More evidence provided to show the right wing of the Labour party sabotaged Corbyn and everyone associated with him.

Terminal Blue

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The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
 

Silvanus

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The more I learn about the internecine fighting of that era, the angrier I get. And it definitely seems like most of it was coming from the 'centrist' wing of the party apparatus. My vote was squandered. 2017 could've, potentially, been a goddamn turning point.

I'm trying hard to look forward. Labour have just announced the introduction of a state-run energy company within 1 year of election, and the reintroduction of the 45% tax rate. Polls show them leading by between 13 and 17%. There are a few reasons to be optimistic. But for Bast's sake, they make it difficult with this shit.
 
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Trunkage

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The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Look at the animal in the cage that you built.... Better not look at him to closely in the eye. Are you sure which side of the glass you are on?
 

Baffle

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Culpable in the current state of the country. I might vote for them if i feel there's no choice, zero chance I'll ever be a member again. We need something better.
 

Eacaraxe

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The more I learn about the internecine fighting of that era, the angrier I get. And it definitely seems like most of it was coming from the 'centrist' wing of the party apparatus. My vote was squandered. 2017 could've, potentially, been a goddamn turning point.

I'm trying hard to look forward. Labour have just announced the introduction of a state-run energy company within 1 year of election, and the reintroduction of the 45% tax rate. Polls show them leading by between 13 and 17%. There are a few reasons to be optimistic. But for Bast's sake, they make it difficult with this shit.
You were literally the one person on this forum shitting on Corbyn in the face of everyone else telling you it was bullshit.

The antisemitism scandal had become a major national talking point, and from Labour's perspective it was absolutely essential to bring the reputational damage it was doing to an end.

That didn't necessarily mean suspending Corbyn. It wouldn't have happened... had he not picked the worst possible time to mouth off about it, immediately following the EHRC report. His response guaranteed headlines about how the party wasn't accepting the issue, how they were just looking out for themselves, etc. It was an incredible lack of awareness on his part.
That's how it read. Or, to be perhaps more specific, it read as a fundamental lack of concern about the issue itself.

And that's central to the problem with Corbyn's response. Corbyn's response to the EHRC report contained numerous apologies and statements of recognition that antisemitism happened and needs to be stamped out... but it also contained "buts" and self-justification. We've all heard this kind of mealy-mouthed apology before, and it never plays well.

Recall Kevin Spacey's apology for sexual assault, in which he did apologise, but then followed it up by coming out and saying that self-denial influenced his behaviour. OK, it might have done, that might be true. But that's a tremendously awful time to say so. It shows he's more interested in abdication of personal responsibility than he is in addressing the topic that's actually being addressed.

Corbyn's a lifelong anti-racism campaigner, and he's not stupid. But nor is he media savvy. Anyone with basic media-management skills could see how that would play. Insert a "but", and the apology is no longer the story, and people get the impression your priorities are elsewhere.
I don't much care what you think about the two-state solution. The point is that support for the existence of Israel does not indicate support for their current government or policy, which is obviously true.



Then you remember it nebulously and incorrectly. An internal report found that hostility to the leadership hampered the resolution of complaints, though it doesn't conclude this was deliberate sabotage of the complaints procedure.

But this claim doesn't counter the numerous allegations of abuse and harassment taking place. It doesn't claim that this explains the delays and backlog in general, which predate Corbyn. It doesn't go a fraction of the way to allowing us to just handwave away and ignore the frequent named complaints by longstanding Labour members & staffers of harassment and abuse.
Of course it was bigger than Corbyn. But Corbyn's response to it had become emblematic of how seriously the party was taking the issue: if the party leadership didn't credit it, then the party couldn't be said to be taking it seriously.
From a purely strategic point of view, it doesn't matter whether or not you personally credit the EHCR report or not. When it came out, the party had two choices: 1) accept it and draw a line under it; 2) endlessly contest it, ensuring months upon months of severely damaging press.

You could have done #1 and kept Corbyn in the party. If he had an ounce of media awareness or a sense of timing.

I mean shit, this is what you said when I told you it was bullshit.

If you genuinely believe that the self-sabotage within the UK Labour party fully explains its historically enormous defeat, then I'm really not surprised you have that prime real estate in Montana you mentioned earlier. I imagine you paid a fair bit for it.
 
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Silvanus

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You were literally the one person on this forum shitting on Corbyn in the face of everyone else telling you it was bullshit.


I mean shit, this is what you said when I told you it was bullshit.

So you've posted a bunch of quotes of me... uhrm, criticising Labour strategy. Sorry, how does that contradict anything?

If you think it's inconsistent to recognise & feel betrayed by internal sabotage from Labour staffers while also knowing there were plenty of other reasons for defeat-- including the incompetence of leadership, terrible media-savvy, and poorly considered responses to several party crises-- then you're a fool. The existence of internal sabotage doesn't somehow validate every poor call they made.

That last quote you posted referred to the defeat in 2019. And yeah, if you think internal self-sabotage fully explains the 2019 defeat, your analysis is worth very little indeed.

What a bizarre gripe.
 

Silvanus

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lol



Now be fair, there was at least one other person.
Sorry, you're right. Those ~four million people would've voted the other way in 2019 if some Party functionaries had just got with the program. Of course.
 

Terminal Blue

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It is possible to understand and accept two positions simultaneously.

The first is that the labour anti-semitism "controversy" was largely manufactured by a charity which mysteriously popped into existence shortly before the 2015 general election (and seems suspiciously more concerned with finding anti-semitism in the labour party than with growing visibility and violence of the far right in recent years) and that these claims were siezed upon by the largely right-wing British media as a deliberate way to attack Corbyn's leadership.

The second is that there is a minority among the left of the labour party who do not seem to have an adequate understanding of the line between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism, who use terms like Zionism in ways that are ambiguous and conspiratorial and in some cases do this because they are antisemites who do actually believe in a global Jewish conspiracy, not because they are poor at choosing words.

Likewise, it is possible to believe simultaneously that Corbyn's media strategy over the issue was shit, and that the British media was so virulently opposed to him that no media strategy would have been good enough.

Living through the whole trans panic in the UK over the past few years has put a lot of things into perspective for me. In a way it has made me more sympathetic to the position of the CAA and its supporters. Seeing harmful discourses circulate in public space can be far more painful than being at risk of actual violence or harassment, even though the latter is undeniably worse. On the other hand, it has made me very conscious of the fact that the kind of bigotry the CAA claims is rife within the labour party is actually just everywhere in British society, and isn't met with anything near the same level of (admittedly fake) sympathy.

Imagine if we got together and produced an "international definition of transphobia" that included things like using the term "trans ideology" in an insufficiently nuanced way, using AIDS-panic stereotypes like trans people being a threat to children or using any language that might imply trans people are mentally ill or less reasonable than cis people. These are all valid concerns rooted in the particular history of bigotry against queer people in general and trans people in particular, and yet noone is going to care because if they did half the Tory MPs and journalists in this country would need to resign.

Of course, the CAA isn't responsible for the way their statements get used since their job is just to point out antisemitism, but it isn't fair, and exploiting a position of unfairness doesn't build much sympathy with me.
 

Gergar12

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And if you want to know if they learned anything, they haven't.
Unironically fuck Corbyn and the SNP. I wouldn't work with the SNP unless the devil held a gun to someone I loved, and even then I would weigh my options. We don't need another pantsy New Zealand in Europe. As for Corbyn, he can go fuck off with his pro-Russia cowardice, pro-islamic-theocracy in Iran position, and anti-NATO stance.

I will be playing this song when Corbyn dies.

 

Eacaraxe

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...and that these claims were siezed upon by the largely right-wing British media as a deliberate way to attack Corbyn's leadership.

...an adequate understanding of the line between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism, who use terms like Zionism in ways that are ambiguous and conspiratorial and in some cases do this because they are antisemites who do actually believe in a global Jewish conspiracy...

Likewise, it is possible to believe simultaneously that Corbyn's media strategy over the issue was shit, and that the British media was so virulently opposed to him that no media strategy would have been good enough.
I'd strongly urge you to watch parts 2 and 3 of that documentary series. You might need a VPN to watch part 3, as last I heard it was blocked for UK IP's.

They answer your criticisms, here -- the leaks show it was coordinated, was quite intentional, and involved collaboration not just between Labour and shady pro-Israel interest/activist groups, but alt-right and antisemitic groups as well as the media. Hell, some of the allegations made and supported by evidence aren't just defamatory in nature, they're outright criminal especially when talking about Labour leadership's suppression of evidence and refusal to answer summons in court cases relevant to the controversy. All while the "Blairite" faction within the party was engaged in the same behavior for which they were witch-hunting Corbyn supporters.

Practically the entire latter half of part 2 is nothing new for American leftists. By that I mean it is not whether people "understand the line between anti-Zionism and antisemitism", but rather that line has been deliberately obfuscated and shifted over the years to equate Zionism with Judaism, and Judaism with Israel, and equate any criticism of not just Zionism but Israel itself as antisemitism. This is precisely Labour's amendment of the IHRA's Working Definition of Antisemitism in 2018 was so controversial, as the amendments were made not with a mind towards acting against real antisemitism but rather with intent to weaponize it against Corbyn supporters.
 
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Terminal Blue

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I will be playing this song when Corbyn dies.
In the interests of not being banned, let me edit this post to extend you a wholly undeserved courtesy.

Did you intend to out yourself as a fascist just then, and if not what exactly was the thought process?
 
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Gergar12

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In the interests of not being banned, let me edit this post to extend you a wholly undeserved courtesy.

Did you intend to out yourself as a fascist just then, and if not what exactly was the thought process?
No I just really really despise him. As for fascism I have literally voted democrat in very election, donated to Bernie, Biden, voted for Hillary, argued in favor of Lula winning against actual fascists in Brazil, hate Destiny a liberal but argued for his free speech rights, hated Hasan Piker literally a communist and argued for his free speech rights, and right to self-defense against actual fascists Sam Hyde an d his supporters. Argued against Tucker Carlson, didn't vote for Trump and donated to his opponent, and even argued for the anti-American Pakistani president who supported a us terror org in the Taliban, but is better for his people, and isn't a military junta leader.

On the other hand JC has went on Current TV which regularly hosts holocausts deniers. Enables fascists Putin who runs a police-state, and is doing the most fascist thing ever by annexing land from a neighbor to reclaim past glory. Likely enables Fascist China who also runs a police state, and is threatening their neighbors by following a quisling foreign policy.

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