Mr Plinkett Last Jedi Review

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

And then...what would have happened?

The dreadnought comes through hyperspace behind them. And they all get obliterated.

Seriously, that's been mentioned several times, but you seem to be willfully ignoring it.

Where is that stated in the movie?

I keep seeing people claiming that the dreadnought could take out the fleet, but no-one's provided any evidence for it.

It's literally referred to as, and I'm quoting here, "a fleet killer."

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mandator_IV-class_Siege_Dreadnought

The quote is the first thing on the dreadnought's page.

Also, fun fact. Poe and company killed a quarter of a million people within the first 10 minutes of the movie.

Yeah, but in a galaxy of likely a trillion or more humans with a galaxy of resources it's just a drop in the bucket really. Give or take a day and you could probably replace the ones lost with new people and begin their training.

That being said, more often than not it seems that kind of large vessel in Star Wars is a carrier for short range fighters and bombers. And it does seem to be the case that kind of twisting the WW2 revolution of the carrier over the battleship that it seems that frigates, corvettes, destroyers, and fighters/bombers are used predominantly against capital ships.

Also, I get why they call it a 'Star Destroyer' .... but clearly Star Destroyers are capital vessels... It should be a Star Battlecruiser...

Little nitpick I guess, but w/e...

So one would have to imagine that these super heavy ship guns are designed mostly for assailing planetary targets? You know ... attacking hardened targets that are static (beyond rotational spin) before preparing to make a ground invasion with their complement of soldiers?

Logically, the Empire is the biggest thing in the galaxy, even by Ep. 6 ... so you would think that they would design their navy not with the idea of attacking enemy ships, but ruthlessly dominating any possible revolutionary activity on planets.

So essentially gigantic carriers for dealing with small enemy craft and whatever piddly revolutionary space force a rebelled planet might muster, mobile guns for planetary bombardment and troop transports. Basically focussing on making sure every inhabitant of the galaxy recognizes that within days stormtroopers can be kicking down their doors, and their cities will be reduced to dust beforethey even recognize the danger.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

It's literally referred to as, and I'm quoting here, "a fleet killer."

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mandator_IV-class_Siege_Dreadnought

The quote is literally the first thing on the dreadnought's page.

Yes, and? Dreadnoughts are designed for ship-to-ship combat. That isn't news. If you want to play the quote game, I can also quote Ackbar in saying that it's designed for planetary assault.

The question is, again, what is the evidence that the dreadnought had the range to take out the Resistance ships? I've already been to that page, and there's no mention of it having exceptional range. Just because it has heavy firepower doesn't mean it can use effectively against an ever receeding target with shields.

Yeah, I'm not playing this game.

You have a great time.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

Yeah, but in a galaxy of likely a trillion or more humans with a galaxy of resources it's just a drop in the bucket really.

That being said, more often than not it seems that kind of large vessel in Star Wars is a carrier forshort range fighters and bombers. And it does seem to bethe case that kindof twisting the WW2 revolution of the carrier over the battleship that it seems that frigates, corvettes, destroyers, and fighters/bombers are used predominantly against capital ships.

Also, I get why they call it a 'Star Destroyer' .... but clearly Star Destroyers are capital vessels... surely it should be a Star Battlecruiser...

Little nitpick I guess, but w/e...

So one would have to imagine that these super heavy ship arsenal is designed mostly for assailing planetarytargets? You know ... attacking hardened targets before preparing to make a ground invasion with their complement of soldiers?

I don't know why you're getting all relativistic about the death toll there, but it's still 250,000+ people getting nuked in the opening bit.

That's not an inconsequential body count, if you like...look at people as individual entities or something.

And they're called Star Destroyers because they destroy stars. Not really, but it's a nifty name.

There are, or at least there used to be, frigates, cruisers, carriers, etc. in the lore. It's just a capital ship with hangar bays for a fighter compliment. And that just happens to be the super duper evil and intimidating nomenclature the Imperials were known for.

As for the dreadnought, as was pointed out in Hawki's post, it's obvious that one of those would be designed for ship-to-ship combat.

Furthermore, iirc, capital ships are already capable of orbital bombardments as is. This particular ship just seems like a heavy hitter meant to focus fire and decimate specific harder targets, be it on the ground, in the air, or in space.

Just sucks for that ship that their escorts were incompetent. Though. You know. Writing.

 

[Hawki]

Yeah, but in a galaxy of likely a trillion or more humans with a galaxy of resources it's just a drop in the bucket really.

That being said, more often than not it seems that kind of large vessel in Star Wars is a carrier forshort range fighters and bombers. And it does seem to bethe case that kindof twisting the WW2 revolution of the carrier over the battleship that it seems that frigates, corvettes, destroyers, and fighters/bombers are used predominantly against capital ships.

Also, I get why they call it a 'Star Destroyer' .... but clearly Star Destroyers are capital vessels... surely it should be a Star Battlecruiser...

The bigger question is why the Empire had stuff like "Death Star" and "Star Destroyer" when neither of them actually destroy stars.

Say what you will about Starkiller Base, least that actually 'killed' stars to fire its weapon. 0_0

So one would have to imagine that these super heavy ship arsenal is designed mostly for assailing planetary targets? You know ... attacking hardened targets that are static (beyond rotational spin) before preparing to make a ground invasion with their complement of soldiers?

Probably.

Historically, dreadnoughts have had two roles - ship-to-ship combat, and providing artillery support for amphibious assault. So while calling the dreadnought a "fleet killer" in Last Jedi makes sense, there's no evidence that it could be used to take out the Raddus where the other ships couldn't. While we see it level the base on D'Qar, that isn't a 1:1 comparison with the Raddus, in that:

-The Raddus is shielded, D'Qar isn't.

-The Raddus is a smaller target that's constantly receeding. So, not only does the dreadnought need to hit it using (presumably) unguided weaponry, but the film establishes that energy-based weapons lose impact as they travel further (which kinda makes sense given what we know of physics).

So, yes. There's nothing to suggest (that I can see) that the dreadnought would mean instadeath for the Resistance fleet.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

I don't know why you're getting all relativistic about the death toll there, but it's still 250,000+ people getting nuked in the opening bit.

That's not an inconsequential body count, if you like...look at people as individual entities or something.

Yeah, but at the height of the Empire's power they were likely losing hundreds of thousands just dealing with arms smugglers shipping materiel to rebel buyers. Or simply inprotracted guerrilla campaigns across the galaxy.

Australia lost about 0.4% of its total citizenry in soldiers over 6 days and at only one battlefield. By the end 10% of its population been sent to the fight in a matter of three years. Wasn't a fascist regime and didn't have conscription.

War is awful, but it has a baseline awfulness that is always grounded in some sense of relative weight as to what a political body can lose. Empire losing 250,000 would be a drop in the bucket ... hardly noticeable during the heights of their power. And yeah, it's entirely relative. Precisely because we've had wars in the not so distant past where losses were treated like that.

You have an organization gutted by war and routine losses of millions over the years. Where probably billions were snuffed out on Alderaan in a blink of the eye. And it's been like this for generations. People will have built up a resistance to such losses even if it were a standout event. The fact that it's not, even more so.

And they're called Star Destroyers because they destroy stars. Not really, but it's a nifty name.

There are, or at least there used to be, frigates, cruisers, carriers, etc. in the lore. It's just a capital ship with hangar bays for a fighter compliment. And that just happens to be the super duper evil and intimidating nomenclature the Imperials were known for.

Yeah, but it's a dumb name.

Though it does play into the argument that the Empire is less concerned with attacking enemyships as they arepresenting a terrifying force and ruling through fear.

Basically making it known that at any moment the Empire can bombard your planet, kick your doors down with stormtroopers, and packing just enough fighters and bombers to deal with whatever piddly aerial/space resistance that a rebelling planet might be able to muster in time.

As for the dreadnought, as was pointed out in Hawki's post, it's obvious that one of those would be designed for ship-to-ship combat.

Furthermore, iirc, capital ships are already capable of orbital bombardments as is. This particular ship just seems like a heavy hitter meant to focus fire and decimate specific harder targets, be it on the ground, in the air, or in space.

Just sucks for that ship that their escorts were incompetent. Though. You know. Writing.

I guess so? Still, in SW universe it seems to be that all the ship-to-ship combat is majoritively performed by smaller craft. The Capital ships are just there to bring even more craft and soldiers to the fight.

And it makes sense for the Empire to not be soheavily invested in ship-to-ship combat over planetary bombardment and troop transports.

The irony is that the'Rebellion'/'Resistance' basically has a military industrial complex that speaks to the fact that it's not so much an 'insurrection' but a war between actual nations.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Oh boy, are we talking about how shit TLJ was? My favorite conversations

#PoeDidNothingWrong

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Oh boy, are we talking about how shit TLJ was? My favorite conversations

#PoeDidNothingWrong

Its still an even hotter topic then Batman v Superman. And what I learn from all this is don't debate shit. Just keep your unpopular movie opinions to yourself.

 

[Hawki]

#PoeDidNothingWrong

Except:

-Performing a counter-productive run on a dreadnought that does far more damage to the Resistance than the First Order.

-Sending Resistance members on a mission that invalidates Holdo's plan and leads to further losses

-Staging a mutiny that costs the Resistance time and effort

Its still an even hotter topic then Batman v Superman. And what I learn from all this is don't debate shit. Just keep your unpopular movie opinions to yourself.

Except Batman v Superman is bad, and Last Jedi isn't.

Actually, if we're looking for a DCEU counterpart to Last Jedi, it would probably be Man of Steel (which, like Last Jedi, I do like, even if both movies have flaws). Both movies are/were extremely polarizing, and both subverted the traditional expectations of their setting/genre.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

#PoeDidNothingWrong

Except:

-Performing a counter-productive run on a dreadnought that does far more damage to the Resistance than the First Order.

-Sending Resistance members on a mission that invalidates Holdo's plan and leads to further losses

-Staging a mutiny that costs the Resistance time and effort

Maybe if Holdo wasn't useless.

#FireHoldo

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

#PoeDidNothingWrong

Except:

-Performing a counter-productive run on a dreadnought that does far more damage to the Resistance than the First Order.

-Sending Resistance members on a mission that invalidates Holdo's plan and leads to further losses

-Staging a mutiny that costs the Resistance time and effort

Its still an even hotter topic then Batman v Superman. And what I learn from all this is don't debate shit. Just keep your unpopular movie opinions to yourself.

Except Batman v Superman is bad, and Last Jedi isn't.

Actually, if we're looking for a DCEU counterpart to Last Jedi, it would probably be Man of Steel (which, like Last Jedi, I do like, even if both movies have flaws). Both movies are/were extremely polarizing, and both subverted the traditional expectations of their setting/genre.

So far the people I have seen being negative against the movie seems to be on the winning side of the arguement here.

I have seen people done 5 hours deconstructing the entire movie to prove why its a bad movie

How do you refute 5+ hours of criticism?

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

The bigger question is why the Empire had stuff like "Death Star" and "Star Destroyer" when neither of them actually destroy stars.

Say what you will about Starkiller Base, least that actually 'killed' stars to fire its weapon. 0_0

Well... yeah, but I see the Imperial forces as less a military and more like the Gestapo. Ruling by fear given they had already crushed all possible major powers requiring a true professional force over glorified militarized police.

Treat it like the Inquisition in 40k. Not a true military, more like a specialized collection of a fascist special service.

Probably.

Historically, dreadnoughts have had two roles - ship-to-ship combat, and providing artillery support for amphibious assault. So while calling the dreadnought a "fleet killer" in Last Jedi makes sense, there's no evidence that it could be used to take out the Raddus where the other ships couldn't. While we see it level the base on D'Qar, that isn't a 1:1 comparison with the Raddus, in that:

-The Raddus is shielded, D'Qar isn't.

-The Raddus is a smaller target that's constantly receeding. So, not only does the dreadnought need to hit it using (presumably) unguided weaponry, but the film establishes that energy-based weapons lose impact as they travel further (which kinda makes sense given what we know of physics).

So, yes. There's nothing to suggest (that I can see) that the dreadnought would mean instadeath for the Resistance fleet.

Hrm... I guess 'fleet killer' could just be a colloquial description. After all, get a big enough gun, and enough of them, and you can poke holes in anything.

It makes sense the Empire is a shadow of what is was, given it is so weakened and rival professional militaries may arise. So having craft up their capabilities against a future possible rival makes sense. And one has to imagine jumpstarting an arms industry to suit the possibility of force parity makes sense?

 

[Hawki]

So far the people I have seen being negative against the movie seems to be on the winning side of the arguement here.

How do you define "winning?" In the way you frame it, it's "Side X presents arguments I agree with, ergo Side Y loses."

But if you want to look at Last Jedi, then it's a critical success and commercial success. It arguably 'loses' in the fan area, but 2/3 isn't bad.

I have seen people done 5 hours deconstructing the entire movie to prove why its a bad movie

How do you refute 5+ hours of criticism?

...by spending more than five hours?

Seriously, the amount of time spent on an argument isn't equivalent to the quality of the argument. The Plinkett videos on the prequels are long for instance, it doesn't change the fact that a significant portion of the running time is spent on terrible humour.

But I'll come out and say it now, there's no way I'm spending 5+ hours talking about the Last Jedi. If that means I "lose," then sure. The longest I've spent on 'arguing' about TLJ is about one hour when I wrote 'Broken'.

 

[Trooper924]

This may not be the strongest Plinkett video but it's got my favorite internet car crash foaming at the mouth on social media.
Good enough.
Can anybody give an intelligent reason for Laura Dern to stubbornly hold back her plan from Poe/her troops, other than giving Poe, Finn and Rose something to do?

Because he's just been demoted for (A) ignoring orders and (B) getting a lot of people killed in a pointless victory that arguably means nothing in the long term.

Gee, I wonder why someone doesn't trust captain reckless moron who, the second he figures out the plan, goes and blabs it in earshot of the guy who sells the information directly to the first order.

It's really remarkable that most people don't understand this. And that they'll bend themselves backwards trying to prove that it isn't the case.

Other way around.
Poe is 100% OK with Holdo's secret plan. Everybody is. It makes sense. And it works out. Holdo only creates more trouble for herself and the rebel fleet in pretending she doesn't know what the fuck she's doing. People are quick to explain why Holdo is entitled to keep things secret from subordinate. What they can never explain is why and how that makes sense. Why not placate a troublemaker rather than pointlessly irritate him?

Given the circumstances, I think Holdo can be forgiven for being a bit short with Poe. I mean, most of their leadership just got killed, their main leader is in a coma, the First Order is tailgating them, taking potshots at their collective asses, and it all falls on her to pull them out of the fire.

So she lost her cool and told him to screw off--but she had bigger fish to fry and couldn't afford wasting time trying to sell her plan to some hotshot grunt (especially one who just got demoted for getting a bunch of people killed).

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

How do you define "winning?" In the way you frame it, it's "Side X presents arguments I agree with, ergo Side Y loses."

But if you want to look at Last Jedi, then it's a critical success and commercial success. It arguably 'loses' in the fan area, but 2/3 isn't bad.

I didn't mind TLJ. Mainly because the last SW property I thoroughly liked was the pre-Lucas free reign original trilogy. And even those have core problems.

Like General Skywalker up and leaving his troops to their fates when he had a good reason to suspect their presence had been detected. Just to have a heart-to-heart with the old man, apparently. I hope he had a lot of time to think about that when he was sitting down and writing personal letters to the bereaved family members of those that died while he was busy surrendering to the enemy before the battle even begun.

If people were so pedant in breaking down TLJ and pretending like Holdo should have to treat an insubordinate manbaby so many ranks below the brass with anything less than contempt and refusing to cater to their ego is somehow a valid criticism... funnily enough nobody seems to point the same critique at Luke.

I feel like SW is a nerd's idea of military service. Sorry, it is a case of bureaucracy and doing things in a specific way.

Hell, in selection they kick your arses, drag you and a bunch of people to the middle of nowhere. Tell you to get out. They point to a pair of full jerry cans and tell you to carry them to a preselected point at dawn. You do it. Another person awaiting there tells you to take it back. And so on and so on until you quit or collapse. Until you're so hungry, tired, dehydrated, and the only thing you've tasted over the last 6 hours in vomit. Perpetual taste of vomit. They stick an IV in you, wait until you've rested and tell you how you did.

And the reason why they do this is to measure your tolerance to endure mindless tasks that seem counter intuitive, and do so to the limits of your physical capabilities. Funnily enough leading an insubordinate, whiny revolt meant you aren't the right material.

Point is that pedantry with SW misses the point it's movies with cool spaceships and blasters, and less cool space monks and laser deathsticking. People watch SW for different reasons... I personally watch them for the blasters and the ships. Sabres and soace monk magic is less interesting, but I didn't mind the laser deathsticking in either TFA or TLJ. The best laser deathsticking is still RotJ, but the laser deathsticking in TFA or TLJ wasn't bad.

This is why I like Rogue One, by the by. Had problems ... but delivered awesome ship and ground battles. And that's the type of SW that appeals to me.

 

[Natemans]

Oh boy, are we talking about how shit TLJ was? My favorite conversations

#PoeDidNothingWrong

Yeah, disobeying orders from your C.O. and causing all of your bombers or some of your fighters get taken out. He did nothing wrong at all.

 

[Natemans]

#PoeDidNothingWrong

Except:

-Performing a counter-productive run on a dreadnought that does far more damage to the Resistance than the First Order.

-Sending Resistance members on a mission that invalidates Holdo's plan and leads to further losses

-Staging a mutiny that costs the Resistance time and effort

Its still an even hotter topic then Batman v Superman. And what I learn from all this is don't debate shit. Just keep your unpopular movie opinions to yourself.

Except Batman v Superman is bad, and Last Jedi isn't.

Actually, if we're looking for a DCEU counterpart to Last Jedi, it would probably be Man of Steel (which, like Last Jedi, I do like, even if both movies have flaws). Both movies are/were extremely polarizing, and both subverted the traditional expectations of their setting/genre.

So far the people I have seen being negative against the movie seems to be on the winning side of the arguement here.

I have seen people done 5 hours deconstructing the entire movie to prove why its a bad movie

How do you refute 5+ hours of criticism?

Ugh, fuck the MauLer review. Tried 5 minutes and gave up on it. Felt like nothing, but nitpicking.

There's a bunch of films I dislike, but you don't see me wanting to spend 5 hours talking why its shit.


Look, I love the film and I got flaws with it, but I just wish the internet would calm down.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Oh boy, are we talking about how shit TLJ was? My favorite conversations

#PoeDidNothingWrong

Yeah, disobeying orders from your C.O. and causing all of your bombers or some of your fighters get taken out. He did nothing wrong at all.

Not a thing. Saved the fleet from getting steamrolled.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

#PoeDidNothingWrong

Except:

-Performing a counter-productive run on a dreadnought that does far more damage to the Resistance than the First Order.

-Sending Resistance members on a mission that invalidates Holdo's plan and leads to further losses

-Staging a mutiny that costs the Resistance time and effort

Its still an even hotter topic then Batman v Superman. And what I learn from all this is don't debate shit. Just keep your unpopular movie opinions to yourself.

Except Batman v Superman is bad, and Last Jedi isn't.

Actually, if we're looking for a DCEU counterpart to Last Jedi, it would probably be Man of Steel (which, like Last Jedi, I do like, even if both movies have flaws). Both movies are/were extremely polarizing, and both subverted the traditional expectations of their setting/genre.

So far the people I have seen being negative against the movie seems to be on the winning side of the arguement here.

I have seen people done 5 hours deconstructing the entire movie to prove why its a bad movie

How do you refute 5+ hours of criticism?

Ugh, fuck the MauLer review. Tried 5 minutes and gave up on it. Felt like nothing, but nitpicking.

There's a bunch of films I dislike, but you don't see me wanting to spend 5 hours talking why its shit.


Look, I love the film and I got flaws with it, but I just wish the internet would calm down.

Now you know what I was going through with Batman v Superman.

So many fucking videos deconstructing it, even when I had not watched anything Superhero related

And its at this point today that I am starting to completely lost interest in watching movies at all. At least anything new and upcoming, because movies these days just suck. And movie culture on the internet is constantly propagating this negativity

 

[Hawki]

Not a thing. Saved the fleet from getting steamrolled.

Because having your fighter and bomber wings nearly wiped out for minimal gain is actually a good thing.

I didn't mind TLJ. Mainly because the last SW property I thoroughly liked was the pre-Lucas free reign original trilogy. And even those have core problems.

Like General Skywalker up and leaving his troops to their fates when he had a good reason to suspect their presence had been detected. Just to have a heart-to-heart with the old man, apparently. I hope he had a lot of time to think about that when he was sitting down and writing personal letters to the bereaved family members of those that died while he was busy surrendering to the enemy before the battle even begun.

Wasn't he a commander then?

That aside, the Rebel Alliance's ranking system is whack. Han becomes a general within three years, Lando gets the position in 1.

Point is that pedantry with SW misses the point it's movies with cool spaceships and blasters, and less cool space monks and laser deathsticking. People watch SW for different reasons... I personally watch them for the blasters and the ships. Sabres and soace monk magic is less interesting, but I didn't mind the laser deathsticking in either TFA or TLJ. The best laser deathsticking is still RotJ, but the laser deathsticking in TFA or TLJ wasn't bad.

This is why I like Rogue One, by the by. Had problems ... but delivered awesome ship and ground battles. And that's the type of SW that appeals to me.

Fair enough. I'm actually the opposite - Star Wars is the best for me when it's delving into the mystical/magical side. Part of why Last Jedi is the best of the NuWars films for me, whereas Rogue One is my least favourite (and is why it ranks close to the bottom of the list for me, whereas TFA/Solo/TLJ hover in the middle.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Not a thing. Saved the fleet from getting steamrolled.

Because having your fighter and bomber wings nearly wiped out for minimal gain is actually a good thing.

Hey, if that destroyer was there when the rest of the fleet came in, they would have been fucked. Poe is the secret hero.