My Stance on Women in Gaming

[Amaror]

Before i continue i want to put up a few disclaimers:

1. I wasn't sure if this topic belonged in "Gaming Discussion" or "Religion and Politics". I put it in Gaming because that seemed more likely to me since i primarily talk about Games that are aimed towards different genders, but should this thread be in the wrong forum i want to apologize with this disclaimer and ask a moderator to move the thread.

2. No this is not about GamerGate. I will not say anything about gamergate and i would appreciate if it could be left out of this thread.

So, women in gaming, mainly how games are aimed towards different genders, how this can improve and how my opinion on the current situation is.
I will compare gaming to two other for of media, mainly books and movies. So how is the situation in those forms of media. Pretty good in my opinion as there are plenty of movies or books for everyone. Different genres are aimed towards different people. You have romance books/movies for women, action/fantasy for men and plenty of stuff for everyone.
And how does it look in video games? Actually ... pretty similar.
We have tons and tons of games aimed towards men. Action-games and First-person-shooters are the obvious examples. But there are also not that few games that are enjoyed and aimed towards women. Sims is the obvious choice in the triple A are, but there are a lot more if we look outside of that. There are massives amounts of facebook and mobile games that are primarily aimed at women. Additionally visual novels and äh, i don't know how this kind of game is named in english it's basically searching out various objects in different screens littered with different objects like adventure games in lite, are immensly popular among women.
That's not to say everythings great either. While we allready have different genres that are aimed towards women, we don't really have the middle ground that the other forms of media have.
Genre's like Action-Adventure and regular Adventure games, which in my opinion would fit pretty well into that middle ground that everyone can easily enjoy are often still aimed towards men, which they shouldn't really be. Many Adventure games, like the Telltale games, are pretty unisex nowadays, but action-adventure got some way to go.

So, that are my thoughts. What are yours?

 

[Dizchu]

You're basically saying that "casual" games are marketed towards women and more action-oriented games are marketed towards men. Not as a rule, but it's a tendency. I agree, and this is corroborated by the statistics that while women as a demographic may be equal to or even greater to men in video games "as a whole", women tend to play casual games or puzzle games rather than big-budget games. This would also explain big publishers' reluctance to cater to demographics other than teenage boys.

But I think there's a lot more nuance to this. You said that "find the hidden object" games are popular with women. What do you think about more traditional adventure games like Broken Sword, Monkey Island, The Longest Journey etc.? Many of those games feature female protagonists, female writing and design talent. They also tend to be gender-neutral in terms of marketing.

Other games such as Portal have also been a big hit with both males and females, as have games and franchises such as Bayonetta, Tomb Raider, Pokemon, Kingdom Hearts, and so on. Those games have an appeal that transcend gender, especially the testosterone-fuelled nature of games like Call of Duty (though many women play those games too).

The only games I'd say that women tend to avoid are those that glamorise ridiculous portrayals of masculinity in a straight-faced manner. But I wouldn't expect men to get much enjoyment out of games that cater to the most stereotypical of "female interests" either.

Basically, take any successful game ever that's perceived to appeal to men only and there's bound to be women that enjoy it. And vice versa.

 

[Saetha]

I think that if those are the sorts of games that women like, than we must have awful taste in games. Visual novels can be fine, but mobile gaming? Virtual I Spy? Ugh.

That being said, I think you're on to something here but you're getting lost on the details. While some genres may appeal more to women than others, I don't think those genres specifically do. I think a French study a few years ago proved that RPG and strategy players were mostly a 1:1 ratio of men and women, while FPSs and racing games were male heavy. Granted, I can't pull up that first study,so take that with a grain of salt.

But yeah, I'd say women tend to be interested in different genres. What those are genres are, exactly, why women tend to prefer them, and how that could be extrapolated into other genres is something worthy of study that could genuinely improve the state of female gamers. Unfortunately, those who strive for such improvement seem to think it could be better attained by yelling at video game characters for being too sexy.

...And all that being said, trends and tendencies aren't absolutes. Obviously this doesn't apply to every last woman on the planet.

 

[Lilikins]

I think that gaming developers should primarily be allowed to do what they wish/as they see fit, alot of games just wouldnt 'fit' with a female protagonist. The exact same goes vice versa in the sence that they just wouldnt 'fit'. Ill get to something that has to do with that further below.

Though I do believe their are generaly many games that can be thoroughly enjoyed by both in that regard then. My fiancee for instance...loves playing Binding of Isaac yet on the flipside she also thoroughly enjoyed Borderlands and Dead Space.
(checking to see what else she has wracked up quite alot of play time aswell...) Battleblock Theatre..Killing Floor..Legend of Zelda..Mortal Kombat..Pokemon...ehh yeah haha.

I just really think this whole 'sexism in gaming' debate should (and hopefully will) end soon. After all, its a medium to give enjoyment and thats what the final goal should be. I personally dont think that alot of the two genders dont care if the protagonist is female..male..japanese..american..european..a grizzly bear..a giraffe (A giraffe swinging around 2 AK-47's in a CoD game would be quite hilarious to see though I must admit..), ah-hem, anyways.

Lots of people have lots of different visions and icons, for instance lets say RPG's, ehh..skyrim for instance. I have some big bald nord chap with scars and tribal markings as a barbarian. Why? I donno, I just think that that specific role and 'look' would fit to him. I dont look like I eat steroids for breakfast..so the muscular part is out for me, I still have some hair..so Im not bald, Im also quite normal sized for a male so Im by all means not a giant either. Now to get to the flipside of him, Ive got a female imperial whos a sorceress, why? Same as above, I just think it fits (I dont think I have to compare myself to that one though haha?).

What Im trying to get at really, is that I personally believe the artists/game designers should just do as they see fit. I dont care if its a female or male protagonist, if the game looks good and is fun (what the real goal is in my opinion..) most folks wont/shouldnt care, in my opinion.

 

[SoreWristed]

Well, you are comparing a medium that is pretty recent to one that's been around since the middle ages. More suitable would be to compare movies to games but then you'd run into some very different issues.

I think the entire discussion of what sex plays what games is a bit of an iffy one. I peronally don't understand why it's there in the first place. Maybe I look at games too much as movies with buttons, or as books with gameplay.

Me and my sister both immensely enjoy the Discworld book series and while we have both read through the entirety of them, we both found characters in it that we enjoyed more, which would be commander vimes for me and The Patrician for her. And that's because those are characters we want to relate to, gender aside. We both enjoyed the series as a whole and plucked the characters out of it that we liked. I can't even imagine what game has the length and the amount of characters necessary to compare to an almost 40 book series, but my point is i usually can't pick my favourite in games.

I can't point to my favourite character in let's say, the latest installment of Infamous because there only are three characters in it. The hero, the friend and the not-the-hero. These roles are filled by multiple characters, but they are written as the same thing. For it to contain a favourite character of mine, i'd need to find one with a backstory that can't be explained by a cutscene that is 1.20 mins long.

What i'm laboriously trying to say is, most characters in video games are written to be liked by the bulk of the intended audience of said game. For this to happen, they write a character that has one or two personality traits written all over them and none other. This character is intended to be liked by women or intended to be liked by small children or intended to be liked by men. This isn't a character that can exist on it's own because it would fall apart. Try imagining reading a book about Desmond Miles. It would be over after chapter one because after that you'd have all the information you need to know how he will react in any situation.

Gaming does not have any complex written characters, and i know some may disagree, i just can't imagine a book more than 50 pages about the personality of Solid Snake. His cutscenes are long and filled with dialogue, but they don't make me understand the character.

So if video game writers took their characters as being actual people, then games would become unisex. Because regardless of gender, people can enjoy his or her character.

Doesn't apply to every game, and besides from being written well, the game should be fun and well designed aswell.

I am wondering now what the Z shaped block in tetris thinks of his role in life...

 

[Zhukov]

I don't know whether to be amused or a bit sad that this is something that warrants "having a stance."

Now let me tell you all My Stance on Left Handed People in Gaming.

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

I don't know whether to be amused or a bit sad that this is something that warrants "having a stance."

Now let me tell you all My Stance on Left Handed People in Gaming.

Thats an interesting stance on stances you have there.

 

[Zhukov]

Now let me tell you all My Stance on Left Handed People in Gaming.

Are they going to join my hobby, and want all the right-handed joysticks taken away?

Oh, that's just the beginning.

Before you even know it, they'll be asking for left handed protagonists.

The worst part is, a few pissweak righty traitors will drink the kool aid and start saying that they have a point. That's when things really start to get ugly.

 

[Amaror]

But I think there's a lot more nuance to this. You said that "find the hidden object" games are popular with women. What do you think about more traditional adventure games like Broken Sword, Monkey Island, The Longest Journey etc.? Many of those games feature female protagonists, female writing and design talent. They also tend to be gender-neutral in terms of marketing.

Other games such as Portal have also been a big hit with both males and females, as have games and franchises such as Bayonetta, Tomb Raider, Pokemon, Kingdom Hearts, and so on. Those games have an appeal that transcend gender, especially the testosterone-fuelled nature of games like Call of Duty (though many women play those games too).

I absolutly agree. I mostly said that about "Hidden object games" because i had found a study that showed the majourity of players of those games are female. More and more of those games have been popping up on steam in the recent years and when i took a look at them the story of those games tended to be aimed towards women as well.
As i said Adventure games both new and traditional perfectly fit into that middle ground of genres that are equally enjoyed by men and women. And games like Portal or Tomb Raider or Kingdom Hearts i would count into the Action-Adventure genres which again i think fits good into tat middle ground.

What i'm laboriously trying to say is, most characters in video games are written to be liked by the bulk of the intended audience of said game. For this to happen, they write a character that has one or two personality traits written all over them and none other. This character is intended to be liked by women or intended to be liked by small children or intended to be liked by men. This isn't a character that can exist on it's own because it would fall apart. Try imagining reading a book about Desmond Miles. It would be over after chapter one because after that you'd have all the information you need to know how he will react in any situation.

Yeah i aggree with this. It's sad that AAA can only do such bland characters because they try to "Appeal to a larger audience". But it's a lot better if you look outside of the AAA genres, as i said they tend to be focused on a male audience anyway. When you look at adventure games, both traditional like Deponia and new like The Walking Dead, you tend to get large casts of diverse characters which are generally a lot better written than your typical AAA dude. This is also true for RPG games like DAI or The Witcher, so at least that part of AAA can still make good characters.
Btw. The Patrician's awesome isn't he?

That being said, I think you're on to something here but you're getting lost on the details. While some genres may appeal more to women than others, I don't think those genres specifically do. I think a French study a few years ago proved that RPG and strategy players were mostly a 1:1 ratio of men and women, while FPSs and racing games were male heavy. Granted, I can't pull up that first study,so take that with a grain of salt.

Cool, i allready suspected that RPG's have a rather diverse audience since they tend to have better written and more diverse characters in them. I didn't know about strategy though, but that's pretty cool it's allready one of my favourite genres!
I think basically that after a few more years the gaming industry will mostly look like the movies industry. You will have some genres aimed exsplicitly towards men, some aimed exsplicitly towards women and the majourity of genres just gender-neutral and enjoyed by everyone. Which i think is good.

I don't know whether to be amused or a bit sad that this is something that warrants "having a stance."

Now let me tell you all My Stance on Left Handed People in Gaming.

Yeah i am pretty sick of the sexism discussion in games right now myself. I've basically had a few beers yesterday and just felt like sharing my opinion. I often see people complaining why gaming can't be more like books and movies in terms of gender stuff. And i just feel that we're allready moving towards being like movies in that regard in large steps.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

I always find the talk about woman and gamers retarded. Especailly as for me its a non issue. My two sisters have been gaming since we got a Atari to play on. The type of gamers woman play is dependent on genres they enjoy. For instance, as a man, most would say sports games and Cod are games men like, where i have zero interest in them. Woman play the games want to play and is nothing to do with them being female and thus only like certain genres.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I always find the talk about woman and gamers retarded. Especailly as for me its a non issue.

Unfortunately, you aren't running the gaming industry and/or society as a whole.

Yes, it's stupid, the whole thing should be a non-issue. That's very far from saying that it is, though.

 

[Baron Teapot]

This whole subject has been done to death, but I guess this horse can take a few further kicks before it's one-hundred percent pulp.

Men and women enjoy all games between them, and though in aggregate there may be smaller numbers of women playing certain genres, that's pretty useless information when applied to the individual. Or do all women read trashy romance novels simply because they're women? Do all men enjoy football?

I've read that 2011 study, and it basically tells us that the gender of a protagonist is irrelevant.

Players place themselves as the protagonist, assigning the character's attributes and motivations to themselves, and don't tend to care whether they're playing as a man or a woman.

Also, in competitive games where character selection is allowed, such as beat-em-ups, players of either gender are a thousand times more likely to choose a character based upon their play-style and the advantages conferred by using that character, so that it improves their chances of winning.

People do not, typically, select characters that they relate to because of their gender.

A game's marketing is important, but the subject matter informs the marketing. If you were to paint a 'Call of Duty' title as a pony-riding simulator, you'll likely get a lot of preteen girls buying the game.

"We want more women in video-games, even though women aren't typically interested in video-games!"

So, does that mean as a game developer, it's my job to force women into game development..? Nonsense.

I don't want the core audience of video-games to change; I have contributed to this industry by purchasing games for over twenty years. But suddenly, the game industry doesn't want to cater to me anymore, they want to cater to the women who've never bought a game, but play Farmville sometimes? Ugh.

You might as well have a stance on Asians in gaming...

 

[Colour Scientist]

Now let me tell you all My Stance on Left Handed People in Gaming.

Are they going to join my hobby, and want all the right-handed joysticks taken away?

Not only that, we're going to censor all depictions of right-handed protagonists. We're also going to write petitions with our left hands everytime a left-handed person is objectified in video games.

 

[NPC009]

Now let me tell you all My Stance on Left Handed People in Gaming.

Are they going to join my hobby, and want all the right-handed joysticks taken away?

Not only that, we're going to censor all depictions of right-handed protagonists. We're also going to write petitions with our left hands everytime a left-handed person is objectified in video games.

No, no, no! That's way too extreme. We should let people choose whether they want to play left-handed or right-handed protagonist. None of that funny ambidextrous business, though. Dualwielding is unnatural and we should take a stance against such unholy filth!

 

[small]

a sad trend in todays community is outright dismissing "casual" games as not being real games and not worth bothering about, and when the vast majority of the players of those games just happen to be female you have a situation where only people who play the latest male targeted COD being classed as "real gamers" you end up with a situation where a good chunk of females dont feel welcome.

people seem to forget that at one point ALL games were less complex than most mobile games today, they all were casual games yet no one can say the people who spend hour upon hour racking up high scores in asteriods or pacman werent hardcore.

so yes while i might detest something like farmville personally and would never play it if someone puts in hundreds if not thousands of hours into it then they are a hardcore gamer

its not the game that makes you hardcore its the dedication other wise anyone who doesnt play flight sims and wargames is a filthy casual

 

[Amaror]

You heard it here first ladies! Stick to your Farmvilles and Sims! The other stuff, the vast majority of stuff actually, is for men!

And while we're at it, you should probably stay out of offices and politics. Those are for men too! But there are still plenty of waitress and stripper positions for you!

Okay, now that my snark sponge has been wrung out, do you ever wonder why those genres have more female players? Why they like them more? Perhaps it's less "Ladies just don't like shooters!" And more "Certain aspects of this game or series of games are so hostile and unwelcoming to anything other than straight white males they'd rather go somewhere else".
One of these things is a copout, and the other is a problem. Fortunately it's a solvable problem, but it will take work and change. Unfortunately, those two things few people really like or are willing to do, especially when they're receiving all the benefits of the current status quo.

Yes i am well aware that gamers play what they enjoy playing and that there are plenty of women playing shooters or racers and also plenty of men playing stuff like Sims.
Again since no-one here seems to get this:
I am NOT talking about what games people should or shouldn't play. People should play the games that they think are fun and that they enjoy, not matter the genre or marketing or anything.
I am talking about towards what audience these games are advertised towards or with what audience in mind these games are designed.
My point was, while the majourity of triple A games are designed with men in mind, there are also plenty of games and genre's that are designed with women in mind allready. Additionally there are also games which aren't designed with any specific gender, like Adventure games for example.
But i still don't deny that there are too many games designed with men in mind out there, at least in the AAA space. It would be good to have some of those choose a more gender-neutral approach. With complaints about lacking inclusiveness of big titles like AC we might just get more gender-neutral designed games in AAA in the future. Although i personally don't think that AC was THAT bad to begin with. The protagonist was always male, to be sure, but there were often some badass women in the stories as well.
Personally the most hilarious scene in Black Flag is when Mary Read reveals "surprisingly" that she is a women. It was just so obvious with her body shape and voice that she is a women, i always thought it was more of an inside joke of the pirates that they pretended she was a man. But no they were just idiots the whole time.

 

[Twintix]

And while we're at it, you should probably stay out of offices and politics. Those are for men too!

Joke's on you - I think politics are stupid! You men can do all the boring politician work!

(Jokes aside, I think OP worded his opinion in a nice and polite manner. That amount of snarkiness, while funny, was perhaps a little bit uncalled for?)

OT: Well, a lot of what you've been talking about boils down to the individual, I think. I don't care much for visual novels and the like, but that's because a lot of them are romance games, and I'm not all that interested in romance. Other than that, though, I'm willing to play pretty much anything - I've never cared that much about the target audience in commercials.
But that's just me. Different people are affected by advertising in different ways.

 

[LordFeast59]

Any game that have engaging narrative will instantly get the female audiences attention. I don't know if this is enough, but Final Fantasy and the Mass Effect series tend to gather an overwhelmingly good amount of girl fans. Plus, I do check DeviantArt and Twitter all the time, and games like the Metal Gear series, The Elder Scrolls especially, Skyrim, Outlast and Silent Hill series are getting focus for female gamers, artist and cosplays, so I guess that's good enough evidence.

Maybe there are more of them but the examples seems to be good enough and I probably will put Assassin Creed but considering the series get trashed often by gamers, maybe I shouldn't bother.