Vrex360 said:
Okay, not answering guilt by association, straw men, or red herrings. You want to play that game, you can do it without me. I'm talking about
my criticisms of the movie, thank you very much, and I intend to keep it that way.
First, why should we question Leia's and Holdo's actions? Well, in the first case the character has a well-established pedigree in the franchise and, bare minimum, it behooves us to check her characterization in TLJ for consistency and fidelity. The last we saw of Leia, it was of a young woman who was brash and hotheaded in her own way, but mature well beyond her age and quickly growing into her role as a leader. We even see her -- for the little she is in the film -- in TFA as a mature stateswoman who carries herself with great aplomb and sense of decorum regardless of circumstance, which flows from her character growth in the OT perfectly. Her characterization in TLJ is, in my opinion, closer to ANH than any film in which the character was seen since, which demonstrates a
regression in her characterization.
And yes, a slap is an assault. The definition of assault is literally to physically attack someone. That's what Leia did. She assaulted Poe. If you don't like that, I would direct you to the nearest dictionary so that you may look up the definition of the word yourself.
As far as "that was a fluke", well you're the one bringing up the space wizards, laser swords, and the presence of a unifying and guiding presence in the SW universe that ensures that, in the context of the universe we're discussing, there are no such thing as flukes or coincidences. That's something Leia would know, being Luke's twin sister and Vader's daughter and all, and considering
Holdo of all people is canonically Force-sensitive, she'd know that too, especially considering understanding of the presence and importance of the Force isn't limited to only Jedi in the Star Wars universe.
I mean, beyond that, you'd be surprised the importance of instinct, intuition, and informed guesswork that goes into successful military options.
TLJ is Holdo's first appearance. Her entire background is listed in throwaway lines in one scene. Her writing in the film must be consistent with those lines in order to have any parsimony, and at least in my opinion Johnson failed horrifically at that.
And, here's the thing about lines of argument such as yours. Accepting a sitrep from the senior flight officer isn't suborning herself to a man. Neither is keeping said senior officer in the loop about planning, or making a proposal she instrumentalize him -- as a strategic asset -- in her plan. Expecting military leaders to utilize every strategic asset at their disposal to maximize their chances of success while minimizing cost, doesn't magically transform itself into misogyny when and if those strategic assets have a penis.
Now, at this point we have to consider the acceptance of women characters in past movies. Leia was characterized as a gung-ho, no fucks given, hotheaded military leader from the first minutes of ANH. People loved gung-ho, no fucks given, Leia. Why? Because even though it was a hail mary pass against insurmountable odds, it made sense. It was her only play.
Before the CG series, Mon Mothma got less screen time than Holdo did in her first scene alone, and people loved the fuck out of her.
She planned Endor, and she was the one to deliver the briefing, yet people loved the fuck out of her. Because she was characterized as a no-nonsense, level-headed, diplomat and strategist whose plans were sensible and easily understood from initiation to conclusion, even though they were
also hail mary plays with little if any chance of success.
Yet in TLJ, we have Holdo who concocted a pretty smart plan that had an extremely high chance of success given the odds and developing situation. Costly, hail mary pass? sure, but as you said when
hasn't that been the case in Star Wars? It went to shit because she didn't communicate it. So, you have to ask yourself: why
do fans reject Holdo, when they loved Leia and Mon Mothma?
Because Rian Johnson wrote Holdo to be stupid. I'm sure that wasn't his intent, but that's what happened. And, I can only speak for myself, but that's almost entirely why I'm pissed at him --
BECAUSE of the way he wrote women characters. SW is a space opera franchise flush with meaningful, good, women characters, and Johnson took a steaming shit on that particular part of the SW legacy.
Now, Poe. Poe's not the idiot who had the conversation about the whole damn plan on speakerphone. The code breaker
probably would have figured it out when they needed him to break into the tracking device's room, anyhow. Not that it mattered, BB-H8 blew the whole thing by being a BB droid and the First Order would have gotten their information anyways. I think the First Order probably would have figured it out by the fact
they were trying to break into the tracking device's room in the first place.
So, let's discuss an alternate scenario. How about Holdo brought Poe into the loop on her plan, Poe was considering mutinying anyways, and tried to bring Finn along for the ride. Except, Rose lays into him for causing her sister's death, and it triggers a massive argument between the three characters. Rose walks away having gotten some catharsis for her sister's death, Finn walks away with a better understanding of his place in the Resistance and those who count on him, and Poe walks away with a more personalized understanding his choices have a consequence in terms of lives.
That triggers Poe to decide, "no more deaths today", and he goes all-in on Holdo's plan. There's your middle act, the emotional backbone of the movie apart from Rey on Ahch-To, and "subversion!" in the form the mid-movie action comes not in the form of blasters and lightsabers, but words. And, suddenly,
everything that happened before in the movie, and will happen later, comes into sharp focus without, you know, contradicting the film's own themes on the most fundamental levels.
As far as everyone else, they at least have their moments of Not Being Stupid. Something sorely deprived of the women characters...and that brings us back to my original point, Johnson's writing is misogynist AF, and no accusations of misogyny on those who call it out will change that.