Men: Now a Minority in PC Gaming.

Kathinka

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RedDeadFred said:
oh there's absolutely nothing wrong with it! i too would like to have it. but yes, the additional resources, development time and budged strains are more than just pocket change. the art guys have to create tons of assets, you need female voice actors (pricey!) to record huge amounts of lines, the animation dudes need to do new skeletons, meshes and animations (takes a long ass time and is a lot of work)..it's not prohibitively expensive, but it would require a TON of resources much better spent in other content. there's also a imo rather minor point of balancing with female models and their corresponding hit boxes being smaller. i don't think that would be a huge deal, but it was something brought up in the forums, so i thought i'd include it.

tl;dr: it would be nice to have, but should be much lower on the priority list than say, more vehicles, equipment, map design, quality voice acting and so on.
 

prowll

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Verlander said:
Games are games, regardless of how "casual" they are.

Anyway, it's hardly a minority. Having near identical representation is not the same thing as being a minority.
And I'm still wondering how 'necessary' all of these arguements are. Let's look at the 'casual' game arguement. I feel the EXACT same way as most people. Farmville isn't a game, it's a toy, and a waste of time. However, I add that Call of Duty isn't a game, it's a murder simulator, and shouldn't be included either. (also, the frat boys that think CoD is the end-all and be-all of gaming should have mandatory psychological therapy. But I digress.) At some point, people have to draw a line. Include all the 'computerized time wasters, and categorize them later', or define a gamer, and look at who falls into that definition.

And as far of who's playing... does it matter? WHO CARES if the other people have innies or outies? WHO CARES if more women start playing? Frankly, if you're a cool person to talk to, I don't care if you have green skin and three ears, I'll hand you a controller and 'let's get to fragging'.

As was previously mentioned, we have REAL problems to deal with. If we spend half of our energy that we waste complaining about who's playing what, on something like climate change, we wouldn't have polar bears wandering Denver in 5 years....
 

Raikas

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Arnoxthe1 said:
Why do they ALWAYS include mobile/social games for these kinds of surveys? Just stahp.
Why should they? The line between "real" games and "mobile" games moves with nearly every person who argues about the topic. Those flash games that people mock are often just versions of older games - so are retro gamers not real gamers now? Is Farmville really so removed from something like Animal Crossing?

And that's without getting into games that aren't simple mobile ones, and still get dismissed - things like The Sims or visual novels, or the simpler adventure games. Acting as though there's some game/non-game line is absurd.
 

Arnoxthe1

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Raikas said:
Why should they? The line between "real" games and "mobile" games moves with nearly every person who argues about the topic. Those flash games that people mock are often just versions of older games - so are retro gamers not real gamers now? Is Farmville really so removed from something like Animal Crossing?

And that's without getting into games that aren't simple mobile ones, and still get dismissed - things like The Sims or visual novels, or the simpler adventure games. Acting as though there's some game/non-game line is absurd.
This isn't about the fact that mobile games aren't games or that social games aren't games though. It's about the fact that we already pretty much know that a lot of people of both genders equally play those games.
 

Edl01

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Verlander said:
Games are games, regardless of how "casual" they are.

Anyway, it's hardly a minority. Having near identical representation is not the same thing as being a minority.
No it isn't. If I cook a Pot Noodle am I a Chef? If I go to see 3 films in a year am I a film buff? If I check my Farmville once a week for 10 minutes am I a gamer. No.
But even by the logic that they are, it still makes NO sense why this survey would matter. After all people who just play Facebook games and Kongregate are playing a completely different type of game, since they're Free to Play they are not bringing any money into the industry or helping it's growth because most of them don't CARE about the gaming industry. The audience for big triple A releases and Facebook Games are clearly different, so why are they being grouped together like this? This is like grouping together Rugby League and Rugby Union players just because both games have, "Rugby", in the title.

I feel the need to mention I don't care if someone likes to play Facebook games, I really don't care what people do with their free time. However a person who occasionally puts 10 minutes into Farmville isn't a gamer. With that also said I should acknowledge that there is a growing number of Female gamers, I'm good friends with a few, however that doesn't mean that when someone pushes a survey so obviously flawed as this I won't insult it.
 

Raikas

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Arnoxthe1 said:
This isn't about the fact that mobile games aren't games or that social games aren't games though. It's about the fact that we already pretty much know that a lot of people of both genders equally play those games.
But how else could they produce any demographic information? Sure, you could do a breakdown by genre? But my point was that their are genres that cover both. Even if you studied it by console vs phone vs tablet vs PC that's not necessarily telling since you can play everything from Farmville to Baldur's Gate on a mobile device.

And I don't believe that if mobile/social games were taken out of the equation that we wouldn't see the same arguments that we see in this thread - the focus would just be visual novels instead of Farmville or something of that nature.
 

Maevine

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Cool beans.

Also, if you're a person who believes only certain games should count as games and the rest are actually non-games that just happen to be exactly the same thing as games... please go do something some other place where we can't see or hear you. Because you don't make any sense.

Mobile games are games. ~Casual~ games are games. Please get all the way over it.
 

Arnoxthe1

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Raikas said:
Arnoxthe1 said:
But how else could they produce any demographic information? Sure, you could do a breakdown by genre? But my point was that their are genres that cover both. Even if you studied it by console vs phone vs tablet vs PC that's not necessarily telling since you can play everything from Farmville to Baldur's Gate on a mobile device.

And I don't believe that if mobile/social games were taken out of the equation that we wouldn't see the same arguments that we see in this thread - the focus would just be visual novels instead of Farmville or something of that nature.
Why don't we just simplify this and see how many people play or have recently played Call of Duty which is a very popular yet "hardcore" game? Or perhaps Halo? Skyrim?

I'd be MUCH more interested in results from a survey like that than I would about how many people play social/mobile games, no matter how good they're made.
 

RedDeadFred

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Kathinka said:
RedDeadFred said:
tl;dr: it would be nice to have, but should be much lower on the priority list than say, more vehicles, equipment, map design, quality voice acting and so on.
For some games, I agree, it's definitely a low priority. For others, I think it's really high up. For example, imagine not being able to choose your gender in an Elder Scrolls game. That would be blasphemous at this point. I think RPGs should always allow for this choice, unless of course the narrative is strongly built around the character being male (i.e. the Witcher series). If I was forced to play as a women in Skyrim, I honestly would enjoy the game less. For me, RPGs are about getting immersed in the game world and playing as a character who is a different gender than myself partially breaks that immersion. It's simply because since I am a man, I am going to better relate to my male character. Who knows though, maybe that's just my personal preference and it's not actually as big of a deal to people as I think.
 

gamer_parent

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RedDeadFred said:
Kathinka said:
RedDeadFred said:
tl;dr: it would be nice to have, but should be much lower on the priority list than say, more vehicles, equipment, map design, quality voice acting and so on.
For some games, I agree, it's definitely a low priority. For others, I think it's really high up. For example, imagine not being able to choose your gender in an Elder Scrolls game. That would be blasphemous at this point. I think RPGs should always allow for this choice, unless of course the narrative is strongly built around the character being male (i.e. the Witcher series). If I was forced to play as a women in Skyrim, I honestly would enjoy the game less. For me, RPGs are about getting immersed in the game world and playing as a character who is a different gender than myself partially breaks that immersion. It's simply because since I am a man, I am going to better relate to my male character. Who knows though, maybe that's just my personal preference and it's not actually as big of a deal to people as I think.
I would add onto this by saying that western RPGs are often about exploration and self-expression. The ability to create your avatar as you please and fit your preferred self-expression is part and parcel of what makes it all work. So, if one of the only things that prevents a female player from playing an RPG is the ability to create a female avatar, then I 100% agree that you should include female avatars as part of the game production schedule, even if it does eat additional resources.
 

Raikas

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Arnoxthe1 said:
Why don't we just simplify this and see how many people play or have recently played Call of Duty which is a very popular yet "hardcore" game? Or perhaps Halo? Skyrim?

I'd be MUCH more interested in results from a survey like that than I would about how many people play social/mobile games, no matter how good they're made.
Heh, I've seen plenty of threads here that slam CoD as being for dudebros/teenagers/casuals-who-think-they're-gamers, so I don't think that would stop the arguments.

Still, even without that particular issue, any small sampling of games is going to miss people who aren't fans of those particular ones. Personally, I've never playing anything from the Halo series, and I stopped playing Skyrim two years ago (although I put a decent amount of time in it when it first released), so I wouldn't make the cut. Which is fine, but if your cutoff is eliminating even the kind of people who post on gaming sites, I'd have to wonder how many other people you'd be missing.
 

Kathinka

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RedDeadFred said:
Kathinka said:
RedDeadFred said:
tl;dr: it would be nice to have, but should be much lower on the priority list than say, more vehicles, equipment, map design, quality voice acting and so on.
For some games, I agree, it's definitely a low priority. For others, I think it's really high up. For example, imagine not being able to choose your gender in an Elder Scrolls game. That would be blasphemous at this point. I think RPGs should always allow for this choice, unless of course the narrative is strongly built around the character being male (i.e. the Witcher series). If I was forced to play as a women in Skyrim, I honestly would enjoy the game less. For me, RPGs are about getting immersed in the game world and playing as a character who is a different gender than myself partially breaks that immersion. It's simply because since I am a man, I am going to better relate to my male character. Who knows though, maybe that's just my personal preference and it's not actually as big of a deal to people as I think.
agreed. RPGs, at least that sort that lets you shape your protagonist to your liking, must have it, it's such an essential choice. the majority of RPGs have it i guess, and that's a good thing. other RPGs do fine without it. Planescape Torment, perhaps the greatest RPG of video game history (at least concerning storytelling) had a male-only protagonist and did perfectly fine. But the whole story was built around his character, I don't really see how they could have made him female.
but yeah, as a general rule: gender choice in RPGs: very good thing.

but in things like say, shooters or real time strategy, i'm totally ok with an all male cast, and that doesn't make the developers privileged sexist cis scum.
 

cleric of the order

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The Lunatic said:
Your heard that right folks, men are now a minority in PC gaming. According to a study by SuperData Research, 50.2% of all PC gamers are women.

That number spikes up to 53.6% for RPGs and 57.8% for Mobile games.

On the flip side, 66% of all FPS and MMO players are men.

Personally, I think it's a good sign that the PC Game Market has achieved an almost-equality in the gender distribution.

It also brings about an interesting change in perception of gaming as an activity, usually seen as "Something nerdy guys do" it's nice to see that the reality is rather more different. Whilst it has been the case for a long time that men and women seem to be more prominent in certain genres that other, it's nice to see the figures that finally support that.

However, I do caution that this is only one study and suggest people consider a number of sources before forming a firm overall opinion on the matter.

For those still reading, a few questions:

1. Why do you think more women play RPGs than men?

2. Why do you think more men FPSs than women?

3. Mobile, Social or "Casual" games are included in these numbers, do you think they should be discounted, if so, why?


Now, to any men reading the thread, I'll be handing out minority cards for you to use at your leisure. (Please don't hurt me female overlords, I'm joking.)


Source: Here! [http://www.gameranx.com/updates/id/24894/article/women-play-more-pc-games-and-rpgs-than-men/]
This does not seem legit, mobile games I understand but RPGS is odd.
I'm not good at the peer review or any of this nonsense but a minimum of a 1000 sample size seems off
What defines the RPG in this sense, what were the questions asked, whom and with area group did they ask>
Where is the raw data, what are the age groups, can this be confirmed?
I don't know really, it seems very light for a formal positivist study but I don't have a lot to work with in both my experience with these sorts of studies and their published work.
I don't want to research this so I'm going to say, more time and patience is needed to be sure and this smells like some grade A cow pats.
>linked to gaming blog Owned by the company that owns time warner published this study.
No, no thank you, I doubt this study greatly.
Give time this will be proven to be correct or not anyway.
That being said it would not surprise me for most parts, the rpgs surprise me.
Also it's pretty nebulous what makes an rpg, perhaps If they included the sims and other life games then I can for sure expect the numbers to be that high.
But rpgs are weird.

The question of why men prefer Fps seems like a not much of a question if you would forgive my bluntness.
Men have greater preference for action, violence and the like.
Frat boys enjoy the FPS quite a lot.
FPS are competitive which if i am not mistaken men tend to prefer those sorts of games by nature.
I remember women not having eyes as adapted to detecting and responding to movement quickly but are able to see shades of colours deeper then the male can.
This is the sort of thing you could talk up a tree with the amount of conflicting but oddly harmonious information facts and figures laid out in lock step.
And a lot of it works under the banner of sexual dimorphism.
Sorry for the large spiel I've just been amassing data in that area and I've never been able to shut up about it when i get the chance.

The mobile games part is weird and I think that It should be discounted if we are doing with PC gaming, I mean if it's a mobile game then it's not a PC one. On top of that people don't take into account the time spent playing those games. For all we know it's little more then 10min on the subway.
Actually yeah I'd like to see a man hour split between men and women gamers, now that could be cool. Also a good indicator of ... something.

Oh and thanks for the Minority card, it feels good to have one.
 

Aaron Sylvester

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Yes, well done for gathering utterly meaningless and generic statistics and file everything from toddler with an iPhone to an EVE Online addict under "gamer".

Doesn't change the fact they are exactly that - utterly meaningless and generic statistics that are of no use to anyone, especially not gamers, game developers or publishers. Why even bother with trying to use statistics like this to hide the truth?

Lets see a breakdown of gender with all categories/genre of games. Good luck finding that because no company wants to reveal those numbers.

It's like The ESA all over again.
 

medv4380

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The Lunatic said:
Your heard that right folks, men are now a minority in PC gaming. According to a study by SuperData Research, 50.2% of all PC gamers are women.

That number spikes up to 53.6% for RPGs and 57.8% for Mobile games.

On the flip side, 66% of all FPS and MMO players are men.
Studies that don't report the Margin of Error, or sampling methodologies can't, and shouldn't be trusted.

What was reported when you follow the link trail to the original article is that it's several different studies that generate those figures.

With a minimum of 1000 sample size your Margin of Error is at least +-3%, if not higher, so the females ratio being at 50.2% means nothing because the MOE overlaps so solidly that women being ahead could easily be a measurement error.

Mobile could be a sampling issue which is why methodology, and selection process are important. If it is anything it probably has a bit to do with Facebook clicker games being so dominant on the mobile platform. Those games are made to appeal to women because facebook has a lop sided male to female ratio in favor of women. So when the games move from Facebook to Mobile their audience moves with them.

For First Person Shooters I'd just point out the very simple real world statistic that Men are 4 times more likely to buy a gun than a women. I'd expect games about guns to have the same, or similar lop sided value. However, I'd still question their sampling methodology even though it meets my expectations.

RPG's could be nothing more that MOE, or Sampling issue, but if it were something then I'd say it may have a bit to do with RPG's vanishing from most platforms. Bravely default was one of the latest to try and breath life back into the genre, but since it wasn't release everywhere so it's going to reflect the population of Nintendo's audience more than the population at large.

Also RPG is a vague term. There are Western RPG's, JRPG's, Action RPG's, CRPG, Turn Based RPG, Strategy RPG, and so on. Women might not make that distinction since a lot of that is married to the past when male gamers made up a much larger population. Does the guy who likes Turn Based Strategy JRPS's say he likes RPG's, or does it answer Strategy instead? This is why disclosing methodology is important. We'd know if they took this into account, or not if they had.
 

JUMBO PALACE

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Verlander said:
Games are games, regardless of how "casual" they are.

Anyway, it's hardly a minority. Having near identical representation is not the same thing as being a minority.
I don't know about this. If we were talking about the prevelance of women in tabletop games like DandD or Warhammer and the data included people who play Candyland you probably wouldn't think they were comparable.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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It never fails to impress me how fervently, how stridently some "gamers" push back against studies like this. As if it affects them in any way.

Games are games. Full stop. They may be good games or they may be bad games, but if the creator of a games says it's a game, then it's a game. And we can argue whether it's a good game or not.

But it doesn't make it not a game. As much as don't like spunkgargleweewee, I'm never going to call it "not a real game" because that'd be ludacris.
 

runequester

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I am curious why people are so busy hating on people playing browser games. They're more advanced than the NES games people grew up with, but I don't see people running in circles declaring that 8 bit gaming is "Not true gaming".

Why are people so afraid at the idea that someone out there is playing a game you don't happen to like?

What makes you "hardcore" enough? Why would that matter at all?

I know people who only play one game, but play it for hours every day. Others play a hundred games a month but only spend an hour or two on each.

What about people who only play video games? Who only play PC games? Who only play one genre of PC games?

What about people who play Call of Duty on the weekends but spend most of their time on casual games?


Give me a clear definition of the term "gamer" and we can have this discussion for real. Until then, it's just a lot of people yelling.
 

Keoul

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JediMB said:
You seem to be inferring meaning that isn't there. All this means to me, personally, is that the oft-used argument that women are a small minority (especially among RPG players), and should therefore not be prioritized, now holds even less water.
No no I agree, the argument that "Women are a small minority" really doesn't hold water.
But now I feel like you're trying to flip the tables. Instead of saying something like "Women no longer a minority in gaming" or something to emphasis how girls are no longer a minority, you're trying to make it seem like guys are the small minority now.

Maybe it's just me but the whole thing rubs me off the wrong way like you felt oppressed (can't think of a better word) before and now you want to be the oppressors.

I mean personally I don't think anyone should give a shit about the percentage, everyone goes on an on about how games are catered to males and it's a male dominated industry but if over 50% of the gamers (in America at least) are girls then the industry really doesn't have a problem product wise right? Girls do enjoy the games that are being pumped out. That's just my two cents on the topic though.
 

Something Amyss

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mad825 said:
pfffft like hell you have.
Funny, that was my thought when you claimed you got good grades on the subject.

Lulz, So let me get this straight, you say that this survey is valid and yet when I question you about it, you refuse and throw rude remarks.
Except for the part where none of that's true. I indicated the sample size was sufficient, something that is true. I did not say the survey was valid. To that end, I even said you were free to question the methodology. I mean, I assume these are terms you're familiar with, since you cited your credentials and all that.

But just to restate, I didn't speak to anything in the study other than its sample size.

Sorry, it sounds like you're on the SJW wagon.
You twisting my words puts me on the SJW wagon? I would think I would have to do something to merit that, but eh.
Phasmal said:
I think it's funny, personally. Watch these kinds of threads and see how long it takes for people to bring up casuals. Even in threads just about women who play games, the conversation shifts very quickly to casuals. Some people can't stop themselves.

And then the whole `but I have never met a female gamer!` thing. That's always a funny one.

I'd like to think that most people would either like more women gaming or are neutral on it. It'd be pretty damn weird to not want women to play games, but I have run into some people like that before.
Well, in fairness, men are never, ever casual gamers, right?