Movie, TV, Web Series, and Music Hot Take(s).

thebobmaster

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Out of curiosity, which movies have shown him putting emotion into his scenes?

Of all movies that I can think of, Batman and Robin. If you watch the scenes where he isn't hamming it up, and is instead reflecting on/mourning his wife, his emotions are actually pretty strong. While I haven't seen this one myself, I've also heard he did quite good in Maggie, which is more of a drama with zombies.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that movie Batman peaked with Batman & Robin.
 

BrawlMan

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The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that movie Batman peaked with Batman & Robin.
Considering how well it did in theaters you're not exactly wrong. Despite the dissonance, the movie made twice back its budget, which is even higher when you count in inflation.
 

Xprimentyl

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Heath Ledger is an overrated Joker who lacks the smooth of Romero, the proper gangster menace of Nicholson and the hilarious schemes of Hamil.
It's massively over-rated, and not nearly as clever as it tries to be, yeah.
Take the overall movie as you see fit, but there's no denying Ledger pulled of a genuinely disturbing and unpredictable Joker befitting the tone of the Dark Knight trilogy. My favorite story from the filming is the interaction between Heath Ledger and Maggie Gyllenhaal at Bruce Wayne's benefit party for Harvey Dent. Gyllenhaal's reaction was genuine as it was the first time she'd seen Ledger in full costume and character, and she was genuinely frightened. When an actor convinces another actor of their character and elicits real emotional responses, you done good.

TDK wasn't going for playful or comedy or even "superhero" movie by including the Joker; they were portrayals of classic comic characters in a much grittier, noire light. The Joker isn't the "joker" because he's comical; he's the Joker because he's wild and finds a twisted humor in the frailty of the human condition; that's why his makeup isn't pristine and why his plots involve lives and not power or money. In a film where the story has real stakes in play, no villain suited it better than one whose only tenant is chaos. Just saying, no one has to like The Dark Knight, but anyone who denies Ledger's Joker is just wrong.
 
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BrawlMan

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Take the overall movie as you see fit, but there's no denying Ledger pulled of a genuinely disturbing and unpredictable Joker befitting the tone of the Dark Knight trilogy. My favorite story from the filming is the interaction between Heath Ledger and Maggie Gyllenhaal at Bruce Wayne's benefit party for Harvey Dent. Gyllenhaal's reaction was genuine as it was the first time she'd seen Ledger in full costume and character, and she was genuinely frightened. When an actor convinces another actor of their character and elicits real emotional responses, you done good.

TDK wasn't going for playful or comedy or even "superhero" movie by including the Joker; they were portrayals of classic comic characters in a much grittier, noire light. The Joker isn't the "joker" because he's comical; he's the Joker because he's wild and finds a twisted humor in the frailty of the human condition; that's why his makeup isn't pristine and why his plots involve lives and not power or money. In a film where the story has real stakes in play, no villain suited it better than one whose only tenant is chaos. Just saying, no one has to like The Dark Knight, but anyone who denies Ledger's Joker is just wrong.
I remember during the early YT days, there were all these TDK "is not as good or sucks" videos that came out of wood work 2 weeks later. Most of them were shit, and they could not back up there arguments or kept "finding plot holes".
 
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Xprimentyl

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I remember during the early YT days, there were all these TDK "is not as good or sucks" videos that came out of wood work 2 weeks later. Most of them were shit, and they could not back up there arguments or kept "finding plot holes".
Here's the thing about plot holes: I challenge anyone to name a movie without them. You can delve into the most niggling details of basically any move and find something unrealistic or that doesn't make literal sense. People who comb through cinematic works simply to find the inconsistencies and "plot holes" are the biggest downers, but it somehow makes them feel superior, like they're in on something the blind masses are not. If that's why anyone watches movies, for that meaningless bit of pride, so be it; they're certainly going to be the life of ZERO parties.

I rarely care about the implausibility or improbability of events in a work of fiction because as far as I'm concerned, if it was written into a work of fiction... it happened for the purposes of that work of fiction. I may roll my eyes, but after that half a second reaction, I'm usually back on board. Obviously there are some more egregious infractions than others, but go with it or spend your life rolling your eyes every time a piece of entertainment doesn't conform to the reality most attempt to escape when consuming said entertainment.

Yes, in the Dark Knight, most of the Joker's schemes were highly unlikely and implausible; why was that line drawn after people signed up to watch a Bezos or Branson suit up in a costume and partake in acts of vigilante justice with entirely implausible gadgets, gizmos and ability?

Like I said, take The Dark Knight as you will, but knocking individual performances based on the context of the whole is too dismissive. Is Christian Bale the best Batman or even a good Batmen? I dunno; each to their own opinion when it comes to Batman on screen. I'm not a huge Batman fan, but Ledger's Joker as a character in a silo was incredible and carried that film as far as I'm concerned. I watched Batman Begins and was ok with it. It was a movie I saw; Scarecrow was not interesting or notable and Bale's Batman mostly grinded against my nerves with the put-on gravely voice. The Dark Knight Rises was another film I saw; Bane was not interesting or notable and Bale was still doing his version of Batman which after three films, I'd basically given the "alright, whatever" pass. The Dark Knight captivated me because I finally got to see a Joker that was true to the danger one might expect from the arch nemesis of one of the most iconic superheroes in comic-dom.
 
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happyninja42

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Ok, so Terminator gets a "pass," but what about Last Action Hero? Jingle All The Way? Twins? Predator? In no film wherein he's written as American (ostensibly by birth or by right) is he ever acknowledged to be an immigrant. Not saying it's a problem, just odd that no one ever wrote a script [that I'm aware of] that addresses his not-native status when his accent is about as iconic as his visage.
Because the simple fact is that Arnold is not an ACTOR. He's an entertainer. His acting skills are horrible, and almost non-existent. He isn't hired because of his emotional range and his ability to act his heart out, in a way that will leave the audiences weeping for generations. He is hired because he's a steroided out meatslab, that makes women (and some dudes too) get wet, and dudes wish they were him getting the women wet. He looks good when they slather him, shirtless, in oil, and give him a big penis, sorry gun, to point at people, while pyrotechnics go off in the background. He has a baseline charisma to him, that is like the epoxy glue of his personality, that helps carry his sub-par acting to massive monetary success.

Not saying he's a bad person, but he's not an actor, and much less a GOOD actor. There is a cost assessment that has to be considered, on whether anyone wants to spend part of their budget, to TRY (and likely fail) to get Arnold to voice lessons, to learn how to suppress his accent, much less adopt OTHER accents believably, or just say "fuck it, nobody cares that he always sounds Austrian, they're here to watch him shoot things and say one-liners."

And you can tell this, by pretty much all of his really good, successful films, that actually have him talking instead of shooting things, he gets paired up with someone with actual acting skills, who basically carry all the scenes. The heavy lifting of the acting, and Arnold just usually responds to things. In short sentences, that are fairly simplistic in nature. He's the straight man in the buddy pairing equation. I mean fuck, in Kindergarten Cop, that task is carried by a GROUP OF CHILDREN! Danny Devito did it in Twins, Edward Furlong did it, along with Linda Hamilton in T2, Carl Weathers in Predator, the kid in Last Action Hero (which I think is a criminally underrated film btw). Jamie Lee Curtis, and Tom Arnold in True Lies. The list goes on and on. THEY do the actual acting, saying the big, complicated sentences, emoting like a human, etc. Arnold just usually stands there and looks....I dunno...beefy and confused I guess.

Which, again, is FINE. I don't have a problem with him, but I don't consider him anything close to being an actor, and apparently he thinks so too.

 
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Xprimentyl

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Because the simple fact is that Arnold is not an ACTOR. He's an entertainer.
A distinction I've made about music on multiple occasions; artists and entertainers are completely different animals, the former being far more respectable at their craft.

My particular issue with Arnie is how his accent is nigh 100% dismissed. Like, If I were to watch a movie about a white father trying to find his black son; nothing about that is implausible, but at least nod to the fact the kid was adopted or assumed via a blended family. I know that sounds really backwoods, but Arnold's voice is so iconic, I find it hard to believe no one ever wrote a script wherein it was explained. True Lies is a very entertaining film, but the fact that this guy with a "fresh off the boat" accent being that entangled with the US' international covert operations and his nationality not being a "thing" feels, I dunno... disingenuous?

Maybe I'm not "woke" enough, but I've harbored this question for decades, long preceding woke culture. Just saying, give me one Arnie movie where they acknowledge his Austrian heritage so his accent doesn't feel out of place insofar as no one has to wonder why this "American" hero sounds like a foreigner who learned English two weeks before filming started.

Don't get me wrong; I love Arnold and a lot of his movies shaped my youth, but dude, your accent brings up a lot of questions that Hollywood has been content not to address. Maybe it IS the muscles?
 
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AnxietyProne

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Heath Ledger played a very intriguing, awesomely acted, and disturbing villain.

It was, however, a lousy JOKER.

(edit: Okay, the scene of him wordlessly waving his arms in frustration before the hospital blew up was VERY Joker, but that's it.)
 
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BrawlMan

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Here's the thing about plot holes: I challenge anyone to name a movie without them. You can delve into the most niggling details of basically any move and find something unrealistic or that doesn't make literal sense. People who comb through cinematic works simply to find the inconsistencies and "plot holes" are the biggest downers, but it somehow makes them feel superior, like they're in on something the blind masses are not. If that's why anyone watches movies, for that meaningless bit of pride, so be it; they're certainly going to be the life of ZERO parties.
This mentality still has not died down when comes to the Nolan Batman films, except it's slightly changed in the other directions. The ones who started it with TDK, their channel either died down, shut down, quit, or and in one case, unfortunately died. While most people like Rises, it's critics on the Internet: Movie Bob, Honest Trailers, Cinema Sins, RLM, and Channel Awesome (before the collapse)/Doug Walker who calls any one who likes the third movie idiots, mindless "fan-boys/girls" or sheep(ple), etc. Like any of them have the right to talk. The movie is flawed, but if you call it bad movie or one of the worst films of all time, then clearly you have not seen a lot of bad ones out there. They can all fuck off, but especially Channel Awesome as a whole CS, and MB.

Not saying he's a bad person, but he's not an actor, and much less a GOOD actor. There is a cost assessment that has to be considered, on whether anyone wants to spend part of their budget, to TRY (and likely fail) to get Arnold to voice lessons, to learn how to suppress his accent, much less adopt OTHER accents believably, or just say "fuck it, nobody cares that he always sounds Austrian, they're here to watch him shoot things and say one-liners."
I disagree. While he is an entertainer (and that is how he sees himself), I consider him a good actor, Not the best, not bad, nor the worst. Arnie has his moments, and strengths and weaknesses like any other. It's a matter of who is directing him or understands his strengths and where he lacks. While starting off rough, he did not take him long to improve. If you think I'm being soft on him, wait until you meet my parents.
 

happyninja42

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A distinction I've made about music on multiple occasions; artists and entertainers are completely different animals, the former being far more respectable at their craft.
Yep, that's my stance when it comes to my enjoyment of Limp Bizkit. I enjoy their music, but I don't consider them like really deep musicians. They are more entertainers. But I enjoy their songs, and they were a fun band to see live in concert.

My particular issue with Arnie is how his accent is nigh 100% dismissed. Like, If I were to watch a movie about a white father trying to find his black son; nothing about that is implausible, but at least nod to the fact the kid was adopted or assumed via a blended family. I know that sounds really backwoods, but Arnold's voice is so iconic, I find it hard to believe no one ever wrote a script wherein it was explained. True Lies is a very entertaining film, but the fact that this guy with a "fresh off the boat" accent being that entangled with the US' international covert operations and his nationality not being a "thing" feels, I dunno... disingenuous?

Maybe I'm not "woke" enough, but I've harbored this question for decades, long preceding woke culture. Just saying, give me one Arnie movie where they acknowledge his Austrian heritage so his accent doesn't feel out of place insofar as no one has to wonder why this "American" hero sounds like a foreigner who learned English two weeks before filming started.

Don't get me wrong; I love Arnold and a lot of his movies shaped my youth, but dude, your accent brings up a lot of questions that Hollywood has been content not to address. Maybe it IS the muscles?
Eh, for me, I just don't care about that kind of detail. I am apparently in a weird minority of movie goers, and consumers of entertainment, that I am fine with a higher level of "non-realism" in my movies/tv. Mostly it boils down to the realities of the actual humans playing these roles. Learning to get rid of, or learn a new accent, is NOT easy. It takes a LOT of work, and training, and even then, a lot of the time, people still don't get it right, and we see YT vids of people shitting on someone's accent in a film. Or complaining about how this actor isn't muscly enough for the source material, or whatever, forgetting the fact that the kind of body alterations needed to try and look like a fucking comic book character are 1. Unrealistic as fuck, and 2. Unhealthy for any actual human to try and maintain. Seriously the shit actors do, to look all ripped and swol for a film, like water starvation, are dangerous as fuck. Do we REALLY need to see the vein definition in someone's bicep to enjoy the film, and believe he's throwing a fucking car that's all CGI anyway?

For me, stuff like "Yeah but Arnold always sounds like Arnold" kind of fall into that category. Arnold is not a good actor, and the amount of effort it would probably take for him to lose that accent (and possibly adopt a new one for a role, and then a different one for another role) is just unrealistic. He's an action star, from an era where nobody REALLY cared about the plot, or the dialogue, they just wanted big guns, big pecs, and big explosions.

I disagree. While he is an entertainer (and that is how he sees himself), I consider him a good actor, Not the best, not bad, nor the worst. Arnie has his moments, and strengths and weaknesses like any other. It's a matter of who is directing him or understands his strengths and where he lacks. While starting off rough, he did not take him long to improve. If you think I'm being soft on him, wait until you meet my parents.
Like I said, I LIKE Arnold for the most part. I even consider several of his films to be personal favorites. Last Action Hero is a great film, and a fun deconstruction of the very genre that made Arnold famous. But I don't think he's a good actor. I think he is a subpar actor, that has a lot of other qualities, that help make up for that lack, and has allowed him to maintain a successful career. Which is fine. I don't like everything he's done, and I don't think a lot of his films hold up with time. But I also acknowledge that, given the literal millions of people who are in acting as a career, there are tons of subpar actors out there. I'm fine with that. I don't need every actor in every film ever, to be gunning for that Oscar. Just be good enough for the role your in, and entertain me within the context of the film, and I'm fine.
 

Gordon_4

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Take the overall movie as you see fit, but there's no denying Ledger pulled of a genuinely disturbing and unpredictable Joker befitting the tone of the Dark Knight trilogy. My favorite story from the filming is the interaction between Heath Ledger and Maggie Gyllenhaal at Bruce Wayne's benefit party for Harvey Dent. Gyllenhaal's reaction was genuine as it was the first time she'd seen Ledger in full costume and character, and she was genuinely frightened. When an actor convinces another actor of their character and elicits real emotional responses, you done good.

TDK wasn't going for playful or comedy or even "superhero" movie by including the Joker; they were portrayals of classic comic characters in a much grittier, noire light. The Joker isn't the "joker" because he's comical; he's the Joker because he's wild and finds a twisted humor in the frailty of the human condition; that's why his makeup isn't pristine and why his plots involve lives and not power or money. In a film where the story has real stakes in play, no villain suited it better than one whose only tenant is chaos. Just saying, no one has to like The Dark Knight, but anyone who denies Ledger's Joker is just wrong.
The only problem is that for my money, The Dark Knight got a little too into its own gritty noir and realness. Like it set the tone well enough at the start - Nolan gives Mann a run for his money with that bank robbery - that if you go in without context you’d think you’re watching a movie like Heat or the Departed. And then suddenly Batman shows up and I’m left tilting my head a bit. There is no reason the Joker shouldn’t have been shot dead by any number of guards at that meeting of Gotham’s mob bosses. Gamble not having more than two men present when the bounty he’s put out is being claimed by a bunch of street punks is ludicrous for any responsible gangster. Or that bomb the Joker implanted in his goon not being discovered because apparently prisoners are not searched or examined before being processed in the Gotham PD - although that one IS plausible to a point.

Like if you cut out Batman and made the movie about Jim Gordon, Harvey Dent and the Joker you’d have had an excellent crime thriller carried by three really compelling performances. Batman just…..doesn’t fit in the movie when I try to rewatch it.
 
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Thaluikhain

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After seeing Disney's Descendants, how was this the franchise that killed Ever After High? C'mon.
 

MrCalavera

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Here's my hot take: Saying that Heath Ledger's Joker is "overrated" was a lukewarm take at best, back in 2010 :^)

Also, a bit more topical one: People still caring about Space Jam in 2020 comes down solely to the nostalgic stuff that orbits(pun intended) around it, rather than the movie itself - Jordan Era basketball, Come on and Slam, the OG Space Jam website - all these 90s throwbacks. It was never a good movie on itself. Space Jam 2 is neither, but 20 years from now people still might remember it fondly, because of that one tik tok post, or whatever.
 
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Gordon_4

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Here's my hot take: Saying that Heath Ledger's Joker is "overrated" was a lukewarm take at best, back in 2010 :^)

Also, a bit more topical one: People still caring about Space Jam in 2020 comes down solely to the nostalgic stuff that orbits(pun intended) around it, rather than the movie itself - Jordan Era basketball, Come on and Slam, the OG Space Jam website - all these 90s throwbacks. It was never a good movie on itself. Space Jam 2 is neither, but 20 years from now people still might remember it fondly, because of that one tik tok post, or whatever.
Space Jam was possibly one of the most nakedly commercial things to ever exist. Yet it seemed to own that and as such I can't help but have some respect for it.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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Nothing of value will ever happen in any Disney Plus show that can't be handwaved or explained with a couple of lines in the next MCU movie because Disney can't afford to alienate the larger base of moviegoers that don't shell out for their streaming service sideshow, which is designed to hold the pattern anyway.

At the same time their movie output deliberately apes TV's serialized content by molding it into seasons/phases with poignant finales/Avengers movies and pointless midseason filler that nobody would watch if it didn't promise to be of vital importance to the understanding and appreciation of the next episode/movie. Which it isn't.
 
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Xprimentyl

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Heath Ledger played a very intriguing, awesomely acted, and disturbing villain.

It was, however, a lousy JOKER.

(edit: Okay, the scene of him wordlessly waving his arms in frustration before the hospital blew up was VERY Joker, but that's it.)
Lousy in that he wasn't a point-for-point recreation of the comic book caricature of a super villain? Fine; he was not that. I'd argue THAT Joker is less interesting by orders of magnitude than what Ledger gave us. Remove Batman's strict no-kill policy, and you've got a clown prince that is literally a joke and more an inconvenience than a threat. That character has never been interesting. Ledger's Joker was interesting because he was always the only one laughing, a true psychopath who didn't bother with a tossed-on British accent, fancy clothes and desires for power and control; Ledger was simply insane and desired nothing save for chaos, and it was a lot more intriguing to watch. If you want comic book Joker, Ledger wasn't that, but if you want true, incomprehensibly disturbed villain in a film, Ledger WAS that and fit perfectly in the noire take the Nolan films were going for.

The only problem is that for my money, The Dark Knight got a little too into its own gritty noir and realness. Like it set the tone well enough at the start - Nolan gives Mann a run for his money with that bank robbery - that if you go in without context you’d think you’re watching a movie like Heat or the Departed. And then suddenly Batman shows up and I’m left tilting my head a bit. There is no reason the Joker shouldn’t have been shot dead by any number of guards at that meeting of Gotham’s mob bosses. Gamble not having more than two men present when the bounty he’s put out is being claimed by a bunch of street punks is ludicrous for any responsible gangster. Or that bomb the Joker implanted in his goon not being discovered because apparently prisoners are not searched or examined before being processed in the Gotham PD - although that one IS plausible to a point.

Like if you cut out Batman and made the movie about Jim Gordon, Harvey Dent and the Joker you’d have had an excellent crime thriller carried by three really compelling performances. Batman just…..doesn’t fit in the movie when I try to rewatch it.
But that's what they were going for. With the deluge of hero films preceding and coming in the wake of the Nolan Batman films, it at least tried to be something different, taking familiar characters, and instead of saying "remember this from comics and cartoons?", they challenged us to observe what true psychopathy and violence from a mad genius might look like. I'll fault no one for not liking the Nolan Batman films; to each their own. But in a vacuum removed from "what Batman is supposed to be," The Dark Knight was an excellent film, and Ledger's Joker one of the more notable antagonists in the last couple of decades. We can agree that Batman was probably the most out-of-place character in his own movie, but as the antithesis to The Joker, he kinda had to be there.

TL;DR? The Dark Knight may not have been a great Batman film, but it was an exceptional Joker film.