Mr Plinkett Last Jedi Review

[Agema]

Ah, if but they were launching that flanking maneuver. Instead Poe took something they had no plans to take at the time. Because thinking a handful of fighters and bombers could take a capital ship would be a stupid thought if it weren't Poe at the front.

Okay - but the aim of the resistance at that point is surely to preserve resources. They've lost this battle, hopelessly. The task is therefore to retreat and (re-)build, for which they mostly need experienced personnel to run operations, train and lead new recruits. They need that much more than they need to destroy one of the enemy's many, large ships.

Maintaining troop morale is also a job of a commanding officer. Like I said in another post, whatever punishment Poe and the rest of the mutineers would get in a court martial, they would also investigate the commanding officer to see why they mutinied.

There's a difference between "maintaining troop morale" and "assuaging the fragile egos of cocky middle ranking officers".

The problem starts and ends at Poe. He's the really unhappy one, who actively incites the mutiny. He could have gone to cheer up the grunts, told them an experienced officer Leia herself trusted was in charge, and she could get them out of it. He doesn't, because he has taken a dislike to Holdo, which he does basically on her appearance. He thinks he knows better - even having already been taken down a peg by Leia hasn't taught him the lesson. Poe might fit the bill for the reckless, maverick hero... but he's a bad soldier, and the situation needs a soldier. He's the incompetent one.

 

[Squilookle]

Give it up already, Crimson. By this stage you're just embarrassing yourself. You've clearly thought about it a lot, which is admirable, but your argument itself just isn't holding any water. Let it go.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Ah, if but they were launching that flanking maneuver. Instead Poe took something they had no plans to take at the time. Because thinking a handful of fighters and bombers could take a capital ship would be a stupid thought if it weren't Poe at the front.

Okay - but the aim of the resistance at that point is surely to preserve resources. They've lost this battle, hopelessly. The task is therefore to retreat and (re-)build, for which they mostly need experienced personnel to run operations, train and lead new recruits. They need that much more than they need to destroy one of the enemy's many, large ships.

That's much more reasonable a point. But it's not what they say. They considered the ships they lost to be their main battle force, which is stupid. So at best they were accidentally correct.

Maintaining troop morale is also a job of a commanding officer. Like I said in another post, whatever punishment Poe and the rest of the mutineers would get in a court martial, they would also investigate the commanding officer to see why they mutinied.

There's a difference between "maintaining troop morale" and "assuaging the fragile egos of cocky middle ranking officers".

The problem starts and ends at Poe. He's the really unhappy one, who actively incites the mutiny. He could have gone to cheer up the grunts, told them an experienced officer Leia herself trusted was in charge, and she could get them out of it. He doesn't, because he has taken a dislike to Holdo, which he does basically on her appearance. He thinks he knows better - even having already been taken down a peg by Leia hasn't taught him the lesson. Poe might fit the bill for the reckless, maverick hero... but he's a bad soldier, and the situation needs a soldier. He's the incompetent one.

Funnily enough I looked up Holdo's backstory as part of this thread and she's not a military commander. I mean, she is, but she kinda just walked into the resistance and was given a vice-admiral position. By the looks of it for being Leia's friend back in the day. Not that she was part of the rebellion, she was just Leia's friend.

But in any case, explaining your reasoning for your daring plan that's going to determine the fates of all your people is hardly "assuaging a fragile ego". That plan was going to determine if they were going to live or die, I'd want to know why you think it's a good idea.

Give it up already, Crimson. By this stage you're just embarrassing yourself. You've clearly thought about it a lot, which is admirable, but your argument itself just isn't holding any water. Let it go.

No, come up with a real argument instead of sniping.

 

[twistedmic]

Oh is that what's happening? Is the remainder of the Republic fleet going to come over the space ridge with ride of the Valkyries playing? It won't matter, they were already inferior to the FO fleet before they were mostly wiped out.

I don't know if the remaining Republic fleet will show up in the next movie, I'm just stating a reason why they have not shown up in The Last Jedi. So, according to you the Republic fleet is worthless because they were heavily damaged by a surprise attack, right? Does that mean that the U.S. fleet was worthless during WWII because they were nearly wiped out by the Japanese surprise attack?

The FO capital ships (like the one destroyed) have medical facilities, easily enough to temporarily reinforce a damaged or destroyed base. Not to mention that's unusually underhanded for the good guys to do, but honestly I would love to see heroes play dirty pool like that.

That doesn't change the fact that the First Order will have to pull their resources away from their normal positions, which would given the Resistance a weaker front to attack.

Funnily enough the agriculture thing was done in an anime for basically the same reason, but I'm not sure it'd be as effective against the FO. For one destroying one agricultural center isn't a very big dent when FTL exists, second the FO won't play games and will just wipe a world's population out to take their food if they need to maintain their battle fleet in the now.

Then maybe the Resistance could destroy more than one agricultural center. And if destroying one agricultural center weakens that particular sector of First Order space that gives the Resistance a weaker target to attack, which would further weaken and destabilize that sector.

This is something they should have been doing before. But as established despite 30 years of preparation, the resistance didn't bother to survey the FO's base of operations at all. So who knows how well defended they are. Remember that "key force" Poe lost could about take on one ship when it doesn't defend itself properly.

Where does it state that the First Order was building up for the past thirty years? Where does it state that the Resistance, which is a separate entity from the Republic, has been around for thirty years? Where does it state that people knew about the First Order for thirty years?
How do you know that the Resistance has not surveyed First Order facilities? How do you know that they have not been raiding First Order facilities for years?
Those ships that Poe lost did just fine against the Dreadnought itself, but they were ravaged by the hundreds, if not thousands, of TIE fighters that the Dreadnought carried. Other First Order facilities might not have as many TIE fighters on site.

See the "gritty realism" possibility for the next movie. I beat you to that punch and Poe losing those ships doesn't have an affect on the strategy in that case.

Poe throwing a temper tantrum and staging a short-lived mutiny led directly to hundreds of Resistance members being killed. Had he obeyed orders and not bet the future of the Resistance on a Hail Mary plan with an exceedingly slim chance of success then Holdo's plan would have succeeded. The First Order did not know to look for a bunch of unarmed, unshielded transports hiding behind the Raddus

Ah, if but they were launching that flanking maneuver. Instead Poe took something they had no plans to take at the time. Because thinking a handful of fighters and bombers could take a capital ship would be a stupid thought if it weren't Poe at the front.

So you are saying that Poe, by virtue of his very existence, can turn a dip-shit, near-suicidal idea into a valid military tactic? What is it about Poe that makes him capable of such feats?

Maintaining troop morale is also a job of a commanding officer. Like I said in another post, whatever punishment Poe and the rest of the mutineers would get in a court martial, they would also investigate the commanding officer to see why they mutinied.

"She didn't tell me what she was planning." and "She didn't want to use my super awesome plan that relied on dozens of variables and could easily have failed several steps along the way." are not valid reasons for mutinying. They would most likely be shot, jettisoned into space or imprisoned for the rest of their lives with that excuse.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Oh is that what's happening? Is the remainder of the Republic fleet going to come over the space ridge with ride of the Valkyries playing? It won't matter, they were already inferior to the FO fleet before they were mostly wiped out.

I don't know if the remaining Republic fleet will show up in the next movie, I'm just stating a reason why they have not shown up in The Last Jedi. So, according to you the Republic fleet is worthless because they were heavily damaged by a surprise attack, right? Does that mean that the U.S. fleet was worthless during WWII because they were nearly wiped out by the Japanese surprise attack?

The US fleet wasn't? The Japanese didn't even hit the aircraft carriers, which were it's ability to project is power across the Pacific. They pulled off a strong alpha strike, but it didn't actually stop the US from acting.

Meanwhile, the Republic basically doesn't exist anymore.

The FO capital ships (like the one destroyed) have medical facilities, easily enough to temporarily reinforce a damaged or destroyed base. Not to mention that's unusually underhanded for the good guys to do, but honestly I would love to see heroes play dirty pool like that.

That doesn't change the fact that the First Order will have to pull their resources away from their normal positions, which would given the Resistance a weaker front to attack.

With what? The ~30 attack craft that Poe had? How weak does the front have to be for them to win a battle?

Funnily enough the agriculture thing was done in an anime for basically the same reason, but I'm not sure it'd be as effective against the FO. For one destroying one agricultural center isn't a very big dent when FTL exists, second the FO won't play games and will just wipe a world's population out to take their food if they need to maintain their battle fleet in the now.

Then maybe the Resistance could destroy more than one agricultural center. And if destroying one agricultural center weakens that particular sector of First Order space that gives the Resistance a weaker target to attack, which would further weaken and destabilize that sector.

Once again, with what? They only have 30 attack craft as their key combat force.

This is something they should have been doing before. But as established despite 30 years of preparation, the resistance didn't bother to survey the FO's base of operations at all. So who knows how well defended they are. Remember that "key force" Poe lost could about take on one ship when it doesn't defend itself properly.

Where does it state that the First Order was building up for the past thirty years? Where does it state that the Resistance, which is a separate entity from the Republic, has been around for thirty years? Where does it state that people knew about the First Order for thirty years?
How do you know that the Resistance has not surveyed First Order facilities? How do you know that they have not been raiding First Order facilities for years?
Those ships that Poe lost did just fine against the Dreadnought itself, but they were ravaged by the hundreds, if not thousands, of TIE fighters that the Dreadnought carried. Other First Order facilities might not have as many TIE fighters on site.

It's all in EU stuff. It's all canon stuff from comic books and the like. Hawki and I have been referring to it before. The short answer is that both the Republic and the resistance have been aware of the FO since they started up. The Republic thought they were idiots who weren't going to do anything while the resistance treated them as a threat and built up their forces to fend them off.

That went well.

See the "gritty realism" possibility for the next movie. I beat you to that punch and Poe losing those ships doesn't have an affect on the strategy in that case.

Poe throwing a temper tantrum and staging a short-lived mutiny led directly to hundreds of Resistance members being killed. Had he obeyed orders and not bet the future of the Resistance on a Hail Mary plan with an exceedingly slim chance of success then Holdo's plan would have succeeded. The First Order did not know to look for a bunch of unarmed, unshielded transports hiding behind the Raddus

Too bad Holdo didn't explain her plan beforehand and just expected the crew to have no questions about how they were going to survive. Woops.

But in any case, that doesn't change the fact that Leia and Holdo overreacted in the first place to losing the fighters and bombers.

Ah, if but they were launching that flanking maneuver. Instead Poe took something they had no plans to take at the time. Because thinking a handful of fighters and bombers could take a capital ship would be a stupid thought if it weren't Poe at the front.

So you are saying that Poe, by virtue of his very existence, can turn a dip-shit, near-suicidal idea into a valid military tactic? What is it about Poe that makes him capable of such feats?

Hot blooded heroics. That plan shouldn't have worked because the point defense turrets should have wiped out the attack before they got close. But Poe took them out by himself without taking a hit. By the time the dreadnought realized what was happening, it was too late to scramble the TIE fighters.

Maintaining troop morale is also a job of a commanding officer. Like I said in another post, whatever punishment Poe and the rest of the mutineers would get in a court martial, they would also investigate the commanding officer to see why they mutinied.

"She didn't tell me what she was planning." and "She didn't want to use my super awesome plan that relied on dozens of variables and could easily have failed several steps along the way." are not valid reasons for mutinying. They would most likely be shot, jettisoned into space or imprisoned for the rest of their lives with that excuse.

No, "she tried to kill us all and wouldn't tell us why" is a pretty good reason to be wary of such a commander.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

I just wanted to say that I fucking called it, I was calling it that Disney's Star wars movies will cause the same negative backlash the Prequels did, but now in this era of the internet.

I swear to you this situation would happen exactly as it is now if the prequels first came out as they are in the present day.

 

[Squilookle]

I'm just the outside observer here, Crimson. Sorry to say it, but you're not convincing anyone. I'm just letting you know this so that you can see how far down the rabbit hole you're falling before it's too late.

I just wanted to say that I fucking called it, I was calling it that Disney's Star wars movies will cause the same negative backlash the Prequels did, but now in this era of the internet.

I swear to you this situation would happen exactly as it is now if the prequels first came out as they are in the present day.

Hahaha, no.

This debate has erupted from very divided opinions on a very divisive film. The prequels got negative backlash from pretty much everyone. And that's because the prequels sucked.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

I'm just the outside observer here, Crimson. Sorry to say it, but you're not convincing anyone. I'm just letting you know this so that you can see how far down the rabbit hole you're falling before it's too late.

It's that you presume to speak for everyone that's the problem. I already know, there are people reading this and agreeing with me. It is, in fact, divisive. And I'm just pointing out that some of the reasoning in this movie makes no sense, even by SW standards.

 

[Squilookle]

I'm just the outside observer here, Crimson. Sorry to say it, but you're not convincing anyone. I'm just letting you know this so that you can see how far down the rabbit hole you're falling before it's too late.

It's that you presume to speak for everyone that's the problem. I already know, there are people reading this and agreeing with me. It is, in fact, divisive. And I'm just pointing out that some of the reasoning in this movie makes no sense, even by SW standards.

Then I suggest you urge those who agree with you to actually speak up- because as it stands your argument looks as flimsy as the proverbial snowball in hell.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

I'm just the outside observer here, Crimson. Sorry to say it, but you're not convincing anyone. I'm just letting you know this so that you can see how far down the rabbit hole you're falling before it's too late.

It's that you presume to speak for everyone that's the problem. I already know, there are people reading this and agreeing with me. It is, in fact, divisive. And I'm just pointing out that some of the reasoning in this movie makes no sense, even by SW standards.

Then I suggest you urge those who agree with you to actually speak up- because as it stands your argument looks as flimsy as the proverbial snowball in hell.

They've been reminding me of stuff I either forgot because it's been a while since I've seen the movie, or the kind of nerds who know too much.

Like that Holdo being a vice-admiral is a product of nepotism.

 

[Kwak]

Some valid points.

 

[Agema]

Funnily enough I looked up Holdo's backstory as part of this thread and she's not a military commander. I mean, she is, but she kinda just walked into the resistance and was given a vice-admiral position. By the looks of it for being Leia's friend back in the day. Not that she was part of the rebellion, she was just Leia's friend.

One might note the Rebellion / Resistance have a great deal of prior form at that:

- "Hi, I've just met this smuggler!"
- "Great - make him a general, he can lead our mission-critical assault on the Endor moonbase"

Whatever her non-military background, Holdo's military career evidently includes a very significant success at some point - it's referenced by Poe himself in the film.

But in any case, explaining your reasoning for your daring plan that's going to determine the fates of all your people is hardly "assuaging a fragile ego". That plan was going to determine if they were going to live or die, I'd want to know why you think it's a good idea.

Holdo is an admiral (or at minimum acting admiral). Poe is how many ranks below, precisely? Four, maybe? What the hell business does he have demanding answers from her? If it were the modern US army, what do you think an army general would say to a Lt. Col. who busted into his office demanding to know what his plans were? Especially after that Lt. Col. just got his entire battalion massacred by refusing to follow orders.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

I'm just the outside observer here, Crimson. Sorry to say it, but you're not convincing anyone. I'm just letting you know this so that you can see how far down the rabbit hole you're falling before it's too late.

I just wanted to say that I fucking called it, I was calling it that Disney's Star wars movies will cause the same negative backlash the Prequels did, but now in this era of the internet.

I swear to you this situation would happen exactly as it is now if the prequels first came out as they are in the present day.

Hahaha, no.

This debate has erupted from very divided opinions on a very divisive film. The prequels got negative backlash from pretty much everyone. And that's because the prequels sucked.

But it spawned this divisive outburst and created dozens of videos criticizing it and created hotly debated discussion. Exactly as I predicted.

 

[Squilookle]

I'm just the outside observer here, Crimson. Sorry to say it, but you're not convincing anyone. I'm just letting you know this so that you can see how far down the rabbit hole you're falling before it's too late.

I just wanted to say that I fucking called it, I was calling it that Disney's Star wars movies will cause the same negative backlash the Prequels did, but now in this era of the internet.

I swear to you this situation would happen exactly as it is now if the prequels first came out as they are in the present day.

Hahaha, no.

This debate has erupted from very divided opinions on a very divisive film. The prequels got negative backlash from pretty much everyone. And that's because the prequels sucked.

But it spawned this divisive outburst and created dozens of videos criticizing it and created hotly debated discussion. Exactly as I predicted.

In that case congratulations. But that isn't what happened when the Prequels came out.

There was barely any debate about whether they were good or not. Most of the debate was about to which level exactly they sucked.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

I'm just the outside observer here, Crimson. Sorry to say it, but you're not convincing anyone. I'm just letting you know this so that you can see how far down the rabbit hole you're falling before it's too late.

I just wanted to say that I fucking called it, I was calling it that Disney's Star wars movies will cause the same negative backlash the Prequels did, but now in this era of the internet.

I swear to you this situation would happen exactly as it is now if the prequels first came out as they are in the present day.

Hahaha, no.

This debate has erupted from very divided opinions on a very divisive film. The prequels got negative backlash from pretty much everyone. And that's because the prequels sucked.

But it spawned this divisive outburst and created dozens of videos criticizing it and created hotly debated discussion. Exactly as I predicted.

In that case congratulations. But that isn't what happened when the Prequels came out.

There was barely any debate about whether they were good or not. Most of the debate was about to which level exactly they sucked.

I was just unimpressed with the movie, because as I said I think the old Expanded Universe had better stuff then the official movies.

But so far people defending The Last Jedi are like me defending Batman v Superman awhile back.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

the old Expanded Universe had better stuff then the official movies.

Yup, and even though I might get crucified for this, I think it had better stuff than even the original trilogy.

So fuck Disney.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Funnily enough I looked up Holdo's backstory as part of this thread and she's not a military commander. I mean, she is, but she kinda just walked into the resistance and was given a vice-admiral position. By the looks of it for being Leia's friend back in the day. Not that she was part of the rebellion, she was just Leia's friend.

One might note the Rebellion / Resistance have a great deal of prior form at that:

- "Hi, I've just met this smuggler!"
- "Great - make him a general, he can lead our mission-critical assault on the Endor moonbase"

Whatever her non-military background, Holdo's military career evidently includes a very significant success at some point - it's referenced by Poe himself in the film.

You know what, fair. This is just the first time (on screen) where it doesn't work out.

But in any case, explaining your reasoning for your daring plan that's going to determine the fates of all your people is hardly "assuaging a fragile ego". That plan was going to determine if they were going to live or die, I'd want to know why you think it's a good idea.

Holdo is an admiral (or at minimum acting admiral). Poe is how many ranks below, precisely? Four, maybe? What the hell business does he have demanding answers from her? If it were the modern US army, what do you think an army general would say to a Lt. Col. who busted into his office demanding to know what his plans were? Especially after that Lt. Col. just got his entire battalion massacred by refusing to follow orders.

Depends. But I will say that current tactical doctrine is to share your plans with at least your officers. The "your job is to follow orders, not question them" line of thinking stopped by WWII (on top of being something villains say) because troops generally execute your orders better when they understand why they're doing what they're doing, they can still execute your plan if you get taken out, and it prevents troops from taking actions that don't help in the plan or even run counter to it (hint hint on that last one).

Not to mention "shut up and follow your orders" is a pretty fascist thing to say for the resistance.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

the old Expanded Universe had better stuff then the official movies.

Yup, and even though I might get crucified for this, I think it had better stuff than even the original trilogy.

So fuck Disney.

Indeed.

IMO SWTOR was the zenith in just overall presentation to how Star Wars should be.

 

[Natemans]

the old Expanded Universe had better stuff then the official movies.

Yup, and even though I might get crucified for this, I think it had better stuff than even the original trilogy.

So fuck Disney.

Am I the only one glad they got rid of the old EU?

No offense, but I got really turned off by a lot of problems in the later EU stuff.

 

[Trooper924]

the old Expanded Universe had better stuff then the official movies.

Yup, and even though I might get crucified for this, I think it had better stuff than even the original trilogy.

So fuck Disney.

Am I the only one glad they got rid of the old EU?

Mainly I'm glad they stopped the never-ending cycle of the novels trying to fix the problems caused by the previous set of novels, only to create even more problems.

I'm also glad everything that everything Karen Traviss did with the Mandalorians got tossed in the trash.