Mr Plinkett Last Jedi Review

crimson5pheonix

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Addendum_Forthcoming said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Poe is part of the crew and yes, modern military doctrine is to have everyone from the generals to the grunts know the strategy and tactical plans. And if he still mutinied at that point, there'd be no way to blame Holdo and it wouldn't be any worse than what did happen. Using hindsight is a bit unfair, but Holdo is a fascist anyway.
That's patently false. 'Grunts' are given a debrief of the theatre. Battlefield conditions. Likely opposition. Composition of enemy forces in theatre. Assignment of roles. The nature of the fight. Intelligence on enemy movements. A rundown of possible engagement sectors.

They aren't given a total run down of strategy. Mainly because that is well above their paygrade, and military operations are often planned for years. Besides, it's not even in your job detail. It's the commander's top priority to guarantee the safety and security of their soldiers in the pursuit of victory in the field.
I'm pretty sure the grunts are told why their particular operation is useful to the overall strategy. But in any case, the escape plan is a tactical one and would most definitely be shared with the crew even if their lives didn't immediately depend on that plan.

Holdo, if she survived, will only have been thinking about how many letters she would have to give a personal spin on to family members of the deceased summed up as; "One of my pilots got your child killed while disobeying an order. Soz."
I doubt that since there was no way off the planet they were going to.

This is what makes Luke Skywalker's actions on Endor so utterly fucked up ... but apparently no one seems to bring up his gross immorality of surrendering to enemy forces before the fight even begins... If people still get shot for gross dereliction of duty, Luke Skywalker is a candidate.

Imagine him trying to explain himself to a Rebel court-martial.

"Hey ... like ... you know. I think my old man detected our presence approaching the moon, so I decided to talk to him prior the battle."

"Wait -- you engaged with enemy officers for a chat, after jeopardizing the operation, and in the process were captured--?"

"Well ... not so much captured as surrendered..."

"Wait--Okay, no. I literally can't think of any possible thing you can say to assuage what I'm feeling right now."

Yet conspicuously that is never brought up...
I mean, Star Wars has always been on some level dumb. It's only now trying to pretend logistics and conduct matter.
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

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crimson5pheonix said:
I'm pretty sure the grunts are told why their particular operation is useful to the overall strategy. But in any case, the escape plan is a tactical one and would most definitely be shared with the crew even if their lives didn't immediately depend on that plan.
That only assumes they're actually planning maneuvers. Poe had his command authority to engage hostiles directly countermanded. That alone will buy him a trip to the brig. The fact that Holdo keeps him around is a mercy born likely of the fact that he is gifted, and one of her few combat pilots remaining. The fact of the matter is that I wouldn't stand to want to be in the same room as him. Much less stroke his overblown fucking ego... the fact that he goes on once more to prove he's unworthy of her trust should imply only that he deserved nothing but contempt.

No ... commanders are not expected to waste time catering to the egos of the insubordinate.

The fact of the matter is if he was a good little soldier like he should have been the Resistance would have been in a better shape. Basically Poe's saving grace at the end was simply that he was willing to make a last, desperate attack ... exhausting all possibilities. Beyond that, Poe is riddled with failures of his own designs.

I doubt that since there was no way off the planet they were going to.
Arguably she didn't know that the other allied parties would not send assistance by this point. Moreover, Leia was incapacitated ... so what else did she have but her orders and her grasp of the strategic situation? She was presented a no win situation without any real nuances of a conventional victory without assistance. In the end she tried to live up to that singular priority above all of treating the lives of her soldiers with utmost care in the pursuit of victory. And she fulfils that role admirably... at least until Poe tarnished what would be her final actions.

That's the thing ... Holdo lives up to the remit of her office.

Poe does not.

I mean, Star Wars has always been on some level dumb. It's only now trying to pretend logistics and conduct matter.
But it's always been a collection of movies with frankly bullshit ideas of black and white morality.

Like if Luke Skywalker's utter contempt for his responsibilities and upstanding conduct is reflective of the 'path to being a Jedi' ... maybe they should forbid Jedi ever holding political and military positions...?

Like, fuck me ... imagine how awesome Palpatine would have been as the Chancellor if he just said. "Look, I'm significantly limiting the powers of the Jedi. They spy on people, they're training child soldiers, they have access to deadly weapons ... Really, it's kind of fucked up. So here on the Jedi will be relegated purely to spiritual roles with no outstanding powers related beyond theology and its instruction."

Boom!

Imagine the Jedi bursting into your office and trying to murder you over that?

How fucking phenomenal would that be? It would be great. Imagine the jedi trying to accuse you of being a Sith because you took away their secret religious police powers and because they are deemed an illegitimate environment for the education of minors?

"I am already arranging for the transports so these children can be reunited with their families. Housed and compensated at my own personal cost. Until such time they can make suitable arrangements if they choose to depart Coruscant. No longer on religious grounds will we allow the private recruitment of these children to be trained and exposed to such barbaric, backwards practices such as to spy on their fellow citizenry, or even kill them whenever religious values and orders of the Jedi demand it ... The Republic will no longer stand for superstitions undermining our inalienable rights as people protected by the law..."

Why didn't Palpatine just do that?

Easy ... because morality is black and white, and because Star Wars is inherently dumb.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Addendum_Forthcoming said:
crimson5pheonix said:
I'm pretty sure the grunts are told why their particular operation is useful to the overall strategy. But in any case, the escape plan is a tactical one and would most definitely be shared with the crew even if their lives didn't immediately depend on that plan.
That only assumes they're actually planning maneuvers. Poe had his command authority to engage hostiles directly countermanded. That alone will buy him a trip to the brig. The fact that Holdo keeps him around is a mercy born likely of the fact that he is gifted, and one of her few combat pilots remaining. The fact of the matter is that I wouldn't stand to want to be in the same room as him. Much less stroke his overblown fucking ego... the fact that he goes on once more to prove he's unworthy of her trust should imply only that he deserved nothing but contempt.

No ... commanders are not expected to waste time catering to the egos of the insubordinate.

The fact of the matter is if he was a good little soldier like he should have been the Resistance would have been in a better shape. Basically Poe's saving grace at the end was simply that he was willing to make a last, desperate attack ... exhausting all possibilities. Beyond that, Poe is riddled with failures of his own designs.
So he should never question his commander's orders nor expect his commander to explain their reasoning? "Your job is to follow orders, not question them". I like the new fascist regime.

But in any case, it's not "catering to ego", it's "maintaining morale and preventing soldiers from accidentally undermining your plans". Because lo and behold, that's exactly what happens.

I doubt that since there was no way off the planet they were going to.
Arguably she didn't know that the other allied parties would not send assistance by this point. Moreover, Leia was incapacitated ... so what else did she have but her orders and her grasp of the strategic situation? She was presented a no win situation without any real nuances of a conventional victory without assistance. In the end she tried to live up to that singular priority above all of treating the lives of her soldiers with utmost care in the pursuit of victory. And she fulfils that role admirably... at least until Poe tarnished what would be her final actions.

That's the thing ... Holdo lives up to the remit of her office.

Poe does not.
I mean, they say that they are the very last of the resistance period, nobody would come to save them if it weren't for Rey. It really is a no-win situation because of the bad writing of the movie (outside Holdo's poor plays). Realistically the resistance has no moves to play no matter what happened, even if they get people to rise up there is no equipment for them. Even if the resistance hadn't lost all their ships to the chase, all they'd have is about a total of 30 fighters and bombers and the few transport craft they had. If the movie hadn't happened, they'd still be fucked.

But if the movie hadn't happened, we wouldn't be questioning logistics when the galaxy rebels and suddenly has a fighting force capable of standing up to the FO.

I mean, Star Wars has always been on some level dumb. It's only now trying to pretend logistics and conduct matter.
But it's always been a collection of movies with frankly bullshit ideas of black and white morality.

Like if Luke Skywalker's utter contempt for his responsibles and upstanding conduct is reflective of the 'path to being a Jedi' ... maybe they should forbid Jedi ever holding political and military positions...?

Like, fuck me ... imagine how awesome Palpitine would have been as the Chancellor if he just said. "Look, I'm significantly limiting the powers of the Jedi. They spy on people, they're training child soldiers, they have access to deadly weapons ... Really, it's kind of fucked up. So here on the Jedi will be relegated purely to spiritual roles with no outstanding powers related beyond theology and its instruction."

Boom!

Imagine the Jedi bursting into your office and trying to murder you over that?

How fucking phenomenal would that be? It would be great. Imagine the jedi trying to accuse you of being a Sith because you took away their secret religious police and because they are deemed an illegitimate environment for the education of minors?

Let's be generous and bring them here, to this place. Set they can be with their families. I am already arranging for the transports so these children can be reunited with their families and places in state owned public housing as we speak. No longer on religious grounds will we allow the private recruitment of these children to be trained and exposed to such barbaric, backwards practices...

Why didn't Palpitine just do that?

Easy ... because morality is black and white, and because Star Wars is inherently dumb.
Accurate.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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crimson5pheonix said:
Well you are correct that it is "at least as powerful as a dreadnought". Snoke's flagship is the single largest ship ever made in Star Wars apart from the Death Star (if you consider that a ship). The dreadnoughts were over 7.6km long and 4km wide. The Supremacy was 13km long and 60km wide. Now, with just the TIE fighters at a dreadnought's disposal they barely failed to stop Poe's run and Poe was barely able to take out the point defense turrets and the bombers were just enough to destroy a dreadnought. The hell were they going to do to the Supremacy?
I dunno, some wacky hothead plan involving hyperspace and bombracks pulled off due to sheer pluckiness and bravado. Standard Star Wars Hero plan.

As a point of fact, due to the comedy of errors, Holdo's plan has reduced the resistance to 12 people or so. I mean, I know we're supposed to expect the FO to not try scanning for their stealth system, but were we going to expect them to not check the closest planet after their ships had been abandoned? Iirc, the FO knew when the ships were abandoned.
Of course they're gonna scan for ships, that's what the stealth is for. I mean shit, would you expect your enemy to have a small fleet of stealth transports? Furthermore, would you expect them to maroon themselves on an abandoned planet full of salt and nothing, essentially defenseless, instead of trying to escape on their hyperspace capable ship or launching a desperate last stand?

Like, the FO isn't gonna know they abandoned their last, final hyperspace capable ship. That'd be crazy. Had the plan worked, they'd have chased the Raddus a couple more hours and seen it jump to hyperspace, then followed it and blown the fuck out've it. I mean, it's not like they bothered trying to capture the other two ships. By the time they notice a distinct lack of bodies in the debris, the Resistance could've hitched a ride off planet. Asking somebody to sneak past an old Star Destroyer or two to pick up your crew is a much easier request than asking somebody to intervene against a huge battlefleet involving the largest ships ever made.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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crimson5pheonix said:
So he should never question his commander's orders nor expect his commander to explain their reasoning? "Your job is to follow orders, not question them". I like the new fascist regime.
The military is not for you. "We defend democracy, not practice it" is not an uncommon refrain.
But in any case, it's not "catering to ego", it's "maintaining morale and preventing soldiers from accidentally undermining your plans". Because lo and behold, that's exactly what happens.
I like how Holdo is to blame for Poe not sharing relevant information with her. That makes sense, somehow. And, again, as soon as Poe learned the actual plan...he mutinied. I suppose you could make an argument that if he'd have mutinied earlier, things would've been better off, but that's speaking directly to hindsight.
 

crimson5pheonix

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altnameJag said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Well you are correct that it is "at least as powerful as a dreadnought". Snoke's flagship is the single largest ship ever made in Star Wars apart from the Death Star (if you consider that a ship). The dreadnoughts were over 7.6km long and 4km wide. The Supremacy was 13km long and 60km wide. Now, with just the TIE fighters at a dreadnought's disposal they barely failed to stop Poe's run and Poe was barely able to take out the point defense turrets and the bombers were just enough to destroy a dreadnought. The hell were they going to do to the Supremacy?
I dunno, some wacky hothead plan involving hyperspace and bombracks pulled off due to sheer pluckiness and bravado. Standard Star Wars Hero plan.
Accurate, but at that point their material forces don't matter in the face of pixie dust the force.

As a point of fact, due to the comedy of errors, Holdo's plan has reduced the resistance to 12 people or so. I mean, I know we're supposed to expect the FO to not try scanning for their stealth system, but were we going to expect them to not check the closest planet after their ships had been abandoned? Iirc, the FO knew when the ships were abandoned.
Of Course they're gonna scam for ships, that's what the stealth is for. I mean shit, would you expect your enemy to have a small fleet of stealth transports? Furthermore, would you expect them to maroon themselves on an abandoned planet full of salt and nothing, essentially defenseless, instead of trying to escape on their hyperspace capable ship or launching a desperate last stand?

Like, the FO isn't gonna know they abandoned their last, final hyperspace capable ship. That'd be crazy. Had the plan worked, they'd have chased the Raddus a couple more hours and seen it just to hyperspace, then followed it and blown the fuck out've it. I mean, it's not like they bothered trying to capture the other two ships. By the time they notice a distinct lack of bodies in the debris, the Resistance could've hitched a ride off planet. Asking somebody to sneak past an old Star Destroyer or two to pick up your crew is a much easier request than asking somebody to intervene against a huge battlefleet involving the largest ships ever made.
Well no, iirc they knew when they abandoned their other ships because they could scan the life signs on them. And yes, these people are descended from the same force that didn't fire on an escape pod just because it didn't have life signs (despite droids being a thing), but if we're supposed to care that tactics and strategy matter, what was her plan if they decided to search the only nearby planet where last they detected life signs?

And how were they going to hitch a ride anyway? They have no other forces anywhere and if the plan had succeeded perfectly, they'd have ~400 people. Too many to fit on the Millennium Falcon and too large for a stealthed ship (presumably since only tiny landing craft had been stealthed) to carry. Just having the FO leave a ship in orbit to search the debris would be enough to strand them there until they starved judging from the lack of food in the base.
 

crimson5pheonix

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altnameJag said:
crimson5pheonix said:
So he should never question his commander's orders nor expect his commander to explain their reasoning? "Your job is to follow orders, not question them". I like the new fascist regime.
The military is not for you. "We defend democracy, not practice it" is not an uncommon refrain.
True, it's just disconcerting that the movie wants me to sympathize with another movie's villain. And that the old rebel's habit of telling everyone a plan before they execute it has died to the new tyranny.
But in any case, it's not "catering to ego", it's "maintaining morale and preventing soldiers from accidentally undermining your plans". Because lo and behold, that's exactly what happens.
I like how Holdo is to blame for Poe not sharing relevant information with her. That makes sense, somehow. And, again, as soon as Poe learned the actual plan...he mutinied. I suppose you could make an argument that if he'd have mutinied earlier, things would've been better off, but that's speaking directly to hindsight.
It is speaking to hindsight (and also correct because he wouldn't have sent the C-team out). But it's Holdo who didn't share information that caused him to act in the fleet's (snicker they think it's a fleet) interest, though in a different way than Holdo and it didn't end up working out. Yes, he could have told Holdo (it would have been in his character to tell Holdo after he had sent them off and told her to shove it) and that might have resolved the plot.

But that requires anyone in the movie to act with any intelligence.
 

twistedmic

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altnameJag said:
I like how Holdo is to blame for Poe not sharing relevant information with her. That makes sense, somehow. And, again, as soon as Poe learned the actual plan...he mutinied. I suppose you could make an argument that if he'd have mutinied earlier, things would've been better off, but that's speaking directly to hindsight.
The Resistance would have been fucked if Poe had mutinied earlier and prevented Holodo from abandoning the Raddus. Remember, his plan to sneak aboard the Supremacy disable their tracker and jump away before anyone noticed the tracker wasn't working failed. Finn and Rose got caught and were nearly executed. The only thing that might have changed was DJ getting executed as well seeing as he had no way to cut a deal.
The Raddus would not have been able to escape, would not have stood a chance against nine regular/super Star Destroyers and Snoke's Mega Star Destroyer and there would not have been time to abandon ship like Holdo originally wanted.
 
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The review made me realize i have a different problem with Holdo.

I wouldn't say her character is pointless, but... redundant? Yeah, that'd be the word. She's just there to provide Poe a chance for character arc, and then die. With a few small changes in the script, you could make an already established character, like Leia, serve the same purpose.
 

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MrCalavera said:
The review made me realize i have a different problem with Holdo.

I wouldn't say her character is pointless, but... redundant? Yeah, that'd be the word. She's just there to provide Poe a chance for character arc, and then die. With a few small changes in the script, you could make an already established character, like Leia, serve the same purpose.
Leia would be harder to pull off, in that Leia's an established character that we're inclined to root for. Holdo, being a newcomer, is one that we'd be less inclined to trust, so we can get behind Poe's actions more, so when the rug's pulled out from under us, it's pulled out harder.

Or at least that's an explanation I've seen be given.
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

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crimson5pheonix said:
So he should never question his commander's orders nor expect his commander to explain their reasoning? "Your job is to follow orders, not question them". I like the new fascist regime.

But in any case, it's not "catering to ego", it's "maintaining morale and preventing soldiers from accidentally undermining your plans". Because lo and behold, that's exactly what happens.
The military is not a democracy. In essence, unless they're blatantly failing to up to their responsibilities you don't just jump to insubordination and mutiny. For starters, Poe is clearly not staff. He's in a cockpit. And there is no reason for him to suspect that his CO is acting outside their responsibilities.

Your average workspace is not a democracy, either. If the Department gave us instructions on how we were meant to break up fights on the school ground in a notice, or new guidelines on trans students and their transitioning in school ... you better believe teachers will follow it, or else they'll lose their jobs. But being a teacher is not a 'fascist' either.


I mean, they say that they are the very last of the resistance period, nobody would come to save them if it weren't for Rey. It really is a no-win situation because of the bad writing of the movie (outside Holdo's poor plays). Realistically the resistance has no moves to play no matter what happened, even if they get people to rise up there is no equipment for them. Even if the resistance hadn't lost all their ships to the chase, all they'd have is about a total of 30 fighters and bombers and the few transport craft they had. If the movie hadn't happened, they'd still be fucked.

But if the movie hadn't happened, we wouldn't be questioning logistics when the galaxy rebels and suddenly has a fighting force capable of standing up to the FO.
But if I remember correctly, no one could have known that for sure. And sure as shit Poe didn't before his insubordination. The thing is if they are the last of the Resistance, then it's pointless to fight as if one last desperate measure when even the slimmest possibilities exist to save the remnants of the Resistance remain.

The truly stupid thing is that they one so conveniently assemble in one place largely. The insinuation at the start of TFA seems to suggest that the Resistance is reduced to squallid little hideaways... so why they didn't try to just disband their forces with the orders of getting whatever experienced pilots and infantry to train up pilots and stompers wherever they get sent to.

Which is arguably the best reason why you'd want those craft to begin with, at least. Training craft while regenerating your forces.

But regardless, bad pacing does not a bad commander in Holdo make.

Much less in comparison to 'heroes' like Luke Skywalker. Hell, arguably Ackbar is a bigger fucking idiot of basically hyperspace jumping the entire Rebel fleet without actually making contact and confirmation with the Rebel commandos. But then again, Star Wars is not a smart franchise. It's stupid fun.

Accurate.
Precisely... so why is it Holdo gets any measure of abstracted criticism?

Quite clearly she and Leia are the only commanders with any actual reasons to exist. Even if you disagree with her decisions, it's at least forseeable why a commander would act like Leia and Holdo. And moreover, they are genuinely heroic ...
 

crimson5pheonix

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Addendum_Forthcoming said:
crimson5pheonix said:
So he should never question his commander's orders nor expect his commander to explain their reasoning? "Your job is to follow orders, not question them". I like the new fascist regime.

But in any case, it's not "catering to ego", it's "maintaining morale and preventing soldiers from accidentally undermining your plans". Because lo and behold, that's exactly what happens.
The military is not a democracy. In essence, unless they're blatantly failing to up to their responsibilities you don't just jump to insubordination and mutiny. For starters, Poe is clearly not staff. He's in a cockpit. And there is no reason for him to suspect that his CO is acting outside their responsibilities.

Your average workspace is not a democracy, either. If the Department gave us instructions on how we were meant to break up fights on the school ground in a notice, or new guidelines on trans students and their transitioning in school ... you better believe teachers will follow it, or else they'll lose their jobs. But being a teacher is not a 'fascist' either.
But in any reasonable situation you would be allowed to ask questions and reasonably expect an explanation of the logic. Unless an order needs to be followed in that exact moment for a timing issue (which definitely wasn't the case here with Holdo's plan), you're going to come off looking like the villain if you act like that. Not to mention it's inefficient to do so for precisely the reasons shown in the movie.

I mean, they say that they are the very last of the resistance period, nobody would come to save them if it weren't for Rey. It really is a no-win situation because of the bad writing of the movie (outside Holdo's poor plays). Realistically the resistance has no moves to play no matter what happened, even if they get people to rise up there is no equipment for them. Even if the resistance hadn't lost all their ships to the chase, all they'd have is about a total of 30 fighters and bombers and the few transport craft they had. If the movie hadn't happened, they'd still be fucked.

But if the movie hadn't happened, we wouldn't be questioning logistics when the galaxy rebels and suddenly has a fighting force capable of standing up to the FO.
But if I remember correctly, no one could have known that for sure. And sure as shit Poe didn't before his insubordination. The thing is if they are the last of the Resistance, then it's pointless to fight as if one last desperate measure when even the slimmest possibilities exist to save the remnants of the Resistance remain.

The truly stupid thing is that they one so conveniently assemble in one place largely. The insinuation at the start of TFA seems to suggest that the Resistance is reduced to squallid little hideaways... so why they didn't try to just disband their forces with the orders of getting whatever experienced pilots and infantry to train up pilots and stompers wherever they get sent to.

Which is arguably the best reason why you'd want those craft to begin with, at least. Training craft while regenerating your forces.

But regardless, bad pacing does not a bad commander in Holdo make.

Much less in comparison to 'heroes' like Luke Skywalker. Hell, arguably Ackbar is a bigger fucking idiot of basically hyperspace jumping the entire Rebel fleet without actually making contact and confirmation with the Rebel commandos. But then again, Star Wars is not a smart franchise. It's stupid fun.
You're running along with a lot of the arguments I've been making in this thread previously. The problem is that Leia and Holdo are pissed at Poe for destroying their main battle force and they (and the people in this thread) defend their position by saying that Poe's actions crippled the resistance's ability to engage the FO's military. You and Agema brought up the actual smart point that they could train new soldiers (though there are still problems with that), but that's not an argument they use in the movie. It seems like Leia and Holdo expected that force to be the backbone of their military for engaging the FO and I can only think "the hell kind of strategy do you expect to pull off with 4 transports and 30 attack craft against a military the size of the FO? The rebel alliance had dozens of transports and hundreds or thousands of attack craft at Endor." So from a logistics standpoint, there isn't even a resistance anymore. They can't actually threaten the FO.

As to why training new soldiers doesn't work out that well, the original trilogy established (either in the movies or in expanded content, I have slept since I last saw them) that the rebels had spent decades building up their forces under the empire and so had stocked bases scattered about and various manufacturing companies making them ships and weapons on the sly, such that they could field a relatively small but reasonably threatening fleet when they needed to. The resistance on the other hand also had decades to build up, but they only had about 1 bases worth of equipment, ships, and personnel. They have so utterly failed on the logistics front that they can't wage any sort of actual resistance against the FO. They don't even have any intel on the FO either. But what this means is that implicitly there aren't any manufacturers making munitions, so even if they got the support of the galaxy now, they won't be able to be armed for a while since there aren't any factories even in real production mode. So even if they had pilots to train with, they've got nothing to do.

Accurate.
Precisely... so why is it Holdo gets any measure of abstracted criticism?

Quite clearly she and Leia are the only commanders with any actual reasons to exist. Even if you disagree with her decisions, it's at least forseeable why a commander would act like Leia and Holdo. And moreover, they are genuinely heroic ...
Because they decided to make this plot point about logistics and opened the door to how fucked the resistance is and how even if you consider Poe's action wasteful, the fleet was pointless anyway. Not to mention the actions they take would be villainous actions in other movies.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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twistedmic said:
altnameJag said:
I like how Holdo is to blame for Poe not sharing relevant information with her. That makes sense, somehow. And, again, as soon as Poe learned the actual plan...he mutinied. I suppose you could make an argument that if he'd have mutinied earlier, things would've been better off, but that's speaking directly to hindsight.
The Resistance would have been fucked if Poe had mutinied earlier and prevented Holodo from abandoning the Raddus. Remember, his plan to sneak aboard the Supremacy disable their tracker and jump away before anyone noticed the tracker wasn't working failed. Finn and Rose got caught and were nearly executed. The only thing that might have changed was DJ getting executed as well seeing as he had no way to cut a deal.
The Raddus would not have been able to escape, would not have stood a chance against nine regular/super Star Destroyers and Snoke's Mega Star Destroyer and there would not have been time to abandon ship like Holdo originally wanted.
Theoretically, had his mutiny happened and been thwarted earlier, he wouldn't've been around to tell Finn, Rose, and DJ about the stealth shuttles.

But that's making a lot of assumptions.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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crimson5pheonix said:
altnameJag said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Well you are correct that it is "at least as powerful as a dreadnought". Snoke's flagship is the single largest ship ever made in Star Wars apart from the Death Star (if you consider that a ship). The dreadnoughts were over 7.6km long and 4km wide. The Supremacy was 13km long and 60km wide. Now, with just the TIE fighters at a dreadnought's disposal they barely failed to stop Poe's run and Poe was barely able to take out the point defense turrets and the bombers were just enough to destroy a dreadnought. The hell were they going to do to the Supremacy?
I dunno, some wacky hothead plan involving hyperspace and bombracks pulled off due to sheer pluckiness and bravado. Standard Star Wars Hero plan.
Accurate, but at that point their material forces don't matter in the face of pixie dust the force.
Welcome to Space Magic 101. Today's lesion is that Space Magic trumps mortal technology.

Well no, iirc they knew when they abandoned their other ships because they could scan the life signs on them. And yes, these people are descended from the same force that didn't fire on an escape pod just because it didn't have life signs (despite droids being a thing), but if we're supposed to care that tactics and strategy matter, what was her plan if they decided to search the only nearby planet where last they detected life signs?

And how were they going to hitch a ride anyway? They have no other forces anywhere and if the plan had succeeded perfectly, they'd have ~400 people. Too many to fit on the Millennium Falcon and too large for a stealthed ship (presumably since only tiny landing craft had been stealthed) to carry. Just having the FO leave a ship in orbit to search the debris would be enough to strand them there until they starved judging from the lack of food in the base.
Nah. See, the FO could only detect life signs at about the range that their guns could do damage. If the Resistance kept up the chase for an hour or two before making a last jump into hyperspace, there'd be plenty of time for a medium transport to sneak past the inevitability lax security the FO left around the dead planet...or at least, that's how the Hail Mary plan was supposed to work out.

Could the FO have thwarted it? I mean, yeah? Probably? Especially if Snoke wasn't distracted/bisected by Rey and Ren. It's a bad plan. It might be a better plan then "try to sneak about the enemy flagship, find which specific power conduit housed the tracking device, break that quietly with a hacker that really only has Maz's word going for him, and escape undetected, hoping to make it to hyperspace before anybody notices anything's amiss", but it's not a good plan. The Resistance didn't have the resources to make a good plan.
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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Falling said:
Luke was a coward...
Luke is not a coward. He doesn't lack bravery; he lacks motivation.

He has lost his belief in The Force as the answer to a better galaxy. This is, after all, a man whose father fell to the dark side and was integral in the creation of the Empire, and who when attempting to train new Jedi saw one - his own nephew, no less - turn to the dark side, kill all the other recruits and join Empire 2.0. He sees Jedis, he sees catastrophe waiting to happen. He just needs convincing that won't be the case this time round.
 

Davroth

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The heroic thing would have been to abandon one ship, and hyper jump it into the enemy flagship so the Resistance can escape. Doing it as basically a last resort after all but two handfuls of Resistance members are left is just stupid if that was always an option.
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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Davroth said:
The heroic thing would have been to abandon one ship, and hyper jump it into the enemy flagship so the Resistance can escape. Doing it as basically a last resort after all but two handfuls of Resistance members are left is just stupid if that was always an option.
Assuming it could be guaranteed to work and was known to be necessary.

A tactic of last resort is the least good option. Maybe it's hugely damaging (particularly to oneself), or a desperate roll of the dice because the chances of success are so small. It's what you do when you absolutely have to, not when there's still a potentially better alternative.
 

crimson5pheonix

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altnameJag said:
crimson5pheonix said:
altnameJag said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Well you are correct that it is "at least as powerful as a dreadnought". Snoke's flagship is the single largest ship ever made in Star Wars apart from the Death Star (if you consider that a ship). The dreadnoughts were over 7.6km long and 4km wide. The Supremacy was 13km long and 60km wide. Now, with just the TIE fighters at a dreadnought's disposal they barely failed to stop Poe's run and Poe was barely able to take out the point defense turrets and the bombers were just enough to destroy a dreadnought. The hell were they going to do to the Supremacy?
I dunno, some wacky hothead plan involving hyperspace and bombracks pulled off due to sheer pluckiness and bravado. Standard Star Wars Hero plan.
Accurate, but at that point their material forces don't matter in the face of pixie dust the force.
Welcome to Space Magic 101. Today's lesion is that Space Magic trumps mortal technology.
This is why they don't bring this kind of stuff up in the other movies and just let any tactical victory be a tactical victory. We're not supposed to care about logistics.

Well no, iirc they knew when they abandoned their other ships because they could scan the life signs on them. And yes, these people are descended from the same force that didn't fire on an escape pod just because it didn't have life signs (despite droids being a thing), but if we're supposed to care that tactics and strategy matter, what was her plan if they decided to search the only nearby planet where last they detected life signs?

And how were they going to hitch a ride anyway? They have no other forces anywhere and if the plan had succeeded perfectly, they'd have ~400 people. Too many to fit on the Millennium Falcon and too large for a stealthed ship (presumably since only tiny landing craft had been stealthed) to carry. Just having the FO leave a ship in orbit to search the debris would be enough to strand them there until they starved judging from the lack of food in the base.
Nah. See, the FO could only detect life signs at about the range that their guns could do damage. If the Resistance kept up the chase for an hour or two before making a last jump into hyperspace, there'd be plenty of time for a medium transport to sneak past the inevitability lax security the FO left around the dead planet...or at least, that's how the Hail Mary plan was supposed to work out.
Did they establish the range of the scanners? I legit don't remember. And man would it be awkward if the Supremacy had better scanners on top of warp tracking.

Could the FO have thwarted it? I mean, yeah? Probably? Especially if Snoke wasn't distracted/bisected by Rey and Ren. It's a bad plan. It might be a better plan then "try to sneak about the enemy flagship, find which specific power conduit housed the tracking device, break that quietly with a hacker that really only has Maz's word going for him, and escape undetected, hoping to make it to hyperspace before anybody notices anything's amiss", but it's not a good plan. The Resistance didn't have the resources to make a good plan.
I mean, that's the problem. The resistance doesn't just not have the resources to make a good plan, they just plain don't have resources. You could just assume the rebels had as many people and equipment as the plot demanded but they've now hard established that the resistance is incapable of fighting the FO at any level at the start of the movie. At the end of the movie, calling them the resistance is comical.

What, Leia and Holdo got pissed that Poe launched their forces in a costly tactical victory because they wanted to launch their forces for a costly tactical victory later on?
 

Johnny Novgorod

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I just rewatched (or re-heard rather) the whole review and yup, with the exception of some nitpicking that any dumb fantasy movie should be able to get away with (technicalities, really) I have to agree with pretty much all the criticisms. Holdo and Poe, Rey and Luke, Finn and Rose, etc.

MrCalavera said:
The review made me realize i have a different problem with Holdo.

I wouldn't say her character is pointless, but... redundant? Yeah, that'd be the word. She's just there to provide Poe a chance for character arc, and then die. With a few small changes in the script, you could make an already established character, like Leia, serve the same purpose.
That would've worked like a charm. Erase Holdo (or have her equivalent die along with Ackbar), save us the space-whatever scene with Leia, focus on the conflict between her and Poe, have Leia sacrifice herself at the end instead.