Nationalism and Nazis. Help me explain the following conundrum

[Deathsigna]

I from Germany. NOBODY is ashamed of what THEY did. Not every German is a NAZI! I spent a couple years and everybody asked me if I'm a nazi, not Cool!
We just learn about it and regret it because it was a sad time. Just like you Americans are going to regret invading Afghanistan.

hitler was austrian and what he did was evil and the only people that new where joseph geobles and herman georing and himmler
NO ONE ELSE the soldiers that sshot the jews where mostly emotionally destroyed and many killed themselves therre is as you say nothing to be ashamed of
england should be ashamed we knew full well what was going on we just didn't give a shit

The idea that only the Nazi leadership knew what was going on is a misconception. I'm not suggesting that every German wanted the Jews to be gassed, but the German people did, for the most part allow for the Jews to persecuted in the way that they did. While they weren't aware of what was happening in the concentration camps they still allowed the Nazi government of the time to pass, for example the Nuremberg laws which took the Jew's citzenship away from them.

Also, don't try to take the blame away from the soldiers. They did still commit the acts that they did, although admittedly there were a variety of reasons for this (peer pressure, desires to further their career, alcohol).

I'm not saying that all Germans are evil at all, but for the most part the German people did cooperate with the Nazi regime and to argue otherwise is ignorant. You are right about the not giving a shit idea for the most part, since we declared war after the invasion of Poland and not before.

 

[Symplify]

We just learn about it and regret it because it was a sad time. Just like you Americans are going to regret invading Afghanistan.

More like they regret invading Vietnam for quite some time already.

And he didn't imply that Germans are still Nazis, quite the opposite - he said that they feel ashamed despite having no connection to Nazis whatsoever.

OT: Nationalism on a whole is a very, very illogical thing.

Actually there are very few people who regret Vietnam. Many people do not agree with it or whatever, but I can't think of anyone who regrets it.

 

[zehydra]

Lol I assume your first discussion was with DementedTeddy?

No it was not. I can't remember with whom, I do remember that pretty much everyone in the topic turned against me simply because I did not get that second-hand pride.

It's just the way people have been educated.

Maybe, but then again I've been educated (almost feverishly) to be very very very proud of our national football team (which, in my eyes, is no different from any other form of nationalism) but I'm not. Maybe it's hard-wired in humans? That option makes me feel broken though, somehow mentally defective that I do not see the sense behind second-hand pride.

I believe actually it does have a lot to do with education (Or do I mean brainwashing?)

 

[Wildrow12]

The scientific community makes much more sense to me. There is always collaboration, cause modern science is really hard to do.

Uh...some of the time, maybe. For example, my discipline is Psychology and you wouldn't BELIEVE the viciousness that goes on between competing theorists (in my undergrad years I actually witnessed a fight between one of my professors and another Psychologist due to years of heated arguments between the two both in popular media and in journals--at an APA conference no less!). The same can be said of other scientific disciplines as well. Academia is as brutal an arena as any, and in the war for grant money and fame, scientists and their students will often make things very personal with each other. I am still passionate about science (I wouldn't be in the field if I wasn't), but I also know to be wary of human nature.

Give humans a limited resource, and they'll fight over it.

 

[Edward123454321]

Also the plural of Nazi is Nazis, not Nazi's

Unless it's to resemble the ownership of an object, the nazi's sandwich.

Or used as an appostrophe for 'I', The Nazi's a sandwich.

But yeah, that's pretty tough, people asking if your a Nazi, but don't make blind accusations, like the Americans are going to be ashamed of Afghanistan, it's for the existance of generalisations similar to that, that people presume you're a Nazi. =/

Was that almost as coherant as I hoped...?

 

[Yoshemo]

I don't take pride in America's achievements. But I am proud of the people that did it

 

[Mr. Eff_v1legacy]

You, sir, have made me think. Thank you.

 

[Tanthius]

Nationalism is rooted in the ability for man to believe in something greater than himself. If you believe it's illogical for a human to feel emotions and connection with an entity he believes greater than himself please tell me. Before the modern concept of nationalism came around near the time of the French Revolution people were already exercising this same concept through other means such as religion. So to show my hand and better make my point I'll use myself as an example.

I believe in the core values inherent in my country (U.S.) even if these values do not seem to be shared by a huge chunk of it's populace. That lack of unity is normal human behavior. But my belief that I was lucky to be born here and share these values forms a belief in something greater than myself, which is the ideas of human rights, personal freedom, and responsibility. People love to agree with the first two but don't want the responsibility. Nationalism comes with responsibility and in small doses nationalism is normal healthy behavior. When a person becomes radically nationalistic its the same as any other belief system, it gets ugly.

The point is do you believe in ideals greater than yourself? If so than you should be able to grasp the idea of nationalism. It has nothing to do with imaginary lines drawn in the sand but about shared cultural beliefs that define one people from another.

 

[Cowabungaa]

I believe actually it does have a lot to do with education (Or do I mean brainwashing?)

Then I guess it had no effect on me. We were taught to be pretty nationalistic, had to sing songs for the queen in front of our municipal building every Queen's Day, cheering for the national team. Yet I'm still empty of those feelings of pride.

I don't take pride in America's achievements. But I am proud of the people that did it

Can you explain the difference? Because I'm not seeing it. I mean, their achievements are exactly that; theirs. They did it, you did not.

le snip

Empowering you say? Hmmm, interesting, I can see your point there. It must feel good, that feeling. I've got the idea I'm missing something now.

le snip

Actually that makes quite a bit of sense indeed. Human progress conflicting with our biological instincts creating weird situations like these, as if we're developing too fast for ourselves.

If you believe it's illogical for a human to feel emotions and connection with an entity he believes greater than himself please tell me.

It's not that I don't believe in it, I just don't feel it. I do not see an entity greater than himself. In, for example, society's case, I only see a great bunch of individuals together. It's like when you hear conspiracy theorists barking about how evil "those corporations" are as if those corporations are living, breathing creatures. They're not, they're just a bunch of humans together.

I do get you believing in your country's ideals, you could say that I too believe in certain principles set in the Declaration of Independence (even though I'm not American); the pursuit of happiness for example, I find that a worthy goal. That's not what confuses me. What confuses me is, say, feeling pride in George Washington's victories over the English. I have not helped Washington achieve those victories, I had no hand in them whatsoever. Hence, feeling pride for those achievements feels weird to me. I didn't do anything, what can I be proud about?

 

[SuccessAndBiscuts]

The whole thing is daft to the nth degree.

I mean I'm proud to be Scottish because I know we have contributed a good deal to the world and I like to think that for the most part we are regarded fairly well throughout the world. However I know we have a fairly blood soaked history of clan warfare and infighting and in that regard no ones hands are clean.

Personally I think of it as my ancestors making mistakes, yea they fucked things up some times but they are human I am too and I've fucked things up. What I wan't to do though is to contribute to the history of my nation, hopefully for the better, but then again in the future people could look back at my contribution and go "that guy was a bastard" its impossible to know how things will go in the future.

To link that example to the Nazi Germany theme running through this thread I would say that while we see the Nazis as a bad thing now I doubt they at the time thought they were doing the wrong thing or they wouldn't have done it.

 

[Tanthius]

The scientific community makes much more sense to me. There is always collaboration, cause modern science is really hard to do.

Uh...some of the time, maybe. For example, my discipline is Psychology and you wouldn't BELIEVE the viciousness that goes on between competing theorists (in my undergrad years I actually witnessed a fight between one of my professors and another Psychologist due to years of heated arguments between the two both in popular media and in journals--at an APA conference no less!). The same can be said of other scientific disciplines as well. Academia is as brutal an arena as any, and in the war for grant money and fame, scientists and their students will often make things very personal with each other. I am still passionate about science (I wouldn't be in the field if I wasn't), but I also know to be wary of human nature.

Give humans a limited resource, and they'll fight over it.

This is a perfect example of science being subject to the same thing everything else is... human nature. Just look at global warming... er climate change. Scientists are willing to blacklist, throw punches, or make death threats to get their way. If a scientists objects to this unproven theory things get ugly. It's the Spanish Inquisition all over again. It's of course inherently unscientific to do so but it fits perfectly with human nature. The idea of human progress is almost a comedic phrase. Technology has changed but how we act as a species has varied very little.

 

[Gh0st1y_H]

EDIT: Wrong forum, disregard everything I just said.

In response to the actual topic, I'd say that humans are willing to accept any kind of victories as their own doing, while disregarding their losses. In terms of Nazism, it's pretty damn hard to ignore the fact that your country once tried to exterminate an entire culture. (And I'm only counting the Jews. Don't even get into the mentally unstable/handicapped.) People are going to have a hard time letting go the fact that "Hitler" and "Nazi" are practically synonymous with "German" and "Evil."

Its thoughts like this which hold us back in terms of social development, from my experiences.

 

[Alex The Rat]

There is no logic behind the question you're asking. You're attempting to logically justify emotions, as pride and shame mostly certainly are. This is impossible. Psychologically many feel the need to be a part of something greater than themselves as an individual, be that family, city, nation, religion, etc... You can't find objective justification of these feelings, although biologically they go back to our pack-like tendencies and the necessity for mutual support to survive, just like love stems (partly) from our biological imperative to mate. As for why we should pay attention to positives and distance ourselves from negatives? I think it's simple: because "good" is better than "bad". While one should be aware of both, emotionally it makes more sense to remember the good and distance yourself from the bad.

This if from someone who's in agreement with you. I was born and raised in the United States, but I will certainly be rooting against "my" team for the entirety of the World Cup (wont be long for "us", I wouldn't think). Whenever I do feel pride for someone else, I feel it because it is an achievement of my species (I actually am human) not an achievement of my nation.

If I may quote Carl Sagan, "Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies you will not find another."

That man had such beautiful perspective...

EDIT: I don't dislike my nation's soccer team just because. I simply dislike the behavior of most of their star players, including Donovan and Dempsey. Spain, on the other hand, has some truly talented and relatively humble players (with some assholes mixed in, of course) and their skill is an asset to the game, which is why I will be rooting for Spain.

 

[Yoshemo]

stuff

Like.. when your friend wins a game or your kid gets good grades. You've never heard a parent say "I'm proud of you" when their kid does good? You're not taking credit for them, you're happy for them

 

[Gildan Bladeborn]

How does the fact that many, if not most, sports are stand-ins for combat affect your understanding? Agility, strength and endurance are as necessary for warriors and soldiers as they are for athletes.

Quite true, but warriors are using those skills for a far more important purpose than "scoring a touchdown". Professional athletes are just people who are really good at doing things that are completely irrelevant; or at least things that should be irrelevant, because sports are not actually important.

There's nothing wrong with finding such athleticism admirable, or playing sports, or enjoying watching sports - it's the attribution of some deeper meaning to an inherently trivial pursuit that I find onerous and inexplicable.

 

[Velvo]

The scientific community makes much more sense to me. There is always collaboration, cause modern science is really hard to do.

Uh...some of the time, maybe. For example, my discipline is Psychology and you wouldn't BELIEVE the viciousness that goes on between competing theorists (in my undergrad years I actually witnessed a fight between one of my professors and another Psychologist due to years of heated arguments between the two both in popular media and in journals--at an APA conference no less!). The same can be said of other scientific disciplines as well. Academia is as brutal an arena as any, and in the war for grant money and fame, scientists and their students will often make things very personal with each other. I am still passionate about science (I wouldn't be in the field if I wasn't), but I also know to be wary of human nature.

Give humans a limited resource, and they'll fight over it.

Oh, I know that, I suppose. I just have this ideal of international cooperation that I enjoy and being a college student I know a lot of people from round the world. Certainly competition is everywhere and people in all fields have that desire to be better than "the other guys." I would suggest that perhaps competition over limited resources is the only type of "war" that can be justified if not in a moral sense than as a necessity. I still don't like people fighting as much as I like people working together. One gives me shame for humanity, the other pride.

 

[Wildrow12]

I would suggest that perhaps competition over limited resources is the only type of "war" that can be justified if not in a moral sense than as a necessity. I still don't like people fighting as much as I like people working together. One gives me shame for humanity, the other pride.

Yes, but I humbly suggest the following?: ultimately 'resource' can be anything that offers a tangible benefit to those who possess it: Land, Political Influence, Wealth, A Giant Mullet Wig (So That You Can Call Yourself Zap Rowsdower), etc. In that case, humans will forever be locked in conflict. As it was since the dawn of our species, we have forever fought over limited resources. Ultimately, this is what war is. Unless we can solve this need for resources, the last drop of fuel used on earth will be burned by a battle tank.

I too dream of a day where human brotherhood/sisterhood will find the answer. I too dream of a day where an idealistic soul like yours will be able to link arms with others like it irregardless of race, religion, creed, or political ideology and strive towards a better world. I only pray that there will be someone left alive to make it to that glorious day.

 

[Velvo]

If I may quote Carl Sagan, "Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies you will not find another."

Bah, I can find dozens within 50m.

Yeah, but outside 1,000,000m (not all that far away)?

What? Plenty of people more than 1000km away... Most people, in my case.

Bah, so I forgot a zero. Metrics isn't my native measuring unit (a million miles would have been plenty). Besides, I mean linear distance, not curved, Earth-relative distance. You'd never get off the planet if you stayed Earth-relative.

 

[Velvo]

I would suggest that perhaps competition over limited resources is the only type of "war" that can be justified if not in a moral sense than as a necessity. I still don't like people fighting as much as I like people working together. One gives me shame for humanity, the other pride.

Yes, but I humbly suggest the following?: ultimately 'resource' can be anything that offers a tangible benefit to those who possess it: Land, Political Influence, Wealth, A Giant Mullet Wig (So That You Can Call Yourself Zap Rowsdower), etc. In that case, humans will forever be locked in conflict. As it was since the dawn of our species, we have forever fought over limited resources. Ultimately, this is what war is. Unless we can solve this need for resources, the last drop of fuel used on earth will be burned by a battle tank.

I too dream of a day where human brotherhood/sisterhood will find the answer. I too dream of a day where an idealistic soul like yours will be able to link arms with others like it irregardless of race, religion, creed, or political ideology and strive towards a better world. I only pray that there will be someone left alive to make it to that glorious day.

We can only hope that fusion technology starts becoming economically viable. The first time anyone will get more energy out than they put into a fusion reaction happens in the UK this year! Another one in France in 2026 or something, only continuous fusion! I hope someone finds out how to harvest it effectively, cause that would be cause for rejoice!

I'm telling you, once fusion power gets its legs under it, there will be no stopping us, either from becoming a totalitarian regime spanning the globe, or a peaceful utopia. We'll just have to see which bit of human nature comes out on top. Just a wild prediction.