The adult world is literally the opposite, women's restrooms tend to be a horrific mess, men's ones tend to be at minimum tolerable. In a men's room you definitely won't see a used bloody sanitary napkin on the sink shelf... *shudder*Marik2 said:
Men allowed into the women's changing area. Bathroom debate.
- Thread starter Gengisgame
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867-5309?Marik2 said:
Jenny, is that you?!
OT: Personally, I don't care about the intricacies of gender debate when it comes to this issue. To me it's really, really simple. If you identify as a man and are more comfortable using the male bathrooms, use the male bathrooms. If the opposite is true, use the women's bathrooms. The whole point of having segregated bathrooms, surely, is for people to feel comfortable.
I wish to note that this does not affect me personally. I was born male, I identify as male, I use a male bathroom. And for me to suddenly waltz into a female bathroom would be wrong. It would make me uncomfortable, and it would likely make the women inside uncomfortable too, regardless of my intentions (which would simply be to pee, and nothing more nefarious). But for many the world isn't as binary as this, and it isn't fair to punish transgendered people for the crime of being transgendered. If the person with the beard in the above photo wants to use the men's room, well that makes sense to me.
If I were to play devil's advocate, then the issue becomes where do we draw the line. If I were to suddenly claim that I identify as a woman (regardless of whether I'm being genuine or not) does that mean I should have access to the women's rest rooms? Most of us would agree that if I actually identified as a woman then that'd be fine, but would I need to have undergone gender reassignment at some point? Would I need to be wearing a dress? I'm assuming I will have to have shaved my beard... but at what point does it become "genuine" in the eyes of others? How do we ensure that we don't get people trying to abuse the system by claiming to be transgendered/whatever?
Is that even really a problem, given as pointed out above that this has existed for as long as it has and is only really becoming an issue now?
I don't know. All I think is that as long as everyone is comfortable, then it's all fine. Just if I'm taking a dump, I don't care who you are, leave me be. That's my quiet time.
Do not disturb my quiet time.
I havent given my two cents about the bathroom debate so here goes.
It's just a bathroom. We all do the same thing in there regardless of gender. No. 1s, no. 2s and no. 3s. Plus the occasional weekend shag and make up being applied. Big whoop. In general public restroom, the many I have come across, are just awful and disgusting. I really really try hard to avoid doing a no. 2 in pubic bathrooms.
Oh and the amount of men in suits who I see don't watch their hands after using the bathroom is disgustingly shocking. WATCH YOUR DAMN HANDS!!
So, erm, yeah. Grow the fuck up about who uses the bathroom.
It's just a bathroom. We all do the same thing in there regardless of gender. No. 1s, no. 2s and no. 3s. Plus the occasional weekend shag and make up being applied. Big whoop. In general public restroom, the many I have come across, are just awful and disgusting. I really really try hard to avoid doing a no. 2 in pubic bathrooms.
Oh and the amount of men in suits who I see don't watch their hands after using the bathroom is disgustingly shocking. WATCH YOUR DAMN HANDS!!
So, erm, yeah. Grow the fuck up about who uses the bathroom.
Women's bathrooms are worse? What strange city you live in. Since childhood I have known boys/mens bathroom to be the worse. A god damn smelly wet nightmare.KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
The best meter stick in this case would be actual trans people. A trans person who doesn't pass won't just walk into a bathroom full of the opposite birth sex and say "it's okay I'm actually transgender!"... Any trans person who uses the bathroom of the gender they've transitioned to has at least made a full time transition, which takes a lot of work. One of the worst things that can happen for a trans person is to be outed, or revealed to be trans, because it can literally be a life threatening situation. So unless one passes fairly well as the gender they identify as, they're going to either use their birth sex restroom, or avoid public restrooms entirely.mardocOz said:
That's especially true for people in mid transition, like who are deep enough into HRT that they can't effectively pass for their target gender, but also can't pass for their birth gender either. Like when a trans woman starts developing breasts, or a trans man gets scraggly uneven facial hair. Having to use a public restroom at that point is an absolute nightmare for someone in that state, because both answers are wrong.
So if a burly bearded dude barges into a women's restroom, regardless of weather or not that person is wearing a dress, then claims to be trans... That person is without a doubt lying, because no one who has lived the life of a trans person is stupid enough to put their own self in that much physical and emotional danger.
Edit: This is important, amongst trans people... We have a standard where we tell those who aren't out yet, that they can't expect to have their gender identity respected unless, or until, they're out of the closet and have at least started transition. Not to be mean spirited either, it's just the reality of the world.
Well unless most of the bathrooms you use are in total drunken hellholes, you're more likely to find a urine soaked mess in the women's room than the mens. To be honest, women take a lot of liberties in restrooms where they won't have to answer for the mess, or clean it up. Trust me a urine soaked toilet seat is a lot more disgusting than some pee drips around a urinal, it often seems like gals will go around peeing all over seats as if they're marking the place... This is even in really nice Hotel Casino bathrooms too, where I happen to know the men's rooms are spotless.Marik2 said:
Well see above, any place you find a men's room in that state, the women's room in the pair is probably worse... The men's rooms are dirty while women's rooms are clean stereotype... It's pretty universally inaccurate as stereotypes go.Parasondox said:
I think it should be up to the establishment, as it's their property.
Though, I guess if I were running such an establishment, the Disabled Toilets are already gender-neutral, so, I'd probably just turn that into a gender-neutral-with-disabled-access sorta thing, as that's probably the cheapest and least offensive option.
Though, I guess if I were running such an establishment, the Disabled Toilets are already gender-neutral, so, I'd probably just turn that into a gender-neutral-with-disabled-access sorta thing, as that's probably the cheapest and least offensive option.
I've always thought you could have a unisex room with completely closed stalls AND a nominally unisex (but in reality mainly male) room that is only a large urinal. Both clearly signposted. I don't see why people would object to a separate urinal. If they want they can use a stall in the unisex room and it maintains the speed/efficiency of urinals for those who urinate standing up.Paragon Fury said:
I've seen this in practice in a few restaurants/clubs and it seems very efficient and fair.
Ok, I get fear of rape and everything but... If its going to happen, its going to happen, regardless of what the law says about entering women's change rooms. It wouldn't be that hard for a guy right now to walk into a near empty women's change room and rape someone, or to dress up as a girl and do it. Why don't they do it? Because its illegal to enter a women's change room as a guy? Hahaha, Noooooo. Its illegal to rape someone. If they gave a shit about that it wouldn't be a problem to begin with. Odds are, there aren't that many circumstances in which they wouldn't get caught, so its not worth the risk, and most guys aren't like that anyway.
Pervs going into change rooms? What if there was a lesbian in your change room? Eyeing you all up. I'm sure that'd be perfectly fine. Security staff exist for a reason. If someone is behaving in a perverted manner, they get politely, or not so politely, asked to leave. A card to enter the change rooms isn't a card to do what you want once within. This also means we might actually want more private changing stalls inside change rooms, as I know plenty of women who are uncomfortable changing in front of other women to begin with - such a solution would help everyone regardless of trans laws. This also only applies to change rooms. Toilets? Ha, what are they going to be perving on? Your fully clothed body leaving the shitter? They can do that standing outside the toilets anyway, yet, again, we don't see that happening too often because security would politely escort them from the premises. Oh, and surprisingly seeing a bunch of grandmas walking in and out of the toilets isn't attractive, and I'll guarantee you a lot of women that a person would consider unattractive will use these facilities too, which would rapidly educate them on why they probably won't find it too enjoyable to try perving anyway.
Honestly, allowing trans people to use the bathroom they identify with and feel most comfortable with is a reasonable proposition. Any of the 'risks' associated with it honestly already exist, and we've already got systems in place to counter. Yeah, some people like to talk big about being creeps, if they try it they'll likely find themselves in jail pretty quickly. Its like wanting to outlaw gay guys from going into men's restrooms because they might rape or perv there. If they wanted to, there's nothing really stopping them from doing it as is. I don't really recall any cases where its happened, and while a small minority might want to do so, most people just want to piss/shit, or get changed and move on with their lives. Same goes for trans in their identified gender bathrooms.
Most of the women in the areas I live are rather... Shy, reserved, and awkward about potty business. Their bathrooms are spotless. Seen them on occasion, and many of the women I know who go in regularly are shocked at the state of the men's rooms I explain to them.
Ok, spotless is probably the wrong word. Like any toilet, they'll be a bit dirty. The guy's rooms though?
Urinals aren't used. People like being painful and peeing all over the stall toilet floor, seat, paper and buttons instead for a laugh. Toilets are literally never flushed, and often have shit, piss, or both covering the seat somehow. And the ground.
The floor surrounding the urinals, when they are used, is also soaked. Like, someone has got a bucket of water and thrown it on the ground soaked. Doors are broken off, seats are removed, shit is in the urinals... The guys toilets are often unusable. Because of this, in a lot of places, the guys stall toilets are basically just a metal hole in a box. No seat or anything, just a hole you shit in with 1 ply toiletpaper. The women actually have proper toilets there, as they don't destroy them so the company can pay the upkeep for them. And this isn't drunk people area either. Cinemas, train stations, shopping centers, schools... Its insane.
Go to university exams and guys toilets are also more of a mess. Always blocked and not working. Each guy takes about 20 minutes on the shitter for god knows what reason. The women's are always an efficient flow of a minute or two each and then gone, and there haven't been any blockages I've heard about.
Women can be messy, sure, and in some places I'm sure they're more messy than the guys. Its by no means a norm though. We don't even have functioning toilets half the time that's how badly most people treat them. About the only bad toilet I've seen, is our family one while my sister was in puberty. Yeah, pads and tampons and bloody napkins everywhere, and in the shower, and piss everywhere, and never flushed because she was scared of the noise. She grew out of it, thank god, and didn't behave like that in public thanks to social pressure of every other girl finding that disgusting. Guy's toilets in public though? Oh lord, literally unusable.
Pervs going into change rooms? What if there was a lesbian in your change room? Eyeing you all up. I'm sure that'd be perfectly fine. Security staff exist for a reason. If someone is behaving in a perverted manner, they get politely, or not so politely, asked to leave. A card to enter the change rooms isn't a card to do what you want once within. This also means we might actually want more private changing stalls inside change rooms, as I know plenty of women who are uncomfortable changing in front of other women to begin with - such a solution would help everyone regardless of trans laws. This also only applies to change rooms. Toilets? Ha, what are they going to be perving on? Your fully clothed body leaving the shitter? They can do that standing outside the toilets anyway, yet, again, we don't see that happening too often because security would politely escort them from the premises. Oh, and surprisingly seeing a bunch of grandmas walking in and out of the toilets isn't attractive, and I'll guarantee you a lot of women that a person would consider unattractive will use these facilities too, which would rapidly educate them on why they probably won't find it too enjoyable to try perving anyway.
Honestly, allowing trans people to use the bathroom they identify with and feel most comfortable with is a reasonable proposition. Any of the 'risks' associated with it honestly already exist, and we've already got systems in place to counter. Yeah, some people like to talk big about being creeps, if they try it they'll likely find themselves in jail pretty quickly. Its like wanting to outlaw gay guys from going into men's restrooms because they might rape or perv there. If they wanted to, there's nothing really stopping them from doing it as is. I don't really recall any cases where its happened, and while a small minority might want to do so, most people just want to piss/shit, or get changed and move on with their lives. Same goes for trans in their identified gender bathrooms.
I find this to be completely false in most places, and I bet it really, really depends on the group of people around.KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Most of the women in the areas I live are rather... Shy, reserved, and awkward about potty business. Their bathrooms are spotless. Seen them on occasion, and many of the women I know who go in regularly are shocked at the state of the men's rooms I explain to them.
Ok, spotless is probably the wrong word. Like any toilet, they'll be a bit dirty. The guy's rooms though?
Urinals aren't used. People like being painful and peeing all over the stall toilet floor, seat, paper and buttons instead for a laugh. Toilets are literally never flushed, and often have shit, piss, or both covering the seat somehow. And the ground.
The floor surrounding the urinals, when they are used, is also soaked. Like, someone has got a bucket of water and thrown it on the ground soaked. Doors are broken off, seats are removed, shit is in the urinals... The guys toilets are often unusable. Because of this, in a lot of places, the guys stall toilets are basically just a metal hole in a box. No seat or anything, just a hole you shit in with 1 ply toiletpaper. The women actually have proper toilets there, as they don't destroy them so the company can pay the upkeep for them. And this isn't drunk people area either. Cinemas, train stations, shopping centers, schools... Its insane.
Go to university exams and guys toilets are also more of a mess. Always blocked and not working. Each guy takes about 20 minutes on the shitter for god knows what reason. The women's are always an efficient flow of a minute or two each and then gone, and there haven't been any blockages I've heard about.
Women can be messy, sure, and in some places I'm sure they're more messy than the guys. Its by no means a norm though. We don't even have functioning toilets half the time that's how badly most people treat them. About the only bad toilet I've seen, is our family one while my sister was in puberty. Yeah, pads and tampons and bloody napkins everywhere, and in the shower, and piss everywhere, and never flushed because she was scared of the noise. She grew out of it, thank god, and didn't behave like that in public thanks to social pressure of every other girl finding that disgusting. Guy's toilets in public though? Oh lord, literally unusable.
Please, if you wish to provide a counter-argument I would encourage you to do so.mad825 said:
As it is, everyone seems to be on the same page with this topic. It would be interesting to hear the opinion of one who disagrees... preferably one that isn't ignorant, pointless, prejudiced-filled fear-mongering.
Yeah, there's a double standard, but that's mostly because there's a pretty big difference between how men and women act in these situations.
When I was on a ship for a sailing trip in junior high, guys would peak through holes to catch glimpses into the women's rooms. In high school PE, when we changed in an outside facility where the men's and women's change rooms were separated by a frosted window, there was a band of guys pressing their face against the window to catch a glimpse to an angry uproar from the girls being spied on. When we went to a swimming pool, and we all went diving, there was a group of guys who put on snorkels and hid underwater so they could catch a glimpse at girl's breasts when their swimsuits came off. I'm ashamed to say that one of my friends who'd I'd have never guessed would do that was involved in that one. I have a friend who lived in Cairo, and she's told me just how much worse and more aggressive it is there.
Guys do this considerably more than women, it's just something that's considered normal among guys.
That being said, I don't think it has much to do in regards to transgender washroom debate. There's a big difference between someone changing in a change room, or using a washroom, and someone leering at people in it. We allow gay men and women to use the change room and restrooms of their sexuality (Thank god). Being attracted to the gender you're changing with isn't a problem. What should be wrong is the sort of behaviour that causes this uncomfortability. Peeking into stalls, staring at people while they're changing, etc.
When I was on a ship for a sailing trip in junior high, guys would peak through holes to catch glimpses into the women's rooms. In high school PE, when we changed in an outside facility where the men's and women's change rooms were separated by a frosted window, there was a band of guys pressing their face against the window to catch a glimpse to an angry uproar from the girls being spied on. When we went to a swimming pool, and we all went diving, there was a group of guys who put on snorkels and hid underwater so they could catch a glimpse at girl's breasts when their swimsuits came off. I'm ashamed to say that one of my friends who'd I'd have never guessed would do that was involved in that one. I have a friend who lived in Cairo, and she's told me just how much worse and more aggressive it is there.
Guys do this considerably more than women, it's just something that's considered normal among guys.
That being said, I don't think it has much to do in regards to transgender washroom debate. There's a big difference between someone changing in a change room, or using a washroom, and someone leering at people in it. We allow gay men and women to use the change room and restrooms of their sexuality (Thank god). Being attracted to the gender you're changing with isn't a problem. What should be wrong is the sort of behaviour that causes this uncomfortability. Peeking into stalls, staring at people while they're changing, etc.
Actually, I'm with them.Parasondox said:
When it comes to teenagers/kids, yea, the boys rooms are nightmarish.
Adults, it's the otehr way around. Women's rooms are nastier in just about every way. And I'm not talking the menstrual trash, it's BREASTMILK AND HAIR. So much damn HAIR.
Isn't that weird to you?chadachada123 said:
Seriously, think about it. I go into a guys toilet, what are the chances of me seeing dick? If I stand at a urinal, I can peek over (if I was so inclined) and see dick. If I go into the ladies, is it that easy to see a pussy? Even if I peer over or under the stall, I doubt I'd see anything. Yet, you just said female in males toilet is fine but a male in the female toilets is unacceptable.
And to quote Red Dragon (from the Hannibal film series) "Now do you see?".
On topic. I go to costa and subway a lot and they have just a toilet with a sink and all that, with both male and female sign on the door. Never a problem! It's what all places should have!
To be honest, I have never understood why places have stalls with fake walls that don't reach the floor and ceiling ... is it in case the simple sliding lock jams and I need to get out? What are the chances that you can shut the door but can't unlock it? More likely to happen at home yet there we are with 4 solid walls.
Get rid of urinals, men take the same amount of time to piss in a toilet or urinal but the ladies need a toilet. Then have enough room to stand, then a toilet, bricks floor to ceiling and door that locks. Easy! Oh and a roomy one for the disabled folk among us.
Save room? I think it takes up more room to have two rooms for different genders.
Oh and the same shtick for changing rooms and showers. Brick 'em up and have individual ones, can you have less people? Sure but how many people are you expecting in these places? I've seen changing rooms in gyms that can fit 100 guys, assuming the ladies is the same size 200 people in the gym at the same time? But only 10 showers (5 in each)
Not sure if is this a hill I really want to die on, but here goes...omega 616 said:
Urinals. I would dispute your suggestion it takes the same time to use a cubicle. There's might be door opening and lid lifting involved.
But even if it was the same time. Urinals use MUCH less water. They're better for the environment.
Urinals take up less space. They offload pressure on cubicles for men who need to crap. Adding urinals to a separate section of a unisex toilet would mean shorter wait times for both men and women. In the area it takes to fit a toilet cubicle in the corner of a room, you could close an area off for a trough urinal three standing urinaters could use.
This isn't just theory, I've seen a popular restaurant that had two unisex disabled friendly toilets next to each other and a small room with a trough urinal for about 3 people. With a shared handwashing station. It worked really well men. Men moved quickly in and out of the urinal area. Women had a minimal amount of waiting for the two cubicles.
So 3 seconds to shut a door, that you might actually feel comfy not shutting and to lift a lid/seat ... well that's like arguing to say u instead you 'cos it's quicker. Saves water? Fair play but I've never been convinced water is "used up", is cheaper would be a better argument 'cos you have to pay for water usage.WolfThomas said:
Can't argue with the rest of it, I've just never been a fan of standing shoulder to shoulder having a piss with other guys.
A) the world is changing, 100 years ago transgender wasn't a thing, now it is ... especially with the snowfake squad.TheLaughingMagician said:
C) Read B. It's pretty obvious when a person is trying to perv and yoiu could make it harder to perv by building the walls higher and lower.