Mr Plinkett Last Jedi Review

[Johnny Novgorod]

This may not be the strongest Plinkett video but it's got my favorite internet car crash foaming at the mouth on social media.
Good enough.

Oh God, yeah. Twitter will not shut up and are really going overboard with it despite Mr. Plinkett being fictional. I didn't find the review funny, but comedy is subjective and it probably got others to laugh. Which is fine. I'm cool with that.

If I don't see a 20 minute PLOT HOLES DON'T MATTER video first thing Monday on the front page I'm going to be disappointed.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Can anybody give an intelligent reason for Laura Dern to stubbornly hold back her plan from Poe/her troops, other than giving Poe, Finn and Rose something to do?

The entire resistance depends on that information staying secret, so I'm guessing that it was a military secret on a need-to-know basis only. You can't risk something that important leaking to the enemy.

By that rationale why aren't leaders keeping rebels in the dark about everything, just in case something leaks out?
I understand the logic but it seems like a shoestring excuse considering at no point is it established Holdo doesn't trust Poe (or anybody else) or that the alliance is in any danger of spies. If that were the case lying and demoralizing your troops seems like a poor strategy. And in any case I don't agree with "blindly follow your leaders" as a lesson in Star Wars.

To me it's just a plot contrivance just so we can get to a "told you so" moment. Same deal with Rose preventing Finn from sacrificing himself (while potentially killing the two of them, as well as everybody else at the base) while Holdo... sacrifices herself.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

Snip.

Okay, not answering guilt by association, straw men, or red herrings. You want to play that game, you can do it without me. I'm talking about my criticisms of the movie, thank you very much, and I intend to keep it that way.

First, why should we question Leia's and Holdo's actions? Well, in the first case the character has a well-established pedigree in the franchise and, bare minimum, it behooves us to check her characterization in TLJ for consistency and fidelity. The last we saw of Leia, it was of a young woman who was brash and hotheaded in her own way, but mature well beyond her age and quickly growing into her role as a leader. We even see her -- for the little she is in the film -- in TFA as a mature stateswoman who carries herself with great aplomb and sense of decorum regardless of circumstance, which flows from her character growth in the OT perfectly. Her characterization in TLJ is, in my opinion, closer to ANH than any film in which the character was seen since, which demonstrates a regression in her characterization.

And yes, a slap is an assault. The definition of assault is literally to physically attack someone. That's what Leia did. She assaulted Poe. If you don't like that, I would direct you to the nearest dictionary so that you may look up the definition of the word yourself.

As far as "that was a fluke", well you're the one bringing up the space wizards, laser swords, and the presence of a unifying and guiding presence in the SW universe that ensures that, in the context of the universe we're discussing, there are no such thing as flukes or coincidences. That's something Leia would know, being Luke's twin sister and Vader's daughter and all, and considering Holdo of all people is canonically Force-sensitive, she'd know that too, especially considering understanding of the presence and importance of the Force isn't limited to only Jedi in the Star Wars universe.

I mean, beyond that, you'd be surprised the importance of instinct, intuition, and informed guesswork that goes into successful military options.

TLJ is Holdo's first appearance. Her entire background is listed in throwaway lines in one scene. Her writing in the film must be consistent with those lines in order to have any parsimony, and at least in my opinion Johnson failed horrifically at that.

And, here's the thing about lines of argument such as yours. Accepting a sitrep from the senior flight officer isn't suborning herself to a man. Neither is keeping said senior officer in the loop about planning, or making a proposal she instrumentalize him -- as a strategic asset -- in her plan. Expecting military leaders to utilize every strategic asset at their disposal to maximize their chances of success while minimizing cost, doesn't magically transform itself into misogyny when and if those strategic assets have a penis.

Now, at this point we have to consider the acceptance of women characters in past movies. Leia was characterized as a gung-ho, no fucks given, hotheaded military leader from the first minutes of ANH. People loved gung-ho, no fucks given, Leia. Why? Because even though it was a hail mary pass against insurmountable odds, it made sense. It was her only play.

Before the CG series, Mon Mothma got less screen time than Holdo did in her first scene alone, and people loved the fuck out of her. She planned Endor, and she was the one to deliver the briefing, yet people loved the fuck out of her. Because she was characterized as a no-nonsense, level-headed, diplomat and strategist whose plans were sensible and easily understood from initiation to conclusion, even though they were also hail mary plays with little if any chance of success.

Yet in TLJ, we have Holdo who concocted a pretty smart plan that had an extremely high chance of success given the odds and developing situation. Costly, hail mary pass? sure, but as you said when hasn't that been the case in Star Wars? It went to shit because she didn't communicate it. So, you have to ask yourself: why do fans reject Holdo, when they loved Leia and Mon Mothma?

Because Rian Johnson wrote Holdo to be stupid. I'm sure that wasn't his intent, but that's what happened. And, I can only speak for myself, but that's almost entirely why I'm pissed at him -- BECAUSE of the way he wrote women characters. SW is a space opera franchise flush with meaningful, good, women characters, and Johnson took a steaming shit on that particular part of the SW legacy.

Now, Poe. Poe's not the idiot who had the conversation about the whole damn plan on speakerphone. The code breaker probably would have figured it out when they needed him to break into the tracking device's room, anyhow. Not that it mattered, BB-H8 blew the whole thing by being a BB droid and the First Order would have gotten their information anyways. I think the First Order probably would have figured it out by the fact they were trying to break into the tracking device's room in the first place.

So, let's discuss an alternate scenario. How about Holdo brought Poe into the loop on her plan, Poe was considering mutinying anyways, and tried to bring Finn along for the ride. Except, Rose lays into him for causing her sister's death, and it triggers a massive argument between the three characters. Rose walks away having gotten some catharsis for her sister's death, Finn walks away with a better understanding of his place in the Resistance and those who count on him, and Poe walks away with a more personalized understanding his choices have a consequence in terms of lives.

That triggers Poe to decide, "no more deaths today", and he goes all-in on Holdo's plan. There's your middle act, the emotional backbone of the movie apart from Rey on Ahch-To, and "subversion!" in the form the mid-movie action comes not in the form of blasters and lightsabers, but words. And, suddenly, everything that happened before in the movie, and will happen later, comes into sharp focus without, you know, contradicting the film's own themes on the most fundamental levels.

As far as everyone else, they at least have their moments of Not Being Stupid. Something sorely deprived of the women characters...and that brings us back to my original point, Johnson's writing is misogynist AF, and no accusations of misogyny on those who call it out will change that.

 

[Palindromemordnilap_v1legacy]

Holdo had a morale crisis on her hands, and handled it in a textbook example of doing everything wrong every step of the way.

You'll excuse me if I don't think the textbooks you think you know don't quite cover evacuating a planet and finding out your enemy can track you through hyperspace

She had no reason to withhold the plan from Poe, in fact after Kylo's attack he was shown to be the second highest ranking officer still in action, meaning he above all others would need to know what the hell was going on. In fact with the information he had available to him, his arresting Holdo was the correct course of action, which is why the crew followed him rather then siding with her. Ask any servicemen, they'll explain to you in detail why Holdo was an incompetent leader, her only positive action on screen was removing herself from the chain of command.

I seriously doubt Poe is the second highest ranking officer there. With his demotion he's only got a few fighters under command, there are people there commanding entire cruisers. He expects to be made the one in charge, clearly, but thats more because of his personality. Reality kicks in and they go with someone who actually has leadership experience.
As for "no reason to withhold the plan from Poe" how about because he might react badly to it because its not the dramatic solution he wants? You know, like exactly what he goes and does? And why does she need a reason to tell him every detail of the plan? She tells him there is a plan and he should trust it...and he flies off the handle in a completely unprofessional manner.

Also on an unrelated note, why is Leia a general anyway? I mean ignoring the fact a military rank doesn't remove her noble rank, in the OT she wasn't a part of the Alliance's military, she was a part of its civilian body, which is why the only thing she did in the OT military wise was briefing one of the squadrons of fighters, and being one of the grunts on Han's infiltration party. She should have been the civilian leader of the Resistance, not its military leader. She certainly showed no competence at the job.

And why are fleets of ships being ordered around by generals anyway?

Oh questioning how the ranks work in Star Wars is a rabbit hole we don't want to go down. Han goes from "this smuggler who helped us out for a bit" to "respected general" in the space of the few years between New Hope and Empire Strikes Back, and seems to have gained another promotion by Return of the Jedi despite having done nothing but sleep in carbonite between those movies. Its mad, mad I tell you!

Probably. It had no trouble picking off a terrestrial bunker complex from a fairly high orbit so I doubt the distance the Resistance fleet gets would have given it any trouble at all

That doesn't say much. The fleets are moving, have shields, and are almost certainly at much further distances. The dreadnought could certainly hit them, but it's iffy as to whether it could do any damage.

The whole reason Leia wanted to get out of there rather than fight the dreadnought was because its big guns would have had no trouble pulverising the Resistance fleet, shields or no. A few good shots from that thing would have blown even the Raddus to bits

 

[Vrex360]

Snip.

Okay, not answering guilt by association, straw men, or red herrings. You want to play that game, you can do it without me.

Dude I brought it up because I'm getting really tired of seeing people pretending that there isn't a toxic sexist racist and just generally hateful side to the backlash of this movie, it's not all of it but there's enough of it that the stink really rises. You said Rian Johnson was more sexist than the people attacking the movie so I felt I needed to remind you just how high of a bar that actually is to clear.

I'm talking about my criticisms of the movie, thank you very much, and I intend to keep it that way.

Yes and you can do that without downplaying or dismissing the toxic nature of other criticisms, if you don't want to do that don't bring it up.

First, why should we question Leia's and Holdo's actions? Well, in the first case the character has a well-established pedigree in the franchise and, bare minimum, it behooves us to check her characterization in TLJ for consistency and fidelity. The last we saw of Leia, it was of a young woman who was brash and hotheaded in her own way, but mature well beyond her age and quickly growing into her role as a leader. We even see her -- for the little she is in the film -- in TFA as a mature stateswoman who carries herself with great aplomb and sense of decorum regardless of circumstance, which flows from her character growth in the OT perfectly. Her characterization in TLJ is, in my opinion, closer to ANH than any film in which the character was seen since, which demonstrates a regression in her characterization.

How? She's a military leader struggling to maintain order in a crisis, that tough as nails attitude is naturally going to come out.

And yes, a slap is an assault. The definition of assault is literally to physically attack someone. That's what Leia did. She assaulted Poe. If you don't like that, I would direct you to the nearest dictionary so that you may look up the definition of the word yourself.

I feel like you're getting really hung up on the insignificant part of my response there. See the meat of my argument was that given Poe defied orders in full view of everyone Leia was not only within her rights but also kinda obligated to show strength and dole out punishment and again he's lucky a slap and a demotion is all he got.

As far as "that was a fluke", well you're the one bringing up the space wizards, laser swords, and the presence of a unifying and guiding presence in the SW universe that ensures that, in the context of the universe we're discussing, there are no such thing as flukes or coincidences. That's something Leia would know, being Luke's twin sister and Vader's daughter and all, and considering Holdo of all people is canonically Force-sensitive, she'd know that too, especially considering understanding of the presence and importance of the Force isn't limited to only Jedi in the Star Wars universe.

Yeah but by that logic that means you can argue that everything the characters do is always predetermined, no one actually has free will and thus there is no need to be invested in anything or try for anything because destiny simply wills the outcome and no one has any control over it. There have to be some limitations for the story to have coherent rules and stakes so even with the all powerful force people are still governed by free will and still capable of fucking up.

I mean, beyond that, you'd be surprised the importance of instinct, intuition, and informed guesswork that goes into successful military options.

And I promise you the army that carefully plans and strategies will still ultimately win out over the people who just go with their guts.

TLJ is Holdo's first appearance. Her entire background is listed in throwaway lines in one scene. Her writing in the film must be consistent with those lines in order to have any parsimony, and at least in my opinion Johnson failed horrifically at that.

Well agree to disagree.

And, here's the thing about lines of argument such as yours. Accepting a sitrep from the senior flight officer isn't suborning herself to a man.

No that's not what I said. What I said was it was wierd that you are operating under the assumption that she doesn't know the situation herself, she's a higher up in the Resistance, and that she was unable to have access to relevant information without the assistance of Poe. If Poe were the only one able to give her a sitrep and it was reasonable to assume she needed one then I would have no problem with that, it is your assumption that she would need Poe to do those things in the first place that I take issue with.

Neither is keeping said senior officer in the loop about planning, or making a proposal she instrumentalize him -- as a strategic asset -- in her plan.

A senior officer who just defied orders and got people killed and was subsequently demoted. He's still sitting in the 'time out corner' metaphorically speaking.

Expecting military leaders to utilize every strategic asset at their disposal to maximize their chances of success while minimizing cost, doesn't magically transform itself into misogyny when and if those strategic assets have a penis.

No it doesn't and I don't think it is 'misogyny' at least not in the sense of how you are using the word. She is still utilizing him as a strategic asset, she's just not wasting time spoonfeeding him intel when she doesn't have to. The onus should be on him to prove himself capable of following basic commands.
And keep in mind she does tell him there is a plan and he still ends up folding but more on that later.

Now, at this point we have to consider the acceptance of women characters in past movies. Leia was characterized as a gung-ho, no fucks given, hotheaded military leader from the first minutes of ANH. People loved gung-ho, no fucks given, Leia. Why? Because even though it was a hail mary pass against insurmountable odds, it made sense. It was her only play.

It was also just kinda who she was.

Before the CG series, Mon Mothma got less screen time than Holdo did in her first scene alone, and people loved the fuck out of her. She planned Endor, and she was the one to deliver the briefing, yet people loved the fuck out of her. Because she was characterized as a no-nonsense, level-headed, diplomat and strategist whose plans were sensible and easily understood from initiation to conclusion, even though they were also hail mary plays with little if any chance of success.

She also wasn't on screen for very long, she mainly existed just to serve up exposition.

Yet in TLJ, we have Holdo who concocted a pretty smart plan that had an extremely high chance of success given the odds and developing situation. Costly, hail mary pass? sure, but as you said when hasn't that been the case in Star Wars? It went to shit because she didn't communicate it.

Actually it went to shit because she did. Poe found out, word spread around and it found itself in the hands of the First Order thus leading the First order to taking out a lot of their shuttles and pursuing them to the planet's surface.

So, you have to ask yourself: why do fans reject Holdo, when they loved Leia and Mon Mothma?

I refer you back to the spinning ying yang. Some had legit issues, others had less savoury reasons and when both are screaming out in irrational hatred it is really hard to tell where the line is drawn between them.
But again, I'll address your point.

Because Rian Johnson wrote Holdo to be stupid. I'm sure that wasn't his intent, but that's what happened. And, I can only speak for myself, but that's almost entirely why I'm pissed at him -- BECAUSE of the way he wrote women characters. SW is a space opera franchise flush with meaningful, good, women characters, and Johnson took a steaming shit on that particular part of the SW legacy.

Tell that to the fans who decided to do an edit of the movie omitting every scene with a female character in it and complained about it being 'too diverse'. I suspect one reason a lot of those guys liked Leia and Mothma is because they were singular Smurfette's in a galaxy of dudes so the status quo wasn't challenged all that much.

Besides which this is more a case of plot serving theme than anything else, Poe was one way and had to learn to become another.

Now, Poe. Poe's not the idiot who had the conversation about the whole damn plan on speakerphone.

Isn't he? Been a while since I've seen it, might be misremembering but basically the information does get leaked, proving Holdo right about limiting how much that information could spread lest it spread to the enemy. Why does Poe get a free pass for not sitting still rejecting his leader's assurance that there actually was a plan? Maybe the fault is on him constantly disobeying orders.

The code breaker probably would have figured it out when they needed him to break into the tracking device's room, anyhow. Not that it mattered, BB-H8 blew the whole thing by being a BB droid and the First Order would have gotten their information anyways.

A. How do you know that?
B. How would it be reasonable to expect Holdo and the Resistance to know that?
C. If the chance of information like that getting leaked was so insanely high again, does that not validate that Holdo was right to keep the number of people in the know in the small numbers?

I think the First Order probably would have figured it out by the fact they were trying to break into the tracking device's room in the first place.

You're right. Stupid Poe, why couldn't he use his magical all seeing 'gut' to forsee that it was a terrible plan?

So, let's discuss an alternate scenario. How about Holdo brought Poe into the loop on her plan, Poe was considering mutinying anyways, and tried to bring Finn along for the ride. Except, Rose lays into him for causing her sister's death, and it triggers a massive argument between the three characters. Rose walks away having gotten some catharsis for her sister's death, Finn walks away with a better understanding of his place in the Resistance and those who count on him, and Poe walks away with a more personalized understanding his choices have a consequence in terms of lives.

That triggers Poe to decide, "no more deaths today", and he goes all-in on Holdo's plan. There's your middle act, the emotional backbone of the movie apart from Rey on Ahch-To, and "subversion!" in the form the mid-movie action comes not in the form of blasters and lightsabers, but words. And, suddenly, everything that happened before in the movie, and will happen later, comes into sharp focus without, you know, contradicting the film's own themes on the most fundamental levels.

Granted that probably would be better.

As far as everyone else, they at least have their moments of Not Being Stupid. Something sorely deprived of the women characters...and that brings us back to my original point, Johnson's writing is misogynist AF, and no accusations of misogyny on those who call it out will change that.

And again I simply disagree.

 

[Agema]

Her characterization in TLJ is, in my opinion, closer to ANH than any film in which the character was seen since, which demonstrates a regression in her characterization.

We have relatively little idea what Leia's development has been over the intervening years.

It's not that it's invalid you have your unhappiness about Leia slapping Poe and what it represents, but on the other hand I think it's based on a lot of subjective interpretations. For instance, we can equally assume that the slap represents her fiery spirit still going underneath her shell of an experienced leader. Or maybe it can reflect a minor loss of control given the stress of her husband/lover having been murdered by their son, the capital system of the Republic getting blown up, and her small force being in desperate trouble.

Now, at this point we have to consider the acceptance of women characters in past movies. Leia was characterized as a gung-ho, no fucks given, hotheaded military leader...

...who appeared to do very little military leading. I didn't see her direct a fleet, command an X-fighter squadron, captain a cruiser, or oversee land defences on Hoth. One might note she helps assault a base on Endor, but under the command of Han Solo. Perhaps in books and TV shows she's fleshed out with more role in military activities, but from the original trilogy she's really more a political leader.

* * *

But really going back to the first point, how much of this is actually wrong, and how much of it is just that certain members of the audience don't like it? Potentially, of course, not liking it because they've brought a truckload of their own preconceptions about how it should be.

For instance, I'm aware that some vocal critics are annoyed about some sort of feminist message because some woman's an admiral or something. But that's only a problem for them because they're going into these movies deliberately looking for women and gender interactions that can be perceived as "feminist" so they can rage on the internet about it later. Anyone not so primed just wouldn't really care. At a subconscious level, how many people maybe are annoyed about Holdo and Poe's interaction not because there's anything so wrong with it, but because Poe is a likeable, esetablished hero, and in this situation he is in the wrong. Wrong to a newcomer who is not likeable. The perception of right and wrong actually derives from the audience's established sympathies with the characters more than the situation.

 

[WindKnight]

For instance, I'm aware that some vocal critics are annoyed about some sort of feminist message because some woman's an admiral or something. But that's only a problem for them because they're going into these movies deliberately looking for women and gender interactions that can be perceived as "feminist" so they can rage on the internet about it later. Anyone not so primed just wouldn't really care. At a subconscious level, how many people maybe are annoyed about Holdo and Poe's interaction not because there's anything so wrong with it, but because Poe is a likeable, esetablished hero, and in this situation he is in the wrong. Wrong to a newcomer who is not likeable. The perception of right and wrong actually derives from the audience's established sympathies with the characters more than the situation.

I've seen it argued that Holdo's design/persona is coded to intentionally put male nerds on the defensive. She's a 'fussy older woman' with hair designed to put you in mind of an elderly lady. And as said before, she doesn't coddle poe, she (justly) tears him down for his actions.

'We' (or at least a certain portion of the audience) are meant to be on Poe's side, bristling at this invader... so when he f***s up again, and learns a hard lesson, we learn that lesson alongside him.

But, as the internet has taught me, a LOT of people are unwilling to let go of initial impressions. They hated Holdo from the get go, so they can't accept she was right, and that Poe needed a hard lesson in humility and leadership.

 

[Ninjamedic]

They hated Holdo from the get go, so they can't accept she was right, and that Poe needed a hard lesson in humility and leadership.

What leadership? A gambit that would have backfired if the bad guys actually had any braincells between them? Sitting back and letting your forces get whittled down to next to nothing? Not giving any basic briefing on the apocalyptic situation your forces are now in? Reacting to an insubordinate as if he cocked up the tea run?

I have to ask, was anyone paying attention during the film? The big action sequence that opens the film has a specific closeup of a death ray pointed right at the rebel (I;m not calling it the resistance) capital ship. The opening is a nick of time rescue that is then forgotten 1 minute after, if you're going to make a big deal out how this is supposed to be some grand lesson, it could at least be coherent.

Hell, Oscar Isaac also saves the day in the last film too, so he's 2 up!

+1 to Johnny's point about blind obedience too, it's finny how the film that has space fascists as the bad guys and glosses over it also has a lesson about blindly following authority no matter how nonsensical it is.

 

[WindKnight]

They hated Holdo from the get go, so they can't accept she was right, and that Poe needed a hard lesson in humility and leadership.

I have to ask, was anyone paying attention during the film? The big action sequence that opens the film has a specific closeup of a death ray pointed right at the rebel (I;m not calling it the resistance) capital ship. The opening is a nick of time rescue that is then forgotten 1 minute after, if you're going to make a big deal out how this is supposed to be some grand lesson, it could at least be coherent.

and if he had obeyed his orders, they would have jumped to lightspeed BEFORE THE GUN HAD GOT THAT CLOSE TO FIRING. They were only at risk of being obliterated in the first place because he wanted to be a hero, and he got a lot of people killed because of that.

 

[Trooper924]

This may not be the strongest Plinkett video but it's got my favorite internet car crash foaming at the mouth on social media.
Good enough.
Can anybody give an intelligent reason for Laura Dern to stubbornly hold back her plan from Poe/her troops, other than giving Poe, Finn and Rose something to do?

Because he's just been demoted for (A) ignoring orders and (B) getting a lot of people killed in a pointless victory that arguably means nothing in the long term.

Gee, I wonder why someone doesn't trust captain reckless moron who, the second he figures out the plan, goes and blabs it in earshot of the guy who sells the information directly to the first order.

It's really remarkable that most people don't understand this. And that they'll bend themselves backwards trying to prove that it isn't the case.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

I've seen it argued that Holdo's design/persona is coded to intentionally put male nerds on the defensive. She's a 'fussy older woman' with hair designed to put you in mind of an elderly lady.

Funny story about that, go back and give the leitmotifs and musical cues that play while Holdo was on screen a good, hard listen. No, not the score from the soundtrack, that's the music that plays during her sacrifice scene. No, I'm talking about the music that plays earlier in the film during her scenes. It's okay, I'll wait. The page isn't going anywhere.

...

Spoiler

Here, I'll even point to a video that makes it explicit.

https://youtu.be/IY_w6rOmRiA?t=3m35s

The leitmotifs that play during Holdo's scenes earlier in the film are Kylo Ren's and the First Order's.

Oh, there's coding all right.

Now, can we talk about how, if your argument is right, Johnson used a woman character, and the death thereof, as an instrument for a male character's growth and role in the entire trilogy? Wouldn't this be a pretty textbook case of a disposable woman trope?

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

This may not be the strongest Plinkett video but it's got my favorite internet car crash foaming at the mouth on social media.
Good enough.
Can anybody give an intelligent reason for Laura Dern to stubbornly hold back her plan from Poe/her troops, other than giving Poe, Finn and Rose something to do?

Because he's just been demoted for (A) ignoring orders and (B) getting a lot of people killed in a pointless victory that arguably means nothing in the long term.

Gee, I wonder why someone doesn't trust captain reckless moron who, the second he figures out the plan, goes and blabs it in earshot of the guy who sells the information directly to the first order.

It's really remarkable that most people don't understand this. And that they'll bend themselves backwards trying to prove that it isn't the case.

Other way around.
Poe is 100% OK with Holdo's secret plan. Everybody is. It makes sense. And it works out. Holdo only creates more trouble for herself and the rebel fleet in pretending she doesn't know what the fuck she's doing. People are quick to explain why Holdo is entitled to keep things secret from subordinate. What they can never explain is why and how that makes sense. Why not placate a troublemaker rather than pointlessly irritate him?

 

[WindKnight]

Poe is 100% OK with Holdo's secret plan. Everybody is. It makes sense. And it works out. Holdo only creates more trouble for herself and the rebel fleet in pretending she doesn't know what the fuck she's doing. People are quick to explain why Holdo is entitled to keep things secret from subordinate. What they can never explain is why and how that makes sense. Why not placate a troublemaker rather than pointlessly irritate him?

there's a military doctrine called 'need to know'. Poe didn't need to know, and that rankled him. He acted like a baby, not a professional soldier, actions that would lead to a freaking court martial in most, if not all actual militaries.

And...

Loose lips sink ships.

The enemy is always listening.

As soon as he knew what the plan was, he blabbed it. He ranted about it, and someone listening into his unguarded conversation sold them out the first chance they could. Poe demonstrated EXACTLY why Holdo didn't trust him.

Holdo was the commander. Poe was the jackass who got demoted for ignoring orders and Getting People Killed. He needed to prove himself to her, NOT the other way around, as much as the film gives us Poe's POV.

 

[Casual Shinji]

there's a military doctrine called 'need to know'. Poe didn't need to know, and that rankled him. He acted like a baby, not a professional soldier, actions that would lead to a freaking court martial in most, if not all actual militaries.

And...

Loose lips sink ships.

The enemy is always listening.

As soon as he knew what the plan was, he blabbed it. He ranted about it, and someone listening into his unguarded conversation sold them out the first chance they could. Poe demonstrated EXACTLY why Holdo didn't trust him.

Holdo was the commander. Poe was the jackass who got demoted for ignoring orders and Getting People Killed. He needed to prove himself to her, NOT the other way around, as much as the film gives us Poe's POV.

Yeah, but it didn't exactly stop disaster from happening. Poe acted stubborn, but so did Holdo in not dealing with him and telling him to just go sit in the corner. She can clearly tell the guy's brash, upset, and ready to make his own move, but she's just like 'nah man, I'm in charge here' and leaves him to stew even more. It comes across less as Holdo being the clever leader Poe refuses to listen to, and more as two egotistical jerks egging eachother on and getting in eachother's way.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Poe is 100% OK with Holdo's secret plan. Everybody is. It makes sense. And it works out. Holdo only creates more trouble for herself and the rebel fleet in pretending she doesn't know what the fuck she's doing. People are quick to explain why Holdo is entitled to keep things secret from subordinate. What they can never explain is why and how that makes sense. Why not placate a troublemaker rather than pointlessly irritate him?

there's a military doctrine called 'need to know'. Poe didn't need to know, and that rankled him. He acted like a baby, not a professional soldier, actions that would lead to a freaking court martial in most, if not all actual militaries.

And...

Loose lips sink ships.

The enemy is always listening.

As soon as he knew what the plan was, he blabbed it. He ranted about it, and someone listening into his unguarded conversation sold them out the first chance they could. Poe demonstrated EXACTLY why Holdo didn't trust him.

Holdo was the commander. Poe was the jackass who got demoted for ignoring orders and Getting People Killed. He needed to prove himself to her, NOT the other way around, as much as the film gives us Poe's POV.

You're bringing justifications into a fantasy world that has never operated on real world logic.
"Spies. "Need to know". "Court martial".
It's not A Few Good Men, it's freaking Star Wars.
(Also "court martial"? Within the prissy Empire maybe, but not in Leia's ragtag treehouse club)
If the movie had thrown in a single line about Holdo being concerned about spies that would be borderline fine, but we don't even have that. The fact remains that even if Holdo had the right to do what she did, her actions didn't make sense. Instilling chaos and risking mutiny in order to keep a secret you're going to unveil in 10 minutes anyway is dumb, dumb, dumb.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

They hated Holdo from the get go, so they can't accept she was right, and that Poe needed a hard lesson in humility and leadership.

I have to ask, was anyone paying attention during the film? The big action sequence that opens the film has a specific closeup of a death ray pointed right at the rebel (I;m not calling it the resistance) capital ship. The opening is a nick of time rescue that is then forgotten 1 minute after, if you're going to make a big deal out how this is supposed to be some grand lesson, it could at least be coherent.

and if he had obeyed his orders, they would have jumped to lightspeed BEFORE THE GUN HAD GOT THAT CLOSE TO FIRING. They were only at risk of being obliterated in the first place because he wanted to be a hero, and he got a lot of people killed because of that.

And then...what would have happened?

The dreadnought comes through hyperspace behind them. And they all get obliterated.

Seriously, that's been mentioned several times, but you seem to be willfully ignoring it.

Ignoring the fact that the First Order have been reduced, severely, in apparent intellect in the first place (Hux's buffoonery being a big part of that) by not firing on the incredibly obvious target that was the Raddis- they were still under imminent threat by the dreadnought.

They'd only just gotten the last transport out when the base was hit, so no, they weren't just waiting to leave from the get go. And if the plan was for Poe to just be a distraction while the fleet left...why was a flight of fighters and bombers dispatched long after he'd begun his attack?

And what, did none of the other pilots have radios? They couldn't be called back by Leia? They didn't have any agency whatsoever?

If the writer wasn't terrible, we wouldn't even be having this discussion in the first place.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Off Topic but can I offer a rebuttle regarding what Mr Plinkett says about the prequels regarding the fight scenes that are too over choreographed and lacks tension and that the older movies handled it better?

So basically Mr. Plinkett you want the fights to be like this?

 

[Hawki]

And then...what would have happened?

The dreadnought comes through hyperspace behind them. And they all get obliterated.

Seriously, that's been mentioned several times, but you seem to be willfully ignoring it.

Where is that stated in the movie?

I keep seeing people claiming that the dreadnought could take out the fleet, but no-one's provided any evidence for it.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

And then...what would have happened?

The dreadnought comes through hyperspace behind them. And they all get obliterated.

Seriously, that's been mentioned several times, but you seem to be willfully ignoring it.

Where is that stated in the movie?

I keep seeing people claiming that the dreadnought could take out the fleet, but no-one's provided any evidence for it.

It's literally referred to as, and I'm quoting here, "a fleet killer."

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mandator_IV-class_Siege_Dreadnought

The quote is the first thing on the dreadnought's page.

Also, fun fact. Poe and company killed a quarter of a million people within the first 10 minutes of the movie.

 

[Hawki]

It's literally referred to as, and I'm quoting here, "a fleet killer."

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mandator_IV-class_Siege_Dreadnought

The quote is literally the first thing on the dreadnought's page.

Yes, and? Dreadnoughts are designed for ship-to-ship combat. That isn't news. If you want to play the quote game, I can also quote Ackbar in saying that it's designed for planetary assault.

The question is, again, what is the evidence that the dreadnought had the range to take out the Resistance ships? I've already been to that page, and there's no mention of it having exceptional range. Just because it has heavy firepower doesn't mean it can use effectively against an ever receeding target with shields.