Most convoluted/confusing plots in a game/game series

[Dalisclock]

Since Kingdom Hearts 3 is coming out soon, there's been a lot of dicussion about the apparently infamously convoluted storyline that weaves in and out of the series 3 main games and many side games. Jim Sterling did a video this morning attempting to sum it up until he went insane and broke down.

So I'll admit I've never played the Kingdom hearts series and don't really feel like trying to jump in at this point(for numerous reasons I'm not going to get into) but it did make me think about other games that have either confusing or convoluted storylines, especially with one long running plotline over a number of games.

Off the top of my head, Metal Gear has 8 games in the main series(The first two Metal Gear games, MGS 1-5 and Peace Walker). The side games don't seem to connect to the main series at all so those ca be discounted. THe main series jumps back and forth through time over the course of 50 years(1964-2014) with the beginning and endpoints being MGS3 and MGS4 and everything else somewhere in the middle of the timeline, but the plot twists and turns all over the place as the series goes on, certain things that start out simple become retconned into a huge conspiracy involving clones and then there's certain bits that are just never explained and verge on supernatural(Ocelot's clone arm). So the whole plot ends up being a bit convoluted and crazy.

I should specify that plots that aren't meant to be taken seriously or are purposefully left vague as background information aren't really what I'm asking about here.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

KH is just a meme people bring forth. The parts of its plot that are convoluted are all background stuff you don't really need to pay attention to as you are playing the game. They're more stuff you notice later as you connect the dots. The wrong implication basically is that KH is so convoluted that you won't be able to follow what the hell is going on unless you play everything and write a master thesis on it, which is entirely wrong. KH is a game primarily made for kids and young teens, more so than practically every other square offering of the same production values. If it was this hard to get into a child who is likely coming into KH with KH3 in the current day would have no hope of enjoying the game, yet they still are making it as I describe, so clearly this isn't an issue.



Nier is pretty convoluted, since it takes one of the bad ends of an entirely different series (Drakengard) and makes that into its own starting point. It's also filled with existentialism and things open to interpretation as well as some very heavy symbolism.



(As for Ocelot's arm, there's this concept in science fiction of memories being stored in the dna and all of us sharing the memories of the origin of the universe deep down in our collective subconscious so I think it was basing it off of that and allowing Liquid to be transplanted onto Ocelot since his memories permeated his DNA which includes his arm, though of course it's pretty supernatural)

 

[PsychedelicDiamond]

MGS and Kingdom Hearts (though, to be fair, I haven't played much Kingdom Hearts) both have that weird habit of coming up with plot twists just for the sake of having them. Hell, sometimes coming up with plot twists to negate other, previous plot twists that Kojima/Nomura apparently got bored of. MGS 4 was pretty much one big collection of absurd decisions that seemed to come entirely out of nowhere.

Snake and Otacon adopt Olga Gurlokovich's daughter. Why not! Who's a super genius. Why not! The mission support from MGS3 are the Patriots. Why not! Big Boss is still alive. Why not! Ocelot was just pretending to be posessed. Why not! (To be fair, him being posessed was a pretty Why Not decision to begin with).

I like Kojima as a director, he great at framing and presentation and I think as a writer he has a decent grasp of themes that are a bit more high brow than you usually see in entertainment media but when it comes to actual plot he's godawful. It's like a mental condition. Can't follow a plotpoint through to the end without adding a bunch of pointless subversions.

Of course Metal Gear also has that thing where half of the overarching story happens between games rather than in them. And don't get me started on MGS V, where I'm still convinced that Kojima was taking the piss. I mean "You're a random mercenary fucking around in two different deserts, participating in wars you have no emotional investment in while the real Big Boss is off somewhere else, meeting all the characters you actually care about and getting all the development you don't get to see" is the kind of story you write when you're entirely out of fucks to give. Maybe the game was meant to be a giant middle finger to Konami and the series fanbase.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Of course Metal Gear also has that thing where half of the overarching story happens between games rather than in them. And don't get me started on MGS V, where I'm still convinced that Kojima was taking the piss. I mean "You're a random mercenary fucking around in two different deserts, participating in wars you have no emotional investment in while the real Big Boss is off somewhere else, meeting all the characters you actually care about and getting all the development you don't get to see" is the kind of story you write when you're entirely out of fucks to give. Maybe the game was meant to be a giant middle finger to Konami and the series fanbase.

Considering that MGS II is a giant middle finger to fans of Solid Snake and MGS IV was Kojima desperately trying to end the series, it doesn't feel that far fetched to assume that the inane plot of MGS V was Kojima just pissing about to spite Konami.

 

[Hawki]

Considering that MGS II is a giant middle finger to fans of Solid Snake

What?

Is that, like, actually confirmed? Because the sense I got in MGS II was that it was quite reverent of Snake - I'm pretty sure I read somewhere was that by playing Raiden, we could see how awesome Snake was from an outside perspective.

But as for "convoluted plots," series that come to mind include Assassin's Creed, Metal Gear, and Resident Evil.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

What?

Is that, like, actually confirmed? Because the sense I got in MGS II was that it was quite reverent of Snake - I'm pretty sure I read somewhere was that by playing Raiden, we could see how awesome Snake was from an outside perspective.

But as for "convoluted plots," series that come to mind include Assassin's Creed, Metal Gear, and Resident Evil.

The game reveres Snake, but it hates his fans. Raiden was explicitly designed to be a Snake fanboy, as to mirror the fans who adored Snake. But instead of making Raiden as cool and badass as Snake, he's a whiny, needy kid who's out of his depth and reacts to any change with whining, bewilderment and disappointment. Kojima around the time of MGS IIs release was quite vocal about how he didn't like fans who got too caught up on how cool Snake was and missing the themes of his character. This is also partially the reason why he's Old Snake in MGS IV, as another way for Kojima to give the Snake fanboys the finger.

 

[PsychedelicDiamond]

Considering that MGS II is a giant middle finger to fans of Solid Snake

What?

Is that, like, actually confirmed? Because the sense I got in MGS II was that it was quite reverent of Snake - I'm pretty sure I read somewhere was that by playing Raiden, we could see how awesome Snake was from an outside perspective.

But as for "convoluted plots," series that come to mind include Assassin's Creed, Metal Gear, and Resident Evil.

Solid is a sorta cynical take on the super soldier archetype. We are certainly meant to like him and acknowledge that he's a bad ass but at the same time he's a bit pathetic. In the first game you'really led to think that you're a super cool stealth operative taking out a whole unit of rogue super soldiers all on your own until the whole Fox Die thing is revealed and it turns out that you were sent in there to transmit a virus and it matter very little if you die on the way. Pretty much the entire MGS series is about the protagonist being screwed over by the people they work for. It pretty much completely refutes the idea of the heroic soldier fighting for a righteous cause. Solid was screwed over by Foxhound, Raiden by the Patriots, Naked by the US government and Venom by Big Boss. No matter what institution you work for, you'really playing THEIR game. Maybe that's why we didn't play Big Boss in MGS V. By that point he's become one of THEM.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

All things Metal Gear.

Considering that MGS II is a giant middle finger to fans of Solid Snake and MGS IV was Kojima desperately trying to end the series, it doesn't feel that far fetched to assume that the inane plot of MGS V was Kojima just pissing about to spite Konami.

And yet the ridiculous amounts of gated content, split up content, sheer ridiculous level of unpolish, and fucking ridiculous pacing that makes MGS2 look positively constrained, they still felt it merited US$70 price tag upon release. Nnot includig the sheer gall of GZ.

When will people accept the truth that the only good MGS game was 3?

 

[Casual Shinji]

Considering that MGS II is a giant middle finger to fans of Solid Snake

What?

Is that, like, actually confirmed? Because the sense I got in MGS II was that it was quite reverent of Snake - I'm pretty sure I read somewhere was that by playing Raiden, we could see how awesome Snake was from an outside perspective.

I wouldn't say it's a middle finger to Snake fans, it's Kojima's "artistic expression" of how he felt inadequate in making a sequel to Metal Gear Solid 1. There's a scene where Ocelot literally says 'this was supposed to an accurate recreation of the Shadow Moses incident, but we failed'. The whole thing is meta commentary on sequels not living up to the original. So it's a middle finger to fans who expected to buy a good sequel. It gives us a taste of the good shit with the intro Tanker section, but then "pulls the rug out from under us" by having us a play a shitter version of MGS1 for the remainder.

As for convoluted game plots.. Yeah, Kingdom Hearts. I never finished KH1, but it was relatively straight forward from what I did play. KH2 is when things just went completely up it's own beehive of an ass. Square Enix just can't really write games anymore that don't require you to read or watch a bunch of shit in order to make sense of it.

 

[WhiteFangofWhoa]

Zelda, but only if you try and link (ha) everything together into one timeline.

Darksiders, if only because they keep introducing brand new never-before-mentioned demons, angels and hell analogues in each game, still trying to build up the mystery of why the Apocalypse started too early.

 

[Dalisclock]

But as for "convoluted plots," series that come to mind include Assassin's Creed, Metal Gear, and Resident Evil.

I was tempted to say Assasins Creed, but for all the BS with the modern day plot(what there is of it anymore) and the ISU backstory, you can more or less safely ignore most of both of them and take each games story as it is. There's a few exceptions, such as Brotherhood being a direct sequel to 2, Revelations calling back a lot to the first game and Rogue linking like 3 other games together(3, Freedom Cry and Unity), but mostly it's just references to other games.

Considering that MGS II is a giant middle finger to fans of Solid Snake

What?

Is that, like, actually confirmed? Because the sense I got in MGS II was that it was quite reverent of Snake - I'm pretty sure I read somewhere was that by playing Raiden, we could see how awesome Snake was from an outside perspective.

But as for "convoluted plots," series that come to mind include Assassin's Creed, Metal Gear, and Resident Evil.

Solid is a sorta cynical take on the super soldier archetype. We are certainly meant to like him and acknowledge that he's a bad ass but at the same time he's a bit pathetic. In the first game you'really led to think that you're a super cool stealth operative taking out a whole unit of rogue super soldiers all on your own until the whole Fox Die thing is revealed and it turns out that you were sent in there to transmit a virus and it matter very little if you die on the way. Pretty much the entire MGS series is about the protagonist being screwed over by the people they work for. It pretty much completely refutes the idea of the heroic soldier fighting for a righteous cause. Solid was screwed over by Foxhound, Raiden by the Patriots, Naked by the US government and Venom by Big Boss. No matter what institution you work for, you'really playing THEIR game. Maybe that's why we didn't play Big Boss in MGS V. By that point he's become one of THEM.

Not to take away from your point but this is even reinforced by MG2(yeah, I know most people never played it but stick with me here). As you go through the game, there's a constant theme of meeting people from the previous game who are now his enemy. The first boss is a ninja who was previously the resistance leader from the first game. The scientist Snake rescued in the first game? He's working for Big Boss willingly now to build another, better Metal Gear. Grey Fox, the FOXHOUND agent Snake was also sent in to find in Metal Gear(and who becomes the Cyborg Ninja in MGS), is now Big Bosses Dragon and attempts to kill Snake with a Metal Gear.

The common reason? They all felt screwed over by the people they were working for. The resistance leader was nearly killed when NATO bombed Outer Heaven at the end of MG(and didn't bother to warn anyone to evacuate), The scientist was pissed when he was forced to work on WMDs for the US after being rescued and Grey Fox felt betrayed by the government. And apparently Big Boss was there to welcome them into the fold (Although in retrospect he might have really tied a balloon to their ass and brainwashed them in his ocean base).

Snake Himself at the end of Metal Gear 2 pretty much implies he's done and presumably that's when he quits and runs up to Alaska to get as far away from having to go on missions ever again.

 

[MrCalavera_v1legacy]

Team Fortress 2 lore takes some crazy turns. But i'm not sure if it counts, since it's told entirely through comics, and is an aftertought to the original "two differently colored teams fight over gravel" setup.

 

[meiam]

KH is just a meme people bring forth. The parts of its plot that are convoluted are all background stuff you don't really need to pay attention to as you are playing the game. They're more stuff you notice later as you connect the dots. The wrong implication basically is that KH is so convoluted that you won't be able to follow what the hell is going on unless you play everything and write a master thesis on it, which is entirely wrong. KH is a game primarily made for kids and young teens, more so than practically every other square offering of the same production values. If it was this hard to get into a child who is likely coming into KH with KH3 in the current day would have no hope of enjoying the game, yet they still are making it as I describe, so clearly this isn't an issue.

I mean the story still did some massive shift that hard to reconcile without extra explanation (not saying that the extra explanation make it better). Like KH1 had a large arc about how the key blade was unique and Sora was the chosen one... but now there are millions of key blade and pretty much anyone can wield one. There's maybe 16 different version of Ansem running around, which can all be good or bad depending on the phase of the moon.

And ultimately the problem is that none of that bring anything to the story, nobody really cared whether Ansem was the reincarnation of some old guy, they just wanted a cool villain. But now playing KH3 will include mention to all the side project. Like how KH2 started following the event of chain of memory, which I'm pretty sure less than 20% of people who played KH2 even played. I was vaguely aware of what happened in chain of memory so it wasn't that much of an issue for me, but I imagine someone who didn't even know it existed must have been really confused. Now the problem is that between 2 and 3 there was something like 6 spin off that happened. How many people have any idea what happened in dream drop distance? Or even birth by sleep?

 

[sXeth]

Ultima. I don't know if I could do it justice with a short summary. From the appearances of space aliens, one of the big bads being a sentient computer, an entire game taking place in an alternate timeline and in our solar system instead of the game's main setting, several things that end up becoming plot points a half-dozen games later. To the poorly-delivered, but still interesting logic behind the final villain.


Might & Magic to a lesser extent. That mostly is just an odd dissonance between most of a game taking place on one fantasy world, but then the overarching setting of the series is a sci-fi one and the final chapter of each game suddenly morphs into aliens, spaceships, and so on.

 

[Chewster]

Any early stuff by Suda 51. Killer 7, I'm looking at you! Great game, still.

I haven't played it in ages but I always thought FF7 had a rather bizarre story too but I guess that is JRPGs for you. I should replay it for nostalgia's sake.

 

[sXeth]

I haven't played it in ages but I always thought FF7 had a rather bizarre story too but I guess that is JRPGs for you. I should replay it for nostalgia's sake.

Never found FF7 that hard to follow.

Weirdly paced, and prone to a ton of "this is the main character everyone is concerned with because we said so" in regards to Cloud and Sephiroth. (Avalanche abandons their actual victory to go help Cloud chase Sephiroth around the world, then none of the dozen people can apparently grasp the concept of not taking Cloud with them, which leads to Aeris running off like a teen in a horror movie to get killed by herself).

 

[Saelune]

Off the top of my head, Metal Gear has 8 games in the main series(The first two Metal Gear games, MGS 1-5 and Peace Walker). The side games don't seem to connect to the main series at all so those ca be discounted. THe main series jumps back and forth through time over the course of 50 years(1964-2014) with the beginning and endpoints being MGS3 and MGS4 and everything else somewhere in the middle of the timeline, but the plot twists and turns all over the place as the series goes on, certain things that start out simple become retconned into a huge conspiracy involving clones and then there's certain bits that are just never explained and verge on supernatural(Ocelot's clone arm). So the whole plot ends up being a bit convoluted and crazy.

The side games ABSOLUTELY connect. Metal Gear Solid 5 is more a sequel to Peace Walker than it is to MGS 3 or 4.


Seriously, Peace Walker is actually super important to the game series.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

It's been 17 posts and no one mentioned the Dark Souls games?

I LOVE those games, but holy shit is the plot and lore nonsense.

None of the games ever quite finish development, and From Software tends to craft the lore to fit the world that they created rather than the other way around. Areas and enemies constantly get shuffled around in development, and then a new story and lore gets constructed around it.

Why is the story so hard to understand? Because it was constantly being rewritten during development so when you're trying to fit the lore together you're fitting together pieces from a bunch of different unfinished story threads.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

It's been 17 posts and no one mentioned the Dark Souls games?

I LOVE those games, but holy shit is the plot and lore nonsense.

I'd say Souls is all lore and no plot, and I'd describe it as cryptic more than anything else. It's there if you feel like fact-checking the Wikia but the gist of it is you're the Chosen One and you're saving the world by killing monsters. You get the weirdo backstory to a boss or NPC if you look really hard but nothing that matters or factors into your quest. Even if you don't fully appreciate the depth of your actions you always understand what's going on and why, unlike with say MGS, KH or a Suda game.

 

[Dalisclock]

Off the top of my head, Metal Gear has 8 games in the main series(The first two Metal Gear games, MGS 1-5 and Peace Walker). The side games don't seem to connect to the main series at all so those ca be discounted. THe main series jumps back and forth through time over the course of 50 years(1964-2014) with the beginning and endpoints being MGS3 and MGS4 and everything else somewhere in the middle of the timeline, but the plot twists and turns all over the place as the series goes on, certain things that start out simple become retconned into a huge conspiracy involving clones and then there's certain bits that are just never explained and verge on supernatural(Ocelot's clone arm). So the whole plot ends up being a bit convoluted and crazy.

The side games ABSOLUTELY connect. Metal Gear Solid 5 is more a sequel to Peace Walker than it is to MGS 3 or 4.


Seriously, Peace Walker is actually super important to the game series.

Peace walker isn't a Side game. It's a mainline game that was originally released on a portable system and later ported to PS3.

I've read Kojima pretty much stated that Peace Walker would have been called MGS5 if it had originally been released on console and not Portable. Considering how tightly it links Snake Eater and Ground Zeros, not to mention how much Phantom Pain cribs from it, I have no reason to doubt this is true. Hell, going from Peace Walker to Phantom Pain made me realize how much Phantom Pain feels like a high rez remake of Peace Walker.....except a lot messier and incomplete.

And I totally agree, Peace Walker is important. Hell, MGSV pretty much picks up straight from Peace Walker. Otherwise you have no idea who Paz, Huey, Chico are, why Miller is hanging out with Big Boss, why they have a base in the middle of the ocean or what Cypher is(granted, you don't learn the name till the very end of Peace Walker). And then you have things like the AI pod from Peace Walker showing up in Huey's Lab in the main game(with Strangelove's corpse inside).

By side games I meant stuff like Metal Gear Ghost Babel, Metal Gear: Snakes Revenge, Metal Gear Acid, probably Metal Gear Portable Ops(that one is in a grey area since Peace Walker alludes to it once in this "Let us never Speak of it again" sort of way).

It's been 17 posts and no one mentioned the Dark Souls games?

I LOVE those games, but holy shit is the plot and lore nonsense.

I'd say Souls is all lore and no plot, and I'd describe it as cryptic more than anything else. It's there if you feel like fact-checking the Wikia but the gist of it is you're the Chosen One and you're saving the world by killing monsters. You get the weirdo backstory to a boss or NPC if you look really hard but nothing that matters or factors into your quest. Even if you don't fully appreciate the depth of your actions you always understand what's going on and why, unlike with say MGS, KH or a Suda game.

Yeah, I feel much the same way. The story any Souls Game is fairly simple. It just has a lot of really cryptic background Lore which is there if you want to dig into it. You can easily go through the games without really paying attention if you wanted to and be fine. In most cases, pretty much everything already happened before you showed up. You're just cleaning up the mess.