Exactly. The Resistance is a military organisation. Subordinates are under no obligation whatsoever to know a plan. It's like Tom Hanks busting into Churchill's office and demanding to know the details of Operation Overlord.Adam Jensen said:
Mr Plinkett Last Jedi Review
- Thread starter Marik2
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Because he's just been demoted for (A) ignoring orders and (B) getting a lot of people killed in a pointless victory that arguably means nothing in the long term.Johnny Novgorod said:
Gee, I wonder why someone doesn't trust captain reckless moron who, the second he figures out the plan, goes and blabs it in earshot of the guy who sells the information directly to the first order.
Are you serious?Vrex360 said:
I mean, sincerely, are you serious?
The film's been out for over half a year and is perhaps the most divisive, debated and widely both criticized and praised film of the decade, with thousands of hours of content made about it. Yet somehow you've missed every counterargument about the tonal imbalance, the poor script, the character assassination of one of cinema's most beloved heroes, the sacrificing of common sense for spectacle, essentially breaking the universe's already flimsy logic and rules in half with concepts like lightspeed kamikaze, bullshit "subverting of expectations", "tell, don't show" filmmaking and the list goes on. You've missed all of that, and seen nothing but the tired old "sjw beta cucks bwaa bwaa" horseshit?
I do have to wonder if a certain crowd would be calling Don McLean an 'SJW' if they released the American Pie album in today's world.PsychedelicDiamond said:
I have a feeling Everybody Loves Me, Baby is pretty good description of current U.S. foreign policy of the 21st century.
Did he spam the actresses with graphic rape and death threats and highly gendered (and racist) insults to the point where many of them had to straight up delete their social media? If the answer is, no, then no it's not.Eacaraxe said:
Yeah, exactly. Why should we need to question that.
Dude Poe repeatedly ignored and openly defied her direct orders not to engage with the Dreadnaught and in the process of his bombing run multiple bombers and many lives were lost. Leia was entirely within her rights to call him out for that and frankly he should be grateful all he got was a slap (that is now 'assault' apparently), most people would have him detained or even executed for that.
As far as 'morale' goes I'd argue that in a crisis situation like what they found themselves in Leia is kind of obligated to show strength and authority and make an example of people who break ranks because it conveys strong leadership. A leader who doesn't punish people who directly disobey her orders is conveying to her underlings that disobeying her orders is no big deal, which means her authority could get undermined really quickly.
That's a fluke. It in no way validates that Poe had the right idea about the Dreadnaught in the sense of wasting resources to destroy it rather than just escaping was the right call, it just proves his 'hunch' was correct and hunches are no indication
of tactical ability. No one knew the First Order was going to pursue them through hyperspace and while yes Poe did ultimately make the right call as it turns out if the First Order had not been able to pursue them then all those pilots would have ended up dying for absolutely nothing. Coincidence =/= tactical foresight.
No because again 'gut instinct' is a terrible approach to strategy and a one time lucky fluke doesn't in any way suggest that Poe, a squadron leader, has major tactical insight. You're basically asking her to sacrifice pragmatism for wild gambles.
I gotta say it's not great that you think a woman's near decade long highly decorated career of strategic victories should lose out and take secondary priority to a man's 'gut instinct'.
Because she's doing her job? I love how you assume the only way she could possibly be informed of the situation is if a man told her about it. And she sidelines him because she doesn't fucking need him to do anything but sit down and shut up.
No one except the people who were on a need to know basis, Poe was not 'need to know'.
Congrats you found a minor plot hole, say did you watch the video I linked? Plot holes like that and plans full of contrivance where drama comes in place of logic are a dime a dozen in Star Wars. See Luke's idiotic plan of infiltrating Jabba's palace.
Or Poe could just suck it up and sit down?
I also love how despite being the leader Holdo is expected to suck up to Poe.
Look I feel you don't understand something important about Poe, you keep acting like Poe is this rational clear headed pragmatic leader type but he's really not or rather he was not at that point in the movie. As I said before he started this movie defying orders, getting people killed and delaying the Resistance's efforts to escape. Yes he did bring down a Dreadnaught but still he was headstrong, stubborn and eager to get into the fray. He has a proven history of wearing his heart on his sleeve and going all in and not really considering the consequences of his actions. He is still a very noble character who does a lot of good but at his core, at least at the start of the story, he is a 'hero' which is very different from a 'leader' and this whole arc is about how he learns to become a leader.
Had Holdo told Poe the plan there was still a chance that he'd reject it or try to find another way because Crait is a risky venture and it could have gone really badly and there's every chance he would have told other people and gone over Holdo's head to try and plan some counter attack 'just in case the First Order find us' which has the effect of letting slip that the plan is 'abandon ship' which would as you mentioned before 'be bad for morale'. Again he hasn't proven himself good at keeping his emotions in check and making the harder decisions.
That's why Holdo doesn't drop everything to make sure Poe is accomodated. She expected him to do his duty and follow his orders and he couldn't even manage to do that. But after seeing what Holdo was always planning and after her sacrifice Poe comes out of the experience more complete. Yes it's a little contrived but it is narrative serving plot, Poe wasn't always leadership material but he's clearly being set up as going from pilot to like general so it is fitting that the story shows his progression no?
That we can agree on, there is so much fat that needed trimming from that movie. But I still maintain that what the movie was going for worked better, Poe was one way, after his experience, he became another way.
Yeah I don't really dispute that either.
Star Wars also has space magic, laser swords, consensual incest kissing and little green muppet men who are the beacons of all wisdom in the universe. It has way more in common with fantasy and fairy tales than actual military sci fi and again contrived plans by the heroes for the sake of increasing drama are not new.
Okay I want you to visualize something for me.
Imagine a yin and yang circle, on one side there are the hardcore fans, lore aficionados, 'anti-sjw's', critics and people who just did not like the movie. On the other side there are the other hardcore fans, the 'alt rights', the incels, the bigots, the people who harassed Rose's actress with racial slurs on instagram, the guys who re-edited the movie to get rid of all the women, the gate keepers, the trolls and the bigots.
Got your two sides?
Now imagine it spinning at super fast speed, like a top, spinning so fast in fact that the colors almost blend together until you can't even tell one from the other anymore. A bit like this:
(Anyone with epilepsy should probably not watch)
And that weird disorienting mass of grey? That's the discourse around the 'anti TLJ bandwagon'. For every legitimate critique made in good faith there seem to be at least ten 'wimmin shuldnt be in ma star wars' or 'this is why white genocide is real' type contributions. When a huge mass of people are all screaming over the top of each other it is hard to spot legit critics from bad faith acting bigots and trolls, certainly not helped when every single 'TLJ is a bad movie' youtube video only helps rile up the base of bigots and embolden them and in turn far right pundits knowing they can mine that anger for easy outraged clicks which they can use to subtly alter the conversation and smuggle their hate filled talking points into the discourse (and when freaking Info Wars even jumped in on the cashcow) all this leads to is an anger filled quagmire that is not actually all that easy to decipher who is being critical in good faith and who's a troll, or how to call out the trolls without insulting the critics and worst of all how to respond to the critics withoutemboldening the trolls.
And again a lot of the Star Wars fans are really fucking toxic, I'm sorry not all etc but the kerfuffle around this one movie has kind of pulled the curtain away and the world is seeing how meanspirited and gate keepy and douchey Star Wars can actually be.
And while I don't think every critique of The Last Jedi is bad faith I do feel I have to point out people didn't mind all the illogical decisions made by Luke and pals during the Original Trilogy but when a woman with purple hair did it, suddenly they were outraged at story structure. You surely have to concede there ARE bigots among that discourse, surely.
Yep just you and the other 100,0000,000000,0000000,00000000 rebellious free thinkers going against the grain who've effectively ruined my youtube feed. Come on dude at this point liking the movie is 'going against the grain'.
... Because they aren't? As someone else pointed out Poe was the idiot who blurted out their plan in earshot of the guy who ended up selling them out. And Snoke's the dumbass who couldn't see how emotionally abusing the psychologically disturbed man boy would have negative consequences. And Finn's the dumb dumb who trusted a criminal behind bars with valuable information. And Hux is the moron for letting his Dreadnaught get blown up. And Kylo Ren is the idiot who fell for Luke's trap etc etc etc.
Hi, please watch the video I linked which covered all of those points so I don't have to. I also have another post down here, the bottom of which I elaborate on the frustration between legit critics and bad faith trolls that permeate the entire discourse around this movie.bartholen said:
It's unclear, but its possible.Hawki said:
By the same token, you could argue Poe getting so many people killed wouldn't matter, as Kylo's bombing run of the landing bay would have killed them all anyway.
Either way, it doesn't really change that in the moment, he made a bad call. If he was 'right' in the long run, it was by luck, not judgement, and he certainly was not making logical, well informed choices. Plus he was ignoring voices above him telling him what he didn't want to hear.
Have not always agreed with their point of view, even though they're pretty close to a lot of good points. But their review of that particular film I did disagree with the most, as it appeared they let their nostalgia get the better of them that time and fell into the double-standard such nostalgia so easily creates, putting the past enjoyment on a pedestal while applying a different standard of criticisms for the new thing.. It's not too bad, as I think everyone, no matter how self-critical they believe they are, falls for it at some point. But it has unfortunately validated others harbouring equal or stronger nostalgia with all the confirmation bias they need, in turn, validating them back, including the side-effect of those who have-less-than savoury views towards exposure to people who are surface-level different to what they're comfortable with, and have no qualms letting those people know about it.
That type of nostalgia has diminished interest in any further reference they intend to use of the film, including this recent addition. I still enjoy the rest of their work though.
That type of nostalgia has diminished interest in any further reference they intend to use of the film, including this recent addition. I still enjoy the rest of their work though.
Johnny Novgorod said:
Oh God, yeah. Twitter will not shut up and are really going overboard with it despite Mr. Plinkett being fictional. I didn't find the review funny, but comedy is subjective and it probably got others to laugh. Which is fine. I'm cool with that.
I admit going in blind here as I've not watched any of the reveiws, but as I understand it the joke with 'Mr Plinkett' is he's a serial killer who kidnaps, abuses and murders women, and (as of at least one of the prequel reviews) he's got at least one victim in waiting stashed in his basement?Natemans said:
Yeah, I can see why that kind of humour would put a lot of people off.
Who the hell wants to listen to an hour-long review in a stupid voice?
There's not much point criticising the movie when even if it's as bad as claimed, it's still more enjoyable than your review.
There's not much point criticising the movie when even if it's as bad as claimed, it's still more enjoyable than your review.
In context, that's true of 90% of major Hollywood action blockbusters these days.Adam Jensen said:
Yeah, I skipped 20 minutes ahead to see if that was just a made up voice and it does drag on. I wasn't going to say anything because that might just be how he sounds like in reality and that's a bit harsh.Agema said:
Can someone confirm this is just a play actor voice he does or whether it's his real voice? If it's a play actor voice then I already know to avoid thecommentary entirely because why would you purposely be that annoying to listen to for so long if you didn't want people to tune out?
Uh, sorry to burst your bubble, but she does do that. She does pretty much exactly that. She tells him that thing about the sun and how its not hope if you only believe in it while its in the sky, you have to trust in it at night as well or however that went.immortalfrieza said:
So essentially "Hey just because you can't see the thing doesn't mean the thing isn't there and you can't believe in it or trust it any more." She is telling him there is a plan, and even if doesn't know what it is he should trust it. And Poe accepts it and goes along with it...until he get enough glimpses to think he knows what the plan is, whereupon his temper flares and he throws a strop like a child rather than seeing if he's got things right, instantly proving everything Holdo said about him being a hothead who should be kept on a tighter leash absolutely right. If he's going to act like a baby throwing a tantrum because things aren't going the way he likes why should he be given any involvement in the plan?
Probably. It had no trouble picking off a terrestrial bunker complex from a fairly high orbit so I doubt the distance the Resistance fleet gets would have given it any trouble at allHawki said:
I watched it, and it didn't. The best summation of TLJ I've seen is in the Plinkett review. It's a short, silent movie style clip of a guy ordering wine at a restaurant. When the wine is brought, at first he looks like he's going to pour it into the wine glass, but then proceeds to pour it onto the table and smirk at the camera. That's essentially the mentality Rian Johnson seems to have directed this movie with. "Haha, I bet you weren't expecting that". Well yeah, but you could say the same thing about a guy who drives down to the gas station, pours gasoline all over himself and sets himself on fire. I've seen "subverting of expectations" used as a major defense for this film, and I really don't see why. Just because it subverts our expectations doesn't make it good or clever. Hell, I'm not even sure if it qualifies as a subversion. English is a second language to me, but as I've understood it, the term, at least in the context of cinema, implies that an audience has certain expectations for something, and is then taken by surprise when events go the completely opposite or altogether different round. Where TLJ failed the hardest for me was the "has certain expectations" part. Because I didn't have any.Vrex360 said:
The Last Jedi seems to hinge entirely on the assumption that after TFA everyone would simply expect an exact carbon copy of Empire Strikes Back. Rian Johnson pretty much confirms this when he talks about Rose and Finn meeting a "scoundrel who the audience expects to have a heart of gold". And when the viewer doesn't have those very specific expectations, the entire movie falls flat on its face so hard it embeds itself into the ground. The reveal about Rey's parents being nobodies is only shocking if one was expecting a reveal on par with the Vader one. If one didn't, the whole thing just feels anticlimactic. They build the whole thing up pretty fucking hard in TFA, but it completely deflates in TLJ. Whoever Benicio del Toro played betraying Finn and Rose is only shocking if you were expecting him to be an exact Han Solo replica. And so on and so on.
The video did talk about people complaining about Luke's death, but not about the ruination of his character. I simply don't buy, and neither do a lot of people, that the man who did what Luke Skywalker did would turn into this bitter shell of a man. The justification for him even considering killing Kylo is simply fucking laughable in comparison to what he went through in the original trilogy.
Oh, and let's not forget how this movie actively contradicts the previous installment. Remember how TFA was about Luke having left a map for the Resistance to find him... only for him to say in TLJ that he doesn't want to be found [https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQNbLKsXUAA9CZf.jpg]
I could go on but I've got work tomorrow and there's nothing to be said about this piece of crap film that would make me feel any different about it. MovieBob's olympics-level mental gymnastics were particularly insufferable. It's awful. I'll leave with this: The new Star Wars trilogy so far can be summarized as a balloon that's first pumped with air and then the person pedaling the pump changes. The new guy proceeds to let the balloon loose, deflating everything that was built up, and allowing the balloon to run in completely random, nonsensical directions to ultimately no effect. What we're left with is a withered, empty husk that's left exactly in the state it started out in.
You know it's pretty amazing how of all the current and former servicemen I know, not one sides with Holdo on the "Poe or Holdo" argument. In fact my own father pointed out that under Canadian law, while Leia's order was legal, Poe following it would not have been given the position he was in.
Also on an unrelated note, why is Leia a general anyway? I mean ignoring the fact a military rank doesn't remove her noble rank, in the OT she wasn't a part of the Alliance's military, she was a part of its civilian body, which is why the only thing she did in the OT military wise was briefing one of the squadrons of fighters, and being one of the grunts on Han's infiltration party. She should have been the civilian leader of the Resistance, not its military leader. She certainly showed no competence at the job.
And why are fleets of ships being ordered around by generals anyway?
Holdo had a morale crisis on her hands, and handled it in a textbook example of doing everything wrong every step of the way. She had no reason to withhold the plan from Poe, in fact after Kylo's attack he was shown to be the second highest ranking officer still in action, meaning he above all others would need to know what the hell was going on. In fact with the information he had available to him, his arresting Holdo was the correct course of action, which is why the crew followed him rather then siding with her. Ask any servicemen, they'll explain to you in detail why Holdo was an incompetent leader, her only positive action on screen was removing herself from the chain of command.Palindromemordnilap said:
Also on an unrelated note, why is Leia a general anyway? I mean ignoring the fact a military rank doesn't remove her noble rank, in the OT she wasn't a part of the Alliance's military, she was a part of its civilian body, which is why the only thing she did in the OT military wise was briefing one of the squadrons of fighters, and being one of the grunts on Han's infiltration party. She should have been the civilian leader of the Resistance, not its military leader. She certainly showed no competence at the job.
And why are fleets of ships being ordered around by generals anyway?
bartholen said:
IT BROKE NEW GROUND!!!
Funny thing is, ESB is an actual example of a movie that subverts our expectations. Going in people probably thought it was going to be another light hearted adventure like the first, but the big climactic battle happens right in the first act, the bad guys win (this was very rare for a movie in 1980), Luke finds out the great Jedi he was expecting to see wasn't a larger then life warrior but a little guy barely two feet tall, the Empire is always a step ahead of Han and company, Luke falls into Vader's trap, Leia doesn't save Han, Luke gets his ass kicked, we find out Ben lied about Vader killing his father, Luke tries to kill himself to avoid capture and only survives through luck, and it ends on a sombre tone rather then the upbeat one of the first movie.
Given how poorly sequels had done up to that point both critically and financially, it's easy to understand why was terrified about how the movie was going to do. A critique from some paper put it best: "It was different. No better or worst then the first, but different". No one expected a movie like ESB in 1980, nor would they have had reason to.
It also contradicts why he went to the temple in the first place. In TFA we're told he went there to study the temple, implying he was trying to learn about the old Jedi ways that had been lost. Now we're told the Jedi ways need to end, and he came to that conclusion before he even went there.
That doesn't say much. The fleets are moving, have shields, and are almost certainly at much further distances. The dreadnought could certainly hit them, but it's iffy as to whether it could do any damage.Palindromemordnilap said:
-The scoundrel with a heart of gold is a trope that exists outside Star Wars (ironically popularized in part by Star Wars itself), so subversion here works without contextual knowledge.bartholen said:
-DJ weighs into the future subversion in the shuttle scene where he gives Rose back her jewelry.
-Even if it's not subverting the expectations of the audience, it IS subverting the expectations of Finn, since his character arc is based on coming to terms with how the galaxy isn't just black and white, yet he's still committed to fighting for the "right" side.
You're kind of shooting your own point down by acknowledging that it is built up in TFA, though primarily by Rey herself. Expecting Rey's parents to be somebodies is again, a trope not specific to Star Wars. Also, I never knew anyone who didn't have some kind of theory on Rey's parents. I hoped they would be nobodies (and was validated), but many other people had different theories.
See above.
I can only agree to disagree there.
Which is a valid crticism.
Since at least Return of the Jedi, which not only has Lando directing attack squadrons, but somehow gets the post after being with the Alliance for a year.Zontar said:
Though this is the same Alliance that made Han a general within three years, so, um, yay?
Mr. Plinkett supposed to be this disgusting, fat, smelly, basement dwelling slob of a nerd stereotype(But a movie!nerd. Important, because he's old instead in his 20/30s, and owns the house and the basement. Who yearns for the simpler times of his youth, when mobies were good and on casettes) taken to a logical extreme.Windknight said:
Over time his character de
It's a rich lore. Oh, and lots of poop jokes.