Metal Gear Solid - Why do people hate Raiden?
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I don't understand these people that hate Raiden. Do they realise that this person that they are calling "whiny" and "gay", is in fact a representation of them? Which makes the irony all the more funny.
MGS2 was a game far ahead of its time. Kojima was trying to not only give people a great game with an in depth story, but also an experience and a message to take with them.
Consider this for a moment :
You (everyone) = Raiden :
Immature, brash, and basically a rookie. Like us, he apsires to be like Solid Snake. Raiden is not "whiny", however as everything around him falls apart, (his relationship, his confidence in the colonal and snake) He begins to question his reasons for be here (playing the game).
MGS2 (the game itself) = Rosemary :
Think about it, both were at first something wonderful that we all wanted to have. (Raiden wanted to go home to. Gamers wanted to buy), Plus, like a Rose she is beautiful, however whenever Raiden reaches out to her, her thorns prick him. Both of them changed themselves for us (Rose changing her appearence to suit his tastes, and the game having a deceiving trailer to attract us).
Hideo Kojima, lost his faith in gaming as an art, ever since the hate towards MGS2 and raiden. He overestimated the intellect of most of his audience. He tried to give them a message that would live on with them, even when the game ended. This being represented when Raiden threw away the dogtags at the end and said "Who am I really?..."
Basically Kojima never wanted to continue from MGS2. That is why he was so reluctant when making MGS4 and Rising. (Also, in my opinion, even though I love MGS3 and MGS4.....I can tell that Kojima has simply lost his ideals when creating them) Kojima himself said that he wanted us to fill in the pieces to understand what happened to Raiden. MGS2 was meant to remain as one unique experience for us all. Yet because all people wanted was to gobble on some Snake cock, they couldn't even understand the game for the complexity that it showed, and ammount of symbolism that it contained. It became so unappreciated.
To people who say, "Well what about the story? That shit was bonkers".
It wasn't meant to make complete sense because the entire game was simply a simulation. Do you remember when Raiden mentioned that he had been through VR training? "The kind thats indistinguisable from the real thing"? I believe (and so do many others) that the entire "mission" Raiden completed was merely a simulation from VR. The colonal, rose, snake, were all a mixture of his imagination and expectations of them. Even when he killed Solidus in New York City and he found Rose, that too was apart of the simulation. LOL Many people redeem say "at least you can play as Snake for a bit", however Kojima even gives hints that when you are playing as Snake there, in reality you are playing as Raiden in VR simulation
LOL sorry bout the huge explanation bout MGS2 If your interested I've got more info but for the now I'll just say that most people were just upset about the character change. There is actually nothing wrong with Raiden, its the people that have the screwed up problems.
MGS2 was a game far ahead of its time. Kojima was trying to not only give people a great game with an in depth story, but also an experience and a message to take with them.
Consider this for a moment :
You (everyone) = Raiden :
Immature, brash, and basically a rookie. Like us, he apsires to be like Solid Snake. Raiden is not "whiny", however as everything around him falls apart, (his relationship, his confidence in the colonal and snake) He begins to question his reasons for be here (playing the game).
MGS2 (the game itself) = Rosemary :
Think about it, both were at first something wonderful that we all wanted to have. (Raiden wanted to go home to. Gamers wanted to buy), Plus, like a Rose she is beautiful, however whenever Raiden reaches out to her, her thorns prick him. Both of them changed themselves for us (Rose changing her appearence to suit his tastes, and the game having a deceiving trailer to attract us).
Hideo Kojima, lost his faith in gaming as an art, ever since the hate towards MGS2 and raiden. He overestimated the intellect of most of his audience. He tried to give them a message that would live on with them, even when the game ended. This being represented when Raiden threw away the dogtags at the end and said "Who am I really?..."
Basically Kojima never wanted to continue from MGS2. That is why he was so reluctant when making MGS4 and Rising. (Also, in my opinion, even though I love MGS3 and MGS4.....I can tell that Kojima has simply lost his ideals when creating them) Kojima himself said that he wanted us to fill in the pieces to understand what happened to Raiden. MGS2 was meant to remain as one unique experience for us all. Yet because all people wanted was to gobble on some Snake cock, they couldn't even understand the game for the complexity that it showed, and ammount of symbolism that it contained. It became so unappreciated.
To people who say, "Well what about the story? That shit was bonkers".
It wasn't meant to make complete sense because the entire game was simply a simulation. Do you remember when Raiden mentioned that he had been through VR training? "The kind thats indistinguisable from the real thing"? I believe (and so do many others) that the entire "mission" Raiden completed was merely a simulation from VR. The colonal, rose, snake, were all a mixture of his imagination and expectations of them. Even when he killed Solidus in New York City and he found Rose, that too was apart of the simulation. LOL Many people redeem say "at least you can play as Snake for a bit", however Kojima even gives hints that when you are playing as Snake there, in reality you are playing as Raiden in VR simulation
LOL sorry bout the huge explanation bout MGS2
If your interested I've got more info but for the now I'll just say that most people were just upset about the character change. There is actually nothing wrong with Raiden, its the people that have the screwed up problems.
Their back stories and their personalities are far from similar.Gaiseric said:
That's just stupid. While I love MGS series I think we all need to face one sad truth - Hideo Kojima is a piss poor writer. He's a genius game designer and he has amazing ideas, even great story ideas, but the way he writes those stories is pathetic. And to make things worse, David Hayter is a god damn screenplay writer. If only Kojima let David re-write the dialogues and scenes, MGS games would be 10x better. Not to mention how Kojima doesn't know when a cutscene is supposed to end. Remember that cave scene in MGS3 when Eve gets on a bike? Just as she's about to leave that was the moment the scene should have ended. But noooooooo, Kojima thought that would be a good moment for Snake to ask Eve why she rides a god damn bike. And then a pathetic monologue followed. I still love MGS, but it's full of shit sometimes and that's a fact.TheFinalFantasyWolf said:
It was like expecting to see Russel Crowe, but then be presented with Orlando Bloom. That's MGS2 in a nutshell.
And MGS4 only solidified how much of a flat, shitty charater Raiden was, because the only way they could think of improving him as a character was by making him a cyborg ninja... And yet his wet blanket-personality still managed to shine through.
And MGS4 only solidified how much of a flat, shitty charater Raiden was, because the only way they could think of improving him as a character was by making him a cyborg ninja... And yet his wet blanket-personality still managed to shine through.
Being manipulated and lied to by higher powers, forced to kill their mentors, and going rogue.ImprovizoR said:
They never quit and always do what they think is best.
I guess I should have said they have similarities. The more I think about it you are probably right though.
As people have said, he's a whining blonde ladyboy. I'll be honest though, I don't mind Raiden. Most of the hate comes from the fact that we don't get to play as Snake for more than half an hour in MGS2.
But then again, I didn't think he was any better in MGS4. Sure, he was a cyborg ninja, but he was a lot more dull and cliched as a character. The best cyborg ninja is easily still Grey Fox.
But then again, I didn't think he was any better in MGS4. Sure, he was a cyborg ninja, but he was a lot more dull and cliched as a character. The best cyborg ninja is easily still Grey Fox.
1) His incessant whining really just made you want to stab him.
2) His support cast were so damned frustrating, poorly-realized and just plain robotic (in all aspects; cruel, heartless and lacking in personality development) that they made you want to stab the lot of them, then Raiden just for his association to them.
3) He wasn't Snake, which is what everyone was excited for. Snake was also still young, so there was hedging him out was bound to create a poor reaction.
4) The game was a setup to molding him into a carbon-copy of the character we actually wanted to play as, except that he was still a whiny, selfish prat.
5) When all that failed, they brought him back as a carbon-copy of a DIFFERENT character.
Now that that's all out of my system, Raiden had the potential to be a pretty damned good character. Sadly for him, though, the cards were stacked against him; he had zero characterization, was lacking in the character development department, wasn't even that likable to begin with (see: Big Whiner), and essentially forced everyone to dislike him (see: Not Being Snake).
In retrospect, playing as him after the rest of the games were established with plenty of screen-time for Snake and more meat on the story's bones isn't much of a reason to not like him anymore, but he's still one-dimensional and childish, nevermind the support cast of the game being the largest collection of pricks on the planet.
2) His support cast were so damned frustrating, poorly-realized and just plain robotic (in all aspects; cruel, heartless and lacking in personality development) that they made you want to stab the lot of them, then Raiden just for his association to them.
3) He wasn't Snake, which is what everyone was excited for. Snake was also still young, so there was hedging him out was bound to create a poor reaction.
4) The game was a setup to molding him into a carbon-copy of the character we actually wanted to play as, except that he was still a whiny, selfish prat.
5) When all that failed, they brought him back as a carbon-copy of a DIFFERENT character.
Now that that's all out of my system, Raiden had the potential to be a pretty damned good character. Sadly for him, though, the cards were stacked against him; he had zero characterization, was lacking in the character development department, wasn't even that likable to begin with (see: Big Whiner), and essentially forced everyone to dislike him (see: Not Being Snake).
In retrospect, playing as him after the rest of the games were established with plenty of screen-time for Snake and more meat on the story's bones isn't much of a reason to not like him anymore, but he's still one-dimensional and childish, nevermind the support cast of the game being the largest collection of pricks on the planet.
How have you not played it? o.o It's cheap and right now I'd trade mine in and buy another copy for $60. (unless you don't own a PS3 then forget what I said.Sapient Pearwood said:
------------------------------------
Snake > Raiden
Although raiden is a cyborg badass, I like characters with a little more humanity and weakness. Bis Boss got his ass whipped by volgin and took it like as much of a man as he could. Old Snake got his ass whipped and almost committed suicide. Raiden is a child soldier that grew into a force so badass that even without arms he can still kick FROG trooper ass. He just seems to "sasuke" for me (without the family drama)
LOL I know, the dialogue was sometimes ridiculous and the ammount of cutscenes was even more so. Still, that doesn't mean Raiden as a character was bad, that hate for him was nothing but whiny fanboy backlash.ImprovizoR said:
Anyway, my point is Kojima tried to do something revolutionary, and different with games. MGS2 is deeper than most people realise, you shouldn't write it off as ridiculous. Yes I know, he is certainly not the best at writing dialogue, and timing cutscenes sometimes, but I still stand my statement about the hidden messages within MGS2.
Something like this. The irony of all the Raiden-hate is that the character is basically just a player avatar. As a character, Raiden is supposed to be a contrast to Snake, who is the character that we all "want to be".TheFinalFantasyWolf said:I don't understand these people that hate Raiden. Do they realise that this person that they are calling "whiny" and "gay", is in fact a representation of them? Which makes the irony all the more funny.
MGS2 was a game far ahead of its time. Kojima was trying to not only give people a great game with an in depth story, but also an experience and a message to take with them.
Consider this for a moment :
You (everyone) = Raiden :
Immature, brash, and basically a rookie. Like us, he apsires to be like Solid Snake. Raiden is not "whiny", however as everything around him falls apart, (his relationship, his confidence in the colonal and snake) He begins to question his reasons for be here (playing the game).
MGS2 (the game itself) = Rosemary :
Think about it, both were at first something wonderful that we all wanted to have. (Raiden wanted to go home to. Gamers wanted to buy), Plus, like a Rose she is beautiful, however whenever Raiden reaches out to her, her thorns prick him. Both of them changed themselves for us (Rose changing her appearence to suit his tastes, and the game having a deceiving trailer to attract us).
Hideo Kojima, lost his faith in gaming as an art, ever since the hate towards MGS2 and raiden. He overestimated the intellect of most of his audience. He tried to give them a message that would live on with them, even when the game ended. This being represented when Raiden threw away the dogtags at the end and said "Who am I really?..."
Basically Kojima never wanted to continue from MGS2. That is why he was so reluctant when making MGS4 and Rising. (Also, in my opinion, even though I love MGS3 and MGS4.....I can tell that Kojima has simply lost his ideals when creating them) Kojima himself said that he wanted us to fill in the pieces to understand what happened to Raiden. MGS2 was meant to remain as one unique experience for us all. Yet because all people wanted was to gobble on some Snake cock, they couldn't even understand the game for the complexity that it showed, and ammount of symbolism that it contained. It became so unappreciated.
To people who say, "Well what about the story? That shit was bonkers".
It wasn't meant to make complete sense because the entire game was simply a simulation. Do you remember when Raiden mentioned that he had been through VR training? "The kind thats indistinguisable from the real thing"? I believe (and so do many others) that the entire "mission" Raiden completed was merely a simulation from VR. The colonal, rose, snake, were all a mixture of his imagination and expectations of them. Even when he killed Solidus in New York City and he found Rose, that too was apart of the simulation. LOL Many people redeem say "at least you can play as Snake for a bit", however Kojima even gives hints that when you are playing as Snake there, in reality you are playing as Raiden in VR simulation
LOL sorry bout the huge explanation bout MGS2
Because of this...
- "I can't understand anything, why does everyone hate me, my girlfriend doesn't like me, I knocked up a whore, booohoooooooooo!?"
Luckily, Kojima fixed this by senselessly turning him into the next Gray Fox since everyone Metal Gear Solid game needs a Grey Fox. The thought of having a cyborg ninja around at all times that could cut you into sushi is a scary yet thrilling thought.
- "I can't understand anything, why does everyone hate me, my girlfriend doesn't like me, I knocked up a whore, booohoooooooooo!?"
Luckily, Kojima fixed this by senselessly turning him into the next Gray Fox since everyone Metal Gear Solid game needs a Grey Fox. The thought of having a cyborg ninja around at all times that could cut you into sushi is a scary yet thrilling thought.
The introduction of Raiden in MGS2 felt a lot like the introduction of Apollo Justice in AJ: Ace Attorney (sequel to the Phoenix Wright games)
Protagonist: I want to be just like [idol]! So I'm going to [complete a mission / handle a trial] on my own!
[idol]: Hneh. Nice going, kiddo. But you'll never be anywhere near my prowess. And you're going to need a LOT of my help to finish this.
Protagonist: [idol]! We're going into this last [battle/trial] together! Will you acknowledge me as your equal??? I could tell my folks I fought alongside the famous [idol]!!
[idol]: Uh.....yeah, sure kid.
Sure feeling like a badass there, eh?
Basically, it's a sucky feeling of "You will never live up to the legend."
Protagonist: I want to be just like [idol]! So I'm going to [complete a mission / handle a trial] on my own!
[idol]: Hneh. Nice going, kiddo. But you'll never be anywhere near my prowess. And you're going to need a LOT of my help to finish this.
Protagonist: [idol]! We're going into this last [battle/trial] together! Will you acknowledge me as your equal??? I could tell my folks I fought alongside the famous [idol]!!
[idol]: Uh.....yeah, sure kid.
Sure feeling like a badass there, eh?
Basically, it's a sucky feeling of "You will never live up to the legend."
He's a wangsty scrappy replacement for the beloved Solid Snake. We didn't ask for this when MGS2 rolled out and I'm not sure I actually like him more in MGS4 for taking a level in ninja STRAIGHT from Gray Fox.
He was actually a serious badass in MGS2, they just didn't decide to reveal that until the very, very end, up to which point he was purposely acting like a wimp to throw people off and avoid his past. The trouble is... he did way too convincing a job and is irritating as shit until he grows a set of balls and admits to being "Jack the Ripper." There's a really good story in there somewhere, but the execution is awful and it's shoehorned into an already-crowded plot where it can't get the attention that it deserves, so it overcompensates frequently to get the player's attention.Irriduccibilli said: