempting to abuse the policies, as a political statement, and they always get called on it, not being given the accommodation for trans people.

Gengisgame said:
Just watched some Bill Maher and he was talking about what he calls boutique issues and considered the trans bathroom issue one of them, he said that he thinks people should be able to pee wherever they want but that it needs to be put on hold until the election is over.
First: Bill Maher has consistently been a transphobic dick, pulling awful transphobic jokes at the drop of a hat, for his entire career. This man has literally no space to speak on trans issues, because no matter what he says, he's not an ally, hes part of the problem where transphobia is concerned. He literally used a transphobic stereotype in the segment you're talking about. This is not someone who gets to dictate to trans people, because he's not trans, and he's sure as hell not a trans ally either.

Second: An issue that affects an estimated 1.4 million people in the US alone, that's not a "boutique issue". That's beside the fact that trans people are always being told to wait on getting basic human rights. Our issues have been used as a throw away card, to make gay rights look like a "compromise" for decades by groups like the Human Rights campaign. We're always expected to "wait just a little bit longer" to have our issues addressed, which isn't something trans activists willing to put up with any longer. That's besides the fact that there's always another election happen, where concern trolling "liberals" like Bill Maher are asking us to wait some more on us pursuing basic equality in our home lands, to have the right not to be treated like a pariah in our own home land that preaches the equality of all.

That's beside the fact that the reason trans rights became an issue to the general public in the first place, is because the far-right social conservatives in the GOP made it an issue. Christian hate groups like the Family Research Council are throwing huge amount of money into spreading misinformation about trans people, demonizing us in the general public, while mudding the waters about how us being protected is going to hurt "helpless women and girls". Which is sickeningly patronizing and sexist, besides the fact that it's an outright lie with no evidence to back up it's accuracy, but plenty to contradict it. That's not to mention what they're doing in the background, trying to throw up legal road blocks to make transition nearly impossible for trans people, while encouraging destructive so called "conversion therapy". Their literal goal is to make transition and public life impossible for trans people. The cherry on top: This is all because they lost on same-sex marriage, so they're focusing on a more socially vulnerable group, whose going to see a record number of murders amongst us this year, while they actively press for government policies that will drive many of us to suicide.

Gengisgame said:
This got me thinking about if that's the case then there should be no reason to have separate changing rooms.

The idea behind separate changing rooms is to make people comfortable and avoid any potential problems.
Changing rooms... Well lets see changing rooms in department stores and the like are fully enclosed and not actually segregated by gender, they're segregated by department. Restrooms already have private stalls, but they've actually found that universal restrooms with fully enclosed urinal and toilet stalls, with common hand washing areas, are much more efficient. While others have pointed out locker rooms, which have open showers and dressing areas aren't ideal for anyone... Which is the sort of thing trans people avoid like the plague anyways. The only reason those locker rooms are put up with, is because it's literally the only way it's commonly done and most people just grin and bare it, without demanding actual privacy accommodations.

Most of this still does nothing to make anyone comfortable, in fact most of it's just an artifact left over from the industrial revolution, when women joined public life and the working force.

Gengisgame said:
We see this as an acceptable level of discrimination, we know that most men won't cause problems but we disallow them because it makes women more comfortable and it drastically reduces the opportunity for men who will cause problems.
Who is we? A lot of people have a serious issues with the current gender segregated system, quite a few people point out that isolating either gender, by gender, actually increases victimization in assaults and sexual assaults. That's simply because there is less chance anyone will be able to come to your aid. Also it's a deeply sexist idea that men are the only ones who cause issues in these situations. Having been sexually harassed and touched inappropriately by lesbian women in women's restrooms... Yeah gender segregation doesn't actually do anything useful, it certainly doesn't stop misbehavior in gender segregated spaces, it doesn't even stop people of one gender invading the other gender's space to misbehave... It actually makes help harder to get.

Also this needs to be pointed out: Inclusive laws that protect access for trans people to appropriate restrooms does not protect men who lie to gain access to women's spaces. It also doesn't make any illegal behavior in these gender segregates spaces any less illegal. The only thing that policies which intentionally exclude trans people do, is harm trans people. Period. That is all of what this entire debate is, weather, or not it's okay to directly target and exclude trans people from basic accommodations.

Gengisgame said:
So who decided that Trans where exempt from this?
First: Trans and Transgender are both adjectives, not nouns, it's "trans people", not "transes" or "trans" without an appropriate noun. At the very minimum using trans, or transgender, without a noun, is bad grammar. I know I've said this to you @Gengisgame directly before.

Now to the quoted part: Trans people aren't exempt, in fact we have to play by the rules even more than cisgender people. Before we transition and before we transition enough to pass as our target gender, we use the facilities of our birth gender, after we start to pass we use the other. These facilities aren't ever enforced on genitals, or genetics, or birth certificates... They're enforced purely on appearance, so we use the facilities that match our appearance, both for our own safety and the comfort of everyone involved. Most of the time people are never aware they've been in a restroom with a trans person. More over a large number of trans people just refuse to eat and drink, to the detriment of their own health, just to avoid using public facilities. Not out of respect either, but because they're terrified for their own safety. We're not exempt from the rules, the rules apply far harder to us than anyone else.
 

Fat Hippo

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Saelune said:
Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean its not there. You probably did not see people uncomfortable with it, because we were all hiding. I doubt anyone at my school noticed my reluctance to change publicly, or when I came to school pre-dressed for gym, atleast until I stopped caring and just wore jeans.

I still did the stuff too...but I guess what I wear is more important since I almost "failed' Gym, and only passed because I guess they didn't want to hold me back for something so trivial.
Hmm, well we had swimming class so it would've been pretty hard to avoid the group showers before that. But I suppose it's possible.

A bit more on topic...a lot of this wouldn't be a problem if we didn't have to be afraid in the bathroom. That's really what it comes down to, we're vulnerable in the bathroom. There is the phrase "Caught with your pants down" afterall. Women don't want to be assaulted, trans people don't want to be assaulted, parents don't want their kids to be assaulted.

I mean, people who assault people will do it regardless, so why punish those of us who just want to pee in peace? Maybe if we got it into people's heads to not be awful people, we would have less problems in the world.
Well...sure. But "people being dicks" is the shortest summary of human history[footnote]If you feel like like putting a negative spin on it, at least[/footnote] so wishing for people to be better than they are will always be futile. You have to find a realistic solution that will work for the largest number of people.

Unfortunately, trans people are caught between a rock and a hard place. If you go to the bathroom of the gender you present yourself as, you will be in trouble if you're discovered since people will think you're being a peeping tom. And if you go to the bathroom of your born gender, you will instantly be in trouble as well.

But hell, maybe if people weren't trying to make laws for one thing or the other, it wouldn't even be a big issue. I've probably shared a public restroom with trans people and not even noticed. And what you don't know wont bother you.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Fat_Hippo said:
Unfortunately, trans people are caught between a rock and a hard place. If you go to the bathroom of the gender you present yourself as, you will be in trouble if you're discovered since people will think you're being a peeping tom. And if you go to the bathroom of your born gender, you will instantly be in trouble as well.

But hell, maybe if people weren't trying to make laws for one thing or the other, it wouldn't even be a big issue. I've probably shared a public restroom with trans people and not even noticed. And what you don't know wont bother you.
It really wouldn't be an issue to anyone but raging transphobes. Since us trans folk have been using restrooms of our presented genders for literally decades with basically no incidents caused by us. Further more 23 states instituted laws that protect trans people with no issues, aside from some cisgender people vehemently protesting the treating of a different group of people like human beings... This was literally a non-issue until the moneyed religious far-right started going after us when they lost on same-sex marriage.
 

09philj

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It's just a front to allow people afraid of everything different to them to express bigoted views under the guise of protecting people. You know, like people have been doing since the dawn of fucking civilisation.
 

Marik2

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I just want to use a womans restroom cuz it's cleaner than a mans restroom. I have accidentally walked into girls restrooms back in high school and it was very relaxing.

There wasn't feces and urine all over the place and stupid gangster graffiti