Nationalism and Nazis. Help me explain the following conundrum

SL33TBL1ND

Elite Member
Nov 9, 2008
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Cowabungaa said:
Hello there fellow Escapees, I thought this wasn't political enough to warrant placement in that sub-forum. My apologies if I was wrong.

Anyway, on with what I want to say. A while ago I had a discussions with someone regarding nationalism and why I didn't get it. In the end, the one I discussed it with explained it as "pride by proxy" and with that it pretty much ended, I wouldn't get a clearer explanation.

On to the next discussion, it went about Germany and how some current-day Germans still feel ashamed about what the Nazis did in WW2. There was quickly a consensus about this in that topic; it's silly to feel ashamed for what other people did in the past, modern-day Germans have done nothing wrong and have nothing to feel ashamed about.

And now to tie those things together and what I'm confused about. Logically, pride and shame are linked together. They're both the same kind of emotion, pride being the positive end, shame being the negative. However, "pride by proxy" (nationalism being one example of that) is often considered as being a good thing while "shame by proxy" (like what some Germans still feel for the Nazis) is condemned.

And like that, logically, this distinction does not make sense. I agree that it's silly to feel ashamed for what the Nazis did. Most modern-day Germans have no affiliation with the Nazis and cannot be blamed for what they did 60 years ago. However, the exact same reasoning can be applied to nationalism; say, a modern-day Frenchman has no affiliation with the 18th century revolutionaries that sparked the French Revolution, so there is no ground to feel pride in their achievements (just as an example, mind you).

Pretty much the same thing can be seen with the upcoming football World Cup competition. I overheard my dad talking how 'we', as if we're all playing football, have a pretty good chance of doing well, but when the Dutch national team looses people around here always say "they lost", as if that made up affiliation with people they don't know is suddenly gone, there's no consistency. Can this be called hypocritical or just plain stupid?

In short: "pride by proxy" is looked up at, "shame by proxy" is looked down upon but the reasoning why shame is silly also applies to pride, but it's apparently not accepted for pride. And this illogical behaviour makes me go:

So what's up with it? Is this simply one of the silly things of humanity, or am I missing something?

DO NOTE:
I am not against something here, or disagreeing with something. I just don't understand that leeching on other people's achievements. Second-hand pride, if you will. Why would someone want to do that? Is it compensation for not having done anything yourself to be proud about? I'm a bit confused, that's all.
Godwin's Law (http://xkcd.com/261/) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)

/thread
 

Wildrow12

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Mar 1, 2009
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Velvo said:
Wildrow12 said:
Velvo said:
I would suggest that perhaps competition over limited resources is the only type of "war" that can be justified if not in a moral sense than as a necessity. I still don't like people fighting as much as I like people working together. One gives me shame for humanity, the other pride.
Yes, but I humbly suggest the following?: ultimately 'resource' can be anything that offers a tangible benefit to those who possess it: Land, Political Influence, Wealth, A Giant Mullet Wig (So That You Can Call Yourself Zap Rowsdower), etc. In that case, humans will forever be locked in conflict. As it was since the dawn of our species, we have forever fought over limited resources. Ultimately, this is what war is. Unless we can solve this need for resources, the last drop of fuel used on earth will be burned by a battle tank.

I too dream of a day where human brotherhood/sisterhood will find the answer. I too dream of a day where an idealistic soul like yours will be able to link arms with others like it irregardless of race, religion, creed, or political ideology and strive towards a better world. I only pray that there will be someone left alive to make it to that glorious day.
We can only hope that fusion technology starts becoming economically viable. The first time anyone will get more energy out than they put into a fusion reaction happens in the UK this year! :D Another one in France in 2026 or something, only continuous fusion! I hope someone finds out how to harvest it effectively, cause that would be cause for rejoice!

I'm telling you, once fusion power gets its legs under it, there will be no stopping us, either from becoming a totalitarian regime spanning the globe, or a peaceful utopia. We'll just have to see which bit of human nature comes out on top. Just a wild prediction. :D
I agree wholeheartedly.

 

Revolutionary

Pub Club Am Broken
May 30, 2009
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hyperhammy said:
I from Germany. NOBODY is ashamed of what THEY did. Rant: Not every German is a NAZI! I spent a couple years and everybody asked me if I'm a nazi, not Cool! /Rant
We just learn about it and regret it because it was a sad time. Just like you Americans are going to regret invading Afghanistan.
OH Snap! didnt see that coming. NIIICE!
 

hyperhammy

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Jan 4, 2010
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Shycte said:
Demented Teddy said:
Shycte said:
hyperhammy said:
I from Germany. NOBODY is ashamed of what THEY did. Rant: Not every German is a NAZI! I spent a couple years and everybody asked me if I'm a nazi, not Cool! /Rant
We just learn about it and regret it because it was a sad time. Just like you Americans are going to regret invading Afghanistan.
Then go ahead and deny the holocaust.

See if your country still feels shame.
He doesn't feel responsible for the holocaust, that does not mean he fucking denies it!
Most Germans were not even around back then.

The Germans didn't even know they were being killed off, they thought they were being shipped out of the country, even then a lot of Germans still wanted the Nazis out, they were just too frightened!

So shut up and think before making such stupid and offensive comments!
Jesus dude, chill out. I'm not saying that HE denies the holocaust.

If you were to speak about this with atleast a hint of credibility you would know that denying the holocaust in Germany is illegal. Thus, the country still feels shame.

Maybe you are the one who needs to think? Hmmm?...
You're right, it is illegal to denie the holocaust, but not because we are ashamed of it. It's because it was a freaking slaughtering. It was against everything we ever believed in, and it broke almost every human rights law known to man kind.
 

Shycte

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Mar 10, 2009
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hyperhammy said:
Shycte said:
Demented Teddy said:
Shycte said:
hyperhammy said:
I from Germany. NOBODY is ashamed of what THEY did. Rant: Not every German is a NAZI! I spent a couple years and everybody asked me if I'm a nazi, not Cool! /Rant
We just learn about it and regret it because it was a sad time. Just like you Americans are going to regret invading Afghanistan.
Then go ahead and deny the holocaust.

See if your country still feels shame.
He doesn't feel responsible for the holocaust, that does not mean he fucking denies it!
Most Germans were not even around back then.

The Germans didn't even know they were being killed off, they thought they were being shipped out of the country, even then a lot of Germans still wanted the Nazis out, they were just too frightened!

So shut up and think before making such stupid and offensive comments!
Jesus dude, chill out. I'm not saying that HE denies the holocaust.

If you were to speak about this with atleast a hint of credibility you would know that denying the holocaust in Germany is illegal. Thus, the country still feels shame.

Maybe you are the one who needs to think? Hmmm?...
You're right, it is illegal to denie the holocaust, but not because we are ashamed of it. It's because it was a freaking slaughtering. It was against everything we ever believed in, and it broke almost every human rights law known to man kind.
It was indeed a "freakin slaughtering". But I still beileve that the fact that it is illegal to deny shows signs of shame. I do not hold the modern German soceity guilty for the crimes commited during the Third Reich, just like I don't hold modern Turkey resposibile for the massacre of armenians commited by the ottoman empire. But Turkey denies this crime, and for me that is all the proof I need to say that the are ashamed. Just like Germany are, and I can understand why you ould feel like way, So you do everything within your power to show the world that you've taken distance from Nazi-Germany by going so far that you're beginning to harass freedom of speech, even if just by a little.

Just something to think bout'.