MovieBob's thoughts on the ME3 ending controversy

[Callate]

After Ken Levine's weighing in on the possibility of Bioware amending ME3, I wrote

Congratulations, now there's overwrought sentiments on both sides of the issue.

Apparently I should have waited on that comment. Bob's response makes Levine's look about as overwrought as a recitation of warehouse inventory.

...Ah.

You know, there are times I really enjoy Bob Chipman's work, whether it's as "MovieBob" or "The Game Overthinker" or... whatever you would call him when he does "The Big Picture". Just "Bob" I guess? Annnyway... He can be clever, witty, insightful, thoughtful, knowledgeable.

But sometimes, it just seems like he gets in a snit about something and pulls out all the stops, vilifying anyone who disagrees with his point of view, dismissing any legitimate claims or ideas they might have or conjuring strawmen in their place, making absolutist statements about what a medium needs or a genre needs or a series needs, displaying these immense blind spots and prejudices seemingly without ever doubling back to say, "Whoa, did I write that?"

I'm far from coming down on one side of the ME3 "issue"; I'm not really in a good position to do so. But I don't think the topic is getting clearer or more mature for a critic deigning to thunder from on high about what the mindless plebians are doing to the face of art.

 

[mrtenk]

This whole conflict has risen to the point where this is not just a question about artistic integrity, it's a question about videogames as a medium and how users and developers approach them.

I think it's a positive step forward for the industry, because not only does the feedback show an enormous amount of dedication from the fans, but it gives the developers at Bioware perspective on how to improve projects in the future. That could include future DLC for Mass Effect 3, or upcoming Bioware titles.

If Bioware feels it is necessary to improve there own game, more power too them. Thanks to todays technology they can do that. Given all the time they probably have to put together some decent DLC, I look forward to what the future holds. Sorry Bob, but I think you're dead wrong on this one.

 

[Hal10k]

If somebody tells me they're going to paint a beach, and they hand me a painting of blue water with some white canvas, am i holding the medium of painting back by asking for him to add the sand on the beach? (Keeping in mind that there is still white on the canvas for him to add the sand)

This actually brings up a good point about this whole deal that makes it distinct from most other forms of the mighty retcon. Video games are one of the few mediums where you can release an altered version of a product and expect the majority of your audience to receive it with almost no hassle or wait, or even having to replace their old version of the product in any meaningful way. The canvas always has some white space left, so to speak. It opens up new avenues for response to criticism, for better or worse.

 

[LokiArchetype]

I'm not sure how he's in any position to call anyone else a crybaby when you can just imagine the tears welling up in his eyes as he's typing out those messages. It's a pretty hollow insult that lacks any self awareness when you whine about what whiners other people are being.

The game's deadline had a far greater impact on the content of the ending, so why doesn't that financially motivated factor compromise Bioware's artistic integrity?

The basic message is, apparently - It's totally okay for investors to influence game design because they think they know what will appeal to the consumer base, but it destroys art if the consumer themselves influence game design.

lolwut.

Games are both art and a consumer product. Money will always influence their development.

Deal with it.

 

[Leo Meier]

i can understand his reasoning even as a mass effect fan

 

[KAPTAINmORGANnWo4life]

Fantastic. Just Fan-fucking-tastic. And Fallout 3 loses the great mood, setting, and the dozens and dozens of great narratives in it because Bethesda's publisher didn't jerk them around and they were able to respond to fans' feedback on the game.


To all of you people who are in favour of a change to the ending: This is what it's like to be a believer in God on the Internet. Gang-rape warfare. People who you both agree with and respect most of the time honing in on one issue of importance to you and obliterating you on a personal level for daring to express a different viewpoint than theirs. They lump everybody in your category together, despite the fact that there are many different manifestations of it, then savagely insult you when you come back with facts either shortening the pedestal they're on or attempting to keep the discussion civil.


I've lost Destructoid, Kotaku, and IGN to this mess. I've been put against one of my personal favourite Internet gaming figures, Adam Sessler. I watch Jim Sterling, Bob, Yahtzee, and even many YouTube and Games Radar content through a filter now that I know they think people who have this one common notion are less than them. In less than a month, I've gone from nearly 20 well-respected pieces of gaming media to identify with, to one. Exactly one. So that's it. I'm done. I'm not arguing these points anymore, I'm not seeking neutral ground. I'm taking my God damn ball and going home. I'd say it's been fun, but it hasn't, Escapist.


One more thing:

I think I know why the Escapist is so sympathetic to the cause of a publisher fucking a developer of content around concurrently with a dip in the quality of their ARTISTIC, PRODUCT.

 

[Risingblade]

Wow Bob sounds like a whiny little *****...oh the irony


Bah ME3's ending wasn't art it was a fill in the bubble >.>

 

[Zhukov]

This just in:

Script changes based on test screenings setting the medium of film back decades.

That would be a clever analogy if test screenings for a movie and a released game weren't very different things, considering the entire purpose of a test screening is to see if changes need to be made.

Irrelevant.

My point is that they improve their product by making changes based on audience reaction, by "caving in" to the "crybabies". Yet somehow they aren't setting their medium back DECADES by doing so.

 

[JoesshittyOs]

If DaVinci had drawn a mustache on the Mona Lisa, I probably would have put up an outcry for him to take off the mustache (not really though, that would actually have been awesome)

Point is, art can suck. And they just so happen to charge money for this "art". A lot of money.

And he just chose the wrong side of this argument. I wonder what the backlash is gonna be.

 

[Sentox6]

If somebody tells me they're going to paint a beach, and they hand me a painting of blue water with some white canvas, am i holding the medium of painting back by asking for him to add the sand on the beach? (Keeping in mind that there is still white on the canvas for him to add the sand)

That would also be a clever analogy if the game didn't have an ending, but it obviously did, you just didn't like it. If they painted a beach and then you demanded that he repaint it because you want it to be different to suit your opinions, then you'd be on the right track.

You're way off base here. The point, as I reiterated several times, is not about subjective preference for the ending.

A more accurate analogy would be if somebody told HalfTangible they were going to paint a busy beach full of people, and the resulting painting was of an empty paddling pool next to a gravel pit. Because this quote is pretty undeniable:

This story arc is coming to an end with this game. That means the endings can be a lot more different. At this point we?re taking into account so many decisions that you?ve made as a player and reflecting a lot of that stuff. It?s not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in them.

We got the exact opposite of this.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

This just in:

Script changes based on test screenings setting the medium of film back decades.

This. Also, many of our old art treasures (like, you know, Mona Lisa, most of what Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Wagner etc. wrote, almost all of Raphael's and Michelangelo's sculptures and paintings and so on into infinity) were commission jobs. That means someone paid the artist to make the final product just like the commissioner wanted. If the buyer wasn't happy with how Mona Lisa smiled or how Eine Kleine Nachtmusik sounded, then Da Vinci and Mozart had to go back and change it up. If the church wasn't happy with the ceiling decoration in the sistine chapel, Michelangelo had to go back up there and make adjustments.

This notion that "true art is never changed because of criticism" and the idea that "true art is an uninterrupted personal process" are both fairly recent inventions and most of what we consider classical art would not fall within either category. Artists throughout the ages have been very pragmatical and have altered their masterpieces to fit their client, because even they had to eat.

So really, the eventual alteration of ME3's ending is not the killing blow to the concept of games as art.

 

[HalfTangible]

This just in:

Script changes based on test screenings setting the medium of film back decades.

That would be a clever analogy if test screenings for a movie and a released game weren't very different things, considering the entire purpose of a test screening is to see if changes need to be made.

Yes and... Thankye kindly for reminding me of that Penny Arcade strip! That one needs to be posted in all threads someone says "don't change ME3 because it's AAWRRT!".

because such views are silly, you see.

Yes, they are silly, which is exactly why people aren't saying that (outside of hyperbole in arguments against people who defend the ending).

If somebody tells me they're going to paint a beach, and they hand me a painting of blue water with some white canvas, am i holding the medium of painting back by asking for him to add the sand on the beach? (Keeping in mind that there is still white on the canvas for him to add the sand)

That would also be a clever analogy if the game didn't have an ending, but it obviously did, you just didn't like it. If they painted a beach and then you demanded that he repaint it because you want it to be different to suit your opinions, then you'd be on the right track.

A) We were told we wouldn't have an A B or C ending and all our choices would play out in the final conflict. They did not, and we did get an ABC ending. So... I guess a more apt analogy would be if the water were pink and i asked him to make it blue and add a beach.

B) it's perfectly plausible to just add to what you already have with a game with DLC - there's little need to rewrite the entierty of the Catalyst ending (though we'd like them to). In fact, that's one theory about what will be done: we'll get some scenes to show our war assets play out. The catalyst was crap but he would've been excuseable if we had seen our war assets play out ( i wanna see a Geth fighting with Quarians, dangit! xP ) which we did not.

C) with DLC, this is much, MUCH easier to fix than a sliced canvas or a pink ocean =P

(The missing beach in this case would be war assets playing out in the final conflict - the pink ocean would be the ending as is, which has a complete lack of closure.)

 

[BarbaricGoose]

I don't feel like getting into a huge debate right now, but I do wanna say this: it's hard to make an intelligent argument when you're limited to 140 characters.

You're responding to something he said on Twitter, and you're using more than 140 characters--that's kind of unfair. I don't think Twitter should be used for anything other than telling people what food you just ate. Point is, don't take what he said TOO seriously. Not because he doesn't mean it, but because he was forced to say it in 140 characters. If you wanna get into an argument with him, maybe wait until he does an article about it. Or email him or something?

Or, you know, respond to him on Twitter. A debate about art on Twitter--that is something I would pay money to see.

 

[Formica Archonis]

Congratulations, "Mass Effect" crybabies. You've officially set the entire medium back a DECADE as an art form

Sorry, not possible. Between Metroid Other M and Duke Nukem Forever, we're already back before suffrage, and there wasn't any video games back then.

Also, Bioware? SHAME on you for caving. You've chosen to make coloring books instead of The Mona Lisa.

*Blinks.* Okay, I admit the fanboy agonizing from both sides has been silly. But that? That's pure fanboy right there. That's what I heard from the Trekkies-that-other-Trekkies-avoid when that last TNG-era movie sucked. And it was just as stupid then. It's a space opera. It had a lame ending. It sucks for the fans who are disappointed, and the debate's been... interesting... but it's not the end of the world. Screaming nonsensically at Bioware about the ending is as stupid as... well, screaming nonsensically at Bioware about the ending!

<IMG SRC="http://s91291220.onlinehome.us/formica/worstpossiblething.jpg" align=right width=256 height=170>

This is the WORST thing that has happened to gaming since Sega abandoned consoles.

Please tell me I'm not the only one imaging Bob dragging a couch onscreen to throw himself on.

How many more times do I need to explain that this has NOTHING to do with whether or not you "liked" the ending?

...

...

I'm sorry, could someone explain that sentence to me? I can't snark it if I can't understand it.

if your going to accept a game as ONLY a "product" then yes. But that means we CANNOT ask anyone to take gaming "seriously."

Art as product ain't art? Ever hear of "patronage", which is art in exchange for money or board or something else and the basis for most of "fine art"? So the entire Sistine Chapel isn't art, because Michelangelo only did it under the patronage of the Pope?

Look, a medium can produce ART or it can produce PRODUCT. If games can be changed at the whims of fanboys, then they are just product and we have no right to demand that Ebert etc take them (or US) "seriously."

Not Ebert again. Can we stop beating that particular dead horse? The man's as relevant to video games as Henry Kissinger. Demanding he take games seriously was stupid then, it's stupid now, and NOT for that reason.

And a medium can produce both. Funny that a movie critic would forget that Citizen Kane, Ernest Scared Stupid and Debbie Does Dallas are all parts of the same medium.

Gods, I've been getting more and more annoyed with MovieBob lately but this is it. I'm sorry, the man's a loon.

 

[Phlakes]

This just in:

Script changes based on test screenings setting the medium of film back decades.

That would be a clever analogy if test screenings for a movie and a released game weren't very different things, considering the entire purpose of a test screening is to see if changes need to be made.

Irrelevant.

My point is that they improve their product by making changes based on audience reaction, by "caving in" to the "crybabies". Yet somehow they aren't setting their medium back DECADES by doing so.

No, it is relevant. You can't deny that there's a difference between showing something for the sake of finding things to improve and releasing something as a complete, finished product and then changing it. I'm not saying Movie Bob is right, just that test screenings are much different territory.

 

[gundamrx101]

This coming from the guy that claims Other M made Samus a "deep and sympathetic character" ignoring how stereo typically bland she actually was. Art my ass. Journey is art. Mass Effect was based on CAUSE AND EFFECT. Hence the title. I love how these critics and game designers are missing the point on why fans are upset. It has nothing to do with art, or tragedy. It's about a developer promising one thing and doing a 180 turn off a fucking cliff.

 

[VoidWanderer]

Yeah, this is why I generally stray away from MovieBob. His opinions are laughable and simply not worth giving attention to. That goes for both his thoughts on games and movies.

Congratulations, "Mass Effect" crybabies. You've officially set the entire medium back a DECADE as an art form

Also, Bioware? SHAME on you for caving. You've chosen to make coloring books instead of The Mona Lisa.

This is the WORST thing that has happened to gaming since Sega abandoned consoles.

How many more times do I need to explain that this has NOTHING to do with whether or not you "liked" the ending?

if your going to accept a game as ONLY a "product" then yes. But that means we CANNOT ask anyone to take gaming "seriously."

Look, a medium can produce ART or it can produce PRODUCT. If games can be changed at the whims of fanboys, then they are just product and we have no right to demand that Ebert etc take them (or US) "seriously."

Yeah, because we all know Bioware and EA are dedicated to making art first and money later, right?

And asking someone to take gaming seriously? What does taking gaming seriously even mean? That some random people who will never play a video game in their life look at them and say "Oh, yeah, this is impressive art and totally legit and I love it and hurrrr"? OH MY GOD, A FILM CRITIC DOESNT KNOW SHIT ABOUT GAMES??? WHATEVER SHALL WE DO??? OF COURSE HE DOESNT, HES A FUCKING FILM CRITIC!!! FILM!!!! Maybe just not care since it doesnt fucking matter? I mean, people swear random piles of dirt can be classified as deep and meaningful art, but when I look at it I say "Yep, its dirt". Funnily enough, none of the people into that kind of stuff seem to care. Why? Because I have no interest in it, no knowledge of it, and am thus neither qualified to talk about it nor worth listening to. And that does not hinder their enjoyment of said piles of dirt. Unlike MovieBob, however, there are some other things I know a bit about.

Heres a question for all you artsy geniuses out there, what is more immature:

1) A community complaining about a stories ending in a rather rabid fashion or

2) Spending every waking moment lecturing other people on your personal interests because you cannot, you just CANNOT enjoy something without knowing a majority of people are no longer indifferent on the subject?

If you are so fucking concerned about immaturity you should take a look in the mirror. A long, hard one. People like MovieBob are acting like children and then insulting others.

So MovieBob, I hope you are reading this. Maybe it will finally hammer some sense into your head, although I doubt it, since you are so far gone the way back has been lost. If gaming wants to be a big boy its needs to distance itself from people like you, because you make the lot look of us like a bunch of whiny cunts begging for the approval of the horde. And as we all know, that is rather childish behavior. Having strong feelings is not.

... While forcing myself to read this opinion, I am curious as to how little you know about MovieBob.

You do know he has another weekly web show, right? It's on Screwattack.com. It's called 'The Game Over Thinker'.

Also from what I can understand about the ending debacle, is that it's not that the endings were bad, but more nonsensical. I understand where people get those opinions and I was confused by some of them, but it wasn't THAT bad. It could've been a lot worse.

 

[Sonic Doctor]

(Clap...clap...clap!) That was so beautiful MovieBob. I totally agree with you, really with all this, how can people looking at us from the outside take us seriously...they can't because as you said, "crybabies".

There have been times I didn't agree with MovieBob, but this is just pure gold and I couldn't agree more.

 

[Darkmantle]

(Clap...clap...clap!) That was so beautiful MovieBob. I totally agree with you, really with all this, how can people looking at us from the outside take us seriously...they can't because as you said, "crybabies".

There have been times I didn't agree with MovieBob, but this is just pure gold and I couldn't agree more.

Yeah, just like how movies had a tough time being considered art because of all the crybabies (including good ole bob here) who watched and complained about the SW prequels eh?

And all those entitled readers who pressured sir Arthur Conan Doyle to ret-con holmes back into existence, man, those guys almost destroyed books as an art form, we almost only have picture books for YEARS.


There are many valid arguments for not changing the ME3 ending.

This is not one of them.