Minecraft's Notch: Mojang Isn't Worse Than EA

Adfest

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So many server owners are in it for the wrong reason. They think they can profit from a server by requiring "donations" for extra commands, diamonds, access to certain blocks, etc. I'm surprised this is an issue, because for the most part, those servers fail after a short time. All that stuff you built. All that money you donated... Straight into the void.

There are plenty of servers out there that aren't like this. You just have to dig through the trash a little.
 

Avaholic03

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RealRT said:
Well, ain't that an argument for having only the servers the devs run.
Not really. It's more an argument for better-informed consumers who don't fall for this stupid shit. Unfortunately, Minecraft is basically a babysitting tool for many disinterested parents, so kids are probably the most common victim of these greedy servers. I don't really feel sorry for anyone that falls for this though. If you're stupid enough to pay money for things that should be free, then you probably shouldn't have that money in the first place.
 

Karloff

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Vrach said:
So, rather than enforcing your own rules and punishing people who are breaking them, they just went ahead and said "ok, you know what, it's fine, just make it so it's not traced back to us". That's a really shitty business practice right there and since the comparison's already in place, I wouldn't even expect this from EA, if only because they're happy to enforce their own stupid rules.

I'm not saying the rules couldn't stand to be changed. But if there was a rule in the EULA that said "you can't charge for x" and people did, then it's Mojang's responsibility as the copyright owner to enforce those rules and heck, I'll even say it, refund those people who've bought stuff that shouldn't have been possible to be charged for (or rather, offer the refund, in case they're fine with it).

Don't get me wrong, parents are idiots not to educate their kids on these things and give them access to a credit card at the same time. That's their fault. But if someone gets charged for something the rules clearly state you can't be charged for, then the fault sadly still lies with the people who broke the rules and the responsibility to take action on that belongs to the company who made them.
Enforcing rules is expensive and probably not very practical. after all. there's international jurisdiction and all that. If the server is somewhere they can't touch. nothing can be done. Mojang makes the games, they make the server kits and it's alll moddable.. that said, people will mod it in ways they don't like.

Let's put it this way. Mojang makes the software, they have limited control over how it is used. Mojang doesn't own all the servers, they can control their servers but thsoe of others.. not so much. So if a server is charging for stuff.. play on a server that doesn't. Bam. problem solved.


And as for parents saying their kid spent how much on stuff... uhm... parents... why do you give your kids that level of access to your finances?
 

Vrach

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Mromson said:
They changed the rules to what they were supposed to be, ie.: "It's your server, do whatever the f'ck you like as long as it doesn't break any laws." Why on earth would slap a company for allowing customers to do with their product as they please? What the hell, really???
I've nothing against the new rules, just saying, don't put rules there you're not going to enforce. I'm not saying Mojang should get slapped for this, I'm saying they should've slapped the people breaking their rules instead of literally turning around and saying "hey, you guys who broke our rules for a while, don't worry about it, we're changing them now".

This is a moneymaking thing here, not a "hey, I modded pretty textures into my game". There's a difference and if you're going to make rules about it, you should be ready to enforce them. Or just not make them in the first place or advise against them rather than make them out to be a breach of contract.
 

vallorn

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These guys seem to do it right most of the time: http://www.escapecraft.net/store/

But no system is perfect, Hopefully this will kill off some of the cancerous megaservers who do stuff like buy votes on the minecraft lists and such. Maybe smaller servers that have never even broken even through donations will actually have a chance now?
 

Exterminas

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webkilla said:
Exterminas said:
Funny thing about rules: Don't make 'em, if you can't enforce them. Or don't want to enforce them. Makes you look kind of weak.
I think missing the point - sort of. I get what you're saying, but Mojang is merely saying "Don't come to us if some server is charging for in-game crap that they shouldn't be doing"

It's a question of legal liability. Mojang doesn't want to be sued for some scummy server selling things that nobody should be buying in the first place
My point is that they should not have put a silly rule like that - one that they can't possibly enforce - into their EULA.

People will always try to wring money out of other people's popular content. Probably every big game developer faces stuff like angry parents wanting money.

By atting that clause to their EULA, Mohjang just gained themselves the added bonus of having to do a public backpaddling in addition to the annoying parents.
 

RealRT

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Avaholic03 said:
RealRT said:
Well, ain't that an argument for having only the servers the devs run.
Not really. It's more an argument for better-informed consumers who don't fall for this stupid shit. Unfortunately, Minecraft is basically a babysitting tool for many disinterested parents, so kids are probably the most common victim of these greedy servers. I don't really feel sorry for anyone that falls for this though. If you're stupid enough to pay money for things that should be free, then you probably shouldn't have that money in the first place.
On the one hand, you're right. On the other hand, making these idiots stop being idiots is impossible.
 

Michel Henzel

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May 13, 2014
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All this cause someone actually read the EULA for once and posted about it. Add a bit of misinformation, some fear mongering and voila mass hysteria. People were acting like the world was about to end, figuratively speaking. And yet, as it turns out, it was always in the EULA to begin with. People freaked out all those months ago about the EULA in regards to mods with the same amount of hysteria and it being the death of Minecraft. Did any of that happen? Nope, nothing. People are pretty much freaking out over absolutely nothing.

And why is it such a big deal here anyway? I hear nobody freaking out with EULA's from every other game company, which are often far more restrictive then Mojang's. But then again, nobody reads those things anyway.
 

UltimatheChosen

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Vrach said:
UltimatheChosen said:
I think this is a case where it was a rule that's too difficult for them to enforce. Minecraft has an obscene number of players (and presumably servers), and you'd probably need a full-time team of people to keep track of the servers and make sure that none of them are breaking the rules.

And I can understand why Mojang wouldn't want that headache.
I can understand why you wouldn't want the headache of doing your job as well, it doesn't change anything about the situation.

If they had these rules in place since the beginning, it'd be fine. If they enforced the rules, then changed them, that'd be fine as well. But allowing people to break your rules (and in the process of that, damaging someone) and then distancing yourself from it by making it okay is just refusing to do your job and that's most certainly not okay.
Except that this is a case of having the rules, then realizing that you aren't able to enforce them, and changing the rules so that they're more consistent with your actual capabilities.

Which, again, is not unreasonable.
 

Infernal Lawyer

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So as has been said, this is very much a case of Mojang going "Um... Shit. Better backpedal from those rules we can't enforce".

That said, this seems to be more of an issue with stupid parents/children and how tablets and whatnot seem to have zero parental controls to prevent children from falling to these leeches.
 

Bat Vader

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Mromson said:
Vrach said:
So, rather than enforcing your own rules and punishing people who are breaking them, they just went ahead and said "ok, you know what, it's fine, just make it so it's not traced back to us". That's a really shitty business practice right there and since the comparison's already in place, I wouldn't even expect this from EA, if only because they're happy to enforce their own stupid rules.

I'm not saying the rules couldn't stand to be changed. But if there was a rule in the EULA that said "you can't charge for x" and people did, then it's Mojang's responsibility as the copyright owner to enforce those rules and heck, I'll even say it, refund those people who've bought stuff that shouldn't have been possible to be charged for (or rather, offer the refund, in case they're fine with it).

Don't get me wrong, parents are idiots not to educate their kids on these things and give them access to a credit card at the same time. That's their fault. But if someone gets charged for something the rules clearly state you can't be charged for, then the fault sadly still lies with the people who broke the rules and the responsibility to take action on that belongs to the company who made them.
They changed the rules to what they were supposed to be, ie.: "It's your server, do whatever the f'ck you like as long as it doesn't break any laws." Why on earth would slap a company for allowing customers to do with their product as they please? What the hell, really???

And they're sure as hell not obliged to enforce their own EULA.

...man this got me riled up...
If they aren't going to enforce their own rules in the EULA than what was the point of them even adding that rule to the EULA? Sure, they don't have to enforce it but it makes them seem really lazy if they don't and then change it just to try and save face.
 

SadisticFire

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Honestly this isn't really that bad, though I can see where people are coming from. I was playing on an FTB server where the server owner was a complete dick. Got mad when his playerbase up and left, shut down. But the real kicker? Some kid just payed 100$ for creative. That alone sucked, but he pocketed the money too and transfered it to his bank(He isn't very bright and the co owner got his email..)
 

Bat Vader

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SadisticFire said:
Honestly this isn't really that bad, though I can see where people are coming from. I was playing on an FTB server where the server owner was a complete dick. Got mad when his playerbase up and left, shut down. But the real kicker? Some kid just payed 100$ for creative. That alone sucked, but he pocketed the money too and transfered it to his bank(He isn't very bright and the co owner got his email..)
I hate people like that. He has the audacity to get angry when his actions were the reason everyone left in the first place. I feel bad for that kid. Hopefully some karma bites that guy pretty soon.
 

RoboWizel

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I get the distinct impression that Notch is a bit of an idealist gamer and game developer who feels that is wrong for a server operator to implement a system which permits a direct correlation between the real world money a player spends and how much in-game advantage that gives them over other players on the same server. Perhaps that's some explanation for those portions of Minecraft's original EULA, and by adding them he probably hoped it might slow down the rate at which his game became associated with the pay-to-win market. I don't doubt a lawyer's advice was influential too, but it was probably crafted around Notch's wishes.
 

Strazdas

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Exterminas said:
Funny thing about rules: Don't make 'em, if you can't enforce them. Or don't want to enforce them. Makes you look kind of weak.
Funny thing about EULA - its not legally binding. you can break any part of eula you want and so can Mojang. so Mojang didnt actually make any rules other than "please dont do it or we will look angrily at you". the rules are literally unenforcable. thats like making rules that everyone should stop breathing for 1 hour to conserve oxygen and then get mad at it not being enforced. yeah, not going to happen here.
 

Exterminas

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Strazdas said:
Exterminas said:
Funny thing about rules: Don't make 'em, if you can't enforce them. Or don't want to enforce them. Makes you look kind of weak.
Funny thing about EULA - its not legally binding. you can break any part of eula you want and so can Mojang. so Mojang didnt actually make any rules other than "please dont do it or we will look angrily at you". the rules are literally unenforcable. thats like making rules that everyone should stop breathing for 1 hour to conserve oxygen and then get mad at it not being enforced. yeah, not going to happen here.
I didn't mean "enforce" in the strictly legal sense. Of course EULAs are not the same as the laws that the state passes and enforces.

But other game dev have the means to enforce their terms of service and frequently do so. For example, if you are buying or selling gold in WOW and are really clumsy about it, Blizz has the option to ban your account. This is the sense of enforcing that I meant. Mohjang lacks such tools, but it's not the case that there are no EULAs around there that are being enforced by the people behind the game.
 

Strazdas

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Exterminas said:
Strazdas said:
Exterminas said:
Funny thing about rules: Don't make 'em, if you can't enforce them. Or don't want to enforce them. Makes you look kind of weak.
Funny thing about EULA - its not legally binding. you can break any part of eula you want and so can Mojang. so Mojang didnt actually make any rules other than "please dont do it or we will look angrily at you". the rules are literally unenforcable. thats like making rules that everyone should stop breathing for 1 hour to conserve oxygen and then get mad at it not being enforced. yeah, not going to happen here.
I didn't mean "enforce" in the strictly legal sense. Of course EULAs are not the same as the laws that the state passes and enforces.

But other game dev have the means to enforce their terms of service and frequently do so. For example, if you are buying or selling gold in WOW and are really clumsy about it, Blizz has the option to ban your account. This is the sense of enforcing that I meant. Mohjang lacks such tools, but it's not the case that there are no EULAs around there that are being enforced by the people behind the game.
you mean by the way Sim City enforced their always online? or Diablo III Always on nonsense? Or the "no private servers, only ours" option you get on modern shooters? yeah, id rather they dont enforce anything at all. not only people are going to find ways around it (ive seen peopel build thier own game engines to play private MMO servers using normal clients).

Minecraft on the other hand is a product that does not uses illusions as their goal and know that private servers are a goal to popularity. Notch seems to be quite naive in thinking how they work. Ideally, he'd be right. In practice, thats not how it works. I remmeber after retiring from Tibia Gamemaster i was asked to be gamemaster on one server. so i dabbled in there and isntantly found ~15 cheaters that i banned. that evening i lost my powers because the owner didnt like that i banned "paying players". and that 6 hour career shows how private servers operate. credit card is king there.

They can ban your account, for whatever reason they want. there isnt any legal obligation from them not to ban it. Mostly they state bannable reasons because, well, its easy to point and shift blame. but they dont have to.
 

Madnet

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Well not entirely but one can say that this business practice of Mojang is worse than the business practice of EA. Because at least they are willing to enforce their rules instead of being pathetic like Mojang and not enforcing the rules they set. If anything I would try to get people to actively uninstall minecraft or not buy the game at all because this a very dangerous path to set going forward. Say it with me pay 2 win is the future of minecraft, and the funny thing is you can't even win minecraft. Think about it If it was EA I would be outraged instead of a "beloved indie developer".
 

SadisticFire

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Madnet said:
Well not entirely but one can say that this business practice of Mojang is worse than the business practice of EA. Because at least they are willing to enforce their rules instead of being pathetic like Mojang and not enforcing the rules they set. If anything I would try to get people to actively uninstall minecraft or not buy the game at all because this a very dangerous path to set going forward. Say it with me pay 2 win is the future of minecraft, and the funny thing is you can't even win minecraft. Think about it If it was EA I would be outraged instead of a "beloved indie developer".
The problem is you can't really enfource the 'rules'. Too many servers, impossible to track who's doing what. That you're essentially saying is that every server should be officially hosted by mojang but that'd make for dull, boring, and laggy servers.(No mods, no plugins).

What people are doing are
hosting servers by paying out of their own pockets
setting up a donation store for a certain amount of items/privileges
asking people to spend money to keep said server up.

This is by no means the only game that has people that do this. Garry's Mod servers do it with much worse things on a frequent basis, by giving admin out. But mostly in gamemodes where they get a distinct advantage(Stupid amount of money, OP weaopns ect ect)

TF2 servers do it by granting admin out sometimes, or to grant donators the privellege of starting votes(To kick/ban/change maps/what ever else) or to get more OP powers.

Terraria does the same thing as minecraft

CSS does the same as TF2
This a problem that is no way limited to Minecraft, and it makes sense. People need money to keep servers up, and if you don't like said server, leave that server.
 

Canadamus Prime

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Of course Mojang isn't worse than EA. You'd have to do a lot more than charge for a few in-game items and make 1 back handed tweet to be worse than EA.